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Persia

Who Wrecked the Balkans

154 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Martic-order1995.jpg

Helen this doucment is order of Serbian leader Milan Martić ,on 4th August 1994 , in which he ordered Serbs to leave Croatia.

On another hand Tudjman was calling them to stay in their country Croatia.

Yes it was tragedy but then again we see who made that tragedy. Serbs.

And that peacefull Serbs in so called Krajna(paramilitary in Croatia) have had 200 tanks. Nothing more nothing less.

Same as legal army of Croatia -HV. Just for record.

Edited by the L

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Who? Ah, the delusional chick from the OP... who cares :D

Yes. That is right word but I wanted to stay polite. Oh Serbs have nothing with war in ex-yu it was Americans fault.

She is so wrong on so many level.

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Posted (edited)

I agree with all except Bogumils. When Ottoman Empire came Bogumils were in small number. BiH was populated by Croats and Serbs. They were main population in BiH. Number of Bogumils was irrelvant. It was Bosniaks theory that their ancestors are Bogumils. Well they are but in very very small percentage. Its like Albanians are saying that Illyrians were they ancestors. Which is wrong.

Its like American claim that native americans were they ancestors. They are but in what number? Guess what? Recently I heared hypothesis how Illyrians were Bosniaks ancestors. :w00t:

Hmm, no.

I think the Native American analogy doesn’t work here.

First, we (nations in this region, namely Croats, Bosnians and Serbs) are very similar mixtures of the same genomes, descendants of same tribes in similar ratios. There is no natives/newcomers distinction over here, since the true natives (Illyrians and Celts) were assimilated, and each of us carries at least some of their chromosomes.

(Reminds me of very amusing discussions regarding last Y chromosome research that confirmed South Slavic nations are 1/3 to ¼ European natives, Illyrians and Celts, the rest is Slavic and Germanic, I won't touch Turkish issue this time... hehehe... which is triumph of alikeness for some and triumph of difference for others :lol: )

So, I agree with odas. The theory of minor Bogumil presence in Bosnia was forced by Christian churches (Catholic and Orthodox) and later Croatian and Serbian expansionist nationalism.

Silly thing is, you don’t need religion to homogenize a nation, but extremists are never too clever people, they always use the old and simple tricks. Join us or else... yeah, right. I’m doing the else my whole life and I’m still alive.

It’s popular to limit certain nation to one religion, but that’s relatively new and totally counterproductive concept.

Medieval Bosnia was Bogumil, home of the most beautiful heresy ever, mother of Catharism.

“Dobri krstjani” (good Christians) or “dobri ljudi” (good people), that will later be Occitan “bonhomme” (good man), was term used for Bogumils, though it sounds like it was meant for generally anyone who was not an *******.

The exact dates and ways of spreading the Bogumil teaching is debatable, but its leading role in pre-Ottoman Bosnia is the fact.

Martic-order1995.jpg

Helen this doucment is order of Serbian leader Milan Martić ,on 4th August 1994 , in which he ordered Serbs to leave Croatia.

On another hand Tudjman was calling them to stay in their country Croatia.

Yes it was tragedy but then again we see who made that tragedy. Serbs.

And that peacefull Serbs in so called Krajna(paramilitary in Croatia) have had 200 tanks. Nothing more nothing less.

Same as legal army of Croatia -HV. Just for record.

Thanks, it’s there for all to see. All who can read Cyrillic and understand Serbian, that is :D

So it says (literal translation, everything in brackets is my comment, three fullstops mark the unreadable parts):

Republic of Srpska Krajina

Supreme Defence Council

Knin, August 04th 1995

16.45

Number 2-3113-1/95

Due to recent situation development (...) open general aggression of Republic of Croatia on Republic of Srpska Krajina and after first initial successes in defence, the large part of territories of North Dalmatia and part of Lika are in danger, therefore

WE DESIDE (they probably meant “decide”, it reads “ohlučujemo” instead of “odlučujemo”)

1. To start (...) evacuation of all population unfit for combat out of opštine (counties) Knin, Benkovac, Obrovac, Drniš i Gračac.

2. Evacuation is to be conducted (...) according to prepared plans (...) direction Otrić towards Srb and Lapac.

3. For evacuation (...) has to be asked from UNPROFOR CommAND (I think whoever typed this was in a huRRY) with headquarters in Knin.

Knin, August 04th 1995

President of the Republic

Milan Martić

Signed at 17.20 on August 04th 1995 and classified under above code.

The source is probably one of books written by Croatian Serbs forced to exile by Milošević’s regime. I know for a fact that not every Serb was into this Greater Serbia crap, but they were all forced to pay the price. Only those who were on unoccupied Croatian teritorry could stay, because my freaking government, clumsy and unfit as it was, made it possible.

It would be highly interesting to see the statistic - what percentage of Serbs from Croatia left from parts that were not under Milošević's control. It would clear this issue once and for all, that's why such statistic is not made yet. But it will be if I ever rise to power :lol:

The tragedy is that Serbs in Croatia today have representatives who are professional Serbs and instead of working on hammering peaceful coexistence into average heads, work on inventing tensions because that’s what they live on.

If Serbs in Croatia would become simply Serbs in Croatia, like there are Hungarians or Czech or Italians or Slovenes or you name it in Croatia – what would make their politicians more special than others and what would thus give them more special benefits?

Edited by Helen of Annoy

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Posted (edited)

My analogy is fine. :devil:

What I was trying to tell is: That number of Bogumils were irrelevant when we talking about Bosniaks ancestors. Bosniaks were almost 95% Croats and Serbs that were changed they religion on Islam. Forced or gladly. When I said forced I always remember one old lady from middle Bosnia with tattoos of snow flakes and crosses on her hands. They get that tattooes when she was 1 years old. It was custom of middle Bosnia Croats that survived till today. When Ottomans came in Bosnia, Croats used to tattooed their children on hands with crosses and snow flakes. Because Turks didnt take them as they slaves if their have tattoos of cross or similar. Croats realized that and rest is history. Thats how they survived Islamization.

At least that what Croats in middle Bosnia said.

Here interesting motives they liked to tattoo.

tattoo1.jpg

35813101.jpg

I forgot the reasons why they took non Islamic girls is to produce young Janissary for Ottoman empire. And boys were taken to become Janissary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary

EDIT: On turkish Janissary means new soldiers. I must say that idea was- brilliant. From military perspective ofcourse.

From wiki

The first Janissary units were formed from prisoners of war and slaves, probably as a result of the sultan taking his traditional one-fifth share of his army's booty in kind rather than cash.[3] From the 1380s onwards, their ranks were filled under the devşirme system, where feudal dues were paid by service to the sultan.[3] The "recruits" were mostly Christian youths, reminiscent of Mamelukes.[1] Sultan Murad may have used futuwa groups as a model.

Initially the recruiters favoured Greeks (who formed the largest part of the first units) and Albanians (who also served as gendarmes), usually selecting about one boy from forty houses, but the numbers could be changed to correspond with the need for soldiers. Boys aged 14–18 were preferred, though ages 8–20 could be taken."[4] Recruits were sometimes gained through voluntarily accessions, as some parents were often eager to have their children enroll in the Janissary service that ensured them a successful career and comfort.[12]

As borders of the Ottoman Empire expanded, the devşirme was extended to include Bulgarians, Croats, Serbs, and later Romanians, Georgians, Poles, Ukrainians and southern Russians. The Janissaries first began enrolling outside the devşirme system during the reign of Sultan Murad III (1574-1595) and abandoned devşirme recruitment completely during the 17th century. After this period, volunteers were enrolled, mostly of Muslim origin.[10]

The Janissaries’ reputation increased to the point that by 1683, Sultan Mehmet IV abolished the devşirme, as increasing numbers of originally Muslim Turkish families had already enrolled their own sons into the force hoping for a lucrative career

Bah- they all dint know about tattoo trick like those Croats from middle Bosnia. :w00t:

Edited by the L

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My analogy is fine. :devil:

What I was trying to tell is: That number of Bogumils were irrelevant when we talking about Bosniaks ancestors. Bosniaks were almost 95% Croats and Serbs that were changed they religion on Islam. Forced or gladly. When I said forced I always remember one old lady from middle Bosnia with tattoos of snow flakes and crosses on her hands. They get that tattooes when she was 1 years old. It was custom of middle Bosnia Croats that survived till today. When Ottomans came in Bosnia, Croats used to tattooed their children on hands with crosses and snow flakes. Because Turks didnt take them as they slaves if their have tattoos of cross or similar. Croats realized that and rest is history. Thats how they survived Islamization.

At least that what Croats in middle Bosnia said.

L. I will start first with the Albanians. Albanians were a tribe of Illyrs. Some other tribes were Ardiaei,

Deretini, Cavi, Deuri and many more.

The first historical account of the tribe Albani was 150 AD documented in a work of Ptolmey.

Since you already tried to compare it with the Native Americans it is the same like with the tribes of Sioux, Apache, Blackfoot.....and so on. While they are different in tribes they are all the first known inhabitants of the Americas. Or, we also can put it this way, the Bavarians, the Hessens, the Pruss....were all German tribes nevertheles we call them all Germans. So, yes, the Albanians are descended from the Illyrs.

As for the Bogumils. You either unknowingly fall into the Serbian history trapp regarding Bosnia or it could be the Croatian version of it.

95% of midevel Bosnia was not Croats and Serbs but Bosnians with different religious views. Most of them were Bosnina Bogumils which had their own Bosinan Church. While many if not most of them had names simmilar to Croatian names their religion was Bogumils, which was considered a heretic religioun by both, the catholic and orthodox church (man, you guys gave us always a hard time for some reason). Bogumils called themslf the good christians, the good Bosniaks ( dobri bosnjani ). They even had their own scripture, the Bosnancica.

Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Kulini%C4%87

The Bosnian Church spread greatly across Bosnia and even further, throughout Croatia, southern Hungary and the Seaside and even went as far as Northern Italy and southern France during his reign. It became very illfamed in Rome and Buda - in the first because of its heretical teachings and opposings of the Roman Catholic Church, and in the latter because of its political influence amongst the Bosnians in Bosnia - which was a Hungarian vassalage. Stjepan's Bosnia was thus characterized as being half-Barbaric. Furious because of this, Pope Honorius III dispatched in 1221 his legate, Aconcius, to Bosnia, to determinate the status of the Bosnian heresy. Aconcius said that the Bogumils spread Bogumilism over there just as younglings are being breast-fed. The Pope complained to the Hungarian King Andrews and the Hungarian Bishoprics to destroy the Bosnian Bogomils, calling for a Crusade. King Andrews was fighting inner conflicts, so he could not heed the Papacy's callings. The Roman Catholic Archbishop of Kaločki, wanted to lead the Crusade against Bosnia if the Pope promised that Bosnia would be ecclesiastically subjected to him; and so the Pope asked him to keep his promise in 1225. That year by Pope's edict Bosnia, Soli and Usora was transferred to Bishop Ugrin of Kalocs' suzeiranity from the coastal Dalmatian bishoprics. The Archbishop negotiated with the ruler of Srem to launch a joint operation in Bosnia. The Archbishop dispatched John Angelo of Srem, the nephew of the Hungarian King and a Byzantine emigrant to lead a military attempt into Bosnia.

It is because of these anti-Bogumil activities Stjepan was deposed by the Bogumils in 1232, when a disorder caught Hungary. His throne was seized by Matej Ninoslav. He retired to his son, Sibislav, who ruled as Prince of Usora. There he died in 1236.

The story of the Bogumils is widely accepted by foreign historians, Germans, Italians, Austrians, Hungarians...but it is questiond and denied and fabricated by serbian "historians" and some Croatians.

The reason is the legitmet statehood of Bosnia as a seperate Kingdom, a country in it's (more or less) same borders as today. The bogumils, the Church of Bosnia, and the Bosnian Kings are proof of it's thousadn year independed statehood which undermines all efforts of it's neighbours to anex Bosnia and call Bosnia their own.

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Posted (edited)

@Odas

Im confused. Its not what I learned in school. Wait a minute. Acording to you:

Bogumils were nation? Faith?

Did they have had their kingdom? Empire?

What language they used to talk?

Is there any known maps of their "state"?

How come that they practice "christianity/gnosticism"?

On what territory they lived?

Did they have any special customs, traditions?

Is what you trying to tell me that Bosniaks were different Slaven tribe that came in Area of BiH?

About Albanians-thats whole new debate in which I dont want to participate. Anyway I highly disagree with you. Main reason why is that theory is popular is because of their language. And that is whole new and big debate. Im participating in one debate about it for half year on another forum. Remember that Illyrians were from Alps to ancient Greek. Then came Slavens. Ottomans. ...Who didnt came?

Just to take paralel. It like Croats on Zadar, Hvar.. called them Liburnians. Or Dalmatians called themselves Illyrian tribe Dalmatians, Or Istrians Histri?

Whole area is mix of different civilizations. And that Illyrians Albanians somehow survived pure is just SF to me. And on that area there were only Illyrian-Thraco tribes also Dacians. Fromm early day in that area is not just Illyrians. Also rfist written evidence of word Albanian came from 11 century.

For me it just way to much....We all have Illyrians blood in our selves but to call Illyrians our ancestors is funny.

Anyway I disagree. Do I need to say more then that is just hypothesis.

Recently I read that Albanians ancestors were Pelasgians. Cmon. :w00t: Whats next? Hittite origin? Cant wait...

Albanians are just albanians. They probably have Illyrian blood in themselves. Same as Croats, Serbs, Slovenians and Bosniaks. Oh yes Albanians have turkish blood in them, dacian, thracian, greek, slavens...

Thats why I love Archaeology and Antropology-no more myths.

@Helen

Those so called Celts were just Illyrians tribes.Japodes, Pannonians, Breuci, Scorisci.

For example Japodes according to Strabo: they have had celtic armor but that they have tattoos like Illyrians.

@Odas

How many Bogumils lived in Bosna before Turks came?

How many Croats?

How many Serbs?

Edited by the L

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@Odas

Im confused. Its not what I learned in school. Wait a minute. Acording to you:

Bogumils were nation? Faith?

Did they have had their kingdom? Empire?

What language they used to talk?

Is there any known maps of their "state"?

How come that they practice "christianity/gnosticism"?

On what territory they lived?

Did they have any special customs, traditions?

Is what you trying to tell me that Bosniaks were different Slaven tribe that came in Area of BiH?

@Odas

How many Bogumils lived in Bosna before Turks came?

How many Croats?

How many Serbs?

The Kingdom of medieval Bosnia - The State of Bosnia and Herzegovina

The Medieval Bosnian state is one of the oldest in Europe:

The Medieval Bosnian state was autonomous until it was conquered by the Turkish Ottoman Empire back in 1463, an invasion lead by a major historical figure, Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror.

The population was mainly affiliated with the Bogumil religion; they did not recognise rule by the Catholic Pope, nor did they recognise the Orthodox Church.

Before ultimately falling under Turkish rule, two major powerful forces were scrambling to take Bosnia: the Hungarian and the Turkish Empires. Placed in-between the hammer and the anvil, too small and too weak to defend itself, but also divided by religious intolerance, the Bosnian state finally fell under the Turkish Empire, which would continue its rule for the next 500 years.

Once the Bosnian kingdom fell, the last Bosnian royal dynasty also fell. Throughout its tumultuous history, even after the departure of the Turks, Bosnia would be ruled by many states, and various ideologies would refract across its territory.

Sarajevo professor, archeologist and historian Enver Imamovic, from the Faculty of Philosophy in Sarajevo, recently completed a genealogical tree of the Bosnian royal families. The project was presented to the public, attracting huge interest.

During its statehood, Bosnia’s ruling family was the Kotromanics. Imamovic’s tree shows all of the kings, queens, and their children — princesses and princes.

“Even before me, a number of historians clearly determined that the Kotromanic family dynasty is of fully domestic roots in Bosnia. They were our rulers, rooted in the early Middle Ages, on the territory of the present Central Bosnia, in the area surrounding the towns of Fojnica, Kresevo and Kiseljak,” Imamovic said.

“This area used to be called ‘royal land’ in the Middle Ages. This was royal property, and because the area was exceptionally rich in the Medieval period, involving mines of gold, silver, copper, iron and lead, this family first grew economically, and then politically. The kingdom expanded until the whole of Bosnia was unified,” he said.

The result of many years of research was presented in an artistic placard showing the history of Bosnia in the period spanning the past 700 years. Two academic painters from Sarajevo were also involved in the project.

The documents required to put the placard together came from the archives of Dubrovnik, Ankara, Italy, Germany, Austria, Hungary and Bulgaria.

“I spared [neither] effort nor money and I can see it has all paid off. We have a wonderful document, very significant, from the historical, political, educational and artistic aspect. I have been told that kindergartens are interested in purchasing this placard, because children want to see Bosnian princesses,” the professor said.

Coat of arms of the Kingdom of Bosnia during the reign King Tvrtko I of the Royal Family Kotromanić:

post-26495-0-82838700-1308582684_thumb.p

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Posted (edited)

Let me tell you truth:

Bogomils- number cca 80 000

Croats- 600 000

Serbs 70 000

Before Turks.

Bogomils were sect.

Odas, I must say you are subjective here.

Read this:

The first auspices of a Bosnian identity begun in the thirteenth century, when a Bosnian kingdom centred on the river Bosna emerged. However, it was not until the Ottoman occupation of Europe that Bosniaks became distinct from surrounding Slavs, as Islam's self-identifying role for the Bosniaks was similar to that played by Catholicism for the Croats and Orthodoxy for the Serbs.[31]

Many features of Bosniaks' biological, cultural and linguistic origins can be traced back to the Migration Period of the Early Middle Ages. It was then that the Slavs, a people from northeastern Europe, colonized the Eastern Roman Empire with their Avar allies and settled in the regions which now comprise modern-day Bosnia and Herzegovina. Here, they assimilated scattered remnants of the tribes generically referred to as Illyrians, who were the earliest attestable inhabitants of the region.

By wiki

I sure know who was Tvrtko Kotormanić.

Agree on that part but Bogomils theory is funny my friend.

The population was mainly affiliated with the Bogumil religion; they did not recognise rule by the Catholic Pope, nor did they recognise the Orthodox Church. :w00t:

Edited by the L

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Posted (edited)

Bogumils were christians who were not catholics or orthodox.

Bosnia was a nation, just like Croatia or Serbia.

Of course they had their Kingdom. I the peak Bosnia held much of Serbia and Croatia as far as Zadar. (historical fact).

There are numerous maps of Bosnia in medivel times.

In fact they had customs and traditions. Bogumil church had no pope but elders. Women, as oposed to catholicsm and orhthodoxie, were holding the same status as man in the bosnian church.

Yes. Bosnians were a different Slavic tribe. Even the serbian history could not deny it. According to their history the first slavic tribe to come to balkans was serbs, then croats and then the bosnian tribe.

Some would like to scratch this out but they can not.

L, Croats, Serbs and Bosnian Slavic tribe did not came to balkans as catholics, orthodox or bogumils. They came as pagans who with the time accepted christianity by a gentle push of Rome.

post-26495-0-99305900-1308582859_thumb.j

post-26495-0-78401400-1308582865_thumb.j

Edited by odas

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Posted (edited)

Odas you are clever and smart guy, openminded thats how I see you. Nobody say thing about Kingdom of Bosnia. But Bogomils hypothesis -that cant swallow.

Please help me to understand your point of view.

Please answer me these questions.

Bogumils were nation? Faith?

Did they have had their kingdom? Empire?

What language they used to talk?

Is there any known maps of their "state"?

How come that they practice "christianity/gnosticism"?

On what territory they lived?

Did they have any special customs, traditions?

Is what you trying to tell me that Bosniaks were different Slaven tribe that came in Area of BiH?

How many Bogumils lived in Bosna before Turks came?

How many Croats?

How many Serbs?

Yes Odas. What Im trying to tell you that todays Bosniaks were Slavens. Mostly Croats and Serbs then Bogomils. That took Islam.

Number of bogomils is 10%.

For Bosniaks slavic tribe in never heard. But Croat and Serb slavic tribe I am. Sorry Odas, please understand me. Trying to learn from you. You are glad to me and all....

Edited by the L

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Posted (edited)

I can go on and on and on...like the energy bunny. :w00t:

The bogumils:

They renounced all external rites and ceremonies, because they found God inside them. The movement of the Bogomil could keep nearly half a millennium in the Balkans.

The Bogomil were so, at least in their majority, not followers of a "radical" (Gnostic) dualism, which since time immemorial, the principles good and evil exist on equal footing. Rather, they represented a "moderate dualism," that God is the source of life and stronger than the evil will be defeated one day.

If the Bogomil is assumed to today is that they thought only of a sham existence of Jesus of Nazareth on the earth, and to a mock crucifixion ("Docetism"), then this is probably based on a misunderstanding: They believed that the inner core of the personality of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, namely God, not of this world and was therefore could not be killed.

Because they are in the Old Testament of the Bible were very many statements it with a loving God could not be reconciled, they rejected the book as widely recognized only the Psalms and the books of six prophets as given by God, but not for example the books of Moses, they were inspired by the devil for. The possibility that these books, like so many others, by the then priest caste had been falsified, they were obviously not familiar with - had yet to church the profound criticism of the text erased, for example, an Origen already many centuries earlier heretic and significant.

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.das-weisse-pferd.com/03_02/bogumilen.html&ei=zWb_TeXaJYSdgQfKkZ3eCw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DDie%2Bbogumilen%2Bin%2BBosnien%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1131%26bih%3D660%26prmd%3Divnsb

Edited by odas

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I can go on and on and on...like the energy bunny. :w00t:

The bogumils:

They renounced all external rites and ceremonies, because they found God inside them. The movement of the Bogomil could keep nearly half a millennium in the Balkans.

The Bogomil were so, at least in their majority, not followers of a "radical" (Gnostic) dualism, which since time immemorial, the principles good and evil exist on equal footing. Rather, they represented a "moderate dualism," that God is the source of life and stronger than the evil will be defeated one day.

If the Bogomil is assumed to today is that they thought only of a sham existence of Jesus of Nazareth on the earth, and to a mock crucifixion ("Docetism"), then this is probably based on a misunderstanding: They believed that the inner core of the personality of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, namely God, not of this world and was therefore could not be killed.

Because they are in the Old Testament of the Bible were very many statements it with a loving God could not be reconciled, they rejected the book as widely recognized only the Psalms and the books of six prophets as given by God, but not for example the books of Moses, they were inspired by the devil for. The possibility that these books, like so many others, by the then priest caste had been falsified, they were obviously not familiar with - had yet to church the profound criticism of the text erased, for example, an Origen already many centuries earlier heretic and significant.

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.das-weisse-pferd.com/03_02/bogumilen.html&ei=zWb_TeXaJYSdgQfKkZ3eCw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DDie%2Bbogumilen%2Bin%2BBosnien%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1131%26bih%3D660%26prmd%3Divnsb

You are skiping. Ignoring main questions.

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Posted (edited)

You are skiping. Ignoring main questions.

Which ones? Maybe you did not see my previous post, the last one on page 4.

Here it is again:

Bogumils were christians who were not catholics or orthodox.

Bosnia was a nation, just like Croatia or Serbia.

Of course they had their Kingdom. I the peak Bosnia held much of Serbia and Croatia as far as Zadar. (historical fact).

There are numerous maps of Bosnia in medivel times.

In fact they had customs and traditions. Bogumil church had no pope but elders. Women, as oposed to catholicsm and orhthodoxie, were holding the same status as man in the bosnian church.

Yes. Bosnians were a different Slavic tribe. Even the serbian history could not deny it. According to their history the first slavic tribe to come to balkans was serbs, then croats and then the bosnian tribe.

Here is good site if you are interested:

http://govtandeducationchat.reocities.com/Athens/troy/9892/bhhisto.html

Excerpt:

It was in Bosnia that the bogomils greatest development took place. In the twelfth century they were already very numerous there, and spread to Split (Spalato) and Dalmatia. Here they came into conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. Tile title of the rulers of Bosnia was Ban, the most eminent of these being Kulin Ban. In 1180 this ruler was addressed by the Pope as a faithful adherent of the Church, but by 1199 it was acknowledged that he and his wife and family and ten thousand Bosnians had joined the Bogomil or Patarene heresy, otherwise churches of believers, in Bosnia. Ninoslav, Prince of the Herzegovina, took the same stand, as did also the Roman Catholic Bishop of Bosnia. The country ceased to be Catholic and experienced a time of prosperity that has remained proverbial ever since. There were no priests, or rather the priesthood of all believers was acknowledged. The churches were guided by elders who were chosen by lot, several in each church, an overseer (called grandfather), and ministering brethren called leaders and elders. Meetings could be held in any house and the regular meeting-places were quite plain, no bells, no altar, only a table, on which might be a white cloth and a copy of the Gospels. A part of the earnings of the brethren was set aside for the relief of sick believers and of the poor and for the support of those who traveled to preach the Gospel among the unconverted.

Edited by odas

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Posted (edited)

I tought Bogomils were sect of gnostics.

Bogomils NEVER have their kingdom. For example when Turks came in Bosnia there was cca 70 000 Bogomils. 600 - 700 000 Croats. I dont see how kingdom of Bosnia was Bogomils.

Map of Bosnia. Not Bogomils.

Bogomils have their own rituals but they were not nation.

Bosniaks were different same as Istrians, Dalmatians, Slavonians in that time before Ottomans.

You didnt said what language used Bogomils?

How many Bogomils lived in Bosnia?

Sorry to be one to tell you but there is not Bosniaks slavic tribe. In Bosnia lived Illyrians. Then came Slavic tribes Croats Serbs. Bosnia was just geographic term. Bosnia was part of Croatia. In Bosnia lived Croats from day 1. All things change after Pacta Conventa and Arpadovići throne.

Im aware that there is now Bosniaks nation. But Bosnia nation become from Croats, Serbs. They were all chatolic, orthodox and bogomils.

When Turks came Croats were numerous in Bosnia. Then came Islam. ...as Islam's self-identifying role for the Bosniaks was similar to that played by Catholicism for the Croats and Orthodoxy for the Serbs.wiki. It is fact.

Also Slavic tribe Bosniaks never came. They never existed. Its new age myth.

I realy wonder why is hard to you to except your origin? Are you learn differnet?

Also do you know that Kotormanić were chatolics? Croats not Bogomils not Bosniaks.

EDIT: According to scribes of Franciscians, number of Croats when Ottomans came is 750 000. 70 000 Bogomils. 30 000 Serbs.

Edited by the L

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Posted (edited)

I think that you now realize that number of Bogomils is irelevant.

Bogomils were sect probably of Croats and Serbs. (?) That is just mystery to me. In what percentage?

Edited by the L

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I like this thread. It's like trying to explain what came first, the chicken or the egg? Keep explaining guys, I think I'm starting to get the picture. :blink:

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Posted (edited)

I like this thread. It's like trying to explain what came first, the chicken or the egg? Keep explaining guys, I think I'm starting to get the picture. :blink:

And thats just a small part of Balkan history. :w00t:

Its not that hard if you realy want to understand.

Nevertheless, there are few open questions that we still dont agree.

About OP- Milosevic was bad guy. :w00t:

That remember.

Edited by the L

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Got it L. I didn't like the SOB.

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L, if you want realistic picture on Bosnian history you can’t rely on Croatian school books.

Bosnians were a separate tribe, and no one sane can claim to know the exact percentage of particular tribe members in medieval (and earlier) Bosnia.

I mentioned before that I think it’s wrong to limit one nation to one religion, and this is why it is wrong.

Croats are identified by their Catholicism, Serbs by their Orthodoxy and Bosniaks by their Islam. So, you have a country, named Bosnia, very distinctive, with language, culture, even typical genome, and you break it in three by the religious criterion.

Put religion aside and you have Bosnians. Include religion and you have three nations in one crumbling country.

South Slavs were not fully Christianized over night, at first only leaders needed to accept the Christianity because it was politically opportune. The folk kept their own belief far, far longer than some local priest wants to admit today.

So being - for instance - Catholic in 10th century meant something completely else than today. It meant your king was allied with Rome, not that you don’t celebrate your gods and goddesses anymore.

And Bogumils didn’t vanish, they gradually went, generation by generation, from hiding their true religion to actually accepting new one. Just because some switched to this or that religion doesn’t mean they lost their Bosnianess, religion and nation are not the same.

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I tought Bogomils were sect of gnostics.

Bogomils NEVER have their kingdom. For example when Turks came in Bosnia there was cca 70 000 Bogomils. 600 - 700 000 Croats. I dont see how kingdom of Bosnia was Bogomils.

Map of Bosnia. Not Bogomils.

Bogomils have their own rituals but they were not nation.

Bosniaks were different same as Istrians, Dalmatians, Slavonians in that time before Ottomans.

You didnt said what language used Bogomils?

How many Bogomils lived in Bosnia?

Sorry to be one to tell you but there is not Bosniaks slavic tribe. In Bosnia lived Illyrians. Then came Slavic tribes Croats Serbs. Bosnia was just geographic term. Bosnia was part of Croatia. In Bosnia lived Croats from day 1. All things change after Pacta Conventa and Arpadovići throne.

Im aware that there is now Bosniaks nation. But Bosnia nation become from Croats, Serbs. They were all chatolic, orthodox and bogomils.

When Turks came Croats were numerous in Bosnia. Then came Islam. ...as Islam's self-identifying role for the Bosniaks was similar to that played by Catholicism for the Croats and Orthodoxy for the Serbs.wiki. It is fact.

Also Slavic tribe Bosniaks never came. They never existed. Its new age myth.

I realy wonder why is hard to you to except your origin? Are you learn differnet?

EDIT: According to scribes of Franciscians, number of Croats when Ottomans came is 750 000. 70 000 Bogomils. 30 000 Serbs.

I said Bosnians were a nation and not Bogumils, please read my answere correctly.

As for the language, well, bogumils were a RELIGIOUS sect or movement derived from Zaratrustrian religion, originated in Bulgaria. So Bogumils spoke different langugages, Bulgarian, Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Italian...

However, the Bogumils in this area took the root in Bosnia because of the acceptance by Kulin Ban, who made it a state religion. Kulin had to bow down, however to the catholic church to avoid a war. So he was FORCED to take on catholicism and abandon Bogumil religion for a while. You can find the whole story on the net.

As for how many Bogumils lived in Bosnia, I do not know. But to be a state religon it had to be the majority.

Also do you know that Kotormanić were chatolics? Croats not Bogomils not Bosniaks.

You are nationaly and religiously confused. Kotromanic was the BOSNIAN royal house regardless of what religion it may have been.

Are you equating being a catholic is the same as being a Croat? This is a very backward thought. You unpleasently surprised me.

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Posted (edited)

Your words. Bogumils were sect or movement. ...spoke different language.

My question is : People who were Bogomils in Bosnia, what language did they talk? :blink: Please dont skip it.

State religion? How? When there were only 70 000 Bogumils 750 000 chatolics 30 000 Orthodox.

Im not confused Odas. I know my history.

Kotormanić was chatolic.

And to lived when he lived in Bosnia and to be Chatolic is to be Croat.

Or you want to say that in that time lived Bosnians chatolics in Bosnia?

So according to you: When Croats came in Bosnia? :w00t:

I realy wonder who are the chatolics that live in Bosnia right now? Hmm :blush:

Edited by the L

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Posted (edited)

Helen,

My roots are from Bosnia. I didnt look only in Croatian books. Ask any historian: Pacta conventa, Arpadovići is main reason why Bosnia become separate kingdom from Croatia. Before that it was always part of Croatia.

Bosniaks origin is mainly- Croats then Serbs. You dont need to be Anthropologist, Historian to know that. Or should I put it this way. Their ancestors were mainly chatolics then bogomils then orthodox. But when Islam came they become muslims.

Im sane and many other people who claim that know exact number of people who lived in Bosnia before Turks. Thats why we have historians.

Now, put religon aside and then again you have Serbs Croats and Bosniaks. :tu: Can provide more info.

Then, put religion aside then you have Craots and Serbs.

Religon and nationality is not the same. Ofcourse.

Edited by the L

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Posted (edited)

...were a RELIGIOUS sect or movement derived from Zaratrustrian religion, originated in Bulgaria...

If we think about same thing then I think it originated from Iran. And that religon still exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism :tu:

I think recently one member (Persia) made a thread about it.

Edited by the L

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Your words. Bogumils were sect or movement. ...spoke different language.

My question is : People who were Bogomils in Bosnia, what language did they talk? :blink: Please dont skip it.

State religion? How? When there were only 70 000 Bogumils 750 000 chatolics 30 000 Orthodox.

Im not confused Odas. I know my history.

Kotormanić was chatolic.

And to lived when he lived in Bosnia and to be Chatolic is to be Croat.

Or you want to say that in that time lived Bosnians chatolics in Bosnia?

So according to you: When Croats came in Bosnia? :w00t:

I realy wonder who are the chatolics that live in Bosnia right now? Hmm :blush:

Obviously you do not have an understanding of Bogumils as well as the seperation of religion and state.

Bogumils spoke Bosnian, which is a slavic dialect, just as is Croatian or Serbian.

Kotromanic may have been a catholic but he was a Bosnian King who called himself a Bosnian. So according to your reasoning if someone is catholic he is Croatian. Well I do not think that Italiens or Spanish would agree with you.

As for the bolumil religion being a Bosnian state religion you realy do not show much understanding of world history. Your reasoning is much the same as what the serbs say, only the other way. They claim that the majority in Bosnia was back then Serbs and that the bosnian Bans and Kings were serbs.

For centuries my Bosnian people were killed by both, serbs and croats. Both countries claim this land as their own. Two crusades were fought on behalf of the catholic church against my Bosnian people - before the otomans came. Their only fault: Not being croats or serbs but bosnians. We survived and will continue to do so inspite of what you think. My bosnian people are muslims, catholics, orthodox, bogumils, jews, gypsis, atheists and pagans. It was always this way and it will be this way.

I have no desire to continue this conversation which is based on your side on nationalism and fake history but I will end with the words of the great Croatian writer Miroslav Krleza: Sacuvaj me boze srpskog herojstva i hrvatske kulture, means God save me from the serbian heroism and the croatian culture.

Bog decki.

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