Thoughts On Zeitgeist

[snoghorn]

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/

[SlimJim22]

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/

I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours. Welcome to UM Snoghorn

[snoghorn]

IMHO it's like having the blinkers taken off, taste-bids released and fed phe·nom·e·nal flavours.

[SlimJim22]

IMHO it's like having the blinkers taken off, taste-bids released and fed phe·nom·e·nal flavours.

Humanity has a tendency towards syncretism. This is exemplified by Zeitgeist but it should not detract from the religious and cultural identity that grows up thereafter. If you break things down to their smallest parts you can still build up from them again.

Regarding the Zeitgeist movement, I find it pretty ineffectual really. Shame because there is a need to recast culture in more appropriate forms at periodic intervals. This should be such a time but I think too many people are too precious about their beliefs and afraid to relinquish what they hold to be fact or at least spiritual truth.

[Guest]

Humanity has a tendency towards syncretism. This is exemplified by Zeitgeist but it should not detract from the religious and cultural identity that grows up thereafter. If you break things down to their smallest parts you can still build up from them again.

Regarding the Zeitgeist movement, I find it pretty ineffectual really. Shame because there is a need to recast culture in more appropriate forms at periodic intervals. This should be such a time but I think too many people are too precious about their beliefs and afraid to relinquish what they hold to be fact or at least spiritual truth.

Its a shame really as I think they point to the main crisis faced by mankind in that we are locked into a system of economics which values profit over actual need and utility. This makes for an intrinsically wasteful system as the most profitable option is seldom the best user of resources both human or material. I came across an interesting concept whereby if you could eliminate your own job whilst maintaining the overall productivity - you kept your future earnings for the rest of your life. Think what would happen currently if a worker used his on the job expertise to reduce his work load - he would lose his job, or be given more work to do. This sort of thinking is what is discussed in Zeitgeist 2 and would lead to leapfrogging of innovation and efficiency improvements, and would encourage systems to evolve into their most efficient/productive form - rather then the form which favoured those who control the resources as it is at present. Whilst ever the people who control the system profit by conflict and inefficiency we are on a treadmill to misery and decline. Unfortunately in order to break through does require a breakthrough in existential meaning and purpose, it has to be a tide that rises up and transformers - it cannot be a revolution from the top down.

For me the proof of the pudding is in the co-operative movement which has shown itself to be more robust and more productive than any private enterprise. There is a very interesting segment on this in Michael Moores "Capitalism" movie, which should be a companion piece for anyone who finds Zeitgeist informative.

Br Cornelius

Edited January 9, 2011 by Guest

[SlimJim22]

I agree entirely. A good start would be to break up cartels. It is funny how the free market is used by the rich to charge a higher premium for less. A better alternative as you say would be to have co-operatives rather than corporations because they can measure success in terms of growth rather than in terms of bottomline profit. Unfortunately innovation is the mainstay of large corporations these days but once we wake up to the power that individuals have by forming collectives, this may begin to change. First people need to cut through all the garbage and work out a values system that is compatible with the 21st century and our needs. There is progress I guess but in terms of perfect competition the naughties were ten steps back. I'm sounding like a Thatcherite but her 'free market' was an empty promise just like Camerons will be. When you see these clowns in government it does make me think we are stuck in a major rut and the world could do with being shaken up in some profound way. What you got for 20111 Mother Nature?

[snoghorn]

I agree. I watched the addendum as well as the first one, but the addendum had me, the way that politicians get "taken out" to uphold a certain part of industry is shocking. I do believe that they have very good points in their economic and technology standings. I can see how they say we are sheep and the telly is the herder, we see how life is portrayed on the telly and get "conditioned" to think that is the way we are meant to live our lives. On the tecnology side I was amazed at the geothermic possibilities for free sustainable power for the next 4000 years, and all the other possibilities without fossil fuels.

As far as what Mother Nature holds in stor for 2011 I can't say that we have had a good start, birds falling dead, fish and crabs dying in the thousands, poles shifting and I'm sure there are more.

Thanks for your input guys it's well appreciated.

[Tia]

The name caught my eye but the link wouldn't work for me. A 'friend' not really suppose to call him that anymore even though we can talk like OMG 'friends' showed me a film about 8months ago and the first part was about religion and how if you looked at different religions and what they each said happened or the symbol I think was the main part was already used by was it Buddhists? many years ago.

The next part I think was on the twin towers and it ended about government and money and corruption etc. I know there was a second film that I never watched is this the Zeitgeist movement? Sorry if I sound vague but I only watched it once and sort of had other things on my mind lol.

[snoghorn]

@Tia you can google it and the videos are readily available, I can't say that I agree with all of it, but the parts on technology and the Federal reserve really had me glued, imagine how your life would be simplified if money was taken out of the equasion? And if we could have a sustainable power source for 4000 years with no fossil fuels being used, it would be another world. After watching the videos I was in awe as to how much of a slave I am to day to day life, it just led me onto another path of thinking. This is of course only my opinion and nothing more.

Thanks

Snoghorn

[snoghorn]

My apologies I am feeling horrid about this post I was not doing my homework in the correct manor and feel VERY shameful about it, I never believed that the Christian scenario was real but did no further investigation, I took it as it was, which was wrong. This link http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/ throws all I have staed as incorrect. My apologies to the MODS and all else I may have thrown off the rails.

I will in future be doing my homework a lot more "under the microscope" before I post

Apologies again

Snoghorn

[SlimJim22]

It's by no means a cut and dry case. There is some truth to the ideas but they are portrayed in a slightly misleading way. Your link puts way too much emphasis on "truth" and "belief". Wrestling with oneself over these concepts is a waste of time imo.

What we know is that Christianity probably emerged from a jewish sect? It was probably gnostic and somewhat hellenized and maybe egyptianized. Judaism had already been influenced the Babylonians and they or Egypt maybe the origin of the Trinity of Father, Mother, Son. It's complicated but Christianity was integrated with numerous other cults with the aim of converting followers. The Greeks had Dionysus and the Romans had Mithras. Christianity was an all in one undle and gave it wide appeal.

It was with Constantine that Chrisianity really become formalized but this only led to the war on various heresies that were deemed sub-christian and in need of extermination. Ultimately, all ideas and symbols survive in some form but that form changes with the times. That is what Zeitgist means, "spirit of the time/age". The symbols of christianity are older than christiainity but by bringing it out of judaism it gave it more authenticity and holiness if you like.

There is no conclusive evidence that Jesus exosted but the majority of us believe he did. Maybe he did maybe he didn't but you can bet what is touted as christianity is a long stretch from how the man himself would have set it out. All christians cannot have the correct interpretation so everyone can worship as they please as long as they don't get all self righteous. We should all accept that our interpretations of scripture and beliefs are shaped by our education, which may be bias or prejudice depending on who wrote it.

I guess the conclusions from Zeitgeist is in this day and age, do we need organized religion to make us behave morally and show love to all. When I think organized religion, I just don't think 'love' anymore. That does not mean I discard the positive messages and symbols that are in all religions and I am thankful that I'm here. So much else is conjecture.

[snoghorn]

While I quite agree with what you have said, I can't put myself past the dates that have been mentioned on the birth of Christ and the rest, all being on one date, the same date, and when I did the research I found this to be untrue( As well as many other "facts" they lay claim to, and how can I beleive if some of the most simple information is incorrect with just a tad of research to proove so?). I am not a person that would spread a bended story, but as you say there is too much in either direction. I agree that they have a good concept but they have "marketed" the proposal in a really bad fashion.

As I have always said, I like their ideas on technology and monetry system, which I beleive will be welcome to most of the population as I would not have to surrender to governments or World banking systems that hold me "ransom" to be a part of society, (which is "supposed" to have the free will to choose) but if chosen in the latter will make you poor and unable to cope with the demands of family, education, technology, transport, health care, property we hold dear and many others too plentiful to mention to be part of an "active law abiding society member".

It is so unfortunate that greed, power and money strip us from being, so much more, than what we are led to beleive by those in power. We need to make informed descions for the future if not only our families, but our planet and ultimate species survival, I have no idea what these should be, as all is corrupt and what works for some might not work for others?

A bit off topic I am aware , but the other day I was sitting on the beach watching a beautful sunrise and there happened to be a lollipop lying in the sand covered by ants and each was taking his bite out of it, I got to thinking that what if the lollipop was suspended in the air and the ants had no-where to go from the lollipop. Would they just stay there and keep on eating it? Drop off and die? Or find a way to exist with eachother without killing and using their every resource before they found a way to either survive or find a way off? A bit deep I know and off topic, it was just a thought I had.

As I have stated before this is all my opinion and nothing more

It's by no means a cut and dry case. There is some truth to the ideas but they are portrayed in a slightly misleading way. Your link puts way too much emphasis on "truth" and "belief". Wrestling with oneself over these concepts is a waste of time imo.

What we know is that Christianity probably emerged from a jewish sect? It was probably gnostic and somewhat hellenized and maybe egyptianized. Judaism had already been influenced the Babylonians and they or Egypt maybe the origin of the Trinity of Father, Mother, Son. It's complicated but Christianity was integrated with numerous other cults with the aim of converting followers. The Greeks had Dionysus and the Romans had Mithras. Christianity was an all in one undle and gave it wide appeal.

It was with Constantine that Chrisianity really become formalized but this only led to the war on various heresies that were deemed sub-christian and in need of extermination. Ultimately, all ideas and symbols survive in some form but that form changes with the times. That is what Zeitgist means, "spirit of the time/age". The symbols of christianity are older than christiainity but by bringing it out of judaism it gave it more authenticity and holiness if you like.

There is no conclusive evidence that Jesus exosted but the majority of us believe he did. Maybe he did maybe he didn't but you can bet what is touted as christianity is a long stretch from how the man himself would have set it out. All christians cannot have the correct interpretation so everyone can worship as they please as long as they don't get all self righteous. We should all accept that our interpretations of scripture and beliefs are shaped by our education, which may be bias or prejudice depending on who wrote it.

I guess the conclusions from Zeitgeist is in this day and age, do we need organized religion to make us behave morally and show love to all. When I think organized religion, I just don't think 'love' anymore. That does not mean I discard the positive messages and symbols that are in all religions and I am thankful that I'm here. So much else is conjecture.

[SlimJim22]

It's interesting that you use the word "ransom". Jesus was the ransom in Christianity and the ram that replaced Issac was in Judaism. Do these trace back to the abandonment of human sacrifice firstly and secondly the rejection of all sacrifice other than self sacrifice through service to others. Lots of people can call themselves chritstian because they go to church or give to charity but it is sacrifice of the indiivdual that makes them a christian imo. Way too deep but yeah, we will eat ourselves Soylent Green style just as long as we don't have to coopearate. It is safer for peoples sanity to deny all truth of our mysterious past rather than suss it out. Zeitgeist were darn wrong if that is what they said about dying gods but careful not to throw the baby out with bath water. They emply the same symbols although there is debate over who was the first. Was it Osiris, who rose as Horus, or maybe Attis or Tammuz? Hindus would have us believe Krishna was the first and because it has the same root I am inclined to agree and maybe archeology will support this one day. If it did and Christianity therefore goes back 5,000 rather than 2,000 years, would that make us lay aside differences and heal the separation. I'd like to think yes but any paradigm shift is painful and could be eased by any points of agreement.

[Guest]

A Crowley says some very interesting things about the symbology of the dying God motif in religion and Magic. He basically says that in the modern age the dying part of the cycle (the dark night of the soul) is not implicit and can be short circuited to arrive at the next birth stage as a continuously upward cycle. It is knowledge which has allowed us to dispense with the death sacrifice. Essentially the dying God motif is intrinsically tied to the natural cycle of the year and is essentially a Pagan idea - we are not people of the land any more and so the Pagan motifs no longer bind us.

If I can come across a relevant quote I will do.

Br Cornelius

[snoghorn]

<a href="http://www.jrank.org/cultures/pages/5296/Dying-god.html">Dying god</a>

This link helps a bit, as well as for you Slim

[SlimJim22]

A Crowley says some very interesting things about the symbology of the dying God motif in religion and Magic. He basically says that in the modern age the dying part of the cycle (the dark night of the soul) is not implicit and can be short circuited to arrive at the next birth stage as a continuously upward cycle. It is knowledge which has allowed us to dispense with the death sacrifice. Essentially the dying God motif is intrinsically tied to the natural cycle of the year and is essentially a Pagan idea - we are not people of the land any more and so the Pagan motifs no longer bind us.

If I can come across a relevant quote I will do.

Br Cornelius

Yes and did Christianity or more specifically the message of agape that Jesus taught assist in he progress. I would say so because it allowed for greater introspection and the Church did assist greatly in learning. Sure there were times where the church resisted science but ultimately common sense prevailed because the people dictated. It's all about the knowledge and gnosis and esoterica has helped us to expand our minds. Look at Newton and his interests.

The problem is, where do we go now. If there is not a renewal of the underlying message, a greater separation added with greater capability could be bad. We are moving in the right way but there's always tension. Basically I feel there needs to be a shift from fundamentalist not a moderate view. It is happening but the way the new age is packaged limits it greatly. Prior to Jesus there was a similar new age that the public would not swallow. It was neo-platonism and it took Jesus with the help of Rome to take the philosophy to the masses imo.

Today there are countless wannabe messiahs but it is the people who decide what the new spirit of the age will be. Jesus made use of the piscean symbol so are we due a aquarian messiah or are we capable of creating a zeitgeist on our own?

[Guest]

Any attempt to create a movement is doomed to failure because it is the very desire and genetic programming of humans to follow Alpha Males and movements which is at the root cause of the systemic problems we face. Only a movement of none followers - thinking for themselves on every single issue - is goinmg to lead to a viable future free of political manipulation.

This is essentially the message of people like RA Wilson and A Crowley, be your own leader - follow your own unique spiritual path - only enlightened humans are capable of seeing the multiple lies their corrupt leaders feed them.

Consciousness raising is what we need, and this is the single most powerful message of the Zeitgeist movies and is encapsulated in the quotes from Krishnamurti at the start of the first film. These are incredibly powerful words from him.

Br Cornelius

[snoghorn]

Could we perhaps merge the Zeitgeist threads? All the information all together would make more sense please?

[SlimJim22]

Any attempt to create a movement is doomed to failure because it is the very desire and genetic programming of humans to follow Alpha Males and movements which is at the root cause of the systemic problems we face. Only a movement of none followers - thinking for themselves on every single issue - is goinmg to lead to a viable future free of political manipulation.

This is essentially the message of people like RA Wilson and A Crowley, be your own leader - follow your own unique spiritual path - only enlightened humans are capable of seeing the multiple lies their corrupt leaders feed them.

Consciousness raising is what we need, and this is the single most powerful message of the Zeitgeist movies and is encapsulated in the quotes from Krishnamurti at the start of the first film. These are incredibly powerful words from him.

Br Cornelius

I agree. I am in favour of disorganized religion if there is such a thing. Individuals all need to grow but I think to remain as individuals goes against the point of it. We should not follow but come together to create.

Changing the emphasis of our values would be a good starting point. Currently we are driven by material gain rather than spiritual. This can be at the detriment of everyone else just as long as we have more. This consumerism is flawed and will be the end of us one day. It is too inefficient and a waste of precious resources. I do think that there will have to be some major incident for any fundamental paradigm shift to occur. Us adults can all grow spritually through meditation or otherwise but unless the paradigm itself changes, our children will still be stuck in the same cycle of separation. Separate from communities, nature and their spiritual selves. Too much emphasis is put on the family, when families are breaking down more than ever. Changing to community drive society would be better for all. I'm not sure if Zeitgeist covers that but it should. This stuff is happening anyway, I just wish it could be faster and more widely recognized that it is 'us' who hold the keys to the secret of power and knowledge. We create the world we live in but apathy means we let control fall to those who we believe have our best interests in mind and are best qualified. That is wrong because we are destined to keep make the same mistakes until change comes.

Maybe this would be bettre on the spirituality boards because I can't really see much of a conspiracy with it.

[Guest]

Those who are in control know very well that we revert to basic functioning when placed under stress, we seek to protect what we own and make it more secure, we protect those we love, and we look to food security. Thoughts of community betterment are the last things on our minds when we are placed under stress. We stay in our home/cocoons and shop to feel more secure.

Watch as the the stress signals multiply as more people start to become aware of the existential crisis of modern living. I feel this is a big part of the actual conspiracies and the over the top conspiracy theories - to spread fear and draw us back into the traditional strong leader response. Look at what happened in England at the last election - they voted conservative because they looked strong - when everyone new that they would make their general situation worse. Its so primitive - so genetic - so manipulative.

Only through meditation do you realise its all just BS - and only as real as you believe it to be. Your neighbour hasn't changed, their is no bogy man waiting at the end of your street. Its all manipulative lies to keep you voting for the He man who will make it all better. This is the message of Christianity as much as it is the message of modern capitalism.

Br Cornelius

[SlimJim22]

I thought the message of Christianity was love they neighbour no matter who he is. It was only with the Nicene ccreed that they started making exceptions and amendments. We as a species, too easily fall into the trap of separation and revert to a tribal mentality. We have a desire for security and to possess. This is some what instilled in us but religion and the media, mainly the media.

When I was thinking about communities I was more thinking of having community food production to cut down on transport costs but yeah I agree if food prices continue to rise, you might see ladies brawling in supermarket aisles and it will go out the window.

However, what I think we need is to start planning for 50 years into the future. How we are going to sustain populations with the climatic conditions continuing to worsen. Not just pay lip service to the real issues but try and tackle them.

I was listening to some of Raj Patel's video earlier and he had some interesting things to say on the issue of food. Nothing concrete yet mindue but at least he is saying the write things. Is he the Aquarian Messiah who will right this sorry mess?

http://rajpatel.org/category/videos/

[dekker87]

everyone is aware that the Zeitgest thing is basically Theosophy right?

My link

[SlimJim22]

everyone is aware that the Zeitgest thing is basically Theosophy right?

My link

I couldn't get your link to work but in some ways you are right. However, theosophy has gotten a bad rap and in principle is a very good idea imo. However, it seems like egos and a need to authenticate itself led to it becoming a poor imitation of what it intended to be. That is only my opinion I don't know any theosophists although there is a society near to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophy

[Guest]

I couldn't get your link to work but in some ways you are right. However, theosophy has gotten a bad rap and in principle is a very good idea imo. However, it seems like egos and a need to authenticate itself led to it becoming a poor imitation of what it intended to be. That is only my opinion I don't know any theosophists although there is a society near to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophy

Wasn't it Krishnamurti who declined to become the new Theosphist Messiah ? He understood what was needed in the modern age.

Br Cornelius

[Deadhorn]

Well, fist of all, The Zeitgeist Movement originates from the second film, as it is the Activist Arm of "The Venus Project", to discredit TZM by referencing the first film is not understanding what TZM is. The point of TZM at this time is to create awareness and spread statistical information about the incredibly positive possibilities the future holds, and gives us a prespective of what life could be in a "Resource Based Economy" rather than a "Monetary System".

I'm all for this movement, it is true that movements that have only followers are doomed to collapse, but if you are in TZM, that means that you already show critical thinking, and if you inform yourself about what is necessary and you are willing to change this world before the enviormental/economical crackdown begins and the human species gets doomed for the sake of money and profit, then there is no chance of this movement collapsing.