The Trojan War

[Flashbangwollap]

The ships of the Sea Peoples:

To me the twin beaked ships appear distinct from almost all Mediterranean ships of the 1200 BC. period.

There are only two other types which come close to the depictions of the Sea Peoples ships on the Temple walls of Medinet Habu.

One is the Skyros shard or fragment painting which has the twin beaks of birds at each end but it also has a curved bow and stern. I concede that the curve could be just artistic licence.

Next there are a few Syro Canaanite cargo vessels, but I must add that it's not yet clear to me whether merchant ships had a dual use. The introduction of the ram bow however is clearly a statement of intended use. I have not found any clear indication to me which came first the cargo type or the ram and of course with a reduced crew the warship could have carried cargo or booty after a raid. The overall appearance of the cargo vessels is heavily stylised as plainly they would be impossible to sail with such a pronounced rocker. I have posted a link to an artists impression of the cargo vessel before on this thread and so refer to that one if you wish. However the artist has gone for a solid wooden keel and edge on edge planking which might be from a later era. Particularly if the planks are held with tenon joints but is still, with a stretch, within the realms of possibility.

Another oddity to me is the retention of the reversed curved stern and for two reasons. Firstly majority opinion says that these boats were supplemented with a single masted square sail amid ships. Also that they could not sail to windward to any useful degree. I think this is a little demeaning to the sailors of the day since the sails are generally depicted with brailing sheets or ropes to alter the wind-age of the sail. On top of the mast can often be seen a device for the attachment of the stays (Semi standing rigging) and it would be easily apparent that allowing the sail to pivot about the mast would make sailing her far more predictable and much safer. However the bluff stern would make it hard to steer the ship stern first. So cargo ships carrying less crew needed a double ender design far more than a warship which could rely on man power where and if necessary. When in battle and in range of the enemy they were likely drop the sail and rely solely on manpower. And finally there seems to be a good chance that both these types existed together regardless of construction methods. ie. they may have been plank and stitch which is almost identical with the Ferriby boats of Britain.

I would dearly like to tank test the various designs before us. Over the years I have nurtured an eye for a good hull which equates to, if it looks right it generally is. The ships with the heavy rocker being a point in mind and easy for all to notice. However that's none to convenient for the purposes of this thread but I may try a few card models all the same in the future. I will add to this later.

http://books.google....20ships&f=false

Edited December 9, 2010 by Flashbangwollap

[KillCarneyKlansman]

You should find these Old Posts of mine useful.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=103354&st=315

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=103354&st=330

You may wanna contact Doug1o29, he may have some important info since 2007.

[Flashbangwollap]

You should find these Old Posts of mine useful.

http://www.unexplain...c=103354&st=315

http://www.unexplain...c=103354&st=330

You may wanna contact Doug1o29, he may have some important info since 2007.

Thanks for that little Gem KillCarneyKlansman I'm sure there are plenty of folk who will appreciate that.

To me it's worth it just to keep the old adages alive. You learn something new each day.

It's truly remarkable how distorted History can be.

[SlimJim22]

The ships of the Sea Peoples:

To me the twin beaked ships appear distinct from almost all Mediterranean ships of the 1200 BC. period.

There are only two other types which come close to the depictions of the Sea Peoples ships on the Temple walls of Medinet Habu.

One is the Skyros shard or fragment painting which has the twin beaks of birds at each end but it also has a curved bow and stern. I concede that the curve could be just artistic licence.

Next there are a few Syro Canaanite cargo vessels, but I must add that it's not yet clear to me whether merchant ships had a dual use. The introduction of the ram bow however is clearly a statement of intended use. I have not found any clear indication to me which came first the cargo type or the ram and of course with a reduced crew the warship could have carried cargo or booty after a raid. The overall appearance of the cargo vessels is heavily stylised as plainly they would be impossible to sail with such a pronounced rocker. I have posted a link to an artists impression of the cargo vessel before on this thread and so refer to that one if you wish. However the artist has gone for a solid wooden keel and edge on edge planking which might be from a later era. Particularly if the planks are held with tenon joints but is still, with a stretch, within the realms of possibility.

Another oddity to me is the retention of the reversed curved stern and for two reasons. Firstly majority opinion says that these boats were supplemented with a single masted square sail amid ships. Also that they could not sail to windward to any useful degree. I think this is a little demeaning to the sailors of the day since the sails are generally depicted with brailing sheets or ropes to alter the wind-age of the sail. On top of the mast can often be seen a device for the attachment of the stays (Semi standing rigging) and it would be easily apparent that allowing the sail to pivot about the mast would make sailing her far more predictable and much safer. However the bluff stern would make it hard to steer the ship stern first. So cargo ships carrying less crew needed a double ender design far more than a warship which could rely on man power where and if necessary. When in battle and in range of the enemy they were likely drop the sail and rely solely on manpower. And finally there seems to be a good chance that both these types existed together regardless of construction methods. ie. they may have been plank and stitch which is almost identical with the Ferriby boats of Britain.

I would dearly like to tank test the various designs before us. Over the years I have nurtured an eye for a good hull which equates to, if it looks right it generally is. The ships with the heavy rocker being a point in mind and easy for all to notice. However that's none to convenient for the purposes of this thread but I may try a few card models all the same in the future. I will add to this later.

http://books.google....20ships&f=false

This link has some of the best pictures and info of ancient sea vessels. Not many of them look like they could withstand too rough seas. I did notice a slight change in style around 1350bce. I am guessing this was once the Myceneans had conquered the Minoans and put them into some sort of slavery.

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/ships.htm

The largest seagoing sailed merchantmen in the Mediterranean and Gulf during the Bronze Age (c. 3000-1150 BC) were probably not much larger than the ship that wrecked at Uluburun about 20 tons capacity and 16 meters long. A 13th c. letter from Ugarit, long interpreted as indicative of much larger ships, is reinterpreted in the context of available texts, archaeology, and iconography. Available iconographical evidence points toward a 20 meter maximum length, and the evidence of the Uluburun shipwreck only nominally exceeds the maximum size of seagoing ships appearing in Mesopotamian records. Storage jars from shipwrecks, including those found at Uluburun, are used to address problematical aspects of the textual evidence, wherein the capacity of ships is given in volumetric units. Though problematic, all available evidence suggests that reconstructions of Bronze Age trade networks should assume smaller ship capacities.

I would post some pictures but I do not have a photobucket account. Lots of pictures of the bird headed ships. imo they connect the sea peoples with the mainland greeks looking tp spread their influence rather than the various traders of the region. Trade ships go back over a millenium but the war ships originate from 1350bce and after.

The Acheans had already conquered the trade routes around Greece but wanted the ones to the Black Sea too. Before this time the wealth is heavy in Anatolia and the Near East but following the hypothetical destruction of Troy, Greece becomes the dominant force partly due to alliances with other neighbouring nations againt the Anatolians and their allies.

[Flashbangwollap]

This link has some of the best pictures and info of ancient sea vessels. Not many of them look like they could withstand too rough seas. I did notice a slight change in style around 1350bce. I am guessing this was once the Myceneans had conquered the Minoans and put them into some sort of slavery.

http://www.salimbeti...cenei/ships.htm

The largest seagoing sailed merchantmen in the Mediterranean and Gulf during the Bronze Age (c. 3000-1150 BC) were probably not much larger than the ship that wrecked at Uluburun about 20 tons capacity and 16 meters long. A 13th c. letter from Ugarit, long interpreted as indicative of much larger ships, is reinterpreted in the context of available texts, archaeology, and iconography. Available iconographical evidence points toward a 20 meter maximum length, and the evidence of the Uluburun shipwreck only nominally exceeds the maximum size of seagoing ships appearing in Mesopotamian records. Storage jars from shipwrecks, including those found at Uluburun, are used to address problematical aspects of the textual evidence, wherein the capacity of ships is given in volumetric units. Though problematic, all available evidence suggests that reconstructions of Bronze Age trade networks should assume smaller ship capacities.

I would post some pictures but I do not have a photobucket account. Lots of pictures of the bird headed ships. imo they connect the sea peoples with the mainland greeks looking tp spread their influence rather than the various traders of the region. Trade ships go back over a millenium but the war ships originate from 1350bce and after.

The Acheans had already conquered the trade routes around Greece but wanted the ones to the Black Sea too. Before this time the wealth is heavy in Anatolia and the Near East but following the hypothetical destruction of Troy, Greece becomes the dominant force partly due to alliances with other neighbouring nations againt the Anatolians and their allies.

Thanks Jim for the additional info. Me too on the photo front and I have no wish to hack any site. However a single pic would save lengthy explanation.

Also My other post has holes all over having reread it today. At this rate I'll end up all on my own with a cap on my head of the pointy variety. In the mean time I'll just have to keep on trucking.

Just revisiting that sight you posted. Good observations Jim. Also note Jason's ship. In an open water situation, I promise they wouldn't last a day in anything but a gentle breeze. An Atlantic swell plus a small chop would fill that design fast.

This site also contains an attempt at reconstruction of the twin beaked ship. Mmmmm, I not too convinced but picture instead something akin too the Atlantic crossings in rowing boats recently. I think the Sea Peoples ships may well be close to the design of the row boats.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Flashbangwollap

[SlimJim22]

Not sure if I'm going off on an unanted tangent but do let me know if I drift too far from the OP.

The Carians were a mysterious eastern Mediterranean people often associated with the Philistines and with the Phoenicians. The tradition of the Carians was that they, the Lydians, and the Mysians were brother-peoples, descended from three brothers: Car, Lydus, and Mysos. Their reputation as warriors is noted by the fact that King David had both Philistine and Carian bodyguards, the Pleti (a shortened form of Philistine) and the Kari (II Sam. 8:18). At a later time Queen Athaliah, II Kings 11, also had a bodyguard of Cari. The greater fame of the Carians was their reputation as mariners and pirates. The Carians are often mentioned in classical literature. In Egypt, the Mediterranean Sea was known as the Sea of Khar(u). Carians lived in Crete under the name of Leleges and were famous warriors under King Minos of Crete. The Carians had settlements in many parts of the world and left traces in many geographical names containing the syllable "Car," "Cart," or "Keret." The Greek writer, Thucydides noted that the Carians lived on many Aegean islands and joined with the Phoenicians in the great game of piracy. Studies have been made of "Car-" sites all over the world, e.g., Karkar, Carchemish, Car Shalmaneser, and Carthage. After Nebuchadnezzar took Tyre, a remnant of Phoenicians and Carians fled to the west and settled in an earlier colony, Carthage. Homer speaks of barbarously speaking Carians, that is, they did not speak Greek. The script of the Carians may be the same as the still unread Cyprian language or the picture script of Crete, but of course this is only speculation. If some day these scripts are read, we may learn a great deal of ancient times in the eastern Mediterranean (Velikovsky, 1952, p. 198-205; Victoria Institute, 39:90-91).

http://www.creationism.org/vonfange/vonFangeSpadingChap04.htm

I'm wondering if Cercrops could have been of Caran origin. Other notable things the site mentions is the movement of Baal worship into cletic lands as evidenced by Belus and Beltaine and allegedly Baltic and Balkans. The other notable connection it makes is between Basque and ancient Cretans and possibly Minoans as being related to Dravidians.

Decent link on the sea people.

http://ancientneareast.tripod.com/SeaPeoples.html

There seems to be some debate over exactly who comprised the sea peoples but I think it's most likely they were Mycenean Greeks. Apparently in the OT there is a distincyion made between Philisines and Carians but other sources claim they were both sea peoples but of different tribes. It is hard ti imagine the chaos that erupted with Thera and the centuries of fall out and power struggles following it but it is fun all the same.

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsMiddEast/AnatoliaSeaPeoples.htm

[lightly]

Hi slim and Flashbangwollap, You guys should be able to capture an image from a site and then use the editor (below) to post pics ( click to enlarge variety). I dragged these images (JPG) from the site to my desktop... then ,using the editor *(or Full Editor in Fast Reply) , click on (Choose File) ... wait for icon to appear beside (Choose File) then load images (one at a time) to Attachments by clicking on [Attach This File]. Then.. just click on Add to Post.

That's how i do it anyway with this Mac. Computer. ... hope this helps ??

(Click images to enlarge)

*

Edited December 10, 2010 by lightly

[Flashbangwollap]

Thanks lightly. I'll give it a go.

[Flashbangwollap]

Not sure if I'm going off on an unanted tangent but do let me know if I drift too far from the OP.

The Carians were a mysterious eastern Mediterranean people often associated with the Philistines and with the Phoenicians. The tradition of the Carians was that they, the Lydians, and the Mysians were brother-peoples, descended from three brothers: Car, Lydus, and Mysos. Their reputation as warriors is noted by the fact that King David had both Philistine and Carian bodyguards, the Pleti (a shortened form of Philistine) and the Kari (II Sam. 8:18). At a later time Queen Athaliah, II Kings 11, also had a bodyguard of Cari. The greater fame of the Carians was their reputation as mariners and pirates. The Carians are often mentioned in classical literature. In Egypt, the Mediterranean Sea was known as the Sea of Khar(u). Carians lived in Crete under the name of Leleges and were famous warriors under King Minos of Crete. The Carians had settlements in many parts of the world and left traces in many geographical names containing the syllable "Car," "Cart," or "Keret." The Greek writer, Thucydides noted that the Carians lived on many Aegean islands and joined with the Phoenicians in the great game of piracy. Studies have been made of "Car-" sites all over the world, e.g., Karkar, Carchemish, Car Shalmaneser, and Carthage. After Nebuchadnezzar took Tyre, a remnant of Phoenicians and Carians fled to the west and settled in an earlier colony, Carthage. Homer speaks of barbarously speaking Carians, that is, they did not speak Greek. The script of the Carians may be the same as the still unread Cyprian language or the picture script of Crete, but of course this is only speculation. If some day these scripts are read, we may learn a great deal of ancient times in the eastern Mediterranean (Velikovsky, 1952, p. 198-205; Victoria Institute, 39:90-91).

http://www.creationi...adingChap04.htm

I'm wondering if Cercrops could have been of Caran origin. Other notable things the site mentions is the movement of Baal worship into cletic lands as evidenced by Belus and Beltaine and allegedly Baltic and Balkans. The other notable connection it makes is between Basque and ancient Cretans and possibly Minoans as being related to Dravidians.

Decent link on the sea people.

http://ancientnearea...SeaPeoples.html

There seems to be some debate over exactly who comprised the sea peoples but I think it's most likely they were Mycenean Greeks. Apparently in the OT there is a distincyion made between Philisines and Carians but other sources claim they were both sea peoples but of different tribes. It is hard ti imagine the chaos that erupted with Thera and the centuries of fall out and power struggles following it but it is fun all the same.

http://www.historyfi...aSeaPeoples.htm

Small niggle with the wording here:

(Dunnage or firewood.) I would have thought it quite possible for them to sample the ships timbers and even hide the intrusions later this would then give a more positive date imo as the fire wood could be old stuff combed from beaches etc. Perhaps it's been badly edited on the site listed? However they may have accounted for that.

The Uluburun wreck is located at Uluburun, which is on the southwestern coast of Turkey near Kas. The wreck is located at a depth of more than 40 meters. The ship has been dated to the Late Bronze Age, with the more specific date of 1300 BC given by dendrochronological testing performed on dunnage or firewood found on the wreck. The Uluburun wreck has been crucial to the understanding of ship construction and trade in the Late Bronze Age. Pulak describes the wreck as "one of the wealthiest and largest known assemblages of Late Bronze Age trade goods yet discovered in the Mediterranean" . The cargo included nearly a ton of tin ingots and around ten tons of copper ingots from Cyprus. Other cargo finds include elephant and hippopotamus ivory, glass ingots, and bronze tools and weaponry. Interestingly, by examining the personal effects of the ship's passengers as well as the cargo, archaeologists have hypothesized that there were at least two Mycenaeans aboard, likely men of rank serving as envoys.Some indications of the provenance of the ship and the "nationality" of its crew or merchants on board the ship may be gained from the utility wares (i.e. Cypriot jugs and Mycenaean deep bowls and cook-pots), perhaps also from the incised "trade marks" on the handles of amphora which can be claimed to be connected to the Cypro-Minoan I Script. These facts, taken with the location of the wreck, point to the coast of Cyprus, as the probable base of the ship, where large naval centres flourished atEnkomi, Kition, the site at Hala Sultan Tekke (Alyke), Palaipaphos and Maa-Palaiokastro or to the south coast of the Argolid, to important centres of naval power, also known from the Catalogue of Ships in the Iliad (*4) and from Hesiod's Catalogue of Women (*5) to well-fortified Tiryns, Mases, and well-harboured Hermione and Asine

Edited December 10, 2010 by Flashbangwollap

[lightly]

your Welcome Flashbangwollap, hope it works for you... i think it's a nice way to post images because they load up quick when people with slower connections visit... ( instead of HUGE full size pics that can load very slowly for some , slowing up the entire page..... being on dial up.. i know this)

*oop! looks like you found a way... attaboy

Edited December 10, 2010 by lightly

[The Puzzler]

your Welcome Flashbangwollap, hope it works for you... i think it's a nice way to post images because they load up quick when people with slower connections visit... ( instead of HUGE full size pics that can load very slowly for some , slowing up the entire page..... being on dial up.. i know this)

*oop! looks like you found a way... attaboy

i often just copy the URL of an image (by right clicking and then click Properties) - copy/paste it into your post and then add the square brackets [ ] with the word img in it and same at end of photo URL but put a / before img

I have what looks like this: but no spaces

A picture would normally pop up when I wrote that properly.

Edited December 10, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Flashbangwollap]

i often just copy the URL of an image (by right clicking and then click Properties) - copy/paste it into your post and then add the square brackets [ ] with the word img in it and same at end of photo URL but put a / before img

I have what looks like this: but no spaces

A picture would normally pop up when I wrote that properly.

I wish. I Have tried your suggestions Puzz but the options which appear aren't as you say for me??? However once the links are in google Chrome I can cut paste from there so no worries aye kid. X

[The Puzzler]

Your work on boats is really indepth and nothing much I can comment too much on, but very interesting. Bit late for me to think too much now. Have been reading a a fair bit on the Sea People though.

[Flashbangwollap]

Your work on boats is really indepth and nothing much I can comment too much on, but very interesting. Bit late for me to think too much now. Have been reading a a fair bit on the Sea People though.

That's cool sweetheart. X you do your thing I'll try to do mine...Team work Yeah?

Edited December 10, 2010 by Flashbangwollap

[Flashbangwollap]

The ships of the Sea Peoples:

To me the twin beaked ships appear distinct from almost all Mediterranean ships of the 1200 BC. period.

There are only two other types which come close to the depictions of the Sea Peoples ships on the Temple walls of Medinet Habu.

One is the Skyros shard or fragment painting which has the twin beaks of birds at each end but it also has a curved bow and stern. I concede that the curve could be just artistic licence.

Next there are a few Syro Canaanite cargo vessels, but I must add that it's not yet clear to me whether merchant ships had a dual use. The introduction of the ram bow however is clearly a statement of intended use. I have not found any clear indication to me which came first the cargo type or the ram and of course with a reduced crew the warship could have carried cargo or booty after a raid. The overall appearance of the cargo vessels is heavily stylised as plainly they would be impossible to sail with such a pronounced rocker. I have posted a link to an artists impression of the cargo vessel before on this thread and so refer to that one if you wish. However the artist has gone for a solid wooden keel and edge on edge planking which might be from a later era. Particularly if the planks are held with tenon joints but is still, with a stretch, within the realms of possibility.

Another oddity to me is the retention of the reversed curved stern and for two reasons. Firstly majority opinion says that these boats were supplemented with a single masted square sail amid ships. Also that they could not sail to windward to any useful degree. I think this is a little demeaning to the sailors of the day since the sails are generally depicted with brailing sheets or ropes to alter the wind-age of the sail. On top of the mast can often be seen a device for the attachment of the stays (Semi standing rigging) and it would be easily apparent that allowing the sail to pivot about the mast would make sailing her far more predictable and much safer. However the bluff stern would make it hard to steer the ship stern first. So cargo ships carrying less crew needed a double ender design far more than a warship which could rely on man power where and if necessary. When in battle and in range of the enemy they were likely drop the sail and rely solely on manpower. And finally there seems to be a good chance that both these types existed together regardless of construction methods. ie. they may have been plank and stitch which is almost identical with the Ferriby boats of Britain.

I would dearly like to tank test the various designs before us. Over the years I have nurtured an eye for a good hull which equates to, if it looks right it generally is. The ships with the heavy rocker being a point in mind and easy for all to notice. However that's none to convenient for the purposes of this thread but I may try a few card models all the same in the future. I will add to this later.

http://books.google....20ships&f=false

So I believe the best candidate for an Ocean going ship is the one carved on the Temple walls at Medinet Habu. For a construction method I think the Ferriby boats stitch and plank are adequate for purpose.

After studying the carvings and other peoples reconstructions in model form I think I would attach dodgers made of heavy fabric -Linen, Flax or even Leather.

When it comes to leather and the belief that it was used for sails by the Celts/Gauls I'd like you to erase it from your minds as it is total nonsense. A sail of any size in cotton or canvas gets heavy enough when wet just ask a women who puts wet sheets on a washing line to dry. Imagine a wet leather sail of equal size and you get the picture. This myth was perhaps started by the Romans when they referred to tanned sails which appeared red /brown in colour like hide. The mistaken connection tanned colour to leather sails is easy to see. I hope.

The addition of dodgers would greatly facilitate rowing at sea and still remain flexible enough for movement of the oars whilst defending against water ingress to the open area of the ship. They could easily be stowed when not in use and again more easily maintained when removed from the ship.

The ends of the Twin Beaked ships seem to have a raised platform at each end which if boxed in as they appear to be would serve as extra buoyancy and keep the boat upright and floating if swamped. There are many examples of this on modern fishing vessels and the above mentioned row boats.

This is a pick of a reconstruction of the Ferriby type boat.

http://www.minoanatl..._Half_Scale.jpg

Edited December 11, 2010 by Flashbangwollap

[SlimJim22]

Comprehensive link. Cheers

The extent of the Minoan colonies fits with what I suspected but I was not aware just how early they were active.

[Flashbangwollap]

Your work on boats is really indepth and nothing much I can comment too much on, but very interesting. Bit late for me to think too much now. Have been reading a a fair bit on the Sea People though.

It would be if they would let me tinker a bit more. I was messing around trying to get a good pic and YOU DON't HAVE PERMISSION...

[Flashbangwollap]

Comprehensive link. Cheers

The extent of the Minoan colonies fits with what I suspected but I was not aware just how early they were active.

Yes and those boats look thoroughly Egyptian to me and a wee bit flimsy!

[SlimJim22]

Yes and those boats look thoroughly Egyptian to me and a wee bit flimsy!

Mass produced ships for war are never gonna be as sturdy as the ships of wiley old traders. Expert ship builders would be hard pressed to reproduce a high quality ship. The Minoans look like experienced seafarers, more so than the Egyptians who could have survived off of mostly river going vessels. Access to wood may have become an issue in Egypt I'm guessing. Mainland Greece would not I assume, have such a problem. However it was the area of Lebanon, Cyprus and Thera that had the best ships. Ideal ports for a culture like Sumer to have access to a wide array of foreign goods.

If you suddenly have two powerful hostile groups it totally changes the game and control of ports becomes integral to greater expansion. Iliad and the Oddyssey combined may reflect a theorized or genuine history of Europe and it's water ways in microcosm or it could be the tradition more or less as it happened. The scale could have been exagerated but the emphasis was probably about right.

[Flashbangwollap]

Mass produced ships for war are never gonna be as sturdy as the ships of wiley old traders. Expert ship builders would be hard pressed to reproduce a high quality ship. The Minoans look like experienced seafarers, more so than the Egyptians who could have survived off of mostly river going vessels. Access to wood may have become an issue in Egypt I'm guessing. Mainland Greece would not I assume, have such a problem. However it was the area of Lebanon, Cyprus and Thera that had the best ships. Ideal ports for a culture like Sumer to have access to a wide array of foreign goods.

If you suddenly have two powerful hostile groups it totally changes the game and control of ports becomes integral to greater expansion. Iliad and the Oddyssey combined may reflect a theorized or genuine history of Europe and it's water ways in microcosm or it could be the tradition more or less as it happened. The scale could have been exagerated but the emphasis was probably about right.

Not too sure to which era you are referring here but Caesar's invasion shows how quickly the Romans could pull a fleet out of a hat so to speak. As usual the Celts/Gauls were slow to counter on the continent as they wasted time pulling together the various factions. Same thing in Britain would apply I wouldn't wonder and I think they lacked a coherent fleet for possibly the very same reasons, since they met Caesar on the beaches to my recollection anyway.

Prior to that we have very little to go on by way of written texts and reliable sources apart of course from the Iliad. Thanks for the latest link which seems to tie in with my backing Wilkens. I will send the brothers an email and await their reply. Should be interesting in any event.

[KillCarneyKlansman]

This doesn't really have much to do with this point, but it was interesting enough to speak in passing here.

Yi Soon-Shin of the Josean Empire of Korea in like the 15-1600's stopped 1000's of Japanese ships with 2 fleeets of like 7 ships.

On of them was the turtle ship. The Koreans didn't have guns, per say but artillery, the Portugeuse traded guns with Japan.

Many times the Romans under threat by sea, regrouped and held major powers like the Carthaginians at bay.

When they're naval power had been forgotten.

Edited December 12, 2010 by KillCarneyKlansman

[Flashbangwollap]

Best illustration I can find of the Ferriby boats. These are obviously inland water/river/inshore craft or at a stretch might be used to cross the channel in a fine weather spell. The uses for a boat like this are to me almost endless. Fishing, transport of goods/people, ferry across wider sections of rivers bisecting tribal land, harvesting reeds for thatch, estuary muscle bed harvesting and so on.

[Number Fingers]

To me, the Iliad is like the story of King Arthur but for the Ancient Greeks. It presents an anachronistic view of the battle, modernized for an audience in 800 BC. For instance, the level of specialization, armour and weaponry is too advanced for 1200 BC, just the same as the weaponry in the King Arthur stories is way too advanced for its supposed timeframe. The Greeks at that time were basically barbaric themselves and warred constantly with cities everywhere. As was said in the first few posts, the attack on Troy was basically a raid, and the Iliad states that they left after looting the city. There certainly was nothing glamorous or noble about the Greek's attack. They killed whoever they could and looted what they could take.

However, the Iliad was a good propoganda tool, for the myth confirms to the Greeks their dominance over their most powerful enemies and that the Gods themselves were on their side. Thus, in their own eyes, the Greeks were destined for greatness at the expense of every other people. The book is also an allegory: look at how the Greeks war for freedom of the woman Helen, while the Greeks called themselves the Hellenes.

[Flashbangwollap]

[SlimJim22]

Not too sure to which era you are referring here but Caesar's invasion shows how quickly the Romans could pull a fleet out of a hat so to speak. As usual the Celts/Gauls were slow to counter on the continent as they wasted time pulling together the various factions. Same thing in Britain would apply I wouldn't wonder and I think they lacked a coherent fleet for possibly the very same reasons, since they met Caesar on the beaches to my recollection anyway.

Prior to that we have very little to go on by way of written texts and reliable sources apart of course from the Iliad. Thanks for the latest link which seems to tie in with my backing Wilkens. I will send the brothers an email and await their reply. Should be interesting in any event.

I was referring to the Bronze Age when I suspect Minoans held considerable sway over much of Europe withcolonies up to the Iberian peninsula and from there they may have traded with the British Isles.

Here is a book on ancient seafaring. I've had a scan of it and there are plenty of pictures but nothing radically different to what we've seen already.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=apna4pv7Ks8C&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=minoan+ships+of+the+bronze+age%2Bseafarers&source=bl&ots=m-A9OEZJjV&sig=kDSI3Hw5DursQBgGKgaUMMW2Mng&hl=en&ei=wMIETfSVCoaL4AbOwo2KCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=minoan%20ships%20of%20the%20bronze%20age%2Bseafarers&f=false

Because man had been sailing the seas for millenia I see no reason why in isolated instances they could have adapted ships to make them more worthy of coping with turbulent seas. This one looks to have more of an in depth discussion of the ancient capabilities.

http://www.therafoundation.org/articles/economysociety/somenotesonseafaringduringthesecondmillenuimbc

The relevance is that during the demise of the Minoans a lot of their trade routes would have been up for grabs and perhaps the Trojans no longer had the protection of the Minoans.