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JonathanVonErich

New lead in the Zodiac Killer Case ?

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wow, this case is still my favorite to. havnt really read much on it in years so was good to read this whole thread and remember why it was so fascinating.

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wow, this case is still my favorite to. havnt really read much on it in years so was good to read this whole thread and remember why it was so fascinating.

You're welcome. I want to thank everybody who participated in this thread, I agree, we did a great job. :)

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People needs to see this.

Somebody uploaded the most recent documentary made on the case, "This is the Zodiac Speaking".

In this part surviving victim Bryan Hartnell share all the details of the day when he and Cecelia Shepard were attacked by Zodiac at Lake Berryessa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVyBT0Q_gTM

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Ty for the vids Jon! I was thinking about how Bryan looks like the man with the glasses in the pic. I know it couldn't be him, but in the last vid, it showed Bryan in the hospital, there's a striking resemblance. Strange, most men at the time cod really fit the discription. Would if Bryan was lying and staged it to clear himself as the zodiac? A stretch, I know!

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Ty for the vids Jon! I was thinking about how Bryan looks like the man with the glasses in the pic. I know it couldn't be him, but in the last vid, it showed Bryan in the hospital, there's a striking resemblance. Strange, most men at the time cod really fit the discription. Would if Bryan was lying and staged it to clear himself as the zodiac? A stretch, I know!

You are welcome. :)

In my opinion it's impossible, Bryan could have never stabbed himself 6 times in the back, or would have never asked anybody to stab him. He almost died in the incident at Berryessa, there's no doubt in my mind that he is not a suspect in the case.

The man in the pic with the glasses is around 6 feet 1, Bryan was 6 feet 6 back in 1969, so it can't be him.

Bryan is a survivor, and I'm glad he is now a very succesful man ( he is a lawyer now ). :)

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Bryan was never considered a suspect in this case, and rightfully so. :)

I still wonder if the story told by Zodiac ( that he was a convict, that he needed to go to Mexico,e tc. ) on that day at Berryessa is true. I mean why would he create such a story ?? Was it part of his fantasy, was he playing a character ?? The conversation between him and Bryan, Cecelia is perhaps the strangest event in the entire case. Very strange.

If some people have never seen the great movie Zodiac ( 2007, David Fincher ) you can watch it on Youtube. It's one of the best movie I have ever seen ( I think I might have watched it 30 times lol ), however we have to remember that the movie is not 100% accurate. Yes, all the details about the murders are true, however a lot of the discussions between the main characters ( Toschi, Graysmith, Avery, Armstrong, etc. ) simply never took place, and are there to make the movie more interesting. I'd say that the movie is 45% accurate. The movie is in 11 parts, just follow the links. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c28qaPwD8M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep3ro307v2E&feature=related

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Well....Another year is ending, and this case is still unsolved.

Cool to see that this thread have more than 20,000 views, hopefully a lot of people have discovered the case because of this thread.

Maybe 2012 will be the year where, finally, this case will be solved. I sure hope so. :)

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I've come to the conclusion that too much time has pasted for new evidences to come bout!

Happy 2012 Jon!

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Yep. DB Cooper and this case probably won't be solved. Unfortunate really, especially with this one. I can somewhat imagine the fear those kids had living out there (DC sniper attacks), but man, too bad they never caught him. Police baffled it that one night when they talked to him and they radioed it was a black male. One mistake like that changed history for the worse.

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I've come to the conclusion that too much time has pasted for new evidences to come bout!

Happy 2012 Jon!

Happy 2012 to you, MC. :)

I still have hope that the case will be solved. I remember when Richard Gaikowski suddenly reappeared as a suspect, a few years ago. Everybody was excited, a lot of people ( including myself ) thought that the case was solved, that they had finally identified the killer. Sadly it wasn't the case. A lot of people still believe Gaikowski was Zodiac, and the rest of us are waiting for solid evidences against him. But I still have hope.

Yep. DB Cooper and this case probably won't be solved. Unfortunate really, especially with this one. I can somewhat imagine the fear those kids had living out there (DC sniper attacks), but man, too bad they never caught him. Police baffled it that one night when they talked to him and they radioed it was a black male. One mistake like that changed history for the worse.

Well said, 66. I still can't believe that somebody told these officers that they were looking for a black man. Big mistake. :(

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From WWW.ZODIACKILLER.COM:

After nearly a year, the identity of the unknown man remains a mystery. (...) An official statement is coming soon.

Well that's exciting. Maybe we'll finally know the identity of the "unknown" man. :)

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There's still a lot of controversy about this picture. Some people still believe that the "unknown man" was involved in Darlene's murder, others ( like myself ) are convinced he had nothing to do with her death. Some people still believe the "unknown man" might be Darlene's ex-husband, others believe he is somebody else. Amazingly ( and sadly ) the debate is still on.

For more: Zodiackiller.com Message Board: Darlene Ferrin and the UNKNOWN MAN

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Zodiac was in SF correct?

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Zodiac was in SF correct?

Yes, all the murders/attacks happened in the Bay area.

The murders of Faraday/Jensen and murder/attack on Darlene Ferrin and Mike Mageau happened in Vallejo. The murder/attack of Shepard and Hartnell happened near Napa, and finally the murder of Paul Stine happened in the Presidio Heights neighborhood of SF.

Why ?? :)

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New information linking suspect Richard Gaikowski to the case.

A lot of similarities can be found between a movie review Gaikowski wrote for a NY newspaper in may 1966 and the Cheri Jo Bates confession letter, written only 6 months later. I'm skeptical that Cheri Jo was killed by Zodiac, but it's possible that he wrote the confession letter and tried to take credit for the murder. Judge for yourself.

Zodiackiller.com Message Board

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I don't know why anyone is still trying to solve this case. David Kaufman has already solved it. His step dad Jack Tarrance was the zodiac, everybody knows that. Well, if David Kaufman and his merry band of idiots is considered everybody then everybody knows that. Seriously, Jonathan, have you read any of this guys stuff? I am sure you have, its pretty funny if you have not.

Mike

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I don't know why anyone is still trying to solve this case. David Kaufman has already solved it. His step dad Jack Tarrance was the zodiac, everybody knows that. Well, if David Kaufman and his merry band of idiots is considered everybody then everybody knows that. Seriously, Jonathan, have you read any of this guys stuff? I am sure you have, its pretty funny if you have not.

Mike

Hey Mike :)

Yes, I have read almost anything related to the "Step-father" theory, the possibility that Jack Tarrance was the Zodiac. Tarrance was not the Zodiac, no doubt about that.

Dennis Kaufman, the guy making the claims against mr. Tarrance, is simply not credible. In fact almost all serious researchers believe Kaufman is a liar and a fraud. I certainly do. Kaufman claims that mr. Tarrance was also The Black Dahlia murderer, The Texarkana Murderer (aka Phantom killer), the author of the Jon Benet Ramsey ransom note, The Anthrax Killer, the Lipstick killer; do I have to say more ?? The guy is a liar, and nobody should believe his claims. No serious researchers believe him, and his "theory" is not even debated on major Zodiac message boards.

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Yeah, guy is definitely a fruitcake. I think he even tried to sell some bogus "evidence" to Tom Voigt at one time. I think maybe a piece of the Paul Stine's shirt. Anyway, you give some very good information on this case. Obviously done your homework.

Mike

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Yeah, guy is definitely a fruitcake. I think he even tried to sell some bogus "evidence" to Tom Voigt at one time. I think maybe a piece of the Paul Stine's shirt. Anyway, you give some very good information on this case. Obviously done your homework.

Mike

Well thank you Mike, I appreciate the compliment, coming from a respected member like you. :tu:

Sadly I have spent way too much time trying to research this case. Oh well.... :lol:

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Well thank you Mike, I appreciate the compliment, coming from a respected member like you. :tu:

Sadly I have spent way too much time trying to research this case. Oh well.... :lol:

And you may be the one the break it! B) I hope so, that would be awesome!!

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Well thank you Mike, I appreciate the compliment, coming from a respected member like you. :tu:

Sadly I have spent way too much time trying to research this case. Oh well.... :lol:

Hey got to give credit where its due, but respected? I wouldn't go that far. lol.

Mike

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Also, do you think that the zodiac could be related to the original night stalker/east area rapist case. I know zodiac didn't sexually assault his victims, but the east area rapist didn't start out killing either. Sometimes killers evolve into something else. There are some similarities in the crimes for sure. Just a thought.

Mike

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And you may be the one the break it! B) I hope so, that would be awesome!!

I doubt it very much MC, but thank you very much my friend. :tu:

I'm still researching the case, still trying to find theories and possibilities, however I don't spent as much time on it as I did in the past, and quite frankly I'm now waiting for other people ( like Voigt or Butterfield ) to solve the case, after all they are the best researchers out there. Hopefully somebody, anybody, will solve the case soon. It's possible. :)

Also, do you think that the zodiac could be related to the original night stalker/east area rapist case. I know zodiac didn't sexually assault his victims, but the east area rapist didn't start out killing either. Sometimes killers evolve into something else. There are some similarities in the crimes for sure. Just a thought.

Mike

Very interesting question Mike, never really thought of the possibility. :)

In my opinion the Original Night Stalker and Zodiac were two different men, I don't really see a lot of similarities between the two cases. You said it yourself, Zodiac didn't sexually assaulted his victims, and I doubt very seriously that a killer would change his MO from murder to sexual assault. We have seen many cases were an individual will start his "career" by sexually assaulting his victims then "switch" or "evolve" to murders, but the contrary is so rare that I don't think it's a possibility. We also have to remember that part of the Original Night Stalker's was to commit burglaries, something the Zodiac never did.

Another very important point: the Original Night Stalker had no communication with the police or local newspapers. He wrote no letters, didn't care to brag or talk about his crimes, never gave himself a nickname or identity. In other word he was the opposite of Zodiac; Zodiac was all about taunting the authorities, he was all about bragging and talking about his crimes. In fact the only reason why he killed Paul Stine was to be in the headlines and to be the focus of every newspapers and news report of the Bay Area. The Original Night Stalker wanted no communication with the authorities or the newspapers, this is to me the biggest evidence that it was a different man. Only my opinion Mike, if you want to add anything please do, I admit that I don't know much details about the Original Stalker. :)

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I doubt it very much MC, but thank you very much my friend. :tu:

I'm still researching the case, still trying to find theories and possibilities, however I don't spent as much time on it as I did in the past, and quite frankly I'm now waiting for other people ( like Voigt or Butterfield ) to solve the case, after all they are the best researchers out there. Hopefully somebody, anybody, will solve the case soon. It's possible. :)

Very interesting question Mike, never really thought of the possibility. :)

In my opinion the Original Night Stalker and Zodiac were two different men, I don't really see a lot of similarities between the two cases. You said it yourself, Zodiac didn't sexually assaulted his victims, and I doubt very seriously that a killer would change his MO from murder to sexual assault. We have seen many cases were an individual will start his "career" by sexually assaulting his victims then "switch" or "evolve" to murders, but the contrary is so rare that I don't think it's a possibility. We also have to remember that part of the Original Night Stalker's was to commit burglaries, something the Zodiac never did.

Another very important point: the Original Night Stalker had no communication with the police or local newspapers. He wrote no letters, didn't care to brag or talk about his crimes, never gave himself a nickname or identity. In other word he was the opposite of Zodiac; Zodiac was all about taunting the authorities, he was all about bragging and talking about his crimes. In fact the only reason why he killed Paul Stine was to be in the headlines and to be the focus of every newspapers and news report of the Bay Area. The Original Night Stalker wanted no communication with the authorities or the newspapers, this is to me the biggest evidence that it was a different man. Only my opinion Mike, if you want to add anything please do, I admit that I don't know much details about the Original Stalker. :)

I think if you do a little research you will find many more similarities between the two than you think. I never realized it until I started digging into the night stalker case. He actually did send letters (or poems) rather to the police and signed off with something along the lines of see you in the news. Thats very similar to the sign off of one of the zodiac letters. They worked in the same general area, The O night stalker was very aware of the media attention as he would change his MO to suit media reports, he used a flashlight to blind his victims like the zodiac and would tell them he needed money and food because he was a criminal on the run, the zodiac did the same at the lake, he would then have the woman tie up the man, then he would tie up the woman and retie the man, like the zodiac did at the lake. These are just a few of the similarities, I will list a few more when I have more time. Most likely nothing to it, but you never know.

I grabbed this real quick:

The Zodiac has long been mentioned by writers and investigators of the Original Night Stalker (ONS) as a possible suspect. Both sometimes attacked lone females, but both usually killed male/female couples. Both used a flashlight to blind their victims, had gun/knife/pre-cut lengths of rope, ordered the female to tie the male, wore a hood, targeted mostly middle class suburban areas, picked beautiful women usually dark haired, wore military clothes/boots/shoes, were never caught, exhibited high intelligence and planning, played games with the police and media, and wrote cryptic poems. Key difference: No overt sex in the confirmed Z crimes (1968-1969); rape in the EAR/ONS crimes. Either Z evolved into overt sexual violence, which is certainly possible, or Z is not EAR/ONS. Some of the possible Zodiac cases in Sonoma Countyand Northern California (1970 - 1974) involved increasing levels of nudity of the victim and possible sexual molestation.

Don't agree wholeheartedly but who knows.

Mike

Edited by msmike1

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The Zodiac has long been mentioned by writers and investigators of the Original Night Stalker (ONS) as a possible suspect. Both sometimes attacked lone females, but both usually killed male/female couples. Both used a flashlight to blind their victims, had gun/knife/pre-cut lengths of rope, ordered the female to tie the male, wore a hood, targeted mostly middle class suburban areas, picked beautiful women usually dark haired, wore military clothes/boots/shoes, were never caught, exhibited high intelligence and planning, played games with the police and media, and wrote cryptic poems. Key difference: No overt sex in the confirmed Z crimes (1968-1969); rape in the EAR/ONS crimes. Either Z evolved into overt sexual violence, which is certainly possible, or Z is not EAR/ONS. Some of the possible Zodiac cases in Sonoma Countyand Northern California (1970 - 1974) involved increasing levels of nudity of the victim and possible sexual molestation.

Thanks for sharing Mike. :)

To my knowledge no serious Zodiac researchers ever thought that Zodiac and the Original Night Stalker could possibly be the same man. Whoever wrote what you shared made some mistakes. First of all we have no evidences that Zodiac committed attacks on lone females. We have to remember that Cheri Jo Bates, Donna Lass and Kathleen Jones are only rumored Zodiac victims, they are not "official" Zodiac victims, therefore this claim in not true. In my opinion Cheri Jo was killed by somebody else, not by Zodiac, just like I believe Lass was kidnapped by someone she knew, not by Zodiac, and just like I believe Kathleen Jones was mistaken when she claimed Zodiac abducted her and her baby, based exclusively on the police sketch. The claims that Zodiac usually picked dark haired women is also false. Zodiac was never officially linked to some of the Sonoma unsolved murders, so I really don't know why the author of this piece even mention this. There's only 5 official Zodiac victims, all the others ( Cheri Jo, Donna, Kathleen, Robert Domingos, Linda Edwards, Santa Rosa murders, Sonoma murders ) are just rumored Zodiac victims/crimes and absolutely nothing links Zodiac to these unsolved crimes.

The difference between the two MO is huge; Zodiac simply wasn't a rapist, to me this is proof positive that it wasn't the same man. One thing I've learned in my Criminology classes is that a rapist can "evolve" into a killer, but a killer won't "evolve" into a rapist, the chances are very weak that this might happen. If indeed Zodiac was a rapist then I'm sure he would have had showed sign of it when he killed Betty Lou, Darlene or Cecelia. The MO just doesn't fit and is simply too different.

However I wasn't aware that the Original Night Stalker played games with the police and media, or that he wrote poems, thanks for sharing. I don't believe Zodiac and ONS were one and the same man, but I agree that there's similarities between the two cases. However there's not enough similarities showing me that it was the work of the same individual, and I'm 100% convinced that Zodiac was not the Original Night Stalker.

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