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striker7

JFK Assassination

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Have you ever fired a rifle? Have you ever fired at a moving target?

Yes and no.

In your opinion, would you say it requires a military sniper's skill to hit a target that is moving away from you at 5 mph from 140 feet away on one of three tries? I'd like to take a crack at that. I bet I could do it.

The testimony shows he was seen on the first floor at noon or shortly after. Did you read the information presented? He was not only downstairs, he was in a room and in a location in the room which would have required him to come into the room from the 1st floor, less than 90 seconds after the last shot and was not looking agitated or out of breath.

Seems the time is shrinking and the distance is growing with every post. Although, I'm popping in here from time to time while working. So I apologize for not reading the information in more detail.

So how long do you figure it takes a man to briskly walk down 5 flights of stairs and traverse across a floor? Is it utterly impossible to imagine Oswald, a guy who appeared to be in pretty decent shape, to accomplish this feat in 90 seconds?

There are so many layers of the onion to peel away it never seems to end. I'm not sure at this point anyone really knows the full story.

Only if you think of it as a conspiracy. If you believe Oswald acted alone, it's actually pretty simple.

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Yes and no.

What does that mean?
In your opinion, would you say it requires a military sniper's skill to hit a target that is moving away from you at 5 mph from 140 feet away on one of three tries?
If you want to insure you get a kill shot, yes. Or at least someone with years of hunting experience.
I'd like to take a crack at that. I bet I could do it.
In just three shots, never having shot from that location and at that target before? I'm not talking about you practicing for a while and then taking your three shots. No, first time out you shoot and kill the target.
Seems the time is shrinking and the distance is growing with every post. Although, I'm popping in here from time to time while working. So I apologize for not reading the information in more detail.
The first time I said LESS than two minutes, this time I simply put it closer to what the testimony says. Read the document, it's all there.
So how long do you figure it takes a man to briskly walk down 5 flights of stairs and traverse across a floor? Is it utterly impossible to imagine Oswald, a guy who appeared to be in pretty decent shape, to accomplish this feat in 90 seconds?
It's more than just walking down the stairs. According to testimony, the sniper had to get out of a tight spot that would require him to slip through a tight space between two stacks of book boxes, walk to the far side of the room and carefully hide the rifle, then walk down six flights, to the first floor and then back up to the lunch room in the second floor, and not be even slightly winded.

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What does that mean?

It means yes I have fired a rifle and no I have not fired one at a moving target.

If you want to insure you get a kill shot, yes. Or at least someone with years of hunting experience.

So you're saying only a seasoned hunter or a military qualified sniper could successfully hit a target moving away at 5 mph from 140 feet away one out of three times? I just don't see how that's a terribly challenging shot for someone with military training and a scoped rifle.

In just three shots, never having shot from that location and at that target before? I'm not talking about you practicing for a while and then taking your three shots. No, first time out you shoot and kill the target.

Yes. I'd like to try it. I bet it would take me maybe 5 shots to do it, and I don't have military training. Like I've been saying, I really don't think it's that terribly difficult of a shot.

The first time I said LESS than two minutes, this time I simply put it closer to what the testimony says. Read the document, it's all there.

It's more than just walking down the stairs. According to testimony, the sniper had to get out of a tight spot that would require him to slip through a tight space between two stacks of book boxes, walk to the far side of the room and carefully hide the rifle, then walk down six flights, to the first floor and then back up to the lunch room in the second floor, and not be even slightly winded.

I'm reading the document now. The first thing that popped into my mind is this: what am I reading? Where is this taken from? How do I know the information is correct?

I read the part where Baker confronted Oswald on the second floor, and I didn't see anything about him not being "even slightly winded", but maybe it's covered later on.

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It means yes I have fired a rifle and no I have not fired one at a moving target.

Since you have a rifle (is it bolt action?), I would suggest you go out sometime soon and shoot at a moving target. I think you'll find it's not quite as easy as you think.
So you're saying only a seasoned hunter or a military qualified sniper could successfully hit a target moving away at 5 mph from 140 feet away one out of three times? I just don't see how that's a terribly challenging shot for someone with military training and a scoped rifle.
Yes. Think about it. Hunters who shoot at moving targets usually use shot guns with buckshot, not slugs. Why? Because you get a nice "cone" that expands out with distance, making it more likely you will hit the target. Most hunters that hunt with a rifle, wait for their target to become stationary to improve the chances of a hit.
Yes. I'd like to try it. I bet it would take me maybe 5 shots to do it, and I don't have military training. Like I've been saying, I really don't think it's that terribly difficult of a shot.
Like I said, I don't think you will find it as easy as you think. There's a reason why military forces use full or semi-automatic weapons. Volume of fire. That means you shoot as many rounds as possible at your target (which if it is smart is running and weaving looking for cover) to try to insure at least one hit.
I'm reading the document now. The first thing that popped into my mind is this: what am I reading? Where is this taken from? How do I know the information is correct?

I read the part where Baker confronted Oswald on the second floor, and I didn't see anything about him not being "even slightly winded", but maybe it's covered later on.

Here you go:

Officer Baker was more explicit under similar questioning: Rep. Boggs: When you saw him [Oswald] . . ., was he out of breath, did he appear to have been running or what?

Mr. Baker: It didn't appear that to me. He appeared normal you know.

Rep. Boggs: Was he calm and collected?

Mr. Baker: Yes, sir. He never did say a word or nothing. In fact, he didn't change his expression one bit.

Mr. Belin: Did he flinch in anyway when you put the gun up . . .?

Mr. Baker: No, sir. (3H252)

Source

BTW, this is explains where this information comes from:

A Note on Citations

References to the 26-volume Hearings Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy follow this form: volume number, H, page number; thus, for example, 4H165 refers to volume 4, page 165. Exhibits introduced in evidence before the Commission are designated CE and a number; CE399, for example, refers to the Commission's 399th exhibit. References to the Report of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1964) follow this form: R, page number; R150, for example indicates page 150 of the Report. Most references to the Commission's unpublished files deposited in the National Archives follow this form: CD, number: page number; CD5:260, for example, indicates page 260 of Commission Document 5.

So, that notation [3H252] at the end of the quote of Mr. Baker's testimony comes from Volume 3 of the Hearings Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, page 252.

Edited by IamsSon

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I read that they had found a palm print with a partial thumb print on a box in the room that supposedly Oswald shot JFK from but couldn't match it. No it was on a box so it couldn't have been there long and it wasn't Oswalds. Can't seem to find much on it now but there was a video explaining it that has been now removed.

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I read that they had found a palm print with a partial thumb print on a box in the room that supposedly Oswald shot JFK from but couldn't match it. No it was on a box so it couldn't have been there long and it wasn't Oswalds. Can't seem to find much on it now but there was a video explaining it that has been now removed.

If you follow the links I posted, one of the pages mentions that print.

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If you follow the links I posted, one of the pages mentions that print.

Thanks Iam I'll check out your links a bit more as I'm at work a lot and don't get the chance to really dig into all the info posted.

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TK do you know whats a 'patsy' ?

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Since you have a rifle (is it bolt action?), I would suggest you go out sometime soon and shoot at a moving target. I think you'll find it's not quite as easy as you think.

I didn't say I own a rifle. I have shot a rifle. And I understand that in order to hit a moving target you have to lead it a bit. I also understand a target moving at 5 mph away from you barely has to be led at all.

Yes. Think about it. Hunters who shoot at moving targets usually use shot guns with buckshot, not slugs. Why? Because you get a nice "cone" that expands out with distance, making it more likely you will hit the target. Most hunters that hunt with a rifle, wait for their target to become stationary to improve the chances of a hit.

I am not a hunter, but my entire family is. Hunters generally don't shoot at moving targets. They usually wait until the animal is stationary before taking the shot. This is getting off-subject, but for your argument to be true, bow hunting would be non-existent.

Hitting a target with a single round really isn't as difficult as you're making it seem here.

Like I said, I don't think you will find it as easy as you think. There's a reason why military forces use full or semi-automatic weapons. Volume of fire. That means you shoot as many rounds as possible at your target (which if it is smart is running and weaving looking for cover) to try to insure at least one hit.

Yes, but that's completely beside the point, unless you're trying to convince me the only way a person can hit a target with a gun is to spray bullets all over the place and hope to hit it. No disrespect, but that's silly.

Here you go:

Source

BTW, this is explains where this information comes from:

So, that notation [3H252] at the end of the quote of Mr. Baker's testimony comes from Volume 3 of the Hearings Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, page 252.

I'm sorry that I haven't gotten more into this in detail. I want to compare this to other testimony and evidence in order to form an opinion. I still don't understand where this is taken from, but it seems to want to prove the Warren Commission wrong, which tells me it's not an unbiased source.

If Oswald truly did appear on the second floor only seconds after the shots were fired and didn't appear out of breath at all, I would certainly agree that sounds fishy. Since this case is over 40 years old, and Oswald has never been exonerated, I think there's more to the story.

Also, do you believe someone else fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD? I would say someone would have had to, if it drew the officer's attention. The question is if it was actually Oswald or not, correct?

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I didn't say I own a rifle. I have shot a rifle. And I understand that in order to hit a moving target you have to lead it a bit. I also understand a target moving at 5 mph away from you barely has to be led at all.

Sorry, for some reason I assumed rifle ownership. Remember, your standard was a regular person, not used to firing a weapon. Even hitting a stationary target at distance is hard for many people.
I am not a hunter, but my entire family is. Hunters generally don't shoot at moving targets. They usually wait until the animal is stationary before taking the shot. This is getting off-subject, but for your argument to be true, bow hunting would be non-existent.

Hitting a target with a single round really isn't as difficult as you're making it seem here.

I said the same thing as what you said (the bolded part). Nothing I said would make bow hunting non-existent.
Yes, but that's completely beside the point, unless you're trying to convince me the only way a person can hit a target with a gun is to spray bullets all over the place and hope to hit it. No disrespect, but that's silly.
Not at all. I'm saying hitting a moving target is not easy.
I'm sorry that I haven't gotten more into this in detail. I want to compare this to other testimony and evidence in order to form an opinion. I still don't understand where this is taken from, but it seems to want to prove the Warren Commission wrong, which tells me it's not an unbiased source.
I just showed you the information is coming from documents resulting from the Warren Commission or used by the Warren Commission.
If Oswald truly did appear on the second floor only seconds after the shots were fired and didn't appear out of breath at all, I would certainly agree that sounds fishy. Since this case is over 40 years old, and Oswald has never been exonerated, I think there's more to the story.
Of course there is! That's why some of us believe there is a conspiracy.
Also, do you believe someone else fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD? I would say someone would have had to, if it drew the officer's attention. The question is if it was actually Oswald or not, correct?
I do not believe Oswald shot. I believe there is plenty of evidence that he was not the shooter.

I didn't say I own a rifle. I have shot a rifle. And I understand that in order to hit a moving target you have to lead it a bit. I also understand a target moving at 5 mph away from you barely has to be led at all.

Sorry, for some reason I assumed rifle ownership. Remember, your standard was a regular person, not used to firing a weapon. Even hitting a stationary target at distance is hard for many people.
I am not a hunter, but my entire family is. Hunters generally don't shoot at moving targets. They usually wait until the animal is stationary before taking the shot. This is getting off-subject, but for your argument to be true, bow hunting would be non-existent.

Hitting a target with a single round really isn't as difficult as you're making it seem here.

I said the same thing as what you said (the bolded part). Nothing I said would make bow hunting non-existent.
Yes, but that's completely beside the point, unless you're trying to convince me the only way a person can hit a target with a gun is to spray bullets all over the place and hope to hit it. No disrespect, but that's silly.
Not at all. I'm saying hitting a moving target is not easy.
I'm sorry that I haven't gotten more into this in detail. I want to compare this to other testimony and evidence in order to form an opinion. I still don't understand where this is taken from, but it seems to want to prove the Warren Commission wrong, which tells me it's not an unbiased source.
I just showed you the information is coming from documents resulting from the Warren Commission or used by the Warren Commission.
If Oswald truly did appear on the second floor only seconds after the shots were fired and didn't appear out of breath at all, I would certainly agree that sounds fishy. Since this case is over 40 years old, and Oswald has never been exonerated, I think there's more to the story.
Of course there is! That's why some of us believe there is a conspiracy.
Also, do you believe someone else fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD? I would say someone would have had to, if it drew the officer's attention. The question is if it was actually Oswald or not, correct?
I do not believe Oswald shot. I believe there is plenty of evidence that he was not the shooter.

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TK do you know whats a 'patsy' ?

magicbulletl.png

Edited by SolarPlexus

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I have to agree with IamsSon. I've shot many rounds with many types of rifles, shotguns, and pistols.

Hitting a moving target can be a very difficult thing to do. Hitting a stationary object can be a difficult thing to do.

There are just so many things that are involved. Distance, windage, ammo type, lead time, rifle type, mental and physical conditions... Take a look at the show TOP SHOT for instance. These guys are decent shooters and many had a hard time firing their weapon of choice in a stressful/timed situation at stationary objects at reasonable distances.

I'm not saying it is impossible but just being trained in the military or even a sharp shooter does not by any means make it an easy shot especially under that kind of pressure.

I don't find the lone gunman that hard to believe however its all the shenanigans leading up to the assassination I find interesting.

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oswald was to supposed to have shot from up in the building. would a rifle have to be calibrated if shooting downwards due to different gravity effects on the bullet compared to a horizontal shot?

if so, it would be unlikely that oswald would have done this rifle calibration, given he didn't plan much of a getaway.

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IamsSon:

I'm digging through the testimony of Marrion Baker to the Warren Commission Here, and it seems the article you sourced didn't tell the entire story.

First of all, the article seems to want to point to the fact that Oswald didn't seem startled in any way, but as I recall from the footage I've seen, he never seemed startled throughout the whole process of being booked and supposedly falsely accused. I just don't see how this is relevant.

Next the article mentions a 90 second window of time for Officer Baker to travel from his motorcycle to the second floor. This number came from tests he ran on March 20, in which he did it once in 90 seconds and another in which he did it in 75. However:

Mr. BELIN - You mentioned the relationship between what we did on March 20 and what actually occurred on November 22. Would you estimate that what we did on March 20 was the maximum or the minimum as for the time you took?

Mr. BAKER - I would say it would be the minimum.

Mr. BELIN - For instance, on March 20 did we do anything about trying to get through any people on the front steps of the building at all? Did we slow down at all for that?

Mr. BAKER - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Did we slow down at all on March 20 for the time it took you to look over the scene as to what was happening in the area down Elm Street and the Parkway?

Mr. BAKER - No, sir.

It moves on from there. I would have liked to hear how much time he would have added to it due to the items mentioned above and also to speak to Mr. Truly, get him to take him to the elevator, and also to wait for the elevator. He testified that Mr. Truly hollered twice for the elevator to descend, but it never did, so they took the stairs up. There was no mention whether or not they factored this into the test.

It goes on to say they timed a descent from the 6th floor to the (assuming) 2nd floor lunchroom, and it took them 1 minute 18 seconds the first try and 1 minute 14 seconds the second try:

Mr. BELIN - Did we make any or do any stopwatch tests about any route from the southeast corner of the sixth floor down to the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; we made two test runs.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Do you remember what the route was?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; we started on the sixth floor on the east side of the building.

Mr. BELIN - All right.

Mr. BAKER - We walked down the east wall.

Mr. BELIN - We started at that particular corner?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; we started in the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN - All right. We walked down the east wall, you say?

Mr. BAKER - That is right.

Mr. BELIN - All right, then where did we go?

Mr. BAKER - To the north wall and then we walked down the north wall to the west side of where the stairs was.

Mr. BELIN - All right, we walked from the southeast corner to the northeast corner?

Mr. BAKER - That is right.

Mr. BELIN - Then along the northeast corner, around the elevators, do you remember who was with us when we did this?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. There was, it seems to me like his name was John--anyway, he was a Secret Service man.

Mr. BELIN - John Howlett.

Mr. BAKER - John Howlett. That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Did Mr. Howlett simulate anyone putting a gun in any particular place?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BELIN - And then what did we do when we got to the where did he do that, do you remember?

Mr. BAKER - That would be as we approached the stairway, there were some cases of books on the left- hand side there.

Mr. BELIN - All right. And Secret Service Agent Howlett went over to these books and leaned over as if he were putting a rifle there?

Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did he do?

Mr. BAKER - Then we continued on down the stairs.

Mr. BELIN - To the lunchroom?

Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Do you remember how long that took?

Mr. BAKER - The first run with normal walking took us a minute and 18 seconds.

Mr. BELIN - What about the second time?

Mr. BAKER - And the second time we did it at a fast walk which took us a minute and 14 seconds.

I understand there is an argument that Oswald supposedly did not take these stairs, however, and I will have to dig into that at another time, as once again I am pressed for time.

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I'm not saying it is impossible but just being trained in the military or even a sharp shooter does not by any means make it an easy shot especially under that kind of pressure.

I don't think it was an easy shot, per se. But I also don't think it's as difficult a shot as what it's being made out to be. I'll have to look into it further when I have more time.

Also, I've been persistent in mentioning three shots were taken in total, with only one hitting the target. This indicates nervousness and pressure. And Oswald did seem like a collected, calm type of guy as I mentioned earlier.

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IamsSon:

I'm digging through the testimony of Marrion Baker to the Warren Commission Here, and it seems the article you sourced didn't tell the entire story.

First of all, the article seems to want to point to the fact that Oswald didn't seem startled in any way, but as I recall from the footage I've seen, he never seemed startled throughout the whole process of being booked and supposedly falsely accused. I just don't see how this is relevant.

Not only that he was not startled, but what is important here is that he wasn't out of breath or agitated.
Next the article mentions a 90 second window of time for Officer Baker to travel from his motorcycle to the second floor. This number came from tests he ran on March 20, in which he did it once in 90 seconds and another in which he did it in 75. However:
The article goes into detail on why the author believes the time was still less than two minutes.
It moves on from there. I would have liked to hear how much time he would have added to it due to the items mentioned above and also to speak to Mr. Truly, get him to take him to the elevator, and also to wait for the elevator. He testified that Mr. Truly hollered twice for the elevator to descend, but it never did, so they took the stairs up. There was no mention whether or not they factored this into the test.

It goes on to say they timed a descent from the 6th floor to the (assuming) 2nd floor lunchroom, and it took them 1 minute 18 seconds the first try and 1 minute 14 seconds the second try:

I understand there is an argument that Oswald supposedly did not take these stairs, however, and I will have to dig into that at another time, as once again I am pressed for time.

The testimony presented to the Warren Commission included testimony that the rifle was not merely placed behind the book boxes, but that there was obvious work done to keep the rifle from being easily visible and was only seen once some boxes were actually moved.

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I don't think it was an easy shot, per se. But I also don't think it's as difficult a shot as what it's being made out to be. I'll have to look into it further when I have more time.

Also, I've been persistent in mentioning three shots were taken in total, with only one hitting the target. This indicates nervousness and pressure. And Oswald did seem like a collected, calm type of guy as I mentioned earlier.

Actually, there were two hits. One shot hit Kennedy in the throat, and then another hit his head. There is sound evidence that suggest more than three shots. In fact, the United States House Select Committee on Assassinations concluded there were at least four shots, with the assassin at the School Book Depository firing the first, second, and fourth shots. Source

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Scapegoating

Look at me im Lee Harvey Oswald baa baa

jfkbase.png

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Actually, there were two hits. One shot hit Kennedy in the throat, and then another hit his head. There is sound evidence that suggest more than three shots. In fact, the United States House Select Committee on Assassinations concluded there were at least four shots, with the assassin at the School Book Depository firing the first, second, and fourth shots. Source

Yes, but since Oswald (or, the shooter) probably was aiming at Kennedy's head and not his throat, I would consider the second shot a miss.

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Yes, but since Oswald (or, the shooter) probably was aiming at Kennedy's head and not his throat, I would consider the second shot a miss.

I respectfully disagree. There is no way to determine where specifically the shooter at the School Book Depository was aiming, but we can determine he was shooting at President Kennedy, so we know two of his shots hit the President (many of us believe there were actually two shots that hit his head).

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I respectfully disagree. There is no way to determine where specifically the shooter at the School Book Depository was aiming, but we can determine he was shooting at President Kennedy, so we know two of his shots hit the President (many of us believe there were actually two shots that hit his head).

So why did he shoot again?

I think it's a bit silly to think he was trying to hit Kennedy anywhere but the head. Why would he be trying to just wing him?

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So why did he shoot again?

I don't know. Do you?
I think it's a bit silly to think he was trying to hit Kennedy anywhere but the head. Why would he be trying to just wing him?

I don't know and since he was assassinated before going to trial, we will never know.

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Theres a new tv show over here in the Uk this week on the history channel i think, it's looking at new police tape recordings of mob members at the time and conversations they had talking of the Kennedy killing in detail, looks interesting.

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I don't know. Do you?

Yes. Because he didn't hit him in the head on the second shot, so he took a bit more time and lined up the last shot more precisely and squeezed the trigger.

I know you'll say that since no one is on record saying this that "we'll never know", but you have to apply common sense at some point, right? Does anyone take up a rifle and set out to wound the president? Of course not.

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