Randi's Challenge

[IamsSon]

Good point.....

I now declare myself a " certain ".....

So you have absolute, undeniable proof then?

[markdohle]

"Skeptics" have facts and proven evidence that back up their " claims "......

Big difference here.

Real "Skeptics" yes. Then there are those who believe that some things are simply impossible and go from there. Randi could be like that.....

Peace

mark

[chaoszerg]

Real "Skeptics" yes. Then there are those who believe that some things are simply impossible and go from there. Randi could be like that.....

Peace

mark

Not everything is possible but there are people who like to delude themselves and think anything is possible. I think people are mainly upset with Randi because he is waging a crusade against all those pretend psychics out there role playing that they have super powers and especially gunning for those who try and make money off it. He does not just gun for psychics though, he goes after fake medical treatments also and other things. If people want to be angry at Randi and make him shut up, then they should just go show their supposed real powers in a controlled environment and do the tests that are asked of them instead of crying evil skeptics, or spewing out excuses.

Heck some of the people in the metaphysic section should be able to put him in his place with their supposed weather controlling abilities, fire bending abilities, psy energy weapon abilities and other supposed super powers they claim to have. I am sure no one will step up to it though.

[markdohle]

Not everything is possible but there are people who like to delude themselves and think anything is possible. I think people are mainly upset with Randi because he is waging a crusade against all those pretend psychics out there role playing that they have super powers and especially gunning for those who try and make money off it. He does not just gun for psychics though, he goes after fake medical treatments also and other things. If people want to be angry at Randi and make him shut up, then they should just go show their supposed real powers in a controlled environment and do the tests that are asked of them instead of crying evil skeptics, or spewing out excuses.

Heck some of the people in the metaphysic section should be able to put him in his place with their supposed weather controlling abilities, fire bending abilities, psy energy weapon abilities and other supposed super powers they claim to have. I am sure no one will step up to it though.

I think your point is valid, however, our world views do limit us as well as give us a hold on reality. There are I believe real deals out there but for those who believe it is impossible for anything 'other' to happen, they will not see it. It is like people who do not believe love is possible, well, they live in a loveless world. Below is something from a web page I like. I think Victor is on t something.

Here is something from Victors's Zammit web page: http://www.victorzammit.com/

BRILLIANT EVIDENCE OF MATERIALIZATIONS OF DAVID THOMPSON: We investigated materialization medium David Thompson weekly for 15 months. But the most spectacular evidence for the afterlife was when my wife Wendy's father materialized announcing his name. He was in the 'flesh'. He was speaking as when a loved one talks to you. It was his voice. It was his mannerism. No one in the experiment knew of Wendy's (pictured) maiden name. No one knew about the intimate circumstances raised by Wendy's father about their early life; no one knew about very special relationship she had with her brother. There was physical contact when her father kissed Wendy on the forehead. Further, Wendy's father materialised a piece of paper with his signature on it - which perfectly matched his signature on existing documents. Absolutely, that kind of evidence would have sent an accused to the gallows in a courtroom situation. Of course, the spiritually blind, deaf and dumb - and other dummies, would not understand the hugely great value of this magnificent materialization evidence.

MORE MATERIALIZATIONS: UNREBUTTABLE, ABSOLUTE, POWERFUL AFTERLIFE EVIDENCE : another most memorable materialization of David Thompson was when my own younger sister Carmen materialized. Carmen crossed over just more than twelve months ago. She was familiar with materializations because she sat twice with David's Circle of the Silver Cord. Carmen was there, fully materialized 'in the flesh', she knew about some very intimate circumstances no one knew about during this materialization experiment. Carmen also was the artist to do a picture of David Thompson's guide from the afterlife 'William' (pictured, left). Names were mentioned of her husband and others. Other very special information was was also mentioned about the circumstances which happened to her before her death. All this spectacular evidence meant that she was who she claimed to be. I repeat: materialization of afterlife entities is the best, most convincing evidence for the afterlife we have to-day.

Edited May 14, 2011 by markdohle

[chaoszerg]

I think your point is valid, however, our world views do limit us as well as give us a hold on reality. There are I believe real deals out there but for those who believe it is impossible for anything 'other' to happen, they will not see it. It is like people who do not believe love is possible, well, they live in a loveless world. Below is something from a web page I like. I think Victor is on t something.

Even Randi has said himself there could be real deals out there, but the only ones really showing up are the liars and the people who have deluded themselves into thinking they have some sort of powers.

As for evidence of the afterlife in that link I seemed to notice that it is something that wishes to mix religion and science, which is not a smart thing to do. I would love for such things to be real like psychic powers and I am hoping that somewhere out there a genuine person will step up and show the world that such things are real. Unfortunately though all we have at the moment are liars and people who genuinely believe they have some sort of power, but really dont.

Its not that scientists just do not believe it and refuse to see any evidence. There just is not any convincing evidence that such things are real and also many of these supposed people with psychic powers have no way of measuring their own power, or have a understanding of how other factors can influence their own tests that they do to convince themselves. That is why such things have to be done under a controlled environment by the correct people and they have to be strict on the test and conditions.

Edited May 14, 2011 by chaoszerg

[The Silver Thong]

So you have absolute, undeniable proof then?

You mean proof that a fairy tale is not real?

Who cares about the Randi challenge. If I had the ability to prove Randi wrong and take his million dollars I would think of that as chump change I would hand it over to a bum on the street. Imagine some kid sitting in his parents basement that has the ability to move things with his mind and saying, No I don't need a million dollars

Bi pass Randi and go to a University then another and another and reap the rewards once your abilities have been peer reviewed. Rich beyond your wildest dreams. Or are they scared the goberment will steal them and do experiments on them

[EvilAL]

The only frauds involved in the psychic phenomenon are the people who are stealing money from people by claiming to have a special gift that nobody in the history of mankind has been able to prove. They are the frauds. They hate Randi because he knows how to expose them and use retarded excuses like they have nothing to prove. They are taking money from people under false pretenses and they should have to prove it. Charging people for psychic readings should be illegal. Fraud all the way.. They can stick their little "for entertainment only" disclaimers on there, but they prey on the weak and vulnerable.

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

It's far from fair, thats the point. Dont be so naive, Randi will never publicly admit he's wrong. We all know this deep inside.

If you're gonna create a "challenge" like this, you always make sure that you have a way out. Like this line taken from the Challenge Application you posted

Why? Is he untouchable? We can all see that it is a *well-founded* accusation

I think Randy would love to be proved wrong. Just as any skeptic I know would loved to be proved wrong too.

Most believers don't understand that about skeptics.

[IamsSon]

I think Randy would love to be proved wrong. Just as any skeptic I know would loved to be proved wrong too.

Most believers don't understand that about skeptics.

I think the number of skeptics who tell themselves and others they want to be proven wrong is small.

[SolarPlexus]

If you really were psychic, however, then you would know that Randi isn't going to give you any money, ever.

Do we really need psychic abilities to know that? x)

[SolarPlexus]

I think Randy would love to be proved wrong.

Okay. Then why did JREF include this line in the contract?

If the Prize is awarded, this would not mean that the JREF acknowledges the existence of the supernatural.

Like you see, he made sure he can never be proven wrong. He is basicaly doing what every normal businessman would have done, construct safety measures in the contract.

Its perfectly legal and rational to do this, but it is not skeptical and it is not science thats the point

[tomt]

It's Randi's money he's fronting up, frankly if it were me, I'd demand that I be the final arbiter of who it goes to as well.

what proof do you have, that randi, has anything?

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what i already know -

'randi', does not have a million dollars.

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Edited May 14, 2011 by tomt

[ShadowSot]

Real "Skeptics" yes. Then there are those who believe that some things are simply impossible and go from there. Randi could be like that.....

Peace

mark

Most skeptics go like that. If something violates what we know is scientifically and realistically impossible, one of the tools many skeptics use is Occam's Razor, you start of with the most likely answer first, that they are faking it.

Carl Sagan mentioned that incredible claims require incredible evidence, you want to convince someone that you can really mind read or dowse or something, you need to provide evidence that you're not more than a scam artist or a deluded fool.

Okay. Then why did JREF include this line in the contract?

Like you see, he made sure he can never be proven wrong. He is basicaly doing what every normal businessman would have done, construct safety measures in the contract.

Its perfectly legal and rational to do this, but it is not skeptical and it is not science thats the point

Actually, it very much is skeptical and scientific. Fooling JREF does not equal out to proving paranormal activity. Being a organization of humans it's entirely possible someone could fool them.

Science will never vouch something 100%.

I can't explain several of Houdini's tricks, that I know of, no one's been able to figure his walking through walls trick.

He was very much against the paranormal (The Million Dollar Challenge is a successor to his own challenge he set in his day.)

Just because you can't figure out how they did it doesn't mean it's not a trick, but they still will have won the challenge.

what proof do you have, that randi, has anything?

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what i already know -

'randi', does not have a million dollars.

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You're right, James Randi himself doesn't.

The JREF does. The money is stored in an investment account with Goldman and Sachs:

http://classic-web.archive.org/web/20031212044149/http://www.skepticreport.com/images/investmentaccount.gif

Edited May 14, 2011 by ShadowSot

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

I think the number of skeptics who tell themselves and others they want to be proven wrong is small.

I totally disagree. Every skeptic I have ever talked to would love to see proof of the paranormal. It would bring excitment to their life.

[stevefork]

May I remind everyone that James Randi exposed the psychic Uri Geller, but still, people who believes in Geller continues to believe him....thats what you call Belief perseverance in psychology. Again, it was also Randi who exposed the televangelist Peter Papoff, who eventually went bust. But He is back now, bigger than ever and still fooling a lot of people. It seems that no matter what you do, people still want to believe these frauds and would not accept the fact that they are not real. People are just suckers. I tell you, James Randi is very good at exposing this frauds. During the time when Gellar was so popular in the 70's, he even fooled scientists, this is because the scientist werent as scrutinizing and doesnt know the magicians trade and con like Randi does. This is what makes him so good at what he does. These psychics, if they can really do waht they say they can, they will and should be able to perform their abilities under scrutiny, unfortunately, they cant because every single one of them is a fraud.

[Sakari]

I think the number of skeptics who tell themselves and others they want to be proven wrong is small.

I would Love to see a Bigfoot, a Flying Saucer from another place/time/dimension and it's Pilots, PSI Balls, Psychic abilities, and especially Ghosts and Demons....

I mean this, I would love to say I am wrong, and would be the first in line screaming it at the top of my lungs.

When I first joined here, I thought " rods" were bugs, " orbs" were ghosts, and that Ghost Hunters ( show ) were really onto something.I also thought Bigfoot could possibly exist.

After a lot of research, and information from this site, I have educated myself to look at facts, and look at ALL the information that is out there...

I now feel better about how I look at things without just assuming.....

I really would love to see the above, or actually see real evidence and proof of the existence.

[chaoszerg]

Okay. Then why did JREF include this line in the contract?

If the Prize is awarded, this would not mean that the JREF acknowledges the existence of the supernatural.

Like you see, he made sure he can never be proven wrong. He is basicaly doing what every normal businessman would have done, construct safety measures in the contract.

Its perfectly legal and rational to do this, but it is not skeptical and it is not science thats the point

I am not sure but the term supernatural is such a sweeping statement. If a psychic went on and was able to prove their powers and won the prize money, then okay they proved to THEM they had some sort of psychic power, but saying okay I acknowledge the supernatural could be taken to mean acknowledging life after death, ghosts, demons and other things.

I think they have to be wise with their choice of words. Just because a guy strolls on and is able to move things with his mind, does not mean there are people who can manipulate fire, water, the weather or speak to and see dead people.

I think if someone was able to prove their powers then give them the money and then invite them to help with further research in the field, also paying the said psychic a nice steady wage in the process for being kind enough to help. But it does not mean people should assume that there are all sorts of psychics because one guy can move things with his mind, or that other supernatural stuff and abilities are out there and real.

Edited May 15, 2011 by chaoszerg

[IamsSon]

I am not sure but the term supernatural is such a sweeping statement. If a psychic went on and was able to prove their powers and won the prize money, then okay they proved to THEM they had some sort of psychic power, but saying okay I acknowledge the supernatural could be taken to mean acknowledging life after death, ghosts, demons and other things.

I think they have to be wise with their choice of words. Just because a guy strolls on and is able to move things with his mind, does not mean there are people who can manipulate fire, water, the weather or speak to and see dead people.

I think if someone was able to prove their powers then give them the money and then invite them to help with further research in the field, also paying the said psychic a nice steady wage in the process for being kind enough to help. But it does not mean people should assume that there are all sorts of psychics because one guy can move things with his mind, or that other supernatural stuff and abilities are out there and real.

I think this only applies if people take an all or nothing approach to things. If it turns out that telekinesis is real, does that automatically mean elves and fairies are also real? Only someone completely unhinged would demand that it is so, and only someone as equally unhinged would demand that until angels, demons, ghosts, and elves and fairies are proven true will telekinesis be real. So, it does seem like Randi is legally providing himself with an out. He can legally state he has paid out the prize because he was unable to catch "the trick" but that it in no way means he witnessed a supernatural event and so demean the character of the person who won the prize to retain his own reputation and worldview. Edited May 15, 2011 by IamsSon

[chaoszerg]

I think this only applies if people take an all or nothing approach to things. If it turns out that telekinesis is real, does that automatically mean elves and fairies are also real? Only someone completely unhinged would demand that it is so, and only someone as equally unhinged would demand that until angels, demons, ghosts, and elves and fairies are proven true will telekinesis be real. So, it does seem like Randi is legally providing himself with an out. He can legally state he has paid out the prize because he was unable to catch "the trick" but that it in no way means he witnessed a supernatural event and so demean the character of the person who won the prize to retain his own reputation and worldview.

I see your point there.

We can only hope that he would not stoop that low and actually be a good sport about things and hold his hands up and say yep there is a psychic. Heck if I held such a test and a real psychic came along and proved themselves, I would be overjoyed and want to know how such things are done.

[IamsSon]

I see your point there.

We can only hope that he would not stoop that low and actually be a good sport about things and hold his hands up and say yep there is a psychic. Heck if I held such a test and a real psychic came along and proved themselves, I would be overjoyed and want to know how such things are done.

I think what the poster is pointing out is that Randi's approach indicates that he would not be standing with you as you celebrated a real psychic event. I think even among skeptics here on UM you will find that a majority firmly BELIEVE they can discredit any psychic claim because there is no way, no how, no time when a supernatural event can ever be real. They are not just people who seek to study an event objectively, they are people who have a worldview which is firmly founded on the idea there is no possibility of the supernatural.

[ali smack]

It would be funny if Randi was ever proved wrong though

[SolarPlexus]

So, it does seem like Randi is legally providing himself with an out.

Absolutely. The $1.000.000 challenge is perfectly legal, maybe i shouldn't have used the term "fraud"

[ShadowSot]

Absolutely. The $1.000.000 challenge is perfectly legal, maybe i shouldn't have used the term "fraud"

The point is, passing the challenge doesn't necessarily equate to paranormal.

Most likely, if someday someone does win, the announcement will follow the wording of:

"We grant So Anne Sow the sum of 1,000,000 dollars in such a way that we can not conceive of a way she passed it without a supernatural means."

Which is pretty much what a scientific or skeptic person should say.

Then likely they'd invite her/him back for further studies, it's what I'd do.

Aside from providing a double whammy to the case, by examining it could move it from paranormal to normal.

[SolarPlexus]

The point is, passing the challenge doesn't necessarily equate to paranormal.

I must agree. But then the $1 Million Challenge is pure bussiness, not science.

[ShadowSot]

I must agree. But then the $1 Million Challenge is pure bussiness, not science.

Science doesn't work in definites either. Which is why I pointed out that most likely they would continue to study.