Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 5
Big Bad Voodoo

Göbekli Tepe-10 000 BC

298 posts in this topic

I think you can split the difference here to arrive at something closer to the truth. I suspect as L points out at one time there was more documentary evidence to show the Illyrians had more of a unique culture, as he point out, reflected in their own independent political state for a time, but centuries of Roman rule effaced both the culture itself and documentation for it. But in the end, whatever culture they had would not have been a civilization on par with the Greek or Roman inheritance, certainly.

(I mean, the Roman used and adapted Greek letters themselves, eventually forming their own alphabet, but you wouldn't say they didn't have their own culture. And yes, I know you wouldn't actually say that.)

--Jaylemurph

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you can split the difference here to arrive at something closer to the truth. I suspect as L points out at one time there was more documentary evidence to show the Illyrians had more of a unique culture, as he point out, reflected in their own independent political state for a time, but centuries of Roman rule effaced both the culture itself and documentation for it. But in the end, whatever culture they had would not have been a civilization on par with the Greek or Roman inheritance, certainly.

(I mean, the Roman used and adapted Greek letters themselves, eventually forming their own alphabet, but you wouldn't say they didn't have their own culture. And yes, I know you wouldn't actually say that.)

--Jaylemurph

That's the whole problem IMO. People like 'the L' and Harsh86_Patel, to name a few, want to apply the word "civilization" to pretty much anything and everything. It already has a definition and usage which shouldn't be misapplied to a group of indistinct tribes (Illyrians) or one city in the Indus Valley (Mehrgarh), as such an application is wrong. Sure the Illyrians had their own culture, that's obvious, but it's not on par with the level necessary with a civilization and that's what is not being understood.

cormac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

cormac I dont want to apply word civilization to anything just dont understand criteria.

Then Hittites,Akkadians and Mittani and others were not civilization.(cuneiform)

Edited by the L

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

cormac I dont want to apply word civilization to anything just dont understand criteria.

Then Hittites,Akkadians and Mittani and others were not civilization.(cuneiform)

No they were not. I think they can be classified as separate cultures, but they are not civilizations in their own right. I tend to agree with Cormac on this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No they were not. I think they can be classified as separate cultures, but they are not civilizations in their own right. I tend to agree with Cormac on this.

1st empire in world wasnt been civilization?

People who introduce to us iron age were...what are Hittites then?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also cormac you might say that they were not called Illyrians. But Minoans were not called Minoans. That doesnt mean they didnt exist.

Also why they need to gather into on giant empire. Illyrian kingdom might be small empire. That way we shouldnt called Greeks citiy states civilization at all because they were not empire and/or they didnt have central power (If except Alexander state). But also Illyrians were united against Romans. Resisting 60 years to them. If they were not organized then how did they resist for so long. Even Augustus was wounded in Illyria. As Jay pointed out (as my idea) maybe Romans wipe their records.

Liburnians were masters of all Adriatic sea. They have had colonies in todays Italy. They were matriarch society. They built cities. You can called them Liburni as Romans did or whatever but they were there. Fact is that we called them Illyrians today as group name for people in southeast Europe doesnt mean they must be united in one empire.

In fact there were numerous recorded Illryrian wars between themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1st empire in world wasnt been civilization?

People who introduce to us iron age were...what are Hittites then?

As long as you do not understand the distinction between culture and civilization, it's useless to discuss this with you. You have made abundantly clear in other threads, that in fact, you don't want to be corrected or thought anything by us.

Edit : typo

Edited by TheSearcher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Despite theft, site open to visitors

Unfortunately, Göbekli Tepe hit the news late last year because a 40-centimeter-high, T-shaped stela with a human head above and animal figure below was stolen from the site. Professor Schmidt has no idea why anyone would want to take it. The site was briefly closed to the public but security has been improved: there’s now a gate to the site, which is opened in the morning and closed at night, and also a camera system in place. As a result of increasing interest in Göbekli Tepe, both local and foreign, there are plans for a visitor’s center and a presentation of the site for the general public.

http://www.todayszam...-ancestors.html

To bad this stela was stolen, the human head would have given a face to who these people were,and its not this face.

The cream-coloured effigy was found in the ancient Kurdish city of Sanliurfa, in the hot plains of central southern Turkey, not far from the extraordinary archaeological dig of Gobekli Tepe.

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Turkey_Gobekli_Tepe_003.html

Edited by docyabut2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Despite theft, site open to visitors

Unfortunately, Göbekli Tepe hit the news late last year because a 40-centimeter-high, T-shaped stela with a human head above and animal figure below was stolen from the site. Professor Schmidt has no idea why anyone would want to take it. The site was briefly closed to the public but security has been improved: there’s now a gate to the site, which is opened in the morning and closed at night, and also a camera system in place. As a result of increasing interest in Göbekli Tepe, both local and foreign, there are plans for a visitor’s center and a presentation of the site for the general public.

http://www.todayszam...-ancestors.html

To bad this stela was stolen, the human head would have given a face to who these people were,and its not this face.

The cream-coloured effigy was found in the ancient Kurdish city of Sanliurfa, in the hot plains of central southern Turkey, not far from the extraordinary archaeological dig of Gobekli Tepe.

http://www.theliving...i_Tepe_003.html

It's a sad truth, but this kind of thing happens wherever there is a dig. Security needs to be stepped up because artefacts are stolen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a sad truth, but this kind of thing happens wherever there is a dig. Security needs to be stepped up because artefacts are stolen.

You`d think there would have been a picture taken before the stela was stolen, to show the public.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also cormac you might say that they were not called Illyrians. But Minoans were not called Minoans. That doesnt mean they didnt exist.

Also why they need to gather into on giant empire. Illyrian kingdom might be small empire. That way we shouldnt called Greeks citiy states civilization at all because they were not empire and/or they didnt have central power (If except Alexander state). But also Illyrians were united against Romans. Resisting 60 years to them. If they were not organized then how did they resist for so long. Even Augustus was wounded in Illyria. As Jay pointed out (as my idea) maybe Romans wipe their records.

Liburnians were masters of all Adriatic sea. They have had colonies in todays Italy. They were matriarch society. They built cities. You can called them Liburni as Romans did or whatever but they were there. Fact is that we called them Illyrians today as group name for people in southeast Europe doesnt mean they must be united in one empire.

In fact there were numerous recorded Illryrian wars between themselves.

I never said they didn't exist, but you've made it obvious that you don't remotely understand the distinction between a tribe or tribes, a culture, a civilization and an empire. Until such time as you do it's pointless to continue this discussion. Each one is a different level of socio-political, economic and religious complexity. And much like your use of 'civilization', the Illyrians were never an 'empire'. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

cormac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

nomadic cultures leaves very little evidence of their civilized nature behind, but since they don't build cities it means they were never a civilization ?

the Mongols were nomadic and had an empire, very big one too. Wouldn't call them 'just' a tribe either.

~edit :

Apologies to Sir cormac

this is an open ended query, was open to both sides of the debate, want to know what each sides thinks.

Was not a query direct to you ...

Edited by third_eye

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think with Gobekli-Tepe we are seeing foundation stones being laid...the foundation of community, agriculture and commerce...it is...by nature...a foggy thing to reflect upon...it is the beginning of the world we know. I hold this as one of the most fascinating sites I have ever had the pleasure of reading about. I know, South America has some fascinating and "enigmatic" sites...but none blow me away like Gobekli-Tepe does. I think as the exploration and research continues, there are still profound things yet to be discovered there...and I find it exciting.

We know that the site is only something like 10 to 15% excavated....what other wonders and enigmas are yet to be unearthed? I think it is wonderful and amazing and I give kudos to science overall to be able to step back and gather itself in the face of these dicoveries...awesomeness....pure awesomeness....to quote an archaeologist in reference to the site "it has overturned the cart and forces us to re-examine the history of civilization"...how cool is that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

nomadic cultures leaves very little evidence of their civilized nature behind, but since they don't build cities it means they were never a civilization ?

the Mongols were nomadic and had an empire, very big one too. Wouldn't call them 'just' a tribe either.

~edit :

Apologies to Sir cormac

this is an open ended query, was open to both sides of the debate, want to know what each sides thinks.

Was not a query direct to you ...

Building cities is one of the prerequisites. Since they didn't meet the criteria for a civilization then no, they couldn't be called one. Which means that size alone isn't a qualifying factor. And the comparatively miniscule kingdoms of the Illyrians pale in comparison to the enoumous size of the Mongol Empire, which around the mid 1200's AD comprised most of Asia. The Mongol Empire was a true empire, unlike the Illyrian Kingdoms.

cormac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's a bit silly to say the V. Gordon Childe's criteria for defining a civilization are an unassailable fact. There are lots of different definitions that have emerged in the field of anthropology, with distinct variances between the different branches. Instead of simply dismissing the L as ignorant of the meaning, you should discuss the merits of Childe's definition versus other definitions, and then try to come to an agreement on criteria before arguing about which cultures deserve the label.

Also I'd love to hear the reasoning for why a culture using a borrowed system of writing can't be a civilization.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's sillier to complain about a definition for the word "civilization" that didn't originate at UM to begin with. Nor is it anyone's responsibility at UM to create a definition that's more palatable to those who don't like the one presented.

cormac

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

cormac just answer me then this question, you dont see Hittites and Akkadian empire as civilization? Because of origin of their writting system.

You have made abundantly clear in other threads, that in fact, you don't want to be corrected or thought anything by us.

?

Is everything good Searcher?

Edited by the L

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

cormac just answer me then this question, you dont see Hittites and Akkadian empire as civilization? Because of origin of their writting system.

?

Is everything good Searcher?

On this I see them as distinct cultures, but not civilizations in their own right.

cormac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You`d think there would have been a picture taken before the stela was stolen, to show the public.

There probably have been some taken. They just may not have been published to the grant public like ourselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry but I disagree here. Mehrgarh is seen as a precursor to IVC, quite rightly. However, the period of which we talk, the Mehrgarh of Period I, from 7000 BCE to 5500 BCE (periods established by archaeologists), was Neolithic and aceramic, meaning without the use of pottery. The earliest farming in the area was developed by semi-nomadic people, living in simple mud buildings. It was far from the already well established city/civilization, that you seem to believe it was.

I grant that Mehrgarh is the earliest known precursor of the IVC, but we are still left with 1000 years in between Göbekli Tepe's burying of the temple and Mehrgarh. Then there is also the distance factor, nearly 4000 miles, in those times, that's quite a stretch.

The IVC might have been more widespread than previously thought, yes, but that still does not make it possible, the timing and distance just don't work.

Like I said, I can conceive the possibility of some influence from Göbekli Tepe towards Mehrgarh, not the other way around.

Ok point well received and all i can say at this point is more digs to be done and more sites to be rediscovered.Though i have a very strong feeling that the antiquity of the IVC will be pushed further back and the connections between the two sites will be established further down the line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok point well received and all i can say at this point is more digs to be done and more sites to be rediscovered.Though i have a very strong feeling that the antiquity of the IVC will be pushed further back and the connections between the two sites will be established further down the line.

Since Mehrgarh is a precursor of the IVC, that would already be an impossibility, in my opinion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

cormac just answer me then this question, you dont see Hittites and Akkadian empire as civilization? Because of origin of their writting system.

I had a similar but short discussion (in another thread about Göbekli Tepe) about exactly the same, L:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=231550&st=135#entry4484491

And read onwards.

As you will know in Europe we had the Funnel Beaker Culture, the Bell Beaker Culture, Linear Pottery culture, Tumulus Culture, and so on, but none of them were considered to be 'civilizations' even though they were wide spread.

I think a 'culture' is about noting but people creating similar buildings, graves and artifacts, a 'civilization' has to do with organization, recording information, commerce and hierarchical structure.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since Mehrgarh is a precursor of the IVC, that would already be an impossibility, in my opinion

IVC is a continuation of Mehrgarh rather. Mehrgarh is only one of the sites under the IVC banner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IVC is a continuation of Mehrgarh rather. Mehrgarh is only one of the sites under the IVC banner.

Sorry but that is just semantics and does by no means change the facts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think a 'culture' is about noting but people creating similar buildings, graves and artifacts, a 'civilization' has to do with organization, recording information, commerce and hierarchical structure.

As I remember and since Harsh86 mention them Harappans didnt have hierarchical structure yet we called them civilization.

As I understand crucial thing here is writting system. If one have it -its civilization. No writting system no civilization.

Also there are so called cultures which show MUCH of hierarchical structure and organization yet they are not consider to be civilization. Again probably because of writting system.

Edited by the L

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 5

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.