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New lead in the Zodiac Killer Case ?


JonathanVonErich

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Well the only link we have between the watch brand and Zodiac is that the man who was the prime suspect in the case for years, Arthur Leigh Allen, had a "Zodiac" watch, but the killer never talked about the watch brand in one of his letters. Of course since the symbol of the brand is the exact same as the one used by the Killer, since both the brand and the killer were named Zodiac then it would be easy to think the Killer found his nickname/symbol because of the brand, but we have no evidence that he did. But it's one of the interesting theory. The watch is one of the interesting fact linking Allen to the case, but we have no real, solid evidences against him.

Very interesting observation Al, thanks for sharing.

We know Darlene was very popular with men, she had a lot of male friends and after divorcing Jim Phillips she had another husband, Dean Ferrin. As a matter of fact maybe she was too popular; Darlene's sisters claim a man delivered gifts, followed and harassed her in the months before her murder. We can't be sure if it's true, but if these allegations are true then this is maybe the proof that Darlene knew her killer, then the importance of finding the name of the man on the picture. Again : I don't believe the man on the picture is indeed Jim Phillips, right now we have no evidence to backup this claim, sadly.

And about the book: Don't worry Al, I won't forget you my friend. :tu:

Your a good man my friend.

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Your a good man my friend.

Well It takes one to know one my friend. :tu:

Still nothing new about the picture. I wonder what Mr. Ken Narlow would think about this new picture. Mr. Narlow worked for the Napa County Sheriff's Dept. for several decades and was the original detective assigned to investigate the Zodiac's attack at Lake Berryessa. Sadly Mr. Narlow died on December 1, 2010 after a strong battle against cancer. I really would have loved to hear his opinion about this new picture, he always had something interesting to share. May he rest in peace.

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Yes, it's a very good site about the Zodiac Case. However I and a lot of people don't agree with everything you can find on this site, the webmaster often gives his own personal opinion about other Zodiac investigators and he clearly have an agenda against people like Tom Voigt, but overall the site is allright.

It's on this site that we have found the comparison between Jim Phillips and the "Unknown man", the picture with all the "Red X" that I and Left-Field shared right here in this thread. The webmaster think that the "Unknown man" is indeed Jim Phillips, based on the comparison of the two pictures. Quite frankly I don't see how he can reach this conclusion based exclusively on the comparison of these two pictures, but I respect his opinion.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So still nothing new about the pic. Since February I have sent an e-mail to 8 persons who know the Zodiac Killer case really well, asking them what they thought of this new picture and it was about 50-50; 4 of them think the "Unknown man" is Jim Phillips while the other 4 are convinced that the man on the picture is somebody we don't know.

Now, more than ever, I am open at the idea that the man on the picture might be Jim Phillips, but what we need is another picture of him, a pic other than the one we have right now. Right now we have only one picture of Mr. Phillips and we can't reach a conclusion based on the comparison of this picture and the new picture of Darlene with this "Unknown man".

Hopefully something new will come our way during the next few weeks, I'm trying to find another picture of Mr. Phillips. Perhaps the mystery of the so-called "Unknown man" will be solved once we find another picture of Jim. I'm keeping you posted.

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So still nothing new about the pic. Since February I have sent an e-mail to 8 persons who know the Zodiac Killer case really well, asking them what they thought of this new picture and it was about 50-50; 4 of them think the "Unknown man" is Jim Phillips while the other 4 are convinced that the man on the picture is somebody we don't know.

Now, more than ever, I am open at the idea that the man on the picture might be Jim Phillips, but what we need is another picture of him, a pic other than the one we have right now. Right now we have only one picture of Mr. Phillips and we can't reach a conclusion based on the comparison of this picture and the new picture of Darlene with this "Unknown man".

Hopefully something new will come our way during the next few weeks, I'm trying to find another picture of Mr. Phillips. Perhaps the mystery of the so-called "Unknown man" will be solved once we find another picture of Jim. I'm keeping you posted.

As always J.V.E . -you are a wealth of knowledge on what has to be the most fascinating case in all of the annals of True Crime history. In another thread a lot of people have argued about whether Charlie ( Manson) was a genius, moron, or just lunatic.....I think I would categorize the Zodiac in the area of twisted genius.

J.V.E ---in this modern day and age of D.N.A. and compulsory finger printing for certain jobs or types of volunteer work.....DO YOU THINK HE COULD EVADE CAPTURE AND I.D. THIS LONG?

Thanks --your gnarly American Blue Collar buddy -------Working Class AL :angry:

Edited by WORKING CLASS AL
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As always J.V.E . -you are a wealth of knowledge on what has to be the most fascinating case in all of the annals of True Crime history. In another thread a lot of people have argued about whether Charlie ( Manson) was a genius, moron, or just lunatic.....I think I would categorize the Zodiac in the area of twisted genius.

J.V.E ---in this modern day and age of D.N.A. and compulsory finger printing for certain jobs or types of volunteer work.....DO YOU THINK HE COULD EVADE CAPTURE AND I.D. THIS LONG?

Thanks for the nice comment Al, I'm doing my best to find answers to this Unsolved Case.

I think the term "twisted genius" is accurate, well said. I don't think Zodiac was a genius but I think he was a very intelligent man in his own way, just like Manson was. Just think about the complex ciphers he sent to the medias and Authorities, think about the fact he was putting two coats of airplane glue on his fingertips to prevent leaving any fingerprints while he was writting his letters, the fact that he wrote more than 21 letters/cards to the medias/authorities without being caught....He was very intelligent, just like most Serial Killers are. Generally they have a high I.Q., I.Q. perhaps as high as their egos.

And it's a very good question Al, thanks for asking.

In my opinion the fact the murders happened in the late 60's is the major reason why the case is still unsolved, If Zodiac would have committed his crimes in the 90's or 2000's I think this case would be solved. Zodiac was very intelligent, yes, but I am 100% positive that back then he committed some mistakes (for example leaving his DNA, hair on a crime scene)at one point or another during one of his crimes and since they didn't had DNA profiling back in 1968-1969 then perhaps the key to solve this case was lost. Don't get me wrong I am aware that today, in this modern day and age of DNA profiling, that there is still a lot of Unsolved Cases but when I think about the amount of letters/ciphers/cards that Zodiac wrote (more than 21), the number of crimes that Zodiac committed I am almost 100% positive that at some point he left his DNA either on the letters or at a Crime Scene and perhaps it would have revealed the identity of the killer, but I am only speculating right now, sadly there is no way to know. But Mr. Ken Narlow, who was the original detective assigned to investigate the Zodiac's attack at Lake Berryessa, clearly stated many times that he thought that the Case would have been solved if they had DNA profiling back then, he also think Zodiac left his DNA on one of the crime scenes.

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Just asking, considering the Zodiac did send so many letters, is it possible to lift DNA from the envelopes or stamps that he licked? Stamps weren't self-adhesive back in the 60's. Even if the suspect is not alive, they could use mitochondrial DNA from family members to test.

Edited by susieice
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Just asking, considering the Zodiac did send so many letters, is it possible to lift DNA from the envelopes or stamps that he licked? Stamps weren't self-adhesive back in the 60's. Even if the suspect is not alive, they could use mitochondrial DNA from family members to test.

Yes, the authorities have tested some of the envelopes and stamps and tried to find the killer's DNA on it, but the problem is that the DNA found on some of the stamps didn't matched any of the suspects. For example they have compared DNA found on a stamp coming from one of the Zodiac letters to Arthur Leigh Allen's (The prime suspect in the case for decades) DNA but there was no match (some people still think that Allen had other people licking his stamps for him since he didn't liked the taste of it).

In 2002, the ABC network obtained access to the SFPD crime lab as it tested several Zodiac letters in search of sufficient DNA in order to create a genetic profile. Dr. Cyndi Holt presented her findings, which excluded Arthur Leigh Allen and two other suspects at the time. Holt stated that the DNA belonged to an individual who, at one time, had “come in contact” with the stamp, however it doesn't mean that it was the killer's DNA, it could have been DNA from one of the investigators or one of the people working for the newspapers. That's the problem with testing the envelopes or the letters, so many people have handled these letters that finding the killer's DNA is almost impossible.

However they did find something; They have found DNA on the "Stine letter". This new evidence was first shown to the public on the ABC broadcast in 2002. As part of their show, ABC showed that in 1996, SFPD discovered by complete chance a small reddish-brown hair stuck in the glue of a stamp on the “Stine letter.” In fact, in terms of DNA in the Zodiac case, this piece of evidence seems to overshadow the questionable fragment of DNA that SFPD currently has in its possession. In a case where SFPD’s lab is dealing with a group of potentially contaminated letters, the hair that they found behind that stamp is another beast entirely. The reason the hair was discovered by chance is simple: It was completely covered by the stamp and was not even visible from the outside of the envelope until the stamp was peeled back by a technician in SFPD's lab in 1996 as part of preliminary DNA work. Since stamps in 1969 were not self-adhering, we know that in order for the glue to have been receptive to catching and retaining this hair, it had to be activated by someone wetting it in some way, presumably by licking it. Therefore, the hair logically had to be placed on the stamp in the very short window of opportunity between the time that the stamp was licked and the time it was placed on the envelope. That is clearly only a small time span of a few seconds.

All of this is great but this new evidence doesn't give us a name or can clearly identify a supect. As far as I know Richard Gaikowski, the best suspect we have right now, didn't had reddish hair, he had dark hair, and I think his family don't want to give a sample of his dNA to the authorities, so we are back to square one....again.

And we can't be really sure the hair was indeed from the killer, perhaps he was really asking other people to lick his stamps, after all he was intelligent enough to put two coats of airplane glue on his fingertips to prevent leaving any fingerprints while he was writting his letters, so perhaps the killer had help from somebody, anything is possible.

Some people think the SFPD are holding informations about the DNA testing, I don't think it's true, after all they have officially closed their investigation of the case years ago and really have no reasons to hide informations to the general public.

Edited by JonathanVonErich
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Good information JVE. The hair on the stamp is interesting. To have been so completely concealed, it would have to have been very short and positioned near the mouth, like a mustache or facial hair, possibly even female if he had someone lick it for him. Could be wrong but have they run any tests on it to see what type of hair it is? Even if it is someone else's, this could be a link to someone who was helping him send these letters. It was well publicized that the Zodiac was sending letters to the press and the police so whoever helped must have wondered what the sender was doing addressing letters to the press.

Edited by susieice
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Good information JVE. The hair on the stamp is interesting. To have been so completely concealed, it would have to have been very short and positioned near the mouth, like a mustache or facial hair, possibly even female if he had someone lick it for him. Could be wrong but have they run any tests on it to see what type of hair it is? Even if it is someone else's, this could be a link to someone who was helping him send these letters. It was well publicized that the Zodiac was sending letters to the press and the police so whoever helped must have wondered what the sender was doing addressing letters to the press.

At one point I really thought the hair on the stamp was interesting too but the discovery was made 9 years ago and the tests made on the hair didn't brought anything new to the case (a name, identity of a new suspect etc.). So sadly I, personally, don't really think it's a huge evidence and just to make things worse the case is not investigated by the SFPD anymore, so really we are back to square one again. :hmm:

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Sorry. Correction: The hair was discovered 15 years ago, in 1996, my mistake.

As far as "evidences" found on a Crime Scene all we have are fingerprints found on the Taxi Cab of victim Paul Stine. The fingerprints were found in the area where the witnesses said they last saw the killer make contact with the cab (in his perceived attempts to be "wiping down the cab"). But sadly we can't be sure that the fingerprints really belongs to Zodiac, it could have been fingerprints from one of the investigators on the scene, that's what a lot of people think. Anyone, from careless crime-scene investigators (yes, this does happen) to paramedics could have been their originator(s), sadly there is no way to know. David Toschi, one of the investigator who was at the Crime scene, said they never took the prints of the paramedics at the scene to use for ruling out false (bloodied) prints. In my opinion this throws some doubt on the prints recovered. It is easy to think that a paramedic who was working on Stine's body accidentally touched the cab, leaving his fingerprints on it, these things happen.

Sadly the likelihood that none of the prints on Stine's cab belonged to Zodiac is extremely high. When it all comes down to it, there existed only one crime-scene print that had any real credibility, and that was the still-fresh palm print that Napa detectives found on the phone booth from where Zodiac made his post-Berryessa phone call that claimed credit for the stabbings. Considering the fact that this print was smudged and ruined during the lifting process, it can safely be concluded that we have no Zodiac crime-scene prints on file.

Did the prints found on Paul Stine's cab belonged to Zodiac ?? Maybe, but sadly we will never know the answer to this question, in part because of the mistakes committed by the investigators on the crime scene. :(

Edited by JonathanVonErich
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It's disheartening to hear how botched the original investigation was. What I don't understand now is why has the SFPD closed the case. It should have remained an open cold case until it's solution. There are cold cases that are still active and much older. Even the Black Dahlia case is still open. I think technically the Jack the Ripper case is still opened. If by some chance some new evidence would show up, how could you reopen the case? It doesn't make any sense to me why they did this unless they knew something they didn't want made public. Why would you just close an unsolved case like that? Just wondering. It seems like it all runs into a roadblock.

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It's disheartening to hear how botched the original investigation was. What I don't understand now is why has the SFPD closed the case. It should have remained an open cold case until it's solution. There are cold cases that are still active and much older. Even the Black Dahlia case is still open. I think technically the Jack the Ripper case is still opened. If by some chance some new evidence would show up, how could you reopen the case? It doesn't make any sense to me why they did this unless they knew something they didn't want made public. Why would you just close an unsolved case like that? Just wondering. It seems like it all runs into a roadblock.

Well the case is closed in San Francisco but it's still open in Napa County and also in the city of Riverside. You can also share tips about the case on The Vallejo Police Department website. But yes, the case has been officially closed by SFPD, sadly.

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If it was'nt for the glasses he would look nothing like the composite sketch. I'd say by his nose that he matches phillips picture more.

Edited by Moooooo
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If it was'nt for the glasses he would look nothing like the composite sketch. I'd say by his nose that he matches phillips picture more.

Hey thanks for sharing.

I respect your opinion, I am very open to the idea that the man on the picture might be Jim Phillips.

However I still don't think we can reach a conclusion based exclusively on the comparison of the two pictures, but anything is possible.

In my humble opinion I think the "Unknown man" looks more like the composite sketch than he looks like Jim Phillips, but it's only my opinion and I could be wrong.

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So, here's a really weird question.... and you're going to think I"m off my rocker here.... but the man in the photo doesn't bother me, but there is something about her that DOES bother me. Are there other pictures available of Darleen from around roughly the same time period? I'm still hung up on her manner of dress. That sweater and her boots are really bugging me... they just don't look like something that someone would have worn in 1966 or 67! And for that matter, her haircut doesn't either. That outfit AND haircut to me looks totally preppy 1985. The sweater is too large and boxy and the print just isn't 1967. I don't know, it's probably stupid for me to read too much into it. It probably is her from 66 or 67... I'm sure I'm overthinking it and it's just what it appears to be, and the Glitteratti side of my personality has simply run amok. LOL

I'm not really sure if this happened much on the West Coast, but on the East Coast (from the 60s to now), if a woman had a pregnancy she didn't want to fully share, she would wear a much larger sweater/sweatshirt. Just a thought.

As for the print, I've seen a similar print from that time frame, well, as far as ski sweaters go.

Edited by MstrMsn
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I know, not the same, but similar enough.

post-107474-0-16019900-1304058167_thumb.

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Huge Update:

I have received an email from zodiackiller.com's webmaster Tom Voigt and he told me:

- Jim Phillips is still alive.

- Jim Phillips know about the new pic and clearly stated that HE IS NOT THE MAN ON THE PICTURE.

I'm trying to get more informations right now, but it's a huge shocker to me, I was beginning to think that mr. Phillips was indeed the man on the picture. Tom Voigt has been in communication with Mr. Phillips for years and swear to me that this information is true. Tom Voigt is not perfect but in my opinion he is a very credible investigator and I believe him, simply because I know he was at one point very close to Darlene's family.

Keeping you posted.

Edited by JonathanVonErich
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Good find JVE. Keep us posted on what you find out. Mr. Phillips likely does know the identity of the man in the photo.

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Good find JVE. Keep us posted on what you find out. Mr. Phillips likely does know the identity of the man in the photo.

Well as far as I know he don't know the identity of the man on the picture, he simply know that it's not himself (duh :lol: ). But even if we don't have the identity of the "unknown man" at least we know that it is not Jim Phillips, so I think this is a huge news, 70% of the discussion of this thread is about mr. Phillips.

I am still trying to contact another source, just in case, not that I don't believe Voigt's statement, but I'm doing it just to be 100% sure. ^_^

Edited by JonathanVonErich
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Good job. Let us know what you find out.

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For some reasons I have my doubts about Tom Voigt's statement. I would really like to read an article or interview about mr. Phillips' statement, have a real definitive proof that he is really aware of the new picture and that he is indeed not the man on the picture.

Some people think Voigt is a fraud, other thinks he is a good investigator. I think he is a good investigator and is credible most of the time, however I agree that some of the things he said (that the man of the picture looked like Richard Gaikowski for example) were not very accurate or serious. So really I don't know what to think.

I won't post in this thread until I have real, solid evidences to back up the fact the man on the picture is or is not Darlene's ex husband Jim Phillips.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don't think they'll ever find out who it was

I agree.

Sadly whoever he was maybe dead now.

:(

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