Randi's Challenge

[SolarPlexus]

It is like a competition/game show. The organizer makes the offer, drafts his conditions, is the judge and jury in his own offer. The person who wins the Challenge gets the money. Does it do anything for science? No.

It is wrong to consider Randi a true skeptic and a scientist with honest intentions. He was a stage magician for 30 years and now he is a showman. That is fundamentally the same.

Edited May 15, 2011 by SolarPlexus

[Soul Kitchen]

Perhaps the most legitimate psychics are not the type to care much about money.

Similar to how the more advanced martial artists become the less desire they have for fighting.

This is just a thought, don't attack me for it.

[IamsSon]

I must agree. But then the $1 Million Challenge is pure bussiness, not science.

It's not science or business, it's more of an "I know there's no such thing as the paranormal, so even if someone does something and I can't explaining it, it will not be paranormal, it will merely mean I can't explain how I'm being fooled" kind of thing.

[ShadowSot]

It is like a competition/game show. The organizer makes the offer, drafts his conditions, is the judge and jury in his own offer. The person who wins the Challenge gets the money. Does it do anything for science? No.

It is wrong to consider Randi a true skeptic and a scientist with honest intentions. He was a stage magician for 30 years and now he is a showman. That is fundamentally the same.

To claim that because they include the addendum that passing the challenge does not prove the paranormal therefor proves that they are frauds and Randi a pseudo skeptic is misleading at best. Randi is not a scientist, true, which is why the crew who is brought in to set up the tests usually is comprised of specialists relating to the person who's going to go through the challenge.

This can include scientists, mentalists, or whomever is appropriate.

Randi uses the challenge as a tool, and again, he is not directly involved in the challenge. Instead it's left to the people who are assembled to set up the challenge for the person doing the challenge.

Thy are the ones who decide whether or not the person has passed the challenge, Banacheck is the one who weighs in on it.

[booNyzarC]

I really don't get why people have it out for James Randi. He's just trying to expose charlatans for what they are in an effort to protect people from getting swindled. If you don't like what he does, feel free to book a phone call with Sylvia Brown to hear about your past lives or relatives or whatever else is on your mind. I'm sure Sylvia will appreciate your contributions.

In the mean time I'll just keep on appreciating the efforts of people like James Randi.

[ShadowSot]

I'm sure Sylvia will appreciate your contributions.

Speaking of her, might as well plug Robert Lancaster's site, StopSylvia.com.

Mr. Lancaster's a member of this site, actually, though he's not really active.

[SolarPlexus]

I shouldn't have named this thread the way i did and call Randi a fraud, i apologize. What he's doing is perfectly legal. I only wanted to discuss the scientific credibility of the Challenge itself, and i asked a moderator to rename this thread accordingly (if he finds my request reasonable)

Edited May 16, 2011 by SolarPlexus

[ShadowSot]

I shouldn't have named this thread the way i did and call Randi a fraud, i apologize. What he's doing is perfectly legal. I only wanted to discuss the scientific credibility of the Challenge itself, and i asked a moderator to rename this thread accordingly (if he finds my request reasonable)

Since specialists are called in respective to the particular challenges, the challengers are submitted to multiple trials to rule out the chance of uh... chance, and the entire process is done with the agreement of those being tested.

The addendum, that passing the Million Dollar challenge does not prove the paranormal, is also a good skeptical and scientific statement.

[AZTom]

Perhaps the most legitimate psychics are not the type to care much about money.

Similar to how the more advanced martial artists become the less desire they have for fighting.

This is just a thought, don't attack me for it.

OK, I'm not attacking."Perhaps the most legitimate psychics are not the type to care much about money." I assume you are suggesting that they are spiritually above the desire for wealth,not that they are communists. I don't see the connection between psychic abilities and not needing/wanting money, but I'll give you the benfit of the doubt. These psychics, who have spiritually transcended greed and all its ills,wouldn't want the million dollars to give to their charity of choice. I have trouble picturing the person who wants neither wealth nor to help his fellow man. Please help me see what I am missing.

[Sakari]

OK, I'm not attacking."Perhaps the most legitimate psychics are not the type to care much about money." I assume you are suggesting that they are spiritually above the desire for wealth,not that they are communists. I don't see the connection between psychic abilities and not needing/wanting money, but I'll give you the benfit of the doubt. These psychics, who have spiritually transcended greed and all its ills,wouldn't want the million dollars to give to their charity of choice. I have trouble picturing the person who wants neither wealth nor to help his fellow man. Please help me see what I am missing.

If they did not want money because they are so nice, how about a little "heads up " to some Tsunami's , Earth Quakes, or some Planes flying into buildings?

Maybe even a whereabouts to a missing child?

[Carrie White]

I have a history of spontaneous mind-matter interaction, also known as recurrent spontaneous psychokinesis. There's been times when I thought things, and they happened, but I have no control over how this happens or even how to predict it will occur. I might just go reach for the shampoo bottle and it will fly into my hand....or things just randomly go haywire. I would make an idiot of myself if I went in and nothing happened, or I may have a good day and a bunch of crazy stuff would happen. Either way, people will either think I am crazy, or have super powers, neither of which is true. I'm just an ordinary person who has weird stuff happen. And yes, I am enrolled in studies at two different Universities right now. I don't want fame, I would like the money, but I admit I have no control. I also have known others who have submitted applications that were refused by Randi. I know he is not a scientist, yet he is asking people scientifically prove something that is not quantifiable at this time? Is he saying that we have the ability to measure all energy/matter in the Universe? That's mighty arrogant, and most scientist would agree there are many things out there that are unexplainable because we just do not understand.

[thewatchman7]

I have a history of spontaneous mind-matter interaction, also known as recurrent spontaneous psychokinesis. There's been times when I thought things, and they happened, but I have no control over how this happens or even how to predict it will occur. I might just go reach for the shampoo bottle and it will fly into my hand....or things just randomly go haywire. I would make an idiot of myself if I went in and nothing happened, or I may have a good day and a bunch of crazy stuff would happen. Either way, people will either think I am crazy, or have super powers, neither of which is true. I'm just an ordinary person who has weird stuff happen. And yes, I am enrolled in studies at two different Universities right now. I don't want fame, I would like the money, but I admit I have no control. I also have known others who have submitted applications that were refused by Randi. I know he is not a scientist, yet he is asking people scientifically prove something that is not quantifiable at this time? Is he saying that we have the ability to measure all energy/matter in the Universe? That's mighty arrogant, and most scientist would agree there are many things out there that are unexplainable because we just do not understand.

now, at risk of being called closed minded, why for the world, would you not just film as much of yourself as possible and capture these occasional extrodinary events?

[Carrie White]

now, at risk of being called closed minded, why for the world, would you not just film as much of yourself as possible and capture these occasional extrodinary events?

I've had these things happen to me since I was a child, as far back as I can remember. Would you really want a camera in your face 24/7 for something that has become pretty much a mundane part of your life? I don't like being around people. I am pretty much a hermit most of the time. I don't like being "popular" or known. Belonging to research was a big step for me, but has helped me understand these things happen to normal people, and I can calm it down through relaxation techniques as well as focused attention exercises. It's not easy. I'm not the most patient or attentive person. I want to learn to control it, or calm it down, and just live a normalish life. I also want to understand myself better, and the nature of the Universe, if this has anything to do with that. I make enough to live comfortably in a house I own, so I wouldn't need a bunch of money. It would be nice, but I doubt the offer is real, and I also can not perform on command. I guess it might be seen as more of a ailment or emotional disorder than an "ability."

[SolarPlexus]

I also have known others who have submitted applications that were refused by Randi. I know he is not a scientist, yet he is asking people scientifically prove something that is not quantifiable at this time? Is he saying that we have the ability to measure all energy/matter in the Universe? That's mighty arrogant, and most scientist would agree there are many things out there that are unexplainable because we just do not understand.

Please do not pay attention at Randi. It is naive to think he has honest intentions in proving the paranormal.

He deceives people by making them think they can prove something, while in reality Randi and his foundation (JREF) made sure through the contract that they can can never be proven wrong

If the Prize is awarded, this would not mean that the JREF acknowledges the existence of the supernatural. (source)

This is an excerpt from the Challenge Application i.e. contract. So even if someone meets the Challenge and actually gets the $1.000.000 (unlikely), they still wont acknowledge the paranormal! This means the $1,000,000 Challenge has no value for science and is nothing more than a competition/game show.

peace

[ShadowSot]

Please point out how that statement is not scientific?

Completing a challenge by itself doesn't prove a paranormal event, only that the person successfully passed the challenge which the participant themselves agreed to.

[Sakari]

I have a history of spontaneous mind-matter interaction, also known as recurrent spontaneous psychokinesis. There's been times when I thought things, and they happened, but I have no control over how this happens or even how to predict it will occur. I might just go reach for the shampoo bottle and it will fly into my hand....or things just randomly go haywire. I would make an idiot of myself if I went in and nothing happened, or I may have a good day and a bunch of crazy stuff would happen. Either way, people will either think I am crazy, or have super powers, neither of which is true. I'm just an ordinary person who has weird stuff happen. And yes, I am enrolled in studies at two different Universities right now. I don't want fame, I would like the money, but I admit I have no control. I also have known others who have submitted applications that were refused by Randi. I know he is not a scientist, yet he is asking people scientifically prove something that is not quantifiable at this time? Is he saying that we have the ability to measure all energy/matter in the Universe? That's mighty arrogant, and most scientist would agree there are many things out there that are unexplainable because we just do not understand.

One of the better excuses I have ever heard, good job !

I am the same, sometimes I can throw a football 80 yards and hit a paper plate, other times I can't even throw it 10 yards.If I could just control it, I would be in the NFL with a Multi-Million Dollar contract.

Please do not pay attention at Randi. It is naive to think he has honest intentions in proving the paranormal.

He deceives people by making them think they can prove something, while in reality Randi and his foundation (JREF) made sure through the contract that they can can never be proven wrong

This is an excerpt from the Challenge Application i.e. contract. So even if someone meets the Challenge and actually gets the $1.000.000 (unlikely), they still wont acknowledge the paranormal! This means the $1,000,000 Challenge has no value for science and is nothing more than a competition/game show.

peace

It is all real simple, people make claims of PSI Balls, Psychic ability, telekenesis, etc....When it comes time to take it out of the words posted on the internet, the " special gift" goes away....

I would bet people posting this, and defending it, do not say anything like this to friends or family in person......Could you imagine?....

" really Johhny, you can move things with your mind?...Show us Johhny, show us !!!!!!

You can say Randi is fake or whatever you want, point is, no one can, and never will be able to back up their fantasy posts with evidence...Even without Randi's challenge, there would be more then Millions to be made, and no one can tell me people do not need income right now.....( could even use it for charity).....

[Mr. Miyagi]

I would like to present Miyagi's challenge as an alternative. Bear with me... a bit of a rant if you will.

Let's be honest, anyone with these abilities has two options. Put up or shut up. Bottom line. Excuses will be given and are given as to why they will not put up. Randi isn't the only game in town either. "I don't want the attention." Is my favorite. Really? Then what on earth are you doing posting about it on an internet forum? I posit that it's the exact opposite. All they want is attention. They will never be taken seriously unless they prove it. Show something. Go to a university. Show your "powers"!! If not, they have nothing. Best option is to shut up. no offense. People like this spend all their time hoping and wanting to have these fantastic abilities. Hoping and wanting the world to be this incredible place.

Here's the first part of my challenge. Open your eyes. It is a wonderful place. Stop imagining fairies in the bushes and see the bushes for what they are. See what actually lives in those bushes. The world is wonderful for what it is. Right there in front of you. Not for what you wish it to be. Not for some spiritual world/mystical energy/etc... you think underlies it. this world, it's real. It's tangible. The feel of a leaf between your fingers. The feel of rain as it drips through your hair, down your face, and off the tip of your nose. The smell of wet dirt after a storm. Real. Tangible. Enjoy it. Embrace it. Rather than claiming that you can move something with your mind, let go of your fantasy and move something with your hands.

This nonsense doesn't impress me, even if someone really were to be a phsychic warrior with every type of tele/aero/pyro/erectile/bullstein/Dungeonsndragons kinesis they can think of. That doesn't impress me.

Do something. That's the last part of the Miyagi challenge. Do something. Help the guy next to you. Volunteer at a homeless shelter. Something. Anything.

No more goo goo ga ga games. Do something useful. Be it either with these "abilities" or with their own crushingly mundane human hands. Those hands, engaged in something useful, are far more beautiful than any mystical ability anyone could ever hope to posess.

That's a fact.

Thanks for reading. Carry on.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Mr. Miyagi

[+Sherapy]

I would like to present Miyagi's challenge as an alternative. Bear with me... a bit of a rant if you will.

Let's be honest, anyone with these abilities has two options. Put up or shut up. Bottom line. Excuses will be given and are given as to why they will not put up. Randi isn't the only game in town either. "I don't want the attention." Is my favorite. Really? Then what on earth are you doing posting about it on an internet forum? I posit that it's the exact opposite. All they want is attention. They will never be taken seriously unless they prove it. Show something. Go to a university. Show your "powers"!! If not, they have nothing. Best option is to shut up. no offense. People like this spend all their time hoping and wanting to have these fantastic abilities. Hoping and wanting the world to be this incredible place.

Here's the first part of my challenge. Open your eyes. It is a wonderful place. Stop imagining fairies in the bushes and see the bushes for what they are. See what actually lives in those bushes. The world is wonderful for what it is. Right there in front of you. Not for what you wish it to be. Not for some spiritual world/mystical energy/etc... you think underlies it. this world, it's real. It's tangible. The feel of a leaf between your fingers. The feel of rain as it drips through your hair, down your face, and off the tip of your nose. The smell of wet dirt after a storm. Real. Tangible. Enjoy it. Embrace it. Rather than claiming that you can move something with your mind, let go of your fantasy and move something with your hands.

This nonsense doesn't impress me, even if someone really were to be a phsychic warrior with every type of tele/aero/pyro/erectile/bullstein/Dungeonsndragons kinesis they can think of. That doesn't impress me.

Do something. That's the last part of the Miyagi challenge. Do something. Help the guy next to you. Volunteer at a homeless shelter. Something. Anything.

No more goo goo ga ga games. Do something useful. Be it either with these "abilities" or with their own crushingly mundane human hands. Those hands, engaged in something useful, are far more beautiful than any mystical ability anyone could ever hope to posess.

That's a fact.

Thanks for reading. Carry on.

LOL, my thoughts exactly !!!

There are so many ways a person can be special, find one and be that person. I say.

If I had a dollar for every time I knew something was likely to happen in my own life or others close to me I'd be a millionaire. This is part of the human experience, the little hamsters only do so much and quite frankly we have a front row seat to our own lives.

P. quite frankly this is the best post on here.

I agree, I enjoy the hell out of my life , bare bones , raw, good and bad, the tears, the challenges, the love, the joys, letting go when I need too etc etc. I dig it. For me living vicariously through fantasy would be the equivalent of wasting my life.

My only regret is I didn't get this younger, but regard less I am making up for lost time now.

I don't have time for nonsense, I am too busy living. .

Edited June 2, 2011 by Sherapy

[Rafterman]

Seems a bit funny to me that of all of the tens of thousands of individuals out there that claim to have certain powers and have no problem taking other people's money, that not a single one would have stepped forward and claimed the challenge money.

For example, if I claim to be a deviner that can find water and have made a living off of finding water for folks, the first thing I would do is go get this $1 million bucks.

[Carrie White]

One of the better excuses I have ever heard, good job !

I am the same, sometimes I can throw a football 80 yards and hit a paper plate, other times I can't even throw it 10 yards.If I could just control it, I would be in the NFL with a Multi-Million Dollar contract.

That would be pretty awesome. If I could control the poltergeist activity I would not have to live a life of chaos. That's my main goal in working with these professors. I don't want to be a super hero, and do not think I have an ability. I don't think you understand what phenomena I am talking about. Here's a link that might explain it better than I could. RSPK

There's no way for me to make you believe me, and I would not want to. I wouldn't believe me if I were you. I respect your beliefs and understand your desire for absolute proof. I am only offering up the real reason why someone who has abilities or strange phenomena might not want to go public. This place is anomynous, so I feel free to talk about it. I can handle the skepticism, but I don't think I could handle the attention if everyone were to know.

[Rafterman]

That would be pretty awesome. If I could control the poltergeist activity I would not have to live a life of chaos. That's my main goal in working with these professors. I don't want to be a super hero, and do not think I have an ability. I don't think you understand what phenomena I am talking about. Here's a link that might explain it better than I could. RSPK

There's no way for me to make you believe me, and I would not want to. I wouldn't believe me if I were you. I respect your beliefs and understand your desire for absolute proof. I am only offering up the real reason why someone who has abilities or strange phenomena might not want to go public. This place is anomynous, so I feel free to talk about it. I can handle the skepticism, but I don't think I could handle the attention if everyone were to know.

You make a good point, but you also have to conceed that there are many with claimed abilities that love the limelight and crave attention and notariety. You would think that they would be first in line to accept the challenge.

[Long_Gone]

Perhaps the most legitimate psychics are not the type to care much about money.

Similar to how the more advanced martial artists become the less desire they have for fighting.

This is just a thought, don't attack me for it.

Hello SK,

A more advanced martial artist should be able to demonstrate his skills, but what about a legitimate psychic?

[ShadowSot]

Solar, this will make it the third time I've asked you this, you've stated that Randi's challenge violates scientific principles.

In what manner does it do so?

How does passing the challenge explicitly prove paranormal abilities?

[Long_Gone]

I really don't get why people have it out for James Randi. He's just trying to expose charlatans for what they are in an effort to protect people from getting swindled.

Great point, Nobody should believe in a psychic/healer or whatever until he has proven himself. These so called psychics usually have the ability to draw people into their scam because they're very good at giving false hope to people.

[Long_Gone]

Seems a bit funny to me that of all of the tens of thousands of individuals out there that claim to have certain powers and have no problem taking other people's money, that not a single one would have stepped forward and claimed the challenge money.

For example, if I claim to be a deviner that can find water and have made a living off of finding water for folks, the first thing I would do is go get this $1 million bucks.

There're hundreds and thousands of websites out there with people posting stories claiming to have supernatural powers and psychics and how their parents/friends are aware of this. Even if majority of these psychics 'don't want attention', it only takes one of them to think 'hey maybe i could prove my abilities and be famous/rich'.

You'd think that at least one of them would come forward and take up a challenge like this or at least go somewhere and prove themselves. Claiming that 'psychics don't want attention' doesn't really make any sense.