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tazjet

Nazi Atomic bomb used in 1943

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The following intercepted Japanese diplomatic ...

... that their encyphered diplomatic signals from Berlin and Stockholm were being read in London and Washington.

thanks for the info

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The germans did not get passed the 'heavy water' testing stages of nuclear bomb creation (thankfully).

Tired old false Heavy Water cliche about the Nazi atomic bomb project...

The truth is they had:

# 1) Leuna plant south of Mersberg near Berlin (Harteck/Suess process - codename Stalin Organ)

# 2) Kiel Plant 4 km outside Kiel, wooded area (Dr K Geib’s hydrogen sulphide exchange process)

# 3) Hamburg Plant (possibly near Zeven, Harteck low pressure distilation process)

# 4) Munich Plant (Clusius-Linde, Nernst Distribution Process)

Outside Germany:

# 5) Vemork (Haber-Bosch process) Norway

# 6) Saheim (Haber-Bosch process) Norway

# 7) Montecantini plant at Merano, Italy (near Bolzano)

The Vemork plant was disassembled by 11 August 1944. Nine of the electrolytic cells were re-established at the Dahlem bunker in Berlin. another nine were re-established at Haigerloch in southern Germany.

Incidentally after the war Dr Paul Harteck disclosed the Heavy Water sunk on the Hydro Ferry was swapped in advance for slightly concentrated water thanks to advance warning of a sabotage attempt. Six weeks later when six drums which floated free of the ferry arrived at the laboratory of Karl Wirtz, he demanded to know from Harteck why Harteck had even bothered? Then Harteck surprised Wirtz by producing the real shipment taken out by lorry.

Edited by tazjet
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Whatever happened - it didn't happen in a Junkers Ju 390!

Only 2 prototypes (V1 and V2) were built. Ju 390V1 was returned to Dessau in November 1944, where it was stripped of parts and finally destroyed in late April 1945 as the American Army approached. The fate of V2 is less clear, but to cut a long story short - Karl Kössler and Günter Ott, in their book 'Die Geschichte einer Flugzeugfamilie' state that it was destroyed 'somewhere near Babenhausen in spring 1945.

Considerable interest was displayed in the planned Ju 390A-1, an ultra-long range aircraft by the Imperial Japanese Army Air Force. In the autumn of 1944, the Japanese government acquired a manufacturing license for the Ju 390A-1. Under the licensing agreement, detailed manufacturing drawings were scheduled to be handed over to the Imperial Japanese Army's representative, Major-General Otani, by February 28, 1945.

There is no record of this part of the agreement having been fulfilled.

Ott and Kossler have also stated that the second prototype must have been built in September 1944 when in fact the emergency fighter program of 3 July 1944 saw cancellation of the Ju-390 project. Junkers was compensated in July 1944 for seven incomplete Ju-390 airframes.

Ott & Kossler are wrong claiming that the second prototype was built months after production was scrapped. They have been embarrassed by new information which emerged since their book was published and have tried to adapt their claims to nulify the inconsistency.

Airframes which were scrapped were being manufactured before July.

Incidentally It was recommended to Erhard Milch by a Reichlin official that they dispense with the second prototype ("V2") and re-designate it the A-1 production aircraft. (Source author & researcher Geoffrey Brooks)

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Tired old false Heavy Water cliche about the Nazi atomic bomb project...

The truth is they had:

# 1) Leuna plant south of Mersberg near Berlin (Harteck/Suess process - codename Stalin Organ)

# 2) Kiel Plant 4 km outside Kiel, wooded area (Dr K Geib’s hydrogen sulphide exchange process)

# 3) Hamburg Plant (possibly near Zeven, Harteck low pressure distilation process)

# 4) Munich Plant (Clusius-Linde, Nernst Distribution Process)

Outside Germany:

# 5) Vemork (Haber-Bosch process) Norway

# 6) Saheim (Haber-Bosch process) Norway

# 7) Montecantini plant at Merano, Italy (near Bolzano)

The Vemork plant was disassembled by 11 August 1944. Nine of the electrolytic cells were re-established at the Dahlem bunker in Berlin. another nine were re-established at Haigerloch in southern Germany.

Incidentally after the war Dr Paul Harteck disclosed the Heavy Water sunk on the Hydro Ferry was swapped in advance for slightly concentrated water thanks to advance warning of a sabotage attempt. Six weeks later when six drums which floated free of the ferry arrived at the laboratory of Karl Wirtz, he demanded to know from Harteck why Harteck had even bothered? Then Harteck surprised Wirtz by producing the real shipment taken out by lorry.

I think we have to take into consideration allied propaganda.

Would they ever tell us if they'd produced small amounts of nuclear material and used them on the Russians?

All I know is in the last weeks of the war the Aliies were paniacing and desperate to defeat Hitler. I think a large scale bomb was on its way.

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Except that his scientists didn't know how to build one. Nor did they have a planet to make one. The closest thing they had to a plant that might have been able to do that was destroyed in March 1945.

Look closely at what the Americans and Soviets had to commit as resources to get it done then look at what Germany did - not even close.

Take a look at the weight of the first warheads made - how would the German's have lifted them? That is if they had made one.

Strangely skilled percision workers don't recall having made the materials or the mechanism to do all of this

Its all space gas.......

Hanslune the American atomic bombs were very primative affairs. In USA there were two bomb projects. Not one. The method used to enrich Uranium was very primative (gaseous diffusion) whilst the Germans were light years ahead. The gaseous ultracentrifuge for example was thirty times more efficient at enrichment than was the American process. The Zippe thermal convection centrifuge method was even more advanced than the ultracentrifuge.

The so called Zippe centrifuge according to history books was developed in Russia after the war and brought to the west by a German engineer named Guernot Zippe. In reality the Zippe was actually developed in wartime Germany by Dr Hans Martin and Dr Richard Kuhn at Hamburg.

However the crowning glory was an advanced particle accelerator developed at Bisingen by Swiss scientist Walter Dallenbach (Forschunhgsstelle D). Dallenbach's particle accelerator could perform the same function as a heavy water reactor, through a nuclear photo-chemistry process. Today we call that process, LENR.

If you refer to the Woods memorandum, pages 18-19, part of the Hull Papers refers to nuclear tests just south of Bisingen on 4th, 14th and 22nd of July 1943. Later in 1944 there was a further test blast on a wooded hill south of Munich near Starnbergersee. The BIOS report of this talks about a forest being flattened for 4-4.5km radius and damage out to 12.5km

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I think we have to take into consideration allied propaganda.

Would they ever tell us if they'd produced small amounts of nuclear material and used them on the Russians?

All I know is in the last weeks of the war the Aliies were paniacing and desperate to defeat Hitler. I think a large scale bomb was on its way.

Power Lust I think the Nazis were further advanced than most people understand, but you are correct that the Allies retrospectively suppressed knowledge of this. The Dallenbach project for example remains classified to this day.

The Germans had tactical nukes in 1943-44. They were working on a larger bomb. Dornberger disclosed to hidden microphones whilst interned after the war at CSDIC Camp 11 in Wales that Hitler intended more for the V-2 than just 2 tons of high explosives. There were inferences given to the OSS by their informant Respondek that the German Atomic weapon was due for use by October 1944.

In July 1944 Churchill was so fearful of an imminent nuclear attack on England that he warned Hitler that the RAF would retaliate with mass seeding of Anthrax across Germany. The United States amplified Churchill's threat by warning Hitler through Lisbon of an intention by USA to drop an atomic weapon on Dresden unless Hitler sued for peace within six weeks.

Respondek who worked for the Nazi Economic Ministry was arrested following the bomb plot against Hitler on 20th July 1944. In Jail he was approached by Himler to take a peace feeler to Sam Woods in Switzerland.

The reason Germany failed use nukes was not because they lacked the technical competence. In fact an Austrian scientist named Professor Lachner revealed from Argentina after the war that 15 nuclear weapons were built by Germany before the war ended and two of these fell into Soviet hands.

Dresden was targeted in February 1945 because it housed Max Steenbeck's plasma physics laboratory vital to Dallenbach's project and the Allies wanted it destroyed before Dresden fell to the Soviets. In fact the laboratory survived Dresden's bombing and afterwards equipment was evacuated south by Dr Rolf Wideroe to Kreis Ebermannstadt.

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The following intercepted Japanese diplomatic signal was intercepted during World War 2: "Stockholm to Tokyo" No. 232.9 December 1944 (War Department), National Archives, RG 457, declassified October 1, 1978.

I went to the National Archive Online and tried to search for this document. I could not find it. Perhaps you would be so kind as to introduce some proof that it is real?

I have seen it all over the internet, thanks to google searches, but none of those quotes has a link to the original source, or a picture of the document. Given... a picture of the document does not really mean anything either.

Unless we can all read the document, then what you are posting is just hearsay.

Source:

Wilcox, Robert K. "Japan's Secret War" pub 1985

Sounds like an interesting book.

Here is what Wikipedia has to say:

The 1985 book "Japan's Secret War: Japan's Race Against Time to Build Its Own Atomic Bomb" by Robert K. Wilcox reprinted the Snell material as part of its investigation of Japan's World War Two nuclear research. In addition to detailing the known Japanese army and navy efforts, the book cited numerous intelligence reports and interviews which indicated the Japanese might have had an atomic program at Konan and offered evidence that the Japanese Navy, taking up the atomic project after Nishina’s separator at Riken had been destroyed, had accelerated Japanese efforts to make a nuclear weapon.

A review by Department of Energy employee Roger M. Anders appeared in the journal Military Affairs:

Journalist Wilcox' book describes the Japanese wartime atomic energy projects. This is laudable, in that it illuminates a little-known episode; nevertheless, the work is marred by Wilcox' seeming eagerness to show that Japan created an atomic bomb. Tales of Japanese atomic explosions, one a fictional attack on Los Angeles, the other an unsubstantiated account of a post-Hiroshima test, begin the book. (Wilcox accepts the test story because the author [snell], "was a distinguished journalist"). The tales, combined with Wilcox' failure to discuss the difficulty of translating scientific theory into a workable bomb, obscure the actual story of the Japanese effort: uncoordinated laboratory-scale projects which took paths least likely to produce a bomb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_nuclear_weapon_program

Also here is a link to AboveTopSecret.com where this subject was discussed and dismissed a couple weeks ago. Apparently the warhead design is ridiculously inadiquite for what a nuclear device would need for critical mass.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread620332/pg1

Edited by DieChecker
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Power Lust I think the Nazis were further advanced than most people understand, but you are correct that the Allies retrospectively suppressed knowledge of this. The Dallenbach project for example remains classified to this day.

The Germans had tactical nukes in 1943-44. They were working on a larger bomb. Dornberger disclosed to hidden microphones whilst interned after the war at CSDIC Camp 11 in Wales that Hitler intended more for the V-2 than just 2 tons of high explosives. There were inferences given to the OSS by their informant Respondek that the German Atomic weapon was due for use by October 1944.

In July 1944 Churchill was so fearful of an imminent nuclear attack on England that he warned Hitler that the RAF would retaliate with mass seeding of Anthrax across Germany. The United States amplified Churchill's threat by warning Hitler through Lisbon of an intention by USA to drop an atomic weapon on Dresden unless Hitler sued for peace within six weeks.

Respondek who worked for the Nazi Economic Ministry was arrested following the bomb plot against Hitler on 20th July 1944. In Jail he was approached by Himler to take a peace feeler to Sam Woods in Switzerland.

The reason Germany failed use nukes was not because they lacked the technical competence. In fact an Austrian scientist named Professor Lachner revealed from Argentina after the war that 15 nuclear weapons were built by Germany before the war ended and two of these fell into Soviet hands.

Dresden was targeted in February 1945 because it housed Max Steenbeck's plasma physics laboratory vital to Dallenbach's project and the Allies wanted it destroyed before Dresden fell to the Soviets. In fact the laboratory survived Dresden's bombing and afterwards equipment was evacuated south by Dr Rolf Wideroe to Kreis Ebermannstadt.

Regardless off fisson I wonder why the Nutzis didnt dirty bomb us.

If they planned to get their attack in first they could have given themselves enough time to make gas masks for their people.

Edited by Power Lust

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I went to the National Archive Online and tried to search for this document. I could not find it. Perhaps you would be so kind as to introduce some proof that it is real?

I have seen it all over the internet, thanks to google searches, but none of those quotes has a link to the original source, or a picture of the document. Given... a picture of the document does not really mean anything either.

Unless we can all read the document, then what you are posting is just hearsay.

These are archives from the US National Archives also called NARA. Only some selected files are posted online and these are mainly through the German Archive service. I have quoted it from books where it has been published previously. Mehner und Meyer have published it and so to has Joseph Farrell. If you want to consult the original there seems little choice except to visit the the US National Archives in person sorry.

The document has been widely published for some time and correctly referenced.

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Regardless off fisson I wonder why the Nutzis didnt dirty bomb us.

If they planned to get their attack in first they could have given themselves enough time to make gas masks for their people.

Probably three reasons:

1) As I noted it's also widely reported and published that Hitler was threatened with Anthrax by Churchill in July 1944. On 5 August 1944 Hitler met with Roumania's Marshal Antonescu and discussed the tremendous destructive power of Germany's new atomic bomb. Roumania errupted in civil war shortly afterwards and Antonescu was hung after a war crimes trial. However he mentioned that during the meeting, Hitler said he would not use such weapons until germany could adequately defend itself against similar weapons which the Allies threatened Germany with. Remember too that the Japanese signal reveals Soviet threats to use poison gas against Germany. Germany was starved of rubber for gas masks too. Against Anthrax they lacked antibiotics.

2) Lack of adequate delivery systems and not enough nuclear weapons to make a difference. No matter how clever the Germans were and no matter what process they used to obtain fissile material for bombs it was a slow time consuming process. They say you should never start a fight unless you are certain of finishing it.

3) The Americans demanded Hitler parley for peace. Several indications suggest that up until April 1945, Hitler seriously believed the Americans would join germany in a fight against Bolshevism. If such an undertaking were given then I can understand why the Western Allies dare not admit this fact after the war. Stalin had a powerful military and it could have kept rolling all the way to the Atlantic coast of Europe if Stalin so chose.

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Probably three reasons:

1) As I noted it's also widely reported and published that Hitler was threatened with Anthrax by Churchill in July 1944. On 5 August 1944 Hitler met with Roumania's Marshal Antonescu and discussed the tremendous destructive power of Germany's new atomic bomb. Roumania errupted in civil war shortly afterwards and Antonescu was hung after a war crimes trial. However he mentioned that during the meeting, Hitler said he would not use such weapons until germany could adequately defend itself against similar weapons which the Allies threatened Germany with. Remember too that the Japanese signal reveals Soviet threats to use poison gas against Germany. Germany was starved of rubber for gas masks too. Against Anthrax they lacked antibiotics.

2) Lack of adequate delivery systems and not enough nuclear weapons to make a difference. No matter how clever the Germans were and no matter what process they used to obtain fissile material for bombs it was a slow time consuming process. They say you should never start a fight unless you are certain of finishing it.

3) The Americans demanded Hitler parley for peace. Several indications suggest that up until April 1945, Hitler seriously believed the Americans would join germany in a fight against Bolshevism. If such an undertaking were given then I can understand why the Western Allies dare not admit this fact after the war. Stalin had a powerful military and it could have kept rolling all the way to the Atlantic coast of Europe if Stalin so chose.

1. 'Widely reported in the fringe world only' Debunk here http://www.julianlewis.net/local_news_detail.php?id=9

2. The simple answer is they didn't have it - remember we have the statements of nearly all surviving German nuclear scientists and technicians - they never even got close and were going down the wrong path

3. The Allies demanded unconditional surrender as per the Following the Casablanca Conference in January 1943, the Allies announced an unconditional surrender policy with respect to the Axis powers, that is, the Allies would fight on until such time as the Axis powers surrendered unconditionally. In fact, Italy was allowed to surrender in 1943 with some conditions,(switching sides) but German capitulated unconditionally in May 1945

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Any proof of that statement?

In 1982 retired General KAWASHIMA Touransouke gave an interview on Japanese TV in which he advised that 2000kilograms of Uranium was shipped to Japan during 1944 by U-boats.

It is kind of a myth that Germany lacked heavy water. It is a historical fact that Nazi germany operated more than one Heavy Water distillation plant. These were the plants they operated:

# 1) Leuna plant south of Mersberg near Berlin (Harteck/Suess process - codename Stalin Organ)

# 2) Kiel Plant 4 km outside Kiel, wooded area (Dr K Geib’s hydrogen sulphide exchange process)

# 3) Hamburg Plant (possibly near Zeven, Harteck low pressure distilation process)

# 4) Munich Plant (Clusius-Linde, Nernst Distribution Process)

# 5) Vemork (Haber-Bosch process) Norway

# 6) Saheim (Haber-Bosch process) Norway

# 7) Montecantini plant at Merano, Italy (near Bolzano)

In addition Prof Kurt Deibner revealed to Dr Karl Wirtz six weeks after the sinking of the ferry Hydro on Lake Tinso that they were pre-warned of an attack on the ferry and sent a dummy cargo of lightly distilled water on the ferry. Deibner boasted that the real cargo went by truck and survived the journey. Diebner was the head of the Army Ordnance Department's Forschungstelle E, or atomic bomb project.

Heisenberg had nothing directly to do with Forschungstelle E.

Forschungstelle E had two scientists General Dr Eric Schumann and Dr Walter Trinks. From 1941 onwards together they submitted 40 patents for a nuclear weapon design totally unlike anything the Allies produced.

After the war Deibner came to USA as part of Operation Paperclip and taught USA how to miniaturise nuclear weapons resulting in the Swan device.

sequenceddetonation.jpg

The Schumann/Trinks bomb worked by slamming two molten Lithium liners into a marble size target of Uranium 233 coated with Lithium Deuteride. This collision of Lithium and Deuteride under huge pressures and temperatures caused a Plasma Pinch which released a rush of Neutrons into a Fissile target.

Source "Hitler's Bomb", (2005) by Rainer Karlsch & Heiko Petermann

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Regardless off fisson I wonder why the Nutzis didnt dirty bomb us.

If they planned to get their attack in first they could have given themselves enough time to make gas masks for their people.

Apparently they did make an attempt to bomb New York with a Junkers Ju-390 on 17-18 September 1944. The aircraft is on the seabed just off Owl's Point, Maine, USA. On 28 September the bodies of three Luftwaffe aviators were recovered from the waters of nearby Penobscot River estury and were taken to the nearby Coast Guard station. A constructor's plate for the aircraft was removed by a diver from Vermont who announced it was a Junkers RMZ tag and the aircraft had six engines.

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Apparently they did make an attempt to bomb New York with a Junkers Ju-390 on 17-18 September 1944. The aircraft is on the seabed just off Owl's Point, Maine, USA. On 28 September the bodies of three Luftwaffe aviators were recovered from the waters of nearby Penobscot River estury and were taken to the nearby Coast Guard station. A constructor's plate for the aircraft was removed by a diver from Vermont who announced it was a Junkers RMZ tag and the aircraft had six engines.

Indeed that may be true, but certainly not with nuclear devices. If they actually had nuclear devices (which we know that they had not), they would have been much more useful in the theater of war. i.e., the Eastern front or at British Airfields.

Cheers,

Badeskov

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Indeed that may be true, but certainly not with nuclear devices. If they actually had nuclear devices (which we know that they had not), they would have been much more useful in the theater of war. i.e., the Eastern front or at British Airfields.

Cheers,

Badeskov

The Germans were good at most things and still are,except designing a better plane than a Spitfire.If they had, I guess the Battle of Britain would have been lost,and Britain would have been invaded, but we also had a guy called Sir Winston Churchill who convinced them otherwise..Then America was attacked,and from then on it was bye bye Hitler..p.s there were Americans,Canadians,Poles,Czechs,and an Israeli,fighter pilots in the Battle of Britain,Thanks guys.

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The Germans were good at most things and still are,except designing a better plane than a Spitfire.

Up to the Spit MkIX, the FW190A was the better aircraft in all respects.

..p.s there were Americans,Canadians,Poles,Czechs,and an Israeli,fighter pilots in the Battle of Britain,Thanks guys.

You forgot the French, New Zealanders, Rhodesians, Irish, S.Africans, Belgians, and one each Palestinian and Jamaican!

OK, I'll shut up now!

s0220.gif

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Up to the Spit MkIX, the FW190A was the better aircraft in all respects.

You forgot the French, New Zealanders, Rhodesians, Irish, S.Africans, Belgians, and one each Palestinian and Jamaican!

OK, I'll shut up now!

s0220.gif

Disagree on your aircraft post,or are you saying the German Pilots were not as good ? The Spitfire was acknowledged by the German Pilots ,to be far superior to what they had....I didnt forget the other foreign nationals I just didnt have time to add them in at the time I posted . Ok you can shut up now, Cheers....

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Indeed that may be true, but certainly not with nuclear devices. If they actually had nuclear devices (which we know that they had not), they would have been much more useful in the theater of war. i.e., the Eastern front or at British Airfields.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Your response falls at the first hurdle... common sense. The ONLY possible mission for a Ju-390 in US airspace in September 1944 would be a nuclear attack.

By late 1944, Germany lacked air superiority over it's own skies and German bombers could not survive over British airspace during 1944, except for a few fast non-precision night attacks by He-177 bombers which had to dive from great height over Europe and escape at sea level. Bombing the UK was not a possibility by then.

The former Luftwaffe aviator pictured below, Peter Brill came forward a few years ago to say publicly that in 1944 he was trained as a celestial navigator for planned raid on New York:

peterbrillamerikabomber.jpg

It also fails because your reply ignores all historical context. On 2 September 1944 the British Newspaper Daily Telegraph warned of an imminent attack on New York.

Abomb7.jpg

From time to time there were genuine tips and warnings to the press from the British Government, often based on broadcast threats by the German Government. This Ju-390 raid fits the context and fits with Hitler's public threats after the bombing of Munich in 1944.

SanDiegoTJul44.jpg

There was no point in a raid on USA by a single aircraft with anything less than a nuclear weapon. It was a once only window of opportunity to strike, because after a first raid had tipped off US air defences there would never be another chance to strike New York.

Goeringmap.jpg

Hitler was obsessed with bombing New York and in 1943 Goering drew up plans for a nuclear attack on New York resulting in this map which you have no logical explanation for.

Germany was manufacturing thousands of tons of Tabun-B nerve gas and stockpiling artillery rounds and aircraft bombs filled with nerve gas for a planned offensive in October 1944 according to an OSS report from Switzerland dated November 1944.

I am happy to accept your admission that you cannot bring yourself to believe the Germans had nuclear weapons, but that itself is no proof they did not exist and furthermore your conclusion ignores a growing swell of evidence from multiple independent sources which indicate the Germans did have nuclear weapons in 1943/44.

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Disagree on your aircraft post,or are you saying the German Pilots were not as good ? The Spitfire was acknowledged by the German Pilots ,to be far superior to what they had....I didnt forget the other foreign nationals I just didnt have time to add them in at the time I posted . Ok you can shut up now, Cheers....

The truth is that both the Spitfire and the BF109/FW190 underwent constant powerplant upgrades to keep up with each other.

On the nuclear point The top secret Monsanto Report commissioned by the Manhattan Committee at the end of WW2 conceded that Nazi nuclear science in some ways was more advanced than Allied nuclear technology, so much so that the manhattan Committee was urged to suppress knowledge of Nazi nuclear research indefinitely.

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Propoganda still working well after all these years!

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Posted (edited)

I went to the National Archive Online and tried to search for this document. I could not find it. Perhaps you would be so kind as to introduce some proof that it is real?

I have seen it all over the internet, thanks to google searches, but none of those quotes has a link to the original source, or a picture of the document. Given... a picture of the document does not really mean anything either.

Unless we can all read the document, then what you are posting is just hearsay.

Sounds like an interesting book.

Here is what Wikipedia has to say:

http://en.wikipedia...._weapon_program

Also here is a link to AboveTopSecret.com where this subject was discussed and dismissed a couple weeks ago. Apparently the warhead design is ridiculously inadiquite for what a nuclear device would need for critical mass.

http://www.abovetops...hread620332/pg1

Wikipedia is constantly revised, edited and re-edited by combattive contributors, so the content is often contested and shifting like quicksand.

My apologies for sloppy citation. The signal to my knowledge was first cited in German and has been referred to since in English by various commentators like Joseph Farrell.

The original reference to it was in German by Edgar Mayer and Thomas Mehner, Hitler und die, Bombe" (Rottenburg: Kopp Verlag, 2002),

http://vho.org/VffG/2005/1/Holzner99-102.html

In English I think this link to a PDF of “Reich of the Black Sun,” cites the document. You can search the PDF for words or phrases:

http://www.whale.to/b/farrell.pdf

I believe from an author friend in the United States that only US citizens can access NARA archives online. In any case it is on a microfilm SRA roll which would defeat any effort to find it online. SRA relates to records of communications by Japanese Diplomatic Attache during WW2.

The full citation is Japanese Diplomatic signal intercept 12 December 1944 (Magic decrypt) Trans 14 Dec 44 (3020- B, "Stockholm to Tokyo, No. 232.9 December 1944 (War Department), National Archives, RG 457, SRA 14628-32, declassified October 1, 1978

IIRC the signal refers to destruction of the 19th Division 150 miles south of Kursk in June 1943, before the famous tank battle. There was the reduction of the Izmur Pocket about this time frame, just north of Karkov. I think the 19th Division were also referred to as the Vorezneh Rifles, but I am no expert in Soviet units.

I have faith that the document cited exists.

http://www.whale.to/b/farrell.pdf

Edited by tazjet

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Posted (edited)

Indeed that may be true, but certainly not with nuclear devices. If they actually had nuclear devices (which we know that they had not), they would have been much more useful in the theater of war. i.e., the Eastern front or at British Airfields.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Well no you don't know... you are only stating an opinion.

All we know is Germany lost the War. Threats were made to Hitler in July 1944 via Lisbon by the Americans to use nuclear weapons on Dresden unless he abandoned Germany's nuclear weapons. Churchill also warned he would use the RAF to drop anthrax infected cattle cakes all over the German countryside.

The British in seeking to prosecute General Dornberger at Nuremberg cited a CSDIC summary of evidence taken from his own comments evesdropped by hidden microphones, relating to secret surrender talks at Lisbon in 1944. These talks are nowhere else disclosed in historical records yet the British were prepared to cite them in evidence at Nuremberg.

Regards the question why not use the weapons tactically against airfields or Soviet ground forces?

If the Americans laboured from 1942 to 1945 and only produced three nuclear weapons in that time including: Trinity (Mark I bomb) Little Boy (Mark II) and Fat Man (Mark III) then please explain to me why they specifically used them on undamaged Japanese cities rather than tactically in the battle for Okinawa?

The answer is they were too precious and too rare to be wasted tactically and a devastating attack on New York would have greater impact. A Soviet tank division could be replaced. A couple of squadrons on an airfield could also have been replaced. Other airfields could be pressed into service within days or hours with new units. Such tactical use would have been meaningless compared to a knock out blow against New York which Hitler was apparently fixated upon.

Edited by tazjet

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Well no you don't know... you are only stating an opinion.

The German surrender was unconditional, which means (among other things) that they lost all control of their own records. It beggars the imagination that we would not have come across documents describing the development and use of an atomic weapon, even if it was only a 'dirty bomb'. What we do have is a clear paper trail that shows their atomic effort was - like many of their research efforts - fragmented, desultory and unsuccessful.

Incidentally, while I won't guarantee the accuracy of my memory, I'm pretty sure we had one more atomic bomb in reserve at the end or WW2.

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i've heard of occums razor, but i wonder if there is a judge-judy bull**** detecter?

It beggars the imagination that we would not have come across documents describing the development and use of an atomic weapon, even if it was only a 'dirty bomb'.

right.. so this is a bit like drawing a comparison to operation paperclip.. it would beggar the imaginations of US citizens to learn the enemy nazi scientists were drafted over to their science programs

(as opposed to)

What we do have is a clear paper trail that shows their atomic effort was - like many of their research efforts - fragmented, desultory and unsuccessful.

right... so this has all the credibility of a FOX news report..

..i couldn't say/prove one way or another if they had the technology back then (personally, i think they did) ..but like judge judy, i know a pile of bull**** when i hear it, and that makes me curious about what the REAL story is..

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right.. so this is a bit like drawing a comparison to operation paperclip.. it would beggar the imaginations of US citizens to learn the enemy nazi scientists were drafted over to their science programs

I hate to tell you, but the joke back in the '50s (I was there) was that the Russians beat us into space because "their Germans are better than ours."

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