Thoughts On Zeitgeist

[SlimJim22]

Wasn't it Krishnamurti who declined to become the new Theosphist Messiah ? He understood what was needed in the modern age.

Br Cornelius

I did not know about this but it's an interesting story. In 1909 he was recruited by Leadbeater and Beasant at fourteen and became the focus of their "World Leader Project". By the late 1920s he was disillusioned by the society as a whole and particularly the ideas surround the expected world leader. At some conference he delivered these words to a stunned audience.

I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Star_in_the_East

sounds like Krishnamurti was warning against any mvements and that inludes TMZ. I find the same reservations, if you give any organization power then it will immediately benefit it's members first. This is just another form of elitism that wants to shift the power more to the liberal camp. We should learn the lessons of the past and present and look to an alternative to camps wrestling for power. I would prefer something like a separation of powers so there is a system of checks and balances so that one element cannot benefit themselves before the whole.

I don't know much about "Resource-Based Economy" but the proof will be in the detail. They may face criticisms levelled at communism and obviously letting go of the monetary system would not be easy. Could it ever be equitable? Equitism is another theoretical alternative yet to be tested and I'd like to see a government try and implement it.

Most of all I think individuals need to be more entrepreneurial and this can be as sole traders or as clusters. Changes to the economy would occur and our buying habits with it. It has always been industry that has driven change and I can't see what new industry a RBE would achieve. We have so much technology and applications already, what is holding up putting the two together to solve various crises? I put it down to separation in various ways and Zeitgeist may not help heal any divide but expand it. Especially if spirituality and science cannot find an equilibrium. I do agree that if you remove the value of money then corporations will not be able to pull the old scarcity tactic to raise prices but I'd have to know more about RBE and other TMZ visions.

[Deadhorn]

I don't know much about "Resource-Based Economy" but the proof will be in the detail. They may face criticisms levelled at communism and obviously letting go of the monetary system would not be easy. Could it ever be equitable? Equitism is another theoretical alternative yet to be tested and I'd like to see a government try and implement it.

Most of all I think individuals need to be more entrepreneurial and this can be as sole traders or as clusters. Changes to the economy would occur and our buying habits with it. It has always been industry that has driven change and I can't see what new industry a RBE would achieve. We have so much technology and applications already, what is holding up putting the two together to solve various crises? I put it down to separation in various ways and Zeitgeist may not help heal any divide but expand it. Especially if spirituality and science cannot find an equilibrium. I do agree that if you remove the value of money then corporations will not be able to pull the old scarcity tactic to raise prices but I'd have to know more about RBE and other TMZ visions.

Well, Communism has nothing to do with it, Communism is in the Monetary System, they have banks, cops, law...None of which are in a RBE.

Industry drives change, and a Resource Based Economy has Automation & Cibernated Systems to give us Abundance and products of highest quality made to last and not to perpetuate the Ciclycal Consumption this Monetary System needs, also eliminating repetitive and degrading jobs, without not leaving a part of the population without purchasing power, which would be no longer relevant.

Please do inform yourself about a RBE.

www.thevenusproject.com

or

www.tromsite.com

[SlimJim22]

I've sniffed around the Venus Project and it's funny.

1. Realizing the declaration of the world's resources as being the common heritage of all people.

2. Transcending the artificial boundaries that currently and arbitrarily separate people.

3. Replacing money-based nationalistic economies with a resource-based world economy.

4. Assisting in stabilizing the world’s population through education and voluntary birth control.

5. Reclaiming and restoring the natural environment to the best of our ability.

6. Redesigning cities, transportation systems, agricultural industries, and industrial plants so that they are energy efficient, clean, and able to conveniently serve the needs of all people.

7. Gradually outgrowing corporate entities and governments, (local, national, or supra-national) as means of social management.

8. Sharing and applying new technologies for the benefit of all nations.

9. Developing and using clean renewable energy sources.

10. Manufacturing the highest quality products for the benefit of the world’s people.

11. Requiring environmental impact studies prior to construction of any mega projects.

12. Encouraging the widest range of creativity and incentive toward constructive endeavour.

13. Outgrowing nationalism, bigotry, and prejudice through education.

14. Eliminating elitism, technical or otherwise.

15. Arriving at methodologies by careful research rather than random opinions.

16. Enhancing communication in schools so that our language is relevant to the physical conditions of the world.

17. Providing not only the necessities of life, but also offering challenges that stimulate the mind while emphasizing individuality rather than uniformity.

18. Finally, preparing people intellectually and emotionally for the changes and challenges that lie ahead.

http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/the-venus-project-introduction/aims-proposals

I've part-designed my own sustainable experimental city so I fully endorse what they are trying to do. I'll check the other one later. I do still have reservations over what a resource-based economy is and how it will work but I'll have to read on. The crux of it is that money is just a symbol that acts as a promise to pay. It is a matter of convenience as much as anything. A barter system would not work anymore and if you don't have resources does that mean you are stuffed? However, as I see it the problem lies in endless middle men taking a slice of something they have no right to. Speculative markets and all that is what is bringing us down a lot of the time and it is all because we are profit motivated. I guess this could be tied to the monetary system but in an RBE I bet there will still be those looking to profit in terms of resources instead of money. People want power and if they can't have money they will hoarde resources instead. The situation could get worse. For example in the UK we get a lot of our gas from Gasprom the Russian giant. If there was no monetary system for them to benefit from they could theoretically withold gas until we agreed to trade something of an inflated value. Ultimately measures need to be in place to limit powers of governments and corporations. The VP suggests supra-national governments but I think commitees or something could be more effective. Bottom line is that this all sounds a long way off and artist impressions of fancy buildings is only a fraction of what is needed. Who will pay for it is what people will ask and they will want to know how a RBE values their contribution. The theme park idea also sounds pretty lame.

[dekker87]

I couldn't get your link to work but in some ways you are right. However, theosophy has gotten a bad rap and in principle is a very good idea imo. However, it seems like egos and a need to authenticate itself led to it becoming a poor imitation of what it intended to be. That is only my opinion I don't know any theosophists although there is a society near to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophy

i believe the links go deeper...in that whoever financed the original zeitgest film was / is actually one of the leading theosophists in the world today...

i'm a little busy at the moment but i'll try and find a link which illuminates when i get the opportunity.

[Guest]

An interesting, if slightly deranged right wing perspective on Zeitgeist and Theosophy;

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/69259

Having read this, you have to ask yourself is it a conincidence that the Venus Project should be so named when considering its similarities to the Theosphists and the Lucis Trust.

Br Cornelius

[dekker87]

An interesting, if slightly deranged right wing perspective on Zeitgeist and Theosophy;

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/69259

Having read this, you have to ask yourself is it a conincidence that the Venus Project should be so named when considering its similarities to the Theosphists and the Lucis Trust.

Br Cornelius

interesting article...

i'm finding it a little odd that i don't seem to be able to find anything directly linking theosophy to zeitgest now as when i researched this a while back i found the linkage very quickly...hmmmmm...

[SlimJim22]

interesting article...

i'm finding it a little odd that i don't seem to be able to find anything directly linking theosophy to zeitgest now as when i researched this a while back i found the linkage very quickly...hmmmmm...

Something that Zeitgeist focusses on is syncretism. They argue Christianity was syncretized from jewish, greek, roman and persian sources and done in a way that it would appeal even to pagans. Thus it is a very good example of syncretism.

Theosophy tried to take the same approach but they fused hindusim, buddhism, christianity, judaism, heathenism, shamanism and anything else they could get their hands on. That is the major thing linking them imo. The theosophists wanted to create a new zeitgeist but we would say they failed miserably. However, considering they have been working with th UN since 1922 as the Lucis Trust and have many high profile supporters, maybe they have not done so bad they have just chosen to keep more of a low profile, in general at least. This may go back to what Krishnamurti said and they do not want to come on to strong. Let people come to conclusions themselves rather than trying to convert.

As Br. Cornelius implied the Venus Project is an apt name for those working with the Lucis Trust in mind.

Over the last century or so there has been a steady rise in unification faiths and this to I attribute to syncretism and the supposed approaching age of Aquarius.

[SolarPlexus]

i like this movement. ever since i watched the first movie. finally someone who stands up and tell whats wrong

[flyingswan]

Interesting view of Zeitgeist from someone outside the conspiracy movement:

Parts of "Zeitgeist," complete with depictions of Fox News as a government propaganda organ, resemble some paranoid, far-left, anti-Bush tracts of 2004-2007. Other parts resemble far-right paranoia from many years ago. But the more important question is what effect the picture had on Jared Loughner.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/01/tucson-shooter-obsessed-bizarre-internet-movie

[SlimJim22]

Interesting view of Zeitgeist from someone outside the conspiracy movement:

Parts of "Zeitgeist," complete with depictions of Fox News as a government propaganda organ, resemble some paranoid, far-left, anti-Bush tracts of 2004-2007. Other parts resemble far-right paranoia from many years ago. But the more important question is what effect the picture had on Jared Loughner.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/01/tucson-shooter-obsessed-bizarre-internet-movie

It's a non-partizan movie but I agree the incoherence it presents is dangerous to unhinged minds. What is or isn't going on shouldn't be the point imo. Instead it should be used as an example of discerning patterns from history. Ideally we would learn the lessons and apply them to the future.

Purely my opinion but if anything the shift from Pisces to Aquarius will be a move from duality to a greater understanding of the Absolute. The two fishes will stop swimming apart and finally be at one maybe. Some stuff I have read is that Aquarius will lead to a greater emotional detachment. Rather than a loss of empathy I think this will boil down to a loss of ego but not identity as communal living becomes more practical.

With stuff like this there is a danger that Zeitgeist and it's unsubstantiated claims will undermine a growing shift in consciousness. It's just nature working in cycles and the human mind trying to comprehend it. Somethings are better left misunderstood, there is no harm in ignorance sometimes because knowledge for the ill prepared can have the opposite effect to which it was intended.

[snoghorn]

As Slim says ignorance may be bliss for some. But don't you feel that things need a change? Not only the way our governments are ruling, but what we are doing to our planet, environment and of course ourselves?

I can't say that I agree with the religious views of ZG but I really welcome the tech side and the fresh ideas that spring from it, 4000 years without fossil fuels would do wonders for our ozone and icecaps.

What I think we need to do is challenge the old ideas and introduce new one's that can make us work for us if you understand my drift. I am in negotiating a deal that will have my home solar powered as well as wind power, and rain collected in a storage tank that I can use to flush the toilets and water the garden that we plant our fruit and veggies in. Yes the batteries are expensive but the whole project is paid off in a couple of years, and I don't owe the energy department a cent, no power cuts.

All I am trying to say is that we need to look to the future and embrace certain aspects thereof that can improve and enrich our every day living.

[Guest]

There are powerful Corporate influences at work who have shown themselves more than capable of lying, torturing , killing and waging war to keep things the way they are.

Whilst ever people remain to terrified of the unknown they will never be willing to stand up to those vested interests.

Br Cornelius

[snoghorn]

That's what scares me Br, our planet is in dire need of healing and the corporates keep "raping" our planet, and this is made as acceptable to the cause of creating jobs and making the fat man more money by destroying the environment. We are on a downward spiral and if we continue to "rape" our planet we will LOSE against mother nature.

[SolarPlexus]

That's what scares me Br, our planet is in dire need of healing and the corporates keep "raping" our planet,

Yup it disturbs me too.... the only thing that makes me feel better is - you reap what you sow

[snoghorn]

Then we need to start reaping in the other direction as we are clearly doing a very bad job at the moment.

[The Silver Thong]

That's what scares me Br, our planet is in dire need of healing and the corporates keep "raping" our planet, and this is made as acceptable to the cause of creating jobs and making the fat man more money by destroying the environment. We are on a downward spiral and if we continue to "rape" our planet we will LOSE against mother nature.

I see, as yes we rape the earth but I see far more often man rapes man but not in that way, just overall. When a $ symbol dictates what can we expect.

[SolarPlexus]

Then we need to start reaping in the other direction as we are clearly doing a very bad job at the moment.

i meant the corporate criminals and shadow rulers will get what they deserve

[snoghorn]

That's just it we are playing against one another and not working to find a solution together, we are finding all the faults that "they" want us to believe and trust and not the cumbersome projects of enriching our lives, or we are not allowed to, because we get "bought out"(FREE ENERGY) in one way or another getting sucked into the political and religion fields as we are led to believe by the media and various others. SO we need to achieve something and "rape" eachother because of the MONEY or BUSINESS prospects. This makes me really sad, to know that a rip off artist is standing on every corner in a suite and selling us propaganda in a neat, tidy self starter kit, " HOW TO BECOME ONE OF THE SHEEP" would be the title in other tactfull words that they would put in.

SCARY!!!!!!!

[Guest]

That's just it we are playing against one another and not working to find a solution together, we are finding all the faults that "they" want us to believe and trust and not the cumbersome projects of enriching our lives, or we are not allowed to, because we get "bought out"(FREE ENERGY) in one way or another getting sucked into the political and religion fields as we are led to believe by the media and various others. SO we need to achieve something and "rape" eachother because of the MONEY or BUSINESS prospects. This makes me really sad, to know that a rip off artist is standing on every corner in a suite and selling us propaganda in a neat, tidy self starter kit, " HOW TO BECOME ONE OF THE SHEEP" would be the title in other tactfull words that they would put in.

SCARY!!!!!!!

This is what the climate change deniers are doing, selling comforting little stories of how the science is all bogus, because it profits big oil/coal to keep on polluting. There are many scam artists and many lies, and every one helps to keep the people of the world from finding a way to live our lives in harmony with the planet.

Br Cornelius

[Agent X]

Refuted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hgX6w4U-2o

[snoghorn]

@ AgentX Okay, it took me two days to download, the wonderful internet speed that I have, but do you refute change? In any form or manner? I am starting to think that change is as good as a holiday, and this is needed sometimes? Just a few in the correct direction of course as if that would happen. We, I believe, are led into the paths of whatever....(and I really like that word as it is sooooo underestimated) into "whatever" We have the choice of "whatever" and it is up to us to decide where we would decide our future best be. The advertising companies have it all under control for us ( TV MASS GUIDANCE IN A "TEACHERS HALL") as to what we should be doing, and of course don't forget the how and when. This I believe includes most of the every day needs and wants.

Yet we still have that "CHOICE" to either make things better for humankind or destroy it for the worse IMHO. We have the opportunity to say NO and I ask how many of us express that view? For if we did have enough people saying NO we would have a change,even the slightest would be in the positive and perhaps save what future we have left, and I say this not only in the MORAL sense but in the logical sense of what is happening to our future.

Mankind is capable of doing some horrendous acts in the name of "WHATEVER" and believe it with the very breath they take, all I am saying here is that a change would be nice from all the corrupt and the invisable that we are "FED" as the correct way that things should be done, and how we should respond to certain events and the so forth.

Would'nt all of us be better off knowing all the truths instead of guessing them?

[Agent X]

I have, but do you refute change? In any form or manner?

This is a very vague question to answer.

I'm against change for the sake of change. I prefer change when it's rightfully justified and rightfully needed, not just because somebody has a disagreement with the way something is done.

I'm also against a small minority trying to change things based on unfounded claims with absolutely nothing to back them up, even more so when they think and claim they have the authority that absolutely nobody else has.

And while there are real conspiracies out there, things like Zeitgeist, the Birther movement, the Reptilians, 911 was an inside job done by FP Bush encouraged by the Reptilian led Illuminati, simply are not true, and all the real evidence is against them.

Just for the record, I actually like Conspiracy Theories like those. I find them very interesting. But I hate arguing with people who believe them because they cannot conceive of the fact that they could be wrong.

Edit:

And they also use dishonest and misleading tactics to support their claims.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Agent X

[snoghorn]

You say that you are against change just for the sake of change? But this is the very foundation of change, I am not stating that small minority is correct, but I do believe it is time for some sort of change. I am not in any way supporting ZG or any other faction at present time. It is ALL about the change that we can instill in ourselves and others, on how to treat ourselves and our planet in a BETTER manor.

I have not once stated that I believe in the religous side, but rather in the tech side of things. We all need to contribute to make it all BETTER, However if you believe that all is a conspiracy when it comes to the way that we lead our lives and the way we treat our planet, I respect your views, I am under no circumstances saying that I am correct and I could be very wrong.

I am also not into the misleading parts, I like fact more than fiction...... could you imagine though a power source that could maintain our cities for 4000 years without burning fossil fuels?

These are the things that spark to me, things that will heal rather than destroy our heritage.

[snoghorn]

Has everyone just given up?? Come on guys is there no-one out there that is feeling the need for change? I'm not saying that we consider the boring and "untruths" about the religious parts but the tech side. Let's give the oil companies a run for their money......Anyone?? Someone.....

[SlimJim22]

The paradigm needs to shift so that there is not a 'them and us' attitude but we all cooperate to acieve the goals. Currently it seems like technology is only backed if there is profit in it. If there is no profit or continued dependence from said technology then there is no incentive to make it happen. We need to encourage the mentality that facilitates and supports innovation. The new paradigm must be born from the old and it will reach adulthood probably as the old paradigm is naturally about to die. This just seems to be the natural way that civlizations rise and fall. Ideaologies shift but over long periods of time. Seems like we are at one of those difficult points where there are new ideologies in their infancy but the OWO commits infantacide whenever it can get away with it and blame it on another. This all mainatins the 'them and us' attitude.