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The Puzzler

Stan Gooch & The Neanderthal Legacy

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Hi j , interesting info... i like the part about finding peas and beans on Neanderthal teeth . I can't help think... that in their familiarity with peas and beans.. someone noticed that a sprouting bean plant was attached to (of all things) a Bean! I don't recall ever hearing anything about Neanderthals gardening... but......... it makes me wonder anyway.

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Hi Lightly,

I suppose that it is possible that they grew some foods,but I wouldn't state it as so without some researched or documented study.I had placed a link in another thread some time back that shows that fire was used to clear land so that tubers and edible roots could grow faster,this was determined to have occurred 75-55kbp.

The thread was "Plant/Human Symbiosis and the Fall of Humanity" and this was the link posted

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/human-migration.html

Pages 3 and 4 deal with diet

jmccr8

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I don't know but is it possible that they noticed that if they removed other plants from areas where the roots and tubers or whatever desirable food resources that they would be more bountiful.You really couldn't say that they were agrarian as they weren't physically planting seeds with an expectation to harvest,it would be more like assisting it to be more productive by modifying their environment.

In the second article about the ancient occupation of Briton in the link in post 274.They speculate that this species of hominid may have adapted to the colder environment by eating more plant in the summer and meat in the winter.Their diet consisted of roots,shellfish,seaweed and tracking grazing animals.

Charcoal was found at the site but it has not been determined as to whether its source is due to natural or controlled fire.They also imply that they may have worn some protective clothing and built shelters.

I realize that what I have read to date does not affirm any opinion in my mind other that given their numbers they were obviously not hampered by the changes in their environment and adapted.Could any of this been passed on down to following species of homo.I am not sure if I can word this question properly,and I hope you realize that I only ask as a curiosity.Could these kinds of changes cause that species to evolve into a new species or even more than one species?I guess there is more than one question but I'll just ask one for now.

Thanks

jmccr8

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I don't know but is it possible that they noticed that if they removed other plants from areas where the roots and tubers or whatever desirable food resources that they would be more bountiful.You really couldn't say that they were agrarian as they weren't physically planting seeds with an expectation to harvest,it would be more like assisting it to be more productive by modifying their environment.

In the second article about the ancient occupation of Briton in the link in post 274.They speculate that this species of hominid may have adapted to the colder environment by eating more plant in the summer and meat in the winter.Their diet consisted of roots,shellfish,seaweed and tracking grazing animals.

Charcoal was found at the site but it has not been determined as to whether its source is due to natural or controlled fire.They also imply that they may have worn some protective clothing and built shelters.

I realize that what I have read to date does not affirm any opinion in my mind other that given their numbers they were obviously not hampered by the changes in their environment and adapted.Could any of this been passed on down to following species of homo.I am not sure if I can word this question properly,and I hope you realize that I only ask as a curiosity.Could these kinds of changes cause that species to evolve into a new species or even more than one species?I guess there is more than one question but I'll just ask one for now.

Thanks

jmccr8

Yes it's possible since much the same, or at least similar, kind of thing was what became the start of domesticating food crops from what I understand.

What timeframe are you thinking of? The Denisovans, who are more closely related to Neanderthals than us, would have been at best an offshoot very early on. And there's nothing to show that Neanderthals survived long enough to evolve into a more recent species AFAIK.

cormac

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Posted (edited)

Hi Lightly,

I suppose that it is possible that they grew some foods,but I wouldn't state it as so without some researched or documented study.I had placed a link in another thread some time back that shows that fire was used to clear land so that tubers and edible roots could grow faster,this was determined to have occurred 75-55kbp.

The thread was "Plant/Human Symbiosis and the Fall of Humanity" and this was the link posted

http://www.smithsoni...-migration.html

Pages 3 and 4 deal with diet

jmccr8

interesting j ... Early modern man manipulating the environment to advantage. Pretty ingenious.

Edited by lightly

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Hi Cormac,

Thanks for the reply.I really hadn't looked at a time frame that this may have occurred,I was just struck with the question and knew that between 950kbp til now seems like a reasonable amount of time for something to have occurred.I did wonder if they may have been the genus of either the Denisovans or Neanderthals or both.and if they may have interacted with other hominids.

Based on what little there was in that article and after re-reading the link in post 277 it seemed to make sense to me that they were intuitive enough to manage the growth of their food source these and other practices would carry on to the following species.As the species developed they would modify their knowledge and at some point start saving seeds and sowing them according to the skies and stars.

jmccr8

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Hi Lightly,

Early hominid species were quite aware and manipulated stone into tools,we can see that they understood their food source,and even traveled distances to find new mates in order to keep their offspring healthier and protecting their survival.I have much to learn in these subjects and enjoy finding out more.Neanderthals and Hss both evolved with the ability to make tools,hunt,gather food,and I suspect that they may have had some religious ideology.and social construct that preceded them and that they modified.

jmccr8

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Hi Cormac,

Thanks for the reply.Ireally hadn't looked at a time frame that this may have occurred,I was just struck with the question and knew that between 950kbp til now seems like a reasonable amount of time for something to have occurred.I did wonder if they may have been the genus of either the Denisovans or Neanderthals or both.and if they may have interacted with other hominids.

Based on what little there was in that article and after re-reading the link in post 277 it seemed to make sense to me that they were intuitive enough to manage the growth of their food source these and other practices would carry on to the following species.As the species developed they would modify their knowledge and at some point start saving seeds and sowing them according to the skies and stars.

jmccr8

I only wondered about the timeframe you might be looking at, as it would change the line of Homo in question. Within the last c.1 million years we could be talking about the possibility of extant Homo erectus, H. heidelbergensis, H. neandertalensis, Denisovans, early Homo sapiens or whatever lineage is responsible for the Gawasis Cranium. All of which span an rather large range.

cormac

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Hi Cormac,

I had only considered Denisovans and Neanderthals as possibility as the other species of Homo Erectus,H.Hiedelbergenis came out of Africa at a later date than the Homo anticessor is recorded to have been in Britain.My understanding is that the split between Hss and Neanderthals did not originate in the same local as there would have had to have been some conditions that prevailed and cause the species to evolve and adapt.Yes they did occupy some areas in close proximity at some locations in Europe and the Middle-East,but this does not appear to be a time or location that the conditions would have had the effect of causing the split .My understanding of the subject might be skewed so I ask to further my understanding.

Thanks

jmccr8

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Hi Cormac,

I had only considered Denisovans and Neanderthals as possibility as the other species of Homo Erectus,H.Hiedelbergenis came out of Africa at a later date than the Homo anticessor is recorded to have been in Britain.My understanding is that the split between Hss and Neanderthals did not originate in the same local as there would have had to have been some conditions that prevailed and cause the species to evolve and adapt. Yes they did occupy some areas in close proximity at some locations in Europe and the Middle-East,but this does not appear to be a time or location that the conditions would have had the effect of causing the split .My understanding of the subject might be skewed so I ask to further my understanding.

Thanks

jmccr8

I'm going to assume that you meant an "earlier" date as a "later" date would suggest being closer to our time.

Actually the split between Homo sapiens and Homo neandertalensis appears to have been in Africa according to the most recent genetics study I've read. And since Denisovans appear to have split prior to the Neanderthal/HS split it too would be expected to have occurred in the same area as well. And if your timeframe were, for instance, in the 40,000 BP area then the latest available information on Neanderthals suggest they were extinct at approximately that time while HSS was in Italy by c.45,000 BP and England by c.42,200 BP. Which is why I wondered about the timeframe you might be investigating.

cormac

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Hi Cormac,

I would be interested in reading whatever link you can provide on the split occurring in Africa.I thought that Neanderthals physically adapted to a colder climate.Where in Africa was it cold enough to effect those physical adaptations?I am not saying that these H.Anticessor had evolved into either Denisovans or Neanderthal I was just asking,and while I'm asking questions I may as well pose another.The article says that some of the groups moved south during the ice age and went back after while others stayed,there have been articles that have been publshed stating that it is possible and in some cases likely that there was inter-breeding with other hominid species.What would be the likelihood of there being some interaction and effect on the development of Neanderthal or Denisovans.As always Thanks

jmccr8

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Hi Cormac,

I would be interested in reading whatever link you can provide on the split occurring in Africa.I thought that Neanderthals physically adapted to a colder climate.Where in Africa was it cold enough to effect those physical adaptations?I am not saying that these H.Anticessor had evolved into either Denisovans or Neanderthal I was just asking,and while I'm asking questions I may as well pose another.The article says that some of the groups moved south during the ice age and went back after while others stayed,there have been articles that have been publshed stating that it is possible and in some cases likely that there was inter-breeding with other hominid species.What would be the likelihood of there being some interaction and effect on the development of Neanderthal or Denisovans.As always Thanks

jmccr8

On the split of Neanderthal/HS:

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003404#close

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120813155521.htm

I hope these help you.

cormac

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Posted (edited)

20120205-Sapiens_neanderthal_comparison.jpg

Hi Cormac,

I would be interested in reading whatever link you can provide on the split occurring in Africa.I thought that Neanderthals physically adapted to a colder climate.Where in Africa was it cold enough to effect those physical adaptations?I am not saying that these H.Anticessor had evolved into either Denisovans or Neanderthal I was just asking,and while I'm asking questions I may as well pose another.The article says that some of the groups moved south during the ice age and went back after while others stayed,there have been articles that have been publshed stating that it is possible and in some cases likely that there was inter-breeding with other hominid species.What would be the likelihood of there being some interaction and effect on the development of Neanderthal or Denisovans.As always Thanks

jmccr8

I started a while ago a thread on Neanderthals:

Neanderthal, Olmec, Sykes and Heyerdahl

Homo neanderthalensis; Craniofacial pneumatisation; Paranasal sinuses; Environmental adaptation

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=228672

and this is what i find definite proof about Neanderthals not being adapted to the cold conditions in which they thrived, and, therefore, vanished from the face of the planet.

The Neanderthal face is not cold adapted

http://www.eva.mpg.d...rnal Club March

Just to throw in a couple of nonsense...

Regards,

Mario Dantas

Edited by Mario Dantas

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Hi Cormac,

Thanks for the links,I have only time for a quick read now but will read both articles again after work.In the second link they state that adaptation occurred due to isolation and environment in Europe and Asia and that the ancient hominids had separated 500kbp into Europe.Again I am lead back to these hominids that were in Britain 950kbp and isolated during ice ages,are these not the criteria required for genetic change?If they numbered form hundreds to several thousands in Britain alone,what would the population of this species be in warmer climates further south and did they spread to the east as well?

I will get back to this later this evening as I have to run off to work for now.Thanks again

jmccr8

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Hi Cormac,

Thanks for the links,I have only time for a quick read now but will read both articles again after work.In the second link they state that adaptation occurred due to isolation and environment in Europe and Asia and that the ancient hominids had separated 500kbp into Europe.Again I am lead back to these hominids that were in Britain 950kbp and isolated during ice ages,are these not the criteria required for genetic change?If they numbered form hundreds to several thousands in Britain alone,what would the population of this species be in warmer climates further south and did they spread to the east as well?

I will get back to this later this evening as I have to run off to work for now.Thanks again

jmccr8

Actually it means the common ancestor of Neanderthals and Hss (likely Homo heidelbergensis) already lived in a large area from Africa to Europe by that point in time.

It's possible, if their genetics are passed on. However, at the time they are believed to have lived there were no Neanderthals nor even Hss in existance to pass anything on to. And as opposed to the finds in Spain there are no physical remains of Homo antecessor that have been found in Britain. It all revolves around the claimed tools that were found. This is a big flag in my book.

cormac

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Hi Cormac

I read through the links you gave.I can't say that I understood the first link as a whole, although I am sure that I got the overall gist of it.Thanks for the info as it helps me to understand.I am curious and like to poke things with a stick to see what happens(things not people)so when I saw the article it made me wonder about new things.

Many times when I see older dates in certain parts of the world it makes me wonder if other species had traveled to other continents earlier in history,or areas no longer accessible.How many continent had inland mega lakes and how did it affect the migration of hominids?North America had one and I suspect that even after it's draining there would have been more major waterways.If people came here during the last ice-age by boat I can see a population spreading out over a vast area fairly quickly,As the waterways depleted isolation would ensue.The same could apply to Europe and Africa.

jmccr8

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Hi Mario,

Yes I have followed that thread as well as your Atlantis thread,I am short of time this evening and will look at your links after I take care of my daily rituals.I did read an article in the link that Thanks

jmccr8

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test test

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Hello Mario,

I read your links as well as re-read your Neanderthal thread to refresh my memory.To be honest I do not support the notion that Neanderthals and Olmecs are related.Yes I do wonder if things in the past may have been different than what we are presently aware of and speculate to some degree,that said I still rely on verified and researched scientific data.

It is a given that what has been discovered through scientific study is valid and the base from which further research to expand on.Do I think that there is more to be discovered about ancient hominids,of course,and so does science,it's just that sometimes some of us me in particular like to ponder other potentialities.That is all they are musings of and unqualified person looking forward to learning more.

jmccr8

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