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White Crane Feather

Shamanic initiation crisis or it's counter pa

274 posts in this topic

So there are people out there looking for some answers to their experiences I might be able to help or maby u can add to my own knowledge. I found thus article read it and let's talk.

Despite decades of attempts to pigeonhole them, shamans simply do not slip neatly into traditional psychiatric categories. Much has been made of the initiation crisis, and yet what is most important is not the crisis itself but what comes out of it. For the shaman "is not only a sick man" said Eliade, "he is a sick man who has been cured, who has succeeded in curing himself."(Eliade, 1964) From this perspective "shamanism is not a disease but being healed from disease."(Ackerknecht, 1943)

In fact, shamans are often the most functional members of their community, and according to Eliade "show proof of a more than normal nervous constitution."(Eliade, 1964) They can display remarkable energy and stamina, unusual levels of concentration, high intelligence, leadership skills, and a grasp of complex myths and rituals.(Eliade, 1964; Reichel-Dolmataoff, 1987; Rogers, 1982) What can we make of this curious combination of initial disturbance and subsequent health? Are there any data and diagnoses that can encompass both the initial disturbance and the subsequent recovery?

DISTURBANCE AS DEVELOPMENT

The answer is clearly yes. Shamans are not alone in becoming better after a psychological disturbance. Over 2,000 years ago Socrates declared that "our greatest blessings come to us by way of madness, provided the madness is given us by divine gift." (Lukoff, 1985) More recently the eminent psychiatrist Karl Menninger observed that "some patients have a mental illness and then they get weller! I mean they get better than they ever were....This is an extraordinary and little realized truth."(Lukoff, 1985)

Fortunately, it is becoming better recognized. Responses to stress can span a spectrum from regression to growth. This spectrum extends from pathological regression (at the negative extreme) to resilience (continued normal functioning) and even to posttraumatic growth (also known as stress-related growth, positive adaptation, and thriving).(Linley & Joseph, 2005)

Likewise, some psychological disturbances can function as growth experiences that somehow result in greater psychological or spiritual wellbeing. These disturbances shed new light on shamanic initiation crises.

The general process is one of temporary psychological disturbance followed by resolution and repair to a new and higher level of functioning. What seemed at the time to be purely a crisis of disturbance and disease can now be seen as a stage of development and growth. Each of the many names given to such crises illuminates a different facet of the process. These names include "positive disintegration," "regenerative processes," "renewal," "creative illness" and "resilience."(Dabrowski, 1964; Ellenberger, 1970; Flach, 1988; Pelleteir & Garfield, 1976; Perry, 1986)

Some psychological crises include mystical or transpersonal experiences. These have been described as "mystical experiences with psychotic features," "divine illnesses," "metanoiac voyages," "visionary states," "spiritual emergencies" and "transpersonal crises."(Grof & Grof, 1986; Grof & Grof, 1990; Grof & Grof, 1989; Laing, 1972; Lukoff, 1985) What these names make clear is that psychological disturbances may sometimes be followed by significant growth. Consequently, we can now recognize some psychological disturbances as developmental crises.

Developmental Crises

Developmental crises are periods of psychological stress that accompany turning points in our lives. They may be marked by considerable psychological turmoil, sometimes even of life threatening proportions. These transitions can occur spontaneously, as in adolescent and mid-life crises, or can be induced by growth-accelerating techniques such as psychotherapy and meditation.

These crises occur because psychological growth rarely proceeds smoothly. Rather, growth is usually marked by transition periods of confusion and questioning, or in extreme cases, disorganization and despair. The twin lions that guard the gates of Eastern temples are said to represent confusion and paradox, and anyone who seeks wisdom must be willing to pass through both.

Even clarity can become a trap. We cling to an old familiar understanding of ourselves and the world because it saves us from having to face the ever-changing novelty and uncertainty of life. We cling to the familiar, not knowing that mystery is a necessary prelude to the dawning of wisdom. As Castaneda succinctly put it, clarity "dispels fear, but also blinds" and the person who holds fast to it no longer learns.(Castaneda, 1969)

If these crises are successfully negotiated, then the turmoil may turn out to be the means by which constricting, outdated life patterns are cast off. Old beliefs and goals may be released, and new more life-affirming modes adopted. In short, psychological pain and confusion can be symptoms of either disease or development.

Developmental crises can occur spontaneously as a result of inner forces that compel growth whether the individual wants it or not. The mind is designed to grow, and the drive powering that growth has been variously described as an actualizing tendency (Carl Rogers), individuation urge (Carl Jung), holotropism (Stan Grof), equilibration (Jean Piaget) or eros (Ken Wilber). The result is a dynamic tension between these forces of growth and the seductiveness of stagnation, between the pull of transcendence and the inertia of the familiar. The Jungian psychiatrist, John Perry observed that:

spirit [is] constantly striving for release from its entrapment in routine or conventional mental structures. Spiritual work is the attempt to liberate this dynamic energy, which must break free of its suffocation in old forms….

if this work of releasing spirit becomes imperative but is not undertaken voluntarily with knowledge of the goal and with considerable effort, then the psyche is apt to take over and overwhelm the conscious personality…. The individuating psyche abhors stasis as nature abhors a vacuum.(Perry, 1986)

In other words, the psyche may be unwilling to risk the unhappiness that Abraham Maslow warned against when he said "if you deliberately plan to be less than you are capable of being, then I warn you that you will be deeply unhappy for the rest of your life."(Maslow, 1971) Rather than tolerate stagnation, the psyche may willfully create crises that force development.(Perry, 1986)

Such is the case with shamans. Many are not at all pleased by the prospect of their new profession, and resist the initial signs with all their might. According to Devereux, "Among the Sedang Moi, a person who receives the 'call' may even drink his own urine, in the hope that this act will so depreciate him in the sight of his divine sponsors that they will take back the power they had given him."(Devereux, 2001) However, resistance is no easy matter, and many tribal myths hold that the person who resists the call will sicken, go mad, or die.

When the forces of growth overwhelm the forces of inertia then a developmental transition or crisis occurs. The symptoms of this crisis vary depending upon the individual's personality and maturity, and can range from regressive pathology at one extreme to transpersonal or spiritual concerns at the other.(Wilber, Engler, & Brown, in press) These transpersonal crises, which are also called spiritual emergencies or spiritual emergences(Grof & Grof, 1986; Grof & Grof, 1990; Grof & Grof, 1989) seem close to, and helpful in understanding, some shamanic initiation crises.

THE VARIETIES OF SPIRITUAL EMERGENCIES

Although they have been described for centuries as complications of spiritual practices, the careful study of spiritual emergencies has only just begun. Varieties particularly relevant to shamanism and its initiation crises include "mystical experiences with psychotic features," "shamanic journeys," "possession," "renewal," "kundalini" and "psychic opening."

Mystical experience with psychotic features and "psychotic disorder with mystical features" are terms used to describe psychoses in which significant mystical experiences occur.(Lukoff, 1985) The episodes are usually short lived and have a better prognosis than other psychoses. This curious combination of mystical and psychotic is consistent with the bizarre behavior and mystical experiences of some shamanic crises.

Shamanic journey emergencies echo themes commonly encountered in both shamanic initiations and journeys. As Christina and Stan Grof observe:

Transpersonal crises of this type bear a deep resemblance to what the anthropologists have described as the shamanic or initiatory illness….In the experiences of individuals whose transpersonal crises have strong shamanic features, there is great emphasis on physical suffering and encounter with death followed by rebirth and elements of ascent or magical flight. They also typically sense a special connection with the elements of nature and experience communication with animals or animal spirits. It is also not unusual to feel an upsurge of extraordinary powers and impulses to heal….Like the initiatory crisis, the transpersonal episodes of a shamanic type, if properly supported, can lead to good adjustment and superior functioning.(Grof & Grof, 1986)

The striking similarity of these contemporary crises to classic shamanic experiences suggests that initiatory crises reflect a deep psychological process, not limited to particular cultures or times. This process seems capable of exploding from the depths of the psyche in contemporary Westerners surrounded by cars and computers as well as in ancient shamans in tepees and igloos. Clearly some deep, perhaps archetypal, pattern is being played out here, and the Grof's therefore conclude that "Individuals whose spiritual crises follows this pattern are thus involved in an ancient process that touches the deepest foundations of the psyche."(Grof & Grof, 1986) We may therefore have much to learn from ancient shamanic wisdom about the appropriate handling of these crises.

Experiences of possession have been described throughout history and can constitute a major feature of shamanic crises. Individuals experience being taken over by inner forces or beings beyond their control. Sometimes these forces feel so alien and malevolent as to seem literally demonic, and victims may fear that they are engaged in a desperate battle for their life and sanity. So dramatic are these experiences that even some contemporary psychiatrists, most notably Scot Peck, have concluded that demonic forces are to blame.(Peck, 1983) However, most health professionals assume that possession is an expression of powerful psychological dynamics that can be treated therapeutically. Indeed, Christina and Stan Grof claim that "with good support, experiences of this kind can be extremely liberating and therapeutic."(Grof & Grof, 1986)

John Perry described the renewal process as an experience of destruction followed by regeneration. Individuals undergoing it are overwhelmed by images in which they see both themselves and the world being destroyed. Yet this destruction is not the end but a prelude to rebirth and regeneration. Out of the images of ruin comes a sense of personal renewal and world regeneration. Images of death and rebirth are of course common in the shamanic crisis.

This renewal process may entail considerable stress and even reach psychotic proportions. Psychiatrists rarely distinguish this particular process from other psychoses and usually suppress them all with drugs. However John Perry claims:

if a person undergoing this turmoil is given love, understanding and encouragement, the spiritual crisis soon resolves itself without the need for interruption by suppressive medication. The most fragmented "thought disorder" can become quite coherent and orderly within a short time if someone is present to respond to it with compassion. Such a relationship is far better than a tranquilizer in most instances.(Perry, 1986)

The fundamental change in this "renewal process" is thought to be a dissolution of the old self-image and its replacement with a new more appropriate one.

Kundalini awakening has been most fully described in the yogic tradition of India, where kundalini is the creative energy of the universe. Humans partake of this energy, but it usually lies dormant and unrecognized. Under the prodding of spiritual practice, or occasionally spontaneously, the kundalini can be aroused and unleash enormous, even overwhelming, physical and psychological energy.

The result is a complex array of intense physical, psychological, and spiritual experiences that can be ecstatic or terrifying. These can manifest physically as tremors and spasms, or psychologically as intense emotions, agitation, energy, lights and vivid imagery. Kundalini could account for the unusual symptoms and intense agitation of some shamanic crises. Kundalini crises are now occurring more frequently in the West as more people begin intensive meditative and yogic practices.

The last type of spiritual emergency is that of psychic opening. Here individuals feel they have suddenly become capable, sometimes quite against their will, of one or more psychic abilities. These can include out-of-body experiences, visions, and mediumship or channeling—all common experiences among shamans. Such people may encounter significant difficulties, feel overwhelmed, and fear for their sanity. We will explore the question of the validity of psychic phenomena in a later chapter.

These are the forms of spiritual emergency most relevant to shamanic initiation crises. An important implication is that there may be several kinds of shamanic crises, and future descriptions and diagnoses will need to be more nuanced.

DIAGNOSIS AND TREATMENT

Clearly spiritual practices and awakenings (to use religious terms), can revive and exacerbate unresolved conflicts. This is not necessarily bad since the process can bring to the surface issues and difficulties requiring attention, and result in considerable healing and personality integration.(Grof & Grof, 1990)

Two major of diagnostic errors can be made. One is reductionistic: to fail to recognize a spiritual emergency and reduce it to pure pathology. The other is "elevationistic:" to overlook a pathological process such as schizophrenia and elevate it to a spiritual emergency. The task is complicated by the existence of hybrid forms in which both mystical and pathological experiences coexist.(Lukoff, 1985)

If correctly diagnosed and appropriately supported, then spiritual emergencies can be valuable growth experiences; hence their other name of "spiritual emergences." Several factors are helpful. The first is a trusting relationship where the patient feels cared for and safe. The second is a positive attitude in which the patient expects that the process will prove valuable and healing.(McGashan & Carpenter, 1981) Third, opening to and talking about the experience can be helpful, and can be facilitated by psychotherapy.(Grof & Grof, 1989)

Shamans discovered these principles long ago. Their crises involve symptoms and behaviors that appear bizarre, even pathological. However, the outcome may be positive when the shaman-to-be is recognized as such by the tribe, and then receives culturally appropriate support, guidance, and "therapy." This support includes a relationship with an experienced shaman, a positive reinterpretation of the disturbance as part of a shamanic awakening, and practices that enable the novice to work with the emerging experiences. With this assistance, the initiate may not only recover but may emerge stronger and able to help others. In short, shamanic crises and contemporary spiritual emergencies seem to be related, difficult, but potentially valuable maturation crises. Shamanic cultures have long provided the types of support that contemporary therapists are now rediscovering.

Reference List

Ackerknecht, E. (1943). Psychopathology, primitive medicine, and primitive culture. Bulletin of the History of Medicine, 14, 30-67.

Barrett, W. (1962). Irrational man: A study in existential philosophy. New York: Doubleday/Anchor.

Castaneda, C. (1969). The teachings of Don Juan: A Yagui way of knowledge. New York: Ballantine.

Dabrowski, K. (1964). Positive disintegration. Boston: Little Brown.

Devereux, G. (1956/2001). The Shaman is mentally deranged. In J.Narby & F.Huxley (Eds.), Shamans through time: 500 years on the path of knowledge (pp. 119-120). New York: Jeremy P. Tarcher/Penguin. (Original work published 1956).

Eliade, M. (1964). Shamanism: Archaic techniques of ecstasy (W.Trask, Trans.). Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press.

Ellenberger, H. (1970). The discovery of the unconscious. New York: Basic Books.

Flach, F. (1988). Resiliance. New York: Ballantine.

Grof, C. & Grof, S. (1986). Spiritual emergency: The understanding and treatment of transpersonal crises. ReVision, 8(2), 7-20.

Grof, C. & Grof, S. (1990). The stormy search for self: Understanding spiritual emergence. Los Angeles: J. Tarcher.

Grof, S. & Grof, C. (Eds.). (1989). Spiritual emergency: When personal transformation becomes a crisis. Los Angeles: J. Tarcher.

Laing, R. (1972). Metanoia: Some experiences at Kingsley Hall, London. In H.Ruitenbeck (Ed.), Going crazy (pp. 11-21). New York: Bantam.

Linley, P. & Joseph, S. (2005). The human capacity for growth through adversity. American Psychologist, 60(3), 262-264.

Lukoff, D. (1985). The diagnosis of mystical experiences with psychotic features. Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 17, 123-153.

Maslow, A. (1971). The farther reaches of human nature. New York: Viking.

McGashan, T. & Carpenter, W. (1981). Does attitude toward psychosis relate to outcome? American Journal of Psychiatry, 138, 797-801.

Peck, M. S. (1983). People of the lie: The hope for healing human evil. New York: Simon & Schuster.

Pelleteir, K. & Garfield, C. (1976). Consciousness: East and West. New York: Harper and Row.

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Posted (edited)

Welcome to UM Seeker79.... what does not kill you can make you stronger but then again taking such a path can be dangerous.

Edited by Virtual Particle

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Yes. Danger is life and status quoe is death. We are not here to follow a mundane path. We are here to persue personal greatness.

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Posted (edited)

Yes. Danger is life and status quoe is death. We are not here to follow a mundane path. We are here to persue personal greatness.

I also understand where you are coming from friend...I can assure you I do not follow a mundane path. As a Taino Indian my training started at 4 years old....clearly our membership is much older.

Caribbean Indians

PS: It seems many are in there 20's

Edited by Virtual Particle

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WOW! There's a lot of truth in this article. This is real good post Seeker. Maybe some of the psuedo-shaman here will read it and understand they're clueless. :tu:

Lapiche

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:) my training started early too but I was indoctrinated into ..... Well u know.... The norm. It caught up to me in my late twenties. And in my early thirties. I've come to terms with it all. And I want to teach the others who are turning to drugs etc..... Thank u. Your words are another afirmation.

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WOW! There's a lot of truth in this article. This is real good post Seeker. Maybe some of the psuedo-shaman here will read it and understand they're clueless. :tu:

Lapiche

As I mentioned before some tribes use drugs, others do some really serious things that can result in death...Like instead of bungee jumping of a bridge you go for the perfect dive because otherwise you will not survive.

A Shaman can do this without practice the very first time.

Much of the membership of this forum has not had the advantages of living in a Tribe.....simply going into denial over that does not help the discussion...

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:) my training started early too but I was indoctrinated into ..... Well u know.... The norm. It caught up to me in my late twenties. And in my early thirties. I've come to terms with it all. And I want to teach the others who are turning to drugs etc..... Thank u. Your words are another afirmation.

Of what Tribe??

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No brother. I am charokee but seperated from traditional teachings in this world. We are truely trained by the other world. That is is what has been training me. I have found persued traditional teachings quite on my own. Out of instinct, intuition, etc. I am a student-- teacher that is all. My liniage is there. But that is bull ****. Everyone has potential, we are all destined to experience the true reality.,,,,,,,,,., if not now then when we die. I am a native american..., but Indians from India, monks from tibet, christan saints, true initiated shamens, some Indian (from India) gurus, and Chinese Japanese mystics. Are all on the path. No one is greater than the other because even the shamen is kept from ultimate truth, so the sensitive have to make due.

Cultural identity is irelevent. Brother hood is close.

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No brother. I am charokee but seperated from traditional teachings in this world. We are truely trained by the other world. That is is what has been training me. I have found persued traditional teachings quite on my own. Out of instinct, intuition, etc. I am a student-- teacher that is all. My liniage is there. But that is bull ****. Everyone has potential, we are all destined to experience the true reality.,,,,,,,,,., if not now then when we die. I am a native american..., but Indians from India, monks from tibet, christan saints, true initiated shamens, some Indian (from India) gurus, and Chinese Japanese mystics. Are all on the path. No one is greater than the other because even the shamen is kept from ultimate truth, so the sensitive have to make due.

Cultural identity is irelevent. Brother hood is close.

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No brother. I am charokee but seperated from traditional teachings in this world. We are truely trained by the other world. That is is what has been training me. I have found persued traditional teachings quite on my own. Out of instinct, intuition, etc. I am a student-- teacher that is all. My liniage is there. But that is bull ****. Everyone has potential, we are all destined to experience the true reality.,,,,,,,,,., if not now then when we die. I am a native american..., but Indians from India, monks from tibet, christan saints, true initiated shamens, some Indian (from India) gurus, and Chinese Japanese mystics. Are all on the path. No one is greater than the other because even the shamen is kept from ultimate truth, so the sensitive have to make due.

Cultural identity is irelevent. Brother hood is close.

The Cherokee (ᏣᎳᎩ) are a Native American people historically settled in the Southeastern United States (principally Georgia, the Carolinas and Eastern Tennessee). Linguistically, they are part of the Iroquoian-language family. In the 19th century, historians and ethnographers recorded their oral tradition that told of the tribe having migrated south in ancient times from the Great Lakes region, where other Iroquoian-speaking peoples were located.[4]

In the 19th century, white settlers in the United States called the Cherokees one of the "Five Civilized Tribes", because they had assimilated numerous cultural and technological practices of European-American settlers. According to the 2000 U.S. Census, the Cherokee Nation has more than 300,000 members, the largest of the 563 federally recognized Native American tribes in the United States.[5]

Of the three federally recognized Cherokee tribes, the Cherokee Nation and the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians have headquarters in Tahlequah, Oklahoma. They were forcibly relocated there in the 1830s. The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians is located in Cherokee, North Carolina.

Source

Cherokee Nation

Your system of governing was applied when the United States was formed (Democracy)....culturally, yours is one of the more significant in the world. Members of Tribes were assigned by temperament...Yours is amongst the more peaceful tribes of the Earth like in the Tibetans.

The majority of our membership in this forum has been demonized for there experience's, compared to the way they would be treated, if they had been raised in a tribe...and as you seem to be stating, you have been through some of that as well....

Edited by Virtual Particle

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No brother. I am charokee

CNO, EBC or UKB??? I am 'Nanticoke-Lenape' of the 'Delaware Confederation' and one of our member tribes the 'Delaware of Oklahoma' lives in CNO territory.

and no Virtual Particle, the Cherokees were far from peaceful. They just adopted European ways to try to save themselves from colonialism. They were slavers and the last Confederates to surrender to the North.

Lapiche

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Wow my post opened a can of woopass. Forget your humansism and adopt brotherhood reguardless. Of history we are only subject to ourselves and god,.. The great spirit of all...,,,, brother hood people....., brother hood.......

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CNO, EBC or UKB??? I am 'Nanticoke-Lenape' of the 'Delaware Confederation' and one of our member tribes the 'Delaware of Oklahoma' lives in CNO territory.

and no Virtual Particle, the Cherokees were far from peaceful. They just adopted European ways to try to save themselves from colonialism. They were slavers and the last Confederates to surrender to the North.

Lapiche

Caribbean Indians responded to Enemy Incursions on occasion, by hanging them from there personal parts.

Feel free to veryfy that.

Edited by Virtual Particle

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Sorry, crossed wires!

I wasn't talking about people who had the "Experience". I'm guiding a guy right now who is white. I was talking about people who decide their favorite animal is their "spirit guide" paint it on a drum, and become a "shaman". You can't decide to become a "spirit person". It's decided for you.

The Spanish were the most brutal. The Dutch came in second. The French and Swedes the least. With the English it was by religion. The Catholics the worst the Quakers the least.

My tribe hammered the Dutch but we were peaceful with the Swedes and Quakers because of fair treatment.

Lapiche

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Sorry, crossed wires!

I wasn't talking about people who had the "Experience". I'm guiding a guy right now who is white. I was talking about people who decide their favorite animal is their "spirit guide" paint it on a drum, and become a "shaman". You can't decide to become a "spirit person". It's decided for you.

The Spanish were the most brutal. The Dutch came in second. The French and Swedes the least. With the English it was by religion. The Catholics the worst the Quakers the least.

My tribe hammered the Dutch but we were peaceful with the Swedes and Quakers because of fair treatment.

Lapiche

There is a place in Puerto Rico it is in the mountains but still close enough to the mainland for people to visit...At first site it seems clear someone blew a hole in to shear rock about 70 feet high. The hole is big enough to drive a bus through it. Beyond the hole is a small valley maybe about 50 acres...It is kept like a golf course but the rule is one does not walk on the grass...Near the hole in the wall is what looks like a light house but it is only 40 ft high...the only purpose it would serve was to keep an eye on anything going on the in the valley.

My great,great,great grandfather showed the Hispanics what the Spanish were doing there....Taino bodies were essentially used as fertilizer...but we were not extinguished....There was the battle at El Morro after that and the Spanish lost....eventually Puerto Rico became a part of the US.

I am considered to have something in common with him and others....as a child I remembered something that happened well before I was born.

Edited by Virtual Particle

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There is a place in Puerto Rico it is in the mountains but still close enough to the mainland for people to visit...At first site it seems clear someone blew a hole in to shear rock about 70 feet high. The hole is big enough to drive a bus through it. Beyond the hole is a small valley maybe about 50 acres...It is kept like a golf course but the rule is one does not walk on the grass...Near the hole in the wall is what looks like a light house but it is only 40 ft high...the only purpose it would serve was to keep an eye on anything going on the in the valley.

My great,great,great grandfather showed the Hispanics what the Spanish were doing there....Taino bodies were essentially used as fertilizer...but we were not extinguished....There was the battle at El Morro after that and the Spanish lost....eventually Puerto Rico became a part of the US.

I am considered to have something in common with him and others....

The Arawak-Taino of Vineland ( and no not Peter Torres' Santeria creeps) are allies of my people. Many have married Nanticokes. I know a lot of your history. You were peaceful traders who traveled as far as South Carolina and had a trading port where Savannah, Georgia is now. The Calusa of Florida were also Taino, but now they live in Cuba.

Lapiche

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The Arawak-Taino of Vineland ( and no not Peter Torres' Santeria creeps) are allies of my people. Many have married Nanticokes. I know a lot of your history. You were peaceful traders who traveled as far as South Carolina and had a trading port where Savannah, Georgia is now. The Calusa of Florida were also Taino, but now they live in Cuba.

Lapiche

I was taught that before we were called Arawak we were a part of an empire.....fires burned around what today is called the Gulf of Mexico as if it were one fire because it was one tribe.

I remebered what happed to them...

PS:The back of the head of a Cobra and the back of a Dove made of a metal or wood as a part of the Headdress

Edited by Virtual Particle

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U don't remember ****...... Can I cancel my post.

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Just "report" it an try not to do that to much :yes: but it is understood.

I remember "That One," in Apache territory as well....that was abour 33,000 years ago.

I cannot say what I remembered in this forum in relation to the reason why I was trained..... as at some point in time in the future it may be relevant to a decendant of mine.

Edited by Virtual Particle

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I'm not a spiritual leader or teacher. I have to handle artifacts and be able to determine whether or not they were filched from a grave or used for spiritual purposes. I have to have good protection to do it because some things carry a "nastiness" that could spread or hurt someone, including myself.

That's why I generally avoid this section. I see too many "children playing with power tools".

My tribe has a law against discussing spirituality. Especially on the web. But I overstepped my bounds and "tied up" some people who were "in the toolbox" so I'm "on the list" anyway.

For years books said that Florida and the Gulf had "unknown" tribes or only Seminoles. The Taino genocide was "safely forgotten". I know all about it though.

Lapiche

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I'm not a spiritual leader or teacher. I have to handle artifacts and be able to determine whether or not they were filched from a grave or used for spiritual purposes. I have to have good protection to do it because some things carry a "nastiness" that could spread or hurt someone, including myself.

That's why I generally avoid this section. I see too many "children playing with power tools".

My tribe has a law against discussing spirituality. Especially on the web. But I overstepped my bounds and "tied up" some people who were "in the toolbox" so I'm "on the list" anyway.

For years books said that Florida and the Gulf had "unknown" tribes or only Seminoles. The Taino genocide was "safely forgotten". I know all about it though.

Lapiche

We survived and that is what counts....When Quetzalcoatl, "symbolically" left Mexico he could very well have traveled to the Caribean and there are Ball-courts in Puerto Rico

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Hmmmmm all natives sufered genocide, non are special........look you folks that are bitter from the genocide.... I am to..... It's over...... The shamanic initiated are the chosen to reclaime the power for all of humanity..... That iswhat this post is about. You who care but are bitter are lost. The future belongs to reconciliation. And those who are initiate but apart of now.... Embrace them.

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Hmmmmm all natives sufered genocide, non are special........look you folks that are bitter from the genocide.... I am to..... It's over...... The shamanic initiated are the chosen to reclaime the power for all of humanity..... That iswhat this post is about. You who care but are bitter are lost. The future belongs to reconciliation. And those who are initiate but apart of now.... Embrace them.

I agree in that context completely brother...we are just getting acquainted and Piney and I have had some differneces.

Edited by Virtual Particle

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Shamanism can be waking to the conclusion that one has already been to Heaven...in a manner of speaking.

Any thoughts?

Edited by Virtual Particle

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