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Still Waters

Boy, 16, allowed to become a woman but judge

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A schoolboy has been given permission to start changing into a woman - provided he has his sperm frozen in case he decides to 'father' children some time in the future.

The extraordinary case has emerged in Australia where a female judge in the Family Court has given the 16-year-old boy the go-ahead to start drug treatment in the first steps to his conversion into womanhood.

Judge Linda Dessau said the teenager, who is mildly autistic, was mature enough to know what he wanted - and he had the support of his parents, six specialists and a lawyer.

Sydney's Daily Telegraph reported today that the boy, identified only as 'O', comes from a loving family who 'adore and respect him'.

He also had the support of his 14-year-old sister, whose clothes he has been secretly dressing up in.

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Whenever these types of cases come up, all I have to add is my 'two cents'.

I'm 16 and while I definitely don't want a sex change, I do know that I change my mind about things on a regular basis. Things I wanted six months, or a year ago, I really don't want now. Hell, things I wanted five minutes ago I'm not interested in now.

Take this and make me choose A-levels, and very soon what I want to do at uni which will probably effect me for the rest of my life and that scares the hell out of me - I have no idea what type of person I'll be in five or ten years, and whether I'm going to look back on my decisions now and be happy or regret them.

So, I don't think he should have been told no, I think he should have been made to wait.

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Whenever these types of cases come up, all I have to add is my 'two cents'.

I'm 16 and while I definitely don't want a sex change, I do know that I change my mind about things on a regular basis. Things I wanted six months, or a year ago, I really don't want now. Hell, things I wanted five minutes ago I'm not interested in now.

Take this and make me choose A-levels, and very soon what I want to do at uni which will probably effect me for the rest of my life and that scares the hell out of me - I have no idea what type of person I'll be in five or ten years, and whether I'm going to look back on my decisions now and be happy or regret them.

So, I don't think he should have been told no, I think he should have been made to wait.

:nw: You got it in a nutshell! :tu:

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Whenever these types of cases come up, all I have to add is my 'two cents'.

I'm 16 and while I definitely don't want a sex change, I do know that I change my mind about things on a regular basis. Things I wanted six months, or a year ago, I really don't want now. Hell, things I wanted five minutes ago I'm not interested in now.

Take this and make me choose A-levels, and very soon what I want to do at uni which will probably effect me for the rest of my life and that scares the hell out of me - I have no idea what type of person I'll be in five or ten years, and whether I'm going to look back on my decisions now and be happy or regret them.

So, I don't think he should have been told no, I think he should have been made to wait.

:tu: Well, that about covers it.

turnoutthelights.jpg

Nibs

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Whenever these types of cases come up, all I have to add is my 'two cents'.

I'm 16 and while I definitely don't want a sex change, I do know that I change my mind about things on a regular basis. Things I wanted six months, or a year ago, I really don't want now. Hell, things I wanted five minutes ago I'm not interested in now.

Take this and make me choose A-levels, and very soon what I want to do at uni which will probably effect me for the rest of my life and that scares the hell out of me - I have no idea what type of person I'll be in five or ten years, and whether I'm going to look back on my decisions now and be happy or regret them.

So, I don't think he should have been told no, I think he should have been made to wait.

I believe in letting people make mistakes. 16 is old enough to start learning that, at least the judge is making sure he has some sperm on ice.

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It's fair saying he's 16, he isn't sure, but he isn't an idiot.

You know, if you really think about it, if you're gonna want a new games console, that you're still gonna be happy with it or not in years to come.

A sex change isn't the same as trivial things like 'do I want those shoes now or in a few weeks?'. It's mucher deeper and this boy must have been thinking about it for years, saying 'well I'm xx age and I don't know' is a stupid answer, you're not him, you're not thinking of a sex change, you don't feel uncomfortable being said gender to the point of wanting a sex change.

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It's fair saying he's 16, he isn't sure, but he isn't an idiot.

You know, if you really think about it, if you're gonna want a new games console, that you're still gonna be happy with it or not in years to come.

A sex change isn't the same as trivial things like 'do I want those shoes now or in a few weeks?'. It's mucher deeper and this boy must have been thinking about it for years, saying 'well I'm xx age and I don't know' is a stupid answer, you're not him, you're not thinking of a sex change, you don't feel uncomfortable being said gender to the point of wanting a sex change.

But, he shouldn't even be very sexually active at that age. He has plenty of time to experiment, without the raging hormones of a teenager, and without a procedure that is irreversable.

Edited by Michelle

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Whenever these types of cases come up, all I have to add is my 'two cents'.

I'm 16 and while I definitely don't want a sex change, I do know that I change my mind about things on a regular basis. Things I wanted six months, or a year ago, I really don't want now. Hell, things I wanted five minutes ago I'm not interested in now.

Take this and make me choose A-levels, and very soon what I want to do at uni which will probably effect me for the rest of my life and that scares the hell out of me - I have no idea what type of person I'll be in five or ten years, and whether I'm going to look back on my decisions now and be happy or regret them.

So, I don't think he should have been told no, I think he should have been made to wait.

Transgendered children, especially Male to Female suffer horribly when they are forced to go through puberty knowing they identify as a female. This isn't something that springs up on a whim. Children feel they have been born in the wrong body. They consider their sex organs to be "birth defects" and it is traumatic to suffer through growing hair, deepening of the voice and other things. Imagine your sexual identity, and imagine growing breasts as a boy or getting a deep voice and an erection as girl. It is about gender not sexuality.

The judge made the perfect decision. This shouldn't even be news.

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It's fair saying he's 16, he isn't sure, but he isn't an idiot.

You know, if you really think about it, if you're gonna want a new games console, that you're still gonna be happy with it or not in years to come.

A sex change isn't the same as trivial things like 'do I want those shoes now or in a few weeks?'. It's mucher deeper and this boy must have been thinking about it for years, saying 'well I'm xx age and I don't know' is a stupid answer, you're not him, you're not thinking of a sex change, you don't feel uncomfortable being said gender to the point of wanting a sex change.

Thank you. Thank you for being so stereotypical.

Did you read the rest of my post, past the part where I said my age?

I'm not talking about games consoles, or shoes, I'm saying that in ten or so years where you change from a teenager into an adult, you can become a completely different person.

I'm not a total idiot, and don't address me as such, please. I'm aware that it's not been a whimsical decision, he hasn't one day decided he wants to be a woman, but I also think he should experience being a man, as Michelle said without all the raging hormones that go hand in hand with growing up. After that point I believe he should be free to choose to become a woman, as he'll be much more in control of himself and know himself better.

I'm sorry, but to me his actions don't speak of someone mature enough to make such a big decision as that.

Wickian, I see what you're saying, but I feel a sex change is a pretty big mistake he'd learn from. If I recall correctly, there was a case here in the UK of the judge deciding that the boy in this case had to live as a woman for a year before being allowed to start the permanent sex change process. I feel something along these lines would be a more appropriate decision. Though I do agree that it was a good call on the part of the judge to ensure he has his sperm frozen before going any further.

Pickletoes, I also understand what you're saying, I never claimed that he wanted to change his gender on a whim, I just feel that such a big step as a young age could end in a decision he will regret for the rest of his life. He isn't even old enough to have experienced life as a man yet. At least people who decide to have a sex change when they're in their 20's or 30's know what it's like to be the sex they were born as, and can make the educated decision to change.

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Honestly you have no idea what you are talking about. I'd recommend watching this video that 20/20 did on transsexual children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utpam0IGYac

Once you go through puberty it is very difficult to undo it. But you give a transsexual the change to have a normal life by allowing them to change as soon as possible.

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I apologize if understanding a topic better than you seems offensive. I am just trying to extend information to you. Studies show that most transsexuals never change their mind later on. There have been cases of course. This is why if you read the original article it shows that medical experts are needed to diagnose the situation.

It is usually a long long time of suffering for the child. I posted the link for you which is about an hour long and it doesn't look as though you actually watched it since you posted a reply about 35 minutes after I posted.

This diagnosis is extraordinarily rare and not usually the same thing as gender confusion. I'd encourage you to watch the entire 20/20 video. It has a lot of great information.

:tu:

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The young person is 16. That is not generally old enough to make life changing decisions.

Yes, give the child counseling. Give the child acceptance. Allow the child to explore the idea.

I see that one opinion is that being able to transform gender gives an adolescent an easier time adjusting. I find that hard to believe. Unless the family is willing to move to another area and allow the child to exist strictly as the opposite sex, the child is going to face some horrendous challenges.

I see the statement that studies show that most transsexuals do not change their mind over time. Link?

Are there any studies showing how many 16 year old children who are allowed to do this change their mind?

Here is a brief PDF showing average ages and the fact that over 83% experience abuse of some kind, over 40% experience employment discrimination and 30% experience physical abuse.

I don't know many 30+ year olds that are ready to handle that much less a 16 year old no matter how much support they have.

Here is a good source for all types of transgender information.

This kid may make it. This kid may be making the correct choice but this kid isn't considered old enough to drink, vote or make their own medical decisions at 16.

Counsel the kid. Support the kid. Don't let the child make changes to their body that cannot be undone.

Seriously, I agree with Queen.Overthink. MOST 16 year old children are not mature enough to make this type of life changing decision.

Nibs

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I apologize if understanding a topic better than you seems offensive. I am just trying to extend information to you. Studies show that most transsexuals never change their mind later on. There have been cases of course. This is why if you read the original article it shows that medical experts are needed to diagnose the situation.

It is usually a long long time of suffering for the child. I posted the link for you which is about an hour long and it doesn't look as though you actually watched it since you posted a reply about 35 minutes after I posted.

This diagnosis is extraordinarily rare and not usually the same thing as gender confusion. I'd encourage you to watch the entire 20/20 video. It has a lot of great information.

:tu:

Not offended by the idea that you understand more on the subject than I do, offended by the way you phrased it. But I'm over it, I'd have a break down if I took everything on the Internet to heart. I'm usually not one to want to outright argue, I'd rather learn more about the topic at hand, though everyone else on here seems to think that 'discussion' means 'argument'. Also, I apologise as I think I was still a teeny bit defensive from another poster essentially saying that my opinion boiled down to me being indecisive over shoes. :rolleyes: I will check out the entire video though, thank you. :)

I notice that no one so far has made any mention of the boy's autism. Does anyone know how this might- if at all- affect his condition? The article on the Daily Mail website has it in the headline perhaps to attract more views, but the article barely mentions it save stating that he is 'mildly autistic'.

Edited by queen.overthink

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I notice that no one so far has made any mention of the boy's autism. Does anyone know how this might- if at all- affect his condition? The article on the Daily Mail website has it in the headline perhaps to attract more views, but the article barely mentions it save stating that he is 'mildly autistic'.

The boy suffers from mild Asperger's syndrome. I found another link -

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad-application/teenage-boy-to-swap-gender/story-fn6bfm6w-1225977496099

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I find it interesting that such an invasive surgery would be allowed for someone as young as 16. Nothing to do with if he's mentally up for it, but from the physical aspect.

When I was 16, my doctor was really leery of giving me a much needed knee replacement because my body hadn't finished growing yet, and so a surgery would have fixed me, but was unlikely to go for the best in the long run since I still would have developed after the surgery. Instead of facing more possible knee replacements, I opted to change my lifestyle and not get the first replacement. I'm not implying my knee and the decision to make a sex change are on par, just that doing serious surgery on a developing body can have it's own hazards down the road.

I would have to imagine that a 16 year old would already have some serious hormone action going on, requiring a boatload of therapy, and his body is still developing, which could cause some serious complications as her body finishes growing. I have a friend who has gone male to female as an adult, and she had to do years of therapy before, during, and after her surgery to help ensure that all went well. I can't imagine how much more difficult it would be for a person that is currently undergoing puberty.

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Not offended by the idea that you understand more on the subject than I do, offended by the way you phrased it. But I'm over it, I'd have a break down if I took everything on the Internet to heart. I'm usually not one to want to outright argue, I'd rather learn more about the topic at hand, though everyone else on here seems to think that 'discussion' means 'argument'. Also, I apologise as I think I was still a teeny bit defensive from another poster essentially saying that my opinion boiled down to me being indecisive over shoes. :rolleyes: I will check out the entire video though, thank you. :)

I notice that no one so far has made any mention of the boy's autism. Does anyone know how this might- if at all- affect his condition? The article on the Daily Mail website has it in the headline perhaps to attract more views, but the article barely mentions it save stating that he is 'mildly autistic'.

I used to be very very opposed to gender reassignment until I learned more about it. Back then I considered it self mutilation and felt that the person should learn to accept the body into which they were born and not have surgeries or whatnot.

When I actually met a person who had gender reassignment it changed my mind. In addition having known someone as a male for a very long time only to find out that they were actually born a woman was interesting. As I did research I found that we usually hear about the more exploitative and sensational versions of these stories. But many of the transgendered live quiet lives and people would never ever know they had not been born differently.

This is why early intervention is so important. There is a transsexual in our neighborhood up here. And she obviously can't afford the surgery and didn't understand what was really going on until she became a full fledged man after puberty. There is nothing she can do to hide the fact that she is physically a male. And it is heart wrenching to watch her suffering.

I could pm you some clips that might change your mind. I don't want to post them publicly since we get a lot of traffic on here. But it's very sad the way this is misconstrued in society.

Think of it more like those people who grow horrendous tumors on their faces or body. Would you deny them the treatment to have it removed simply because that is the way their body is naturally? Of course not. It's pretty much the same issue. It's only the taboo and sensitivity that people have about their sexual organs that makes it any different.

Edited by pickletoes

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The thread was over when queen.overthink (hey, there, how are you?) summed it up perfectly.

But heres my opinion:

That child is not trapped in the wrong body, hes trapped in the wrong family. First they brought him up so catastrophically hes been diagnosed with Aspergers (fancy name for being utterly shy and quite clumsy, not near real autism). Then they made a big deal out of his dressing up games. Wears sisters clothes... so what? I stomped around in my uncles boots, tore heads off my dolls, was aggressive when provoked, preferred animals to people, dug a hole once big enough to hide in it and refuse to get out of it :lol: ... and no one thought I was autistic or male.

Im aware of popular theory that gender and sex are not the same good, that makes this issue even more simple. We have our gender (set of psychological characteristics) and our sex (body attributes). Therefore its possible to have a female mind in male body and vice versa. Fine, why not. Nothing wrong with that, so why fix it then, if its not wrong?

If a body is healthy, its a crime to fix it.

Dress up any way you like, but leave your body as it is, for sanitys sake. Sex change is not just a serious surgery, its a life time need for intake of hormones the body has been deprived of and consequences of such damaging procedures. Whoever says its safe and not damaging to health is either very greedy or very stupid.

Reminds me of the epidemic of thyroid problems that recently broke out among young athletes. They take the malfunctioning thyroid out and young athlete is only taking hormones forever, long after the athletic career is over. But while the career is going on, its quite useful to have your hormones adjusted just how you like it. How clever.

Sacrifice your health and body integrity for few years of running around in circles. If you get to the finish first, maybe youll earn more than you will pay for various therapies, supplements and substitutes.

If it was my child, Id kill someone.

Rant over.

I used to be very very opposed to gender reassignment until I learned more about it. Back then I considered it self mutilation and felt that the person should learn to accept the body into which they were born and not have surgeries or whatnot.

When I actually met a person who had gender reassignment it changed my mind. In addition having known someone as a male for a very long time only to find out that they were actually born a woman was interesting. As I did research I found that we usually hear about the more exploitative and sensational versions of these stories. But many of the transgendered live quiet lives and people would never ever know they had not been born differently.

This is why early intervention is so important. There is a transsexual in our neighborhood up here. And she obviously can't afford the surgery and didn't understand what was really going on until she became a full fledged man after puberty. There is nothing she can do to hide the fact that she is physically a male. And it is heart wrenching to watch her suffering.

I could pm you some clips that might change your mind. I don't want to post them publicly since we get a lot of traffic on here. But it's very sad the way this is misconstrued in society.

Think of it more like those people who grow horrendous tumors on their faces or body. Would you deny them the treatment to have it removed simply because that is the way their body is naturally? Of course not. It's pretty much the same issue. It's only the taboo and sensitivity that people have about their sexual organs that makes it any different.

Psychological help, friends and family support, that sort of stuff can build up someones confidence and then theres no need for mutilations.

And do not compare healthy sex organ to horrendous tumors. Healthy organ is just that healthy organ. We need those. Just because its used for pleasure and reproduction doesnt mean its to be taken lightly.

Would you approve amputation of a healthy leg if a person has mental disorder that causes them to think their leg is their enemy? (Such disorder actually exists. Cant wait for trials.)

Edited by Helen of Annoy

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Again, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. I'm not trying to be snide, I know it sounds prissy when I say it like that. But really really really sad that people still think this way when there is so much information available to study. If it was my child I wouldn't hesitate to get him or her what was needed. I think it is tragic that young people kill themselves every day out of the pain that is created by people making comments like those on this thread. You can't "give your child Autism" any more than you can give your child Gender Identity Disorder.

You might also want to look into the work of Temple Grandin, if you you eat beef and you life in the US you probably are eating beef that comes from a system she designed. She's a high functioning austistic person who has Aspergers. Einstein had Aspergers too I'm pretty sure.

Researchers at Cambridge and Oxford universities believe both scientists displayed signs of Asperger's Syndrome.

Many people with Asperger's are often regarded as being eccentric. They sometimes lack social skills, are obsessed with complex topics and can have problems communicating.

This latest research suggests that Einstein, who is credited with developing the theory of relativity, and Newton, who discovered the laws of gravity, had these traits to varying degrees.

According to the researchers, Einstein showed signs of Asperger's from a young age.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2988647.stm

We should condemn his mother for screwing him up I guess. LOL ;)

Great Video by Temple Grandin, the intro is long so fast forward up to her when she begins speaking. At around 5:52 They also recently made a movie about her staring Claire Danes, really interesting.

Claire Danes movie annoncement

I have a mild case of Aspergers myself. It runs in the family. I hope I don't offend you by existing. I'll be sure to tell my parents how they have let you and the rest of society down by raising me all wrong.

:P:blush::lol:

One last thing, a leg is a completely different issue because it would create a handicap. A better example might be the outer ear? Would I cut that off? But ears are not integral to the make up of a person's identity. That is the issue at stake here.

Edited by pickletoes

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pickletoes,

You can give your child autism, because it’s a neurological disorder – probably hereditary, at least to some extent. Severely neglected and/or mistreated child can suffer from autism-like post traumatic disorder, etc.

Gender disorders are mental disorders. Not cured by surgery, unless some genius gets the lobotomy out of the outlawed closet, god forbid.

By your standards, I have Asperger's. But I’m not. I'm just having fun my way and I just have my way for doing anything. I also just despise most of people and consider them a waste of time most of the time... I like playing with them, though.

About your need to post Youtube clips... can you post Rammstein next time?

Ears are not integral? What if I have ear fetish? Can I collect them? That’s essential to my happiness. Let me collect ears or I kill myself.

Yeah, right...

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A tumor is a physical disorder.

Being transgendered is a psychological condition.

No one is saying that an adult that goes through a sexual reassignment surgery is wrong. The idea I see (and feel) is that 16 is too young for ANYONE (the child or it's parents) to be making that type of choice.

Nibs

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A tumor is a physical disorder.

Being transgendered is a psychological condition.

No one is saying that an adult that goes through a sexual reassignment surgery is wrong. The idea I see (and feel) is that 16 is too young for ANYONE (the child or it's parents) to be making that type of choice.

Nibs

The problem is that it is much much harder to go through reassignment surgery after puberty is complete. The deepening of the voice is one example. You can't undo that so transgenders have to affect their voice for the rest of their lives. Allowing a male face to complete puberty also leads to future surgeries to make the face look more effeminate. The physical muscle center of gravity and other issues are things that are effected by not having the surgery soon enough.

I fully understand the implications of a child wanting to do this on a whim. What I am saying, and if you watch the video you would see, is that in most of these cases the child identifies as the opposite gender from a very early age. It is a waste to have them grow to adulthood only to have to have much more surgery and pay much more money for something that they are definitely going to do.

It is a very rare condition. This isn't transvestite behavior. It is Gender Identity Disorder. Basically the person IS the opposite gender and the DNA coded the body the wrong match. You can change the body. You can't change the brain unless you are suggesting brainwashing which I really hope you are not.

If you wait to change the body it has limited results and causes even more psychological issues down the line. If you could "fix" the problem for your child completely wouldn't you?

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pickletoes,

You can give your child autism, because it’s a neurological disorder – probably hereditary, at least to some extent. Severely neglected and/or mistreated child can suffer from autism-like post traumatic disorder, etc.

Gender disorders are mental disorders. Not cured by surgery, unless some genius gets the lobotomy out of the outlawed closet, god forbid.

By your standards, I have Asperger's. But I’m not. I'm just having fun my way and I just have my way for doing anything. I also just despise most of people and consider them a waste of time most of the time... I like playing with them, though.

About your need to post Youtube clips... can you post Rammstein next time?

Ears are not integral? What if I have ear fetish? Can I collect them? That’s essential to my happiness. Let me collect ears or I kill myself.

Yeah, right...

It's sad to see you think something so devastating to other human beings is something to joke about.

I posted informational clips as a suggestion of material that is interesting to explore. Again I apologize for posting information. I didn't mean to offend you.

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The problem is that it is much much harder to go through reassignment surgery after puberty is complete. The deepening of the voice is one example. You can't undo that so transgenders have to affect their voice for the rest of their lives. Allowing a male face to complete puberty also leads to future surgeries to make the face look more effeminate. The physical muscle center of gravity and other issues are things that are effected by not having the surgery soon enough.

I understand that. Fully. The visible physical attributes of male/female (not speaking about sexual organs) are a concern but should not be part of the determination.

If a 16 year old girl has small breasts and is ridiculed and has low self is the correct answer breast augmentation? No. The body hasn't finished developing. The child hasn't finished psychologically growing either. Give the girl counseling. Let her wear fake breasts for a time. Do NOT change her body.

I fully understand the implications of a child wanting to do this on a whim. What I am saying, and if you watch the video you would see, is that in most of these cases the child identifies as the opposite gender from a very early age. It is a waste to have them grow to adulthood only to have to have much more surgery and pay much more money for something that they are definitely going to do.

I have watched the video. I see a 20/20 series of some interviews. I am reading sites for transgendered BY transgendered. Discussions about what they will go through during the transformation. The many fears, frustrations, the anger and the suicides. I was reading www.transgenderlaw.com looking at the rights violations that are faced on a regular basis.

Preserving the mental health of an individual doesn't have a dollar amount value. If the young person doesn't change their mind from when they are 16 years old to when they are of legal age then they would do nothing but benefit from a loving family, strong counseling and doctors that have worked with them for years.

It is a very rare condition. This isn't transvestite behavior. It is Gender Identity Disorder. Basically the person IS the opposite gender and the DNA coded the body the wrong match. You can change the body. You can't change the brain unless you are suggesting brainwashing which I really hope you are not.

I know exactly what a transvestite is vs transgender. No, I do NOT (and never have) suggested any type of brainwashing.

If you wait to change the body it has limited results and causes even more psychological issues down the line. If you could "fix" the problem for your child completely wouldn't you?

This isn't a matter of "fixing" a child. This is a matter of giving a child the best possible chance at a happy future. The child isn't broken, the child needs love, counseling and TIME.

Nibs

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It's sad to see you think something so devastating to other human beings is something to joke about.

I posted informational clips as a suggestion of material that is interesting to explore. Again I apologize for posting information. I didn't mean to offend you.

My Asperger likes it sarcastic. As a fellow sufferer, you must understand and you must accept my own rules, created by my own whims, or I’ll be sad and I might kill myself.

Explore that.

Make a clip about me. Force everyone to cry over my sad, futile existence... arrange for surgery to fix it. Cut my flesh into shape of happiness.

There’s no pill for happiness, there’s no surgery to make you loved, there’s no facial cream that will postpone death. Really, do explore that.

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There is also no pill that creates understanding.

Or empathy.

I find these conversations annoying, because I don't understand how 'normal' people can't understand that their gender identity is basically fixed. What would a woman do if she lost all her womanly features and grew male ones instead? Would she think it was horrifying or just go 'ho-hum, guess I'm a guy now'? Sure, counseling would be great, but putting your body back the way it belongs would be better. If I suddenly grew a penis, I would want it removed. It doesn't belong there. Because I'm a woman.

Am I likely to think of myself as a man with enough counseling and love? Doubt it. If I did, it would be brainwashing.

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