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Big Bad Voodoo

Göbekli Tepe-10 000 BC

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No, it's not only writing, it's a combination of several criteria.And the Indus Valley Civilisation did have a hierarchical structure, as both the Harappa site and the Mohenjo-Daro site have differentiated living quarters, flat-roofed brick houses, and administrative / religious centers.

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No, it's not only writing, it's a combination of several criteria.And the Indus Valley Civilisation did have a hierarchical structure, as both the Harappa site and the Mohenjo-Daro site have differentiated living quarters, flat-roofed brick houses, and administrative / religious centers.

I read on several places that IVC didnt have hierarchy. Can you support that claim with some link, quote...

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I read on several places that IVC didnt have hierarchy. Can you support that claim with some link, quote...

People do not go around without a structured government or hierarchy and simply build settlements or towns with proper planning.

here is a link for you to ponder

link

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It appears to me that the words 'civilization' and 'culture' are nothing but what you want it to be.

It's a meaningless discussion.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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It's a meaningless discussion.

Not to me.

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Not to me.

Yeah, I got that.

But in the end it is nothing but people bickering about the meaning of some word.

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I read on several places that IVC didnt have hierarchy. Can you support that claim with some link, quote...

See Spartan's link below, it's about as good as the one I could use. However I read this in a book, "The Ancient Indus:

Urbanism, Economy, and Society" by Rita P. Wright (Cambridge University Press, 26 Oct 2009)

People do not go around without a structured government or hierarchy and simply build settlements or towns with proper planning.

here is a link for you to ponder

link

Nice link mate and very informative.

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Yeah, I got that.

But in the end it is nothing but people bickering about the meaning of some word.

Abe: Actually the distinction between the two terms is of importance.

While cultural anthropologists have engaged in numerous philosophical and theoretical debates over the definition of "culture", the following is a reasonable distillation.

Culture - Learned and transmitted behavioral and technological information conducive to a groups adaptation to, and survival in, a given environmental setting.

Thus, comparatively small (or notably extended) groups share some degree of commonly transmitted knowledge. This does not necessarily imply higher levels of social organization and structure.

Civilization, on the other hand, incorporates (as noted by Searcher) a number of additional elements. Again, definitions can have some degree of variability. The following reference may provide some insight:

http://www.wmich.edu...vilization.html

.

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Sorry but that is just semantics and does by no means change the facts.

It does..your statements suggests that Mehrgarh was a separate identity from the IVC which is not the case.

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As I remember and since Harsh86 mention them Harappans didnt have hierarchical structure yet we called them civilization.

As I understand crucial thing here is writting system. If one have it -its civilization. No writting system no civilization.

Also there are so called cultures which show MUCH of hierarchical structure and organization yet they are not consider to be civilization. Again probably because of writting system.

I think writing is a way to "record information"...

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Abe: Actually the distinction between the two terms is of importance.

While cultural anthropologists have engaged in numerous philosophical and theoretical debates over the definition of "culture", the following is a reasonable distillation.

Culture - Learned and transmitted behavioral and technological information conducive to a groups adaptation to, and survival in, a given environmental setting.

Thus, comparatively small (or notably extended) groups share some degree of commonly transmitted knowledge. This does not necessarily imply higher levels of social organization and structure.

Civilization, on the other hand, incorporates (as noted by Searcher) a number of additional elements. Again, definitions can have some degree of variability. The following reference may provide some insight:

http://www.wmich.edu...vilization.html

.

Reading that website makes my feeling that it is nothing but bickering about the exact meaning of some word only stronger.

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It does..your statements suggests that Mehrgarh was a separate identity from the IVC which is not the case.

My statement says that Mehrgarh was the precursor of the IVC, no more no less, it suggests nothing. And even if the age of the IVC and it's precursors are pushed back, it does not change the fact that we are still left with a time difference, in between Göbekli Tepe's burying of the temple and Mehrgarh. Because I don't see it being pushed back more than 400 years. And still remains the distance factor, nearly 4000 miles. So I'll repeat the influence from Göbekli Tepe towards Mehrgarh, is a possibility, but not the other way around.

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My statement says that Mehrgarh was the precursor of the IVC, no more no less, it suggests nothing. And even if the age of the IVC and it's precursors are pushed back, it does not change the fact that we are still left with a time difference, in between Göbekli Tepe's burying of the temple and Mehrgarh. Because I don't see it being pushed back more than 400 years. And still remains the distance factor, nearly 4000 miles. So I'll repeat the influence from Göbekli Tepe towards Mehrgarh, is a possibility, but not the other way around.

No proof of human inhabitation in Tepe. Where were the people coming from to worship or to maintain the temple/hunters hall/Centre of pilgrimage?.Had to be a cultured and organised bunch to boot....i don't buy the hunter gatherers deciding one fine day to build the complex for kicks theory.Everything is possible... IVC could have extended all the way till tepe....you never know.2500 Miles is more like it not 4000 miles.Places of pilgrimage can be far of from the place of residence and this could justify the back filling of the complex to protect it from local or foreign invaders/vandals etc.

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No proof of human inhabitation in Tepe. Where were the people coming from to worship or to maintain the temple/hunters hall/Centre of pilgrimage?.Had to be a cultured and organised bunch to boot....i don't buy the hunter gatherers deciding one fine day to build the complex for kicks theory.Everything is possible... IVC could have extended all the way till tepe....you never know.2500 Miles is more like it not 4000 miles.Places of pilgrimage can be far of from the place of residence and this could justify the back filling of the complex to protect it from local or foreign invaders/vandals etc.

Dr. Klaus Schmidt says that the inhabitants are assumed to have been hunters and gatherers who nevertheless lived in villages for at least part of the year. Semi nomadic life style would account for the no proof of human inhabitation at the site itself.

If I have to chose between what you assume or what an archaeologist says that has been studying the site for the last 18 years, then sorry but the archaeologist wins.

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I suggest they keep digging, if the temples were buried, then the inhabitation or dwellings of these people may also have been buried.

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the people were nomadic, they travel constantly and seasonal sites are dependent on nature as seasonal rains or summer dryness are not constant.

Some sites might be abandoned for years before a return visit. The plains is vast and highly accessible. When more adopted the changed culture for cultivation, some of these sites would be forgotten.

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Hi all, as I'm from Turkey, I'm very interested in these places, but I don't have anyone with paranormal/cryptozoology/alternate history/unexplained mysteries interests. As this land was occupied since very very old times, it's full of interesting stuff like the underground city in Cappadocia or Göbeklitepe and some other places.

So, if anyone here plans to visit, please contact me. The least I can do is have a beer with you in Istanbul before you start on your journey. If it is in the summertime, I would love to form a party and travel those mysterious places together. Not many believers in alternative history theories here, and our country's standing with science is not so good as you may know. So we could help each other out :)

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... i keep wondering if Gobekli Tepe may have been more of a political center than religious ? ? .. or maybe a combination of. We really don't know what the culture was like ? .. maybe they developed some strict political / clan system. Just something to consider, other than .. temples.

* add a ?

Edited by lightly
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... i keep wondering if Gobekli Tepe may have been more of a political center than religious ? ? .. or maybe a combination of. We really don't know what the culture was like ? .. maybe they developed some strict political / clan system. Just something to consider, other than .. temples.

* add a ?

It very probably was. The idea of religion and politics even being different things is a very modern concept (at the earliest, the 17th Century CE, I believe). I think our own (collective) understanding of the two as separate often clouds our perspective, so this was an excellent thing to point out.

--Jaylemurph

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Thanks Jaylemurph... i just keep wondering about the animal and other symbols at Gobekli tepe as representing clans or groups from different areas.

The Roman senate met in a separate building for political stuff... but worshiped in temples and at alters? Some small separation of "church and state" was underway ?

.. then again, our senate opens with a prayer.

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Thanks Jaylemurph... i just keep wondering about the animal and other symbols at Gobekli tepe as representing clans or groups from different areas.

They may also have represented deities in some animal worship religion. Also, animals are an intrinsic part of shamanism, which is, some think, quite an old religion:

Various archaeologists and historians of religion have also suggested that shamanism may have been a dominant pre-religious practice for humanity during the Palaeolithic.

Source: wiki

With animal worship, one theory is that the worshipped animals may have originated as clan or family totems or even just representaives of individual families and then later became elevated. Which goes right back to your speculation concerning the matter.

AFAIK, Shamanism is not, however, very closely related to animal worship. On the other hand, the elevation of certain animals to "guides" in a shamanistic culture may well have originated in clan totems, just as is supposed regarding animal worship types of belefs.

Harte

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Thanks Harte... i just had an inkling about the symbols. Amerinds still have clans associated with animals.

inkling |ˈiNGkliNG|nouna slight knowledge or suspicion; a hint: the records give us an inkling of how people saw the world.

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I've just recently started reading up on this place, it's so fascinating. I haven't really had much time or found a whole lot of material. I started reading about it about a year or so ago.

I am chomping at the bit for them to reveal more. From what I have read, they have only excavated something like 10 to 15% of the site. Something like 16 circles are known through GPR but are not being worked on yet. I wonder if this thing could go back even further...

I have little more to say on it as I don't know much but as of now...this is the most interesting site in the world to me...I want to know more!

Edited by Jeremiah65
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