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The Puzzler

Stan Gooch & The Neanderthal Legacy

294 posts in this topic

Hi Cormac and Swede,

Thank you for your responses, Cormac I agree with you expression of continuously. As for population based numbers I don't fell that with what we have recovered to date is sufficient to make any real judgement on this matter. Earlier I gave two links tha showed parts of Ireland and Wales were ice free during that last iceage.Doggerland was a part of the land mass is it possible that there was a belt of land that was also ice free. After Doggerland sunk into the ocean we may have no way to determine what their popluation might be.This is only one event there have been many of them over time.

With respect to the effect of even one individual dying within a small group I agree with you also, I did however read an article that expressed the idea that they chose their mates from different groups rather than their own. I see them as a highly social and mobile groups because as the family grows so does their hunting territory,they would in all likelihood rotate the culling between family territories and work together in groups then separate after the hunt.I don't see them as isolated groups several groups might have been within half to a day walk from each other,a runner could pass by many groups in a day. Social interactions are what drives creation,communication/religion/law/art/science all attributes of this species.I am not suggesting any far out ideas,we're not talking highly advanced ancient civilizations or aliens,just that this species and possibly our own may have had greater populations at other times.I am not suggesting multi-millions of people but significantly more than what we are presently aware of.

As always I enjoy and respect your input and look forward to any information that you may think is relevant as I find this subject quite interesting and look forward to learning more about it.

jmccr8

.

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Hi Cormac and Swede,

Thank you for your responses, Cormac I agree with you expression of continuously. As for population based numbers I don't fell that with what we have recovered to date is sufficient to make any real judgement on this matter. Earlier I gave two links tha showed parts of Ireland and Wales were ice free during that last iceage.Doggerland was a part of the land mass is it possible that there was a belt of land that was also ice free. After Doggerland sunk into the ocean we may have no way to determine what their popluation might be.This is only one event there have been many of them over time.

With respect to the effect of even one individual dying within a small group I agree with you also, I did however read an article that expressed the idea that they chose their mates from different groups rather than their own. I see them as a highly social and mobile groups because as the family grows so does their hunting territory,they would in all likelihood rotate the culling between family territories and work together in groups then separate after the hunt.I don't see them as isolated groups several groups might have been within half to a day walk from each other,a runner could pass by many groups in a day. Social interactions are what drives creation,communication/religion/law/art/science all attributes of this species.I am not suggesting any far out ideas,we're not talking highly advanced ancient civilizations or aliens,just that this species and possibly our own may have had greater populations at other times.I am not suggesting multi-millions of people but significantly more than what we are presently aware of.

As always I enjoy and respect your input and look forward to any information that you may think is relevant as I find this subject quite interesting and look forward to learning more about it.

jmccr8

.

It's not just a matter of the physical remains, since genetic studies also support low populations amongst early humans.

http://www.livescience.com/culture/090716-neanderthal-population.html

cormac

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Hi Cormac,

Sorry to take so long in responding, I have been looking for other articles to bring to the thread for discussion.I looked at the link you provided and with those numbers it is hard to imagine that there would be much competition for resources considering the expanse of dispersion.

i have been hesitant to use this as an example and hope that it is not taken out of context.There is a religious agricultural community here that many years ago had a limited source for potential mates,the members of these communities all shared the same features as they appeared to be of the same family.This had a negative impact on them and in the late 60s and early 70s they would come to the military bases looking for donors with certain physical characteristics that would fit in with their cultural heritage,blond hair, blue eyes,and of course the bigger and stronger the better.I guess that they would have had very little genetic diversity at that time compared to the population living in their country of origin.

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Hi Cormac,

Sorry to take so long in responding, I have been looking for other articles to bring to the thread for discussion.I looked at the link you provided and with those numbers it is hard to imagine that there would be much competition for resources considering the expanse of dispersion.

i have been hesitant to use this as an example and hope that it is not taken out of context.There is a religious agricultural community here that many years ago had a limited source for potential mates,the members of these communities all shared the same features as they appeared to be of the same family.This had a negative impact on them and in the late 60s and early 70s they would come to the military bases looking for donors with certain physical characteristics that would fit in with their cultural heritage,blond hair, blue eyes,and of course the bigger and stronger the better.I guess that they would have had very little genetic diversity at that time compared to the population living in their country of origin.

Hi jmccr8 - Apologies for not always understanding the basis for some of your queries. You may find the following recent paper to be rather informative in regards to the social/cultural aspect. Note the procurement-related aspects/habitation patterns.

http://onlinelibrary...11.00376.x/full

.

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Hello Swede,

Yes,thank you for the excellent link, this article shows the types of interactions that I thought were a part of their development.I also came across this article that I thought that I had posted yesterday but for some reason it didn't post.It is quite long but I thought that is was a good read and would like to know what your assessment is of the information presented.

Paleoanthropology

I will also add this link for the use of Red Ocher 200kbp

Sciency Thoughts: Neanderthals using red ochre at least 200 000 years ago.

I am still curious what circumstance would lead two species to have similar practices of using red ocher as well as head-binding,would these practices be something that they had arrived at independently or would these customs be assumed by one species to another?

As always thanks for your patience.jmccr8

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Hello Swede,

Yes,thank you for the excellent link, this article shows the types of interactions that I thought were a part of their development.I also came across this article that I thought that I had posted yesterday but for some reason it didn't post.It is quite long but I thought that is was a good read and would like to know what your assessment is of the information presented.

Paleoanthropology

I will also add this link for the use of Red Ocher 200kbp

Sciency Thoughts: Neanderthals using red ochre at least 200 000 years ago.

I am still curious what circumstance would lead two species to have similar practices of using red ocher as well as head-binding,would these practices be something that they had arrived at independently or would these customs be assumed by one species to another?

As always thanks for your patience.jmccr8

Hi jmccr8. Just a few notes, etc.

In regards to your first reference - In general, reasonably sound. However, it is a bit dated. For general lay purposes, you may find the following to be more current, as it is updated on a more regular basis. Segments of this reference have been presented in the past, but do not recall referring you to the main body.

http://anthro.paloma...mo2/default.htm

The following is also credible:

https://humanorigins...idence/genetics

In regards to the second reference, you may find the original paper to be more informative:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....16/?tool=pubmed

Also:

http://www.scienceda...11013141807.htm

http://cogweb.ucla.e...nguage (Scroll down).

As noted in the paper by Roebroeks, et. al., (2012), the utilization of red ocher is documented to have taken many forms, including utilitarian. This brings us into the realm of the evaluation of cognitive matters. Was the ocher utilized for symbolic purposes, or more pragmatic applications such as adhesives? In addition, we would again be dealing with a limited data-base.

Also, note the timeline aspects as they relate to the utilization of ocher in Europe and Africa. Given current understandings relating to the digression and movement of the two species, it may be tentatively speculated that the utilization of ocher, for whatever purpose, was the result of independant actions.

The cranial binding practice would appear to occur at a notably later time period than the utilization of red ocher and would not appear to have any currently perceived level of universality during the (early) relevant period. Given the (once again) limited examples of such during this period, it may be premature to extrapolate that this practice was the result of species/cultural interaction.

.

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Hi Swede,

I had a chance to look through the first three links last night,I had my grand-daughter and she stayed a little later last night so I will do a proper read this evening.This is the type of material that I have been looking for,Thank you so much,from what I have seen so far I will likely have some other questions later,I have got to run for work so have a good day.

jmccr8

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Hi Swede,

I've been quite busy lately and haven't had much time to get back to the discussion.After reading some of the links that you gave I have a couple of questions.

The paper on the use of ochre,they say that it was used in Africa for skin protection,is this to protect them from UV? I thought that darker skin was the natural protection provided by evolution,could you please elaborate if there is other documentation.

In the last link that you provided about hominid lines they state that there were some Homo Erectus remains found dating to 27kbp-53kbp. I am not implying that there was contact with Hss or Neandertals ,I am just curios as to whether or not H Erectus and Neandertal or H Erectus and Hss would have still been able to interbreed and produce viable offspring?

I did have some other questions but when I went to refresh my memory and read though your second link I couldn't get the page to load I will try again later as I know that I did see something in there that I wanted to ask you about.

jmccr8

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Hi Swede,

I've been quite busy lately and haven't had much time to get back to the discussion.After reading some of the links that you gave I have a couple of questions.

The paper on the use of ochre,they say that it was used in Africa for skin protection,is this to protect them from UV? I thought that darker skin was the natural protection provided by evolution,could you please elaborate if there is other documentation.

In the last link that you provided about hominid lines they state that there were some Homo Erectus remains found dating to 27kbp-53kbp. I am not implying that there was contact with Hss or Neandertals ,I am just curios as to whether or not H Erectus and Neandertal or H Erectus and Hss would have still been able to interbreed and produce viable offspring?

I did have some other questions but when I went to refresh my memory and read though your second link I couldn't get the page to load I will try again later as I know that I did see something in there that I wanted to ask you about.

jmccr8

Hi jmccr8. Yes, have been most occupied myself. Travel and research have definitely limited my available time.

Ocher - Bear in mind that the Blombos Cave article utilized the qualifier possibly. Without further data (genetic), it would be rather difficult to begin to postulate on the levels of melanin production amongst the individuals involved. Am unaware of any studies in this regard. Issues of preservation come into play. To date, the only human remains recovered consist of nine teeth. Also note that the ethnographic studies cited by Roebroeks, et. al. (2012) refer to the utilization of ocher as an insect repellent, another form of skin protection.

H. erectus/viability - Am again unaware of any research that would support interbreeding with sapiens, neanderthalensis, or the Denisovans. While, at this juncture, it may be premature to issue an absolutist statement, it would be my personal inclination to suggest that the probability of such would be quite low.

When one considers the divergence of erectus from ergaster some 1.8 million BP and the much more recent divergence of sapiens from heidelbergensis, genetic compatibility would not likely be conducive to viable offspring. Again, just my thoughts.

.

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I swear my first husband had a super orbital ridge

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I swear my first husband had a super orbital ridge

Not at all unlikely. The degree of prominence of the supraorbital ridge of the frontal bone is actually one of the distinguishing characteristics between the cranial structures of males and females amongst H.s.s. The degree of expression of this feature can vary.

.

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Hi Swede,

Thanks for the response,yes after re-reading the article after some sleep the eyes were working much better,or maybe the eyes were fine and the brain was tired but I got it now.

I still can't get your second link to open,as I said earlier I had read it once and would like to go over it in more depth,has the article been deleted,or is there another means by which that I can find it?

jmccr8

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Hi Swede,

Thanks for the response,yes after re-reading the article after some sleep the eyes were working much better,or maybe the eyes were fine and the brain was tired but I got it now.

I still can't get your second link to open,as I said earlier I had read it once and would like to go over it in more depth,has the article been deleted,or is there another means by which that I can find it?

jmccr8

jmccr8 - Hopefully, the following will function properly.

http://humanorigins....idence/genetics

Let me know if there are any further issues.

Swede

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Thanks Swede,

That link is working fine much appreciated.

jmccr8

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I came across a few articles that I thought that I would include in this thread.The first article is about the cannibalism 800kbp,now this is a different hominid line,and the link after is about 4 hominid lines that went extinct.

Early Cannibalism Tied to Territorial Defense? | Hominid Hunting

Four Species of Homo You've Never Heard Of | Hominid Hunting

This article is on the earliest modern human fossils found in SE Asia

Lao skull earliest example of modern human fossil in Southeast Asia

I have these two links for Neanderthals,the first is about their hunting abilities and the second deals with their occupation in Europe.

Neandertals Sophisticated And Fearless Hunters, New Analysis Shows

The Last Neandertals? Late Neandertals And Modern Human Contact In Southeastern Iberia

I am going to include this link on the aquatic ape theory as well

A New Aquatic Ape Theory | Hominid Hunting

jmccr8

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I saw this article about French researchers and Norwegian and Russian scientist that are studying the Byzovaya site in the Polar Ural region of Northern Russia. They have found signs of mammoth and reindeer that bear the traces of butchering by Mousterian hunters dating is stated to be at 28,500bp.

This site is a 1000 kilometers north of any other know sites and may have occured after the proposed demise of the Neandertal culture.

Last Neanderthals near the Arctic Circle?

jmccr8

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I am also going to post these two links that I found, the first describes the use of cosmetics and body ornamentation from as site in Spain dating to 50kbp, so we know that this behavior is not due to influence of copying Homo Sapiens as they were not know to each other at this time. This shows that their behavior was symbolically organized.

Use of body ornamentation shows Neanderthal mind capable of advanced thought

This second link discusses that scientists have confirmed that there were 3 sub-groups of Neandertals with a possible forth in Western Asia based on morphologigal skeletal evidence.Their is hope that this study with give better insight into regional diversity.

Three Neanderthal Sub-groups Confirmed

jmccr8

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I saw this article about French researchers and Norwegian and Russian scientist that are studying the Byzovaya site in the Polar Ural region of Northern Russia. They have found signs of mammoth and reindeer that bear the traces of butchering by Mousterian hunters dating is stated to be at 28,500bp.

This site is a 1000 kilometers north of any other know sites and may have occured after the proposed demise of the Neandertal culture.

Last Neanderthals near the Arctic Circle?

jmccr8

You may be interested to know that there's another site nearby that's a bit older at c.34,400 BP - 37,400 BP known as Mamontovaya Kurya. Also the Yana Rhinoceros Horn Site c.26,250 BC which is some 1700+ miles east is further north than either of the first two sites.

http://donsmaps.com/kurya.html

http://archaeology.about.com/od/yterms/qt/yana_rhs.htm

cormac

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Hi Cormac,

Great links and thanks for adding them.Every since I started focusing on this avenue of interest I seem to be in a constant state of awe,when I first began to look into Hss and Neandertal interaction I was under the impression that anywhere north of Africa was basically a giant game reserve as there would have been no hominid activity until70-90kbp,but as I have looked around I can see how little I knew. Every time I see an article I find more that tells me such a different story, now I see that hominids have been in Great Briton at 800bp,at this point I doubt that I will live long enough to truely quench my curiosity,to bad I don't have enough time to devote to my interests on a daily basis but I do what I can with what time I can spare.

I don't think that I can adequately express how much I appreciate the guidance that you,Swede,Puzzler,Abe,Kmt-Moderator-sesh and several others have been to me in inspiring me to move forward to grow in understanding.I know that I do not phrase things the right way at times and thank all of you for you patience and willingness to help,I worked by myself for may years in my trade and it has consumed much of my life so I have some difficulty expressing my thoughts at times, I've been talking to myself for so many years that I some times forget that none of you were there and missed some of the great conversations that I had with me.Haha

jmccr8

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Hi,

I know it has been a while since I have been active in this thread,but it has always been on my mind.I have been trying to find information that would show me qualities that were unique to neandertals or Hss,this has not been as simple as it sounds as they were more similar than not.This doesn't come as a surprise as they diverged from a common ancestor and would have developed with similar social structure and technology.

I did find some articles that I found interesting and will post links to them,I would like it if those of you who have participated in the past,or any others who share an interest in this subject would respond to any of the information that is put forward.

I did have two articles on tool-making but deleted instead of copying the link I will try to find it again as it showed a stable long term occupation in England 50kbp and there were several tousand artifacts discovered.This the link to the one I still have.

On Neandertal Stone Tools & Estimations Of Their Intelligence « Anthropology.net

This next link shows that Neandertals had a seafood diet much earlier than previously known

Neanderthal man lived on seafood far earlier than previously thought - Telegraph

This following article discusses how far Neandertals spread out over geographic areas

Neanderthal empire grows - Telegraph

This link discusses cannibalism but I thought that some of the information on dna was interesting

Grisly Scene Gives Clues to Neandertal Family Structure - ScienceNOW

Swede or Cormac I would like your views on this following link,now I will say right off that I am not in agreement with what their projection of longetivity but for the article I was curious as to wheter or not there was any accuracy in the information presented by the author

The Neanderthal Theory of Autism

This final link describes wooden structures used by Neandertals and suggests that it would identify working transient groups that either returned to this site as a stop-over or was used by several similar working groups as they traveled to and fro.They also suggest that these small groups were part of a larger group that was established elsewhere.

A Very Remote Period Indeed: Neanderthal wooden structures, sleeping areas and group size at Abric Romaní

Thanks for your time

jmccr8

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Hi,

I know it has been a while since I have been active in this thread,but it has always been on my mind.I have been trying to find information that would show me qualities that were unique to neandertals or Hss,this has not been as simple as it sounds as they were more similar than not.This doesn't come as a surprise as they diverged from a common ancestor and would have developed with similar social structure and technology.

I did find some articles that I found interesting and will post links to them,I would like it if those of you who have participated in the past,or any others who share an interest in this subject would respond to any of the information that is put forward.

I did have two articles on tool-making but deleted instead of copying the link I will try to find it again as it showed a stable long term occupation in England 50kbp and there were several tousand artifacts discovered.This the link to the one I still have.

On Neandertal Stone Tools & Estimations Of Their Intelligence « Anthropology.net

This next link shows that Neandertals had a seafood diet much earlier than previously known

Neanderthal man lived on seafood far earlier than previously thought - Telegraph

This following article discusses how far Neandertals spread out over geographic areas

Neanderthal empire grows - Telegraph

This link discusses cannibalism but I thought that some of the information on dna was interesting

Grisly Scene Gives Clues to Neandertal Family Structure - ScienceNOW

Swede or Cormac I would like your views on this following link,now I will say right off that I am not in agreement with what their projection of longetivity but for the article I was curious as to wheter or not there was any accuracy in the information presented by the author

The Neanderthal Theory of Autism

This final link describes wooden structures used by Neandertals and suggests that it would identify working transient groups that either returned to this site as a stop-over or was used by several similar working groups as they traveled to and fro.They also suggest that these small groups were part of a larger group that was established elsewhere.

A Very Remote Period Indeed: Neanderthal wooden structures, sleeping areas and group size at Abric Romaní

Thanks for your time

jmccr8

Hi jmccr8,

The source of the "Autism" article is the below:

http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm

Have reviewed this piece of work and it is riddled with factual errors, unsubstantiated suppositions, and speculation. For example:

Primates originally were very small and evolved during the era of dinosaurs (Emphasis added). Erroneous. See below:

http://anthro.paloma...tes/early_2.htm

Australopithecus is most likely a descendant of Oreopithecus, and lived in Africa 3 million years ago. (Note: Spelling of descendant was corrected from the original, which is incorrect. The supposition itself is unsubstantiated, the date is inaccurate).

Australopithecus anamensis may have been the earliest australopithecine species. They lived about 4.2-3.9 million years ago in East Africa.

http://anthro.paloma.../australo_2.htm

For more on Oreopithecus:

http://www.pnas.org/...5/8795.full.pdf

http://www.nyu.edu/g...reopithecus.pdf

Based on archaeological evidences, it seems most reasonable to assume that modern humans originated somewhere in Asia. This statement and the material that follows is quite the jumble. If the author is referring to H.s./H.s.s., it is demonstrably incorrect based upon current understandings.

Researchers claim modern man and Neanderthals were isolated for 700,000 years. Inaccurate:

By 300,000 years ago, some of these populations had begun the evolutionary transition that would end up with Neandertals.

http://anthro.paloma.../mod_homo_1.htm

There are numerous other examples. The allusion to matriarchal societies being the result of Neandertal genetic mixing is quite humorous. Will not consume any more space in elaborating. In short, one may wish to place this reference in the circular file.

You may find the following quite current articles to be of interest in regards to your studies:

http://www.sciencene...ted_by_redating

http://popular-archa...bors-says-study

Hope that the above is of assistance.

.

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Hi Swede,

Thanks for the links and your evaluation,much appreciated.My apologies for being late in responding,as I have been working extra hours and other commitments.As well I have been a little sidelined as I bought a 3d projector and have spent what little free time that I have had watching some movies,mostly kid's movies because of my grand-daughter but I did manage to see a couple of big guy movies when I have been alone.

jmccr8

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Hi All,

I came across this article and thought I would add it here.Some of the reseach material is based on findings by Svante Poablo of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Lupzig Germany.The link is quite lengthy but covers a lot of areas of research,but gives the reader a good overview of what is known about Neanderrtals.

Further on in the link there are a couple of articles on the "pioneer man" or Homo Anticessor having been in Briton 840k-950kbp,Their findings suggest that they numbered in the hundreds to a few thousand at most.Some of the data is quite suggestive and make one wonder if these humans could adapt and live under those conditions is it possible that some may have traveled to different places,islands,continents, that we have not discovered evidence of their presence of yet.

Neanderthals: They were human | Windows Live space

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I also have this study by Rebecca Wragg Sykes,This paper investigates social structure and trade within the Neandertal culture.In part the study follows lithic trade and manufacturing to determine trade networks and group interactions.These tended to be in the form of blanks or tools that were adaptable and could be used for cores.At the very least given the increase in the archeological evidence of long distance transfers.

Neanderthals 2.0? Evidence for expanded social networks, ethnic diversity and encultured landscapes in the Late Middle Palaeolithic | Rebecca Wragg Sykes - Academia.edu

jmccr8

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