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Persia

Roswell was Soviet plot to create US panic

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My question about Roswell is whether all the witnesses are complete liars? There are hundreds of civilian and military witnesses, and the only way to deny the whole story about some kind of weird thing crashing there is if all of them are 100% liars or 100% crazy.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1944311/the_roswell_ufo_crash_case_roswell_confessions/

How can there be hundreds of witnesses?

And do you mean still alive, or dead?

This would mean that the people saying this was a mundane incident blown out of proportion would then have to be liars, so what would make the pro crowd more believable? Are not most of those testimonies that contradict in depth investigation merely fleeting instances?

I personally believe the Roswell incident has contributed to the mockery of UFOlogy as a whole more than any other investigation due to the credulous nature of the ever expanding tale.

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You go, Habitat....LMAO. Guess the new book just ignores all the statements of Marcel to Stanton Friedman and hundreds of corroborating stories. Disinformation is a powerful tool. Too work this hard, on multiple levels to discredit the incident, and keep doing it for this long, only lends more credence to the original stories. Right on 747400!

It's one way on someones trying to get rich list.

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It might be possible but if they were trying to scare Americans why crash in the middle of no where? If it were the Soviets they would probably done that in Washington, DC or a populated area the whole thing just doesn't make any sense.

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It might be possible but if they were trying to scare Americans why crash in the middle of no where? If it were the Soviets they would probably done that in Washington, DC or a populated area the whole thing just doesn't make any sense.

The crash was close to Roswell Army Airfield, where the worlds only nuclear capable bomber group resided. It was also close to Project MOGUL operations, which spied on the Soviets.

Not advocating the theory, but there is a couple reasons.

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Yes, absolutely they did... one that springs to mind off the top of my head is a fire fighter that was 'on scene' - he said he saw 'aliens'. I think he even claimed that he felt the 'thought', 'You can't help me', as if the alien was communicating telepathically...

There was military - some guard who claimed he was allowed a peek...

Wasn't there a nurse too?

The purported Naomi Self never existed.

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Nazi Aliens/Commie Aliens > Ancient Aliens/Spiritual Aliens

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You forgot Chineese Aliens,American Indian Aliens,West Side Stroy Aliens,and Blue Men Aliens, And last but not least OBAMA aliens. :blink:

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The crash was close to Roswell Army Airfield, where the worlds only nuclear capable bomber group resided. It was also close to Project MOGUL operations, which spied on the Soviets.

Not advocating the theory, but there is a couple reasons.

And that, surely, just as much as the suggestion of crashing in the middle of Washington, is all the proof one could need of the preposterousness of the whole theory. Leaving aside all the silliness about genetically modified mutants, it might be worth bearing in mind that the last thing Stalin wanted was a war with the US, before he'd been able to develop his Bomb, and that's what this kind of adventure would inevitably have led to.

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Posted (edited)

The crash was close to Roswell Army Airfield, where the worlds only nuclear capable bomber group resided. It was also close to Project MOGUL operations, which spied on the Soviets.

Not advocating the theory, but there is a couple reasons.

Project Mogul balloons were not spy balloons, they were simply research balloons, and, they were not classified. That is why questionnaires were attached so anyone who recovers Mogul balloons could add their own data input such as location, time, and rate of decent if known, etc.

A former KGB agent did a televised interview and stated that the Roswell incident is what brought the special attention of Joseph Stalin and of the Soviet Union.

Edited by skyeagle409

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Project Mogul balloons were not spy balloons, they were simply research balloons, and, they were not classified. That is why questionnaires were attached so anlyone who recovers Mogul balloons, could add their own data input, such as location, time and rate of decent if known, etc.

Good God you are boring.

No, MOGUL Balloons were not classified, the data they gathered was, and the resultant project. Hence the compartmentalisation. Not like you needed to pop that in as we have been over this a billion times already, I said MOGUL Spied on the Soviets, surely you agree with that?

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And that, surely, just as much as the suggestion of crashing in the middle of Washington, is all the proof one could need of the preposterousness of the whole theory. Leaving aside all the silliness about genetically modified mutants, it might be worth bearing in mind that the last thing Stalin wanted was a war with the US, before he'd been able to develop his Bomb, and that's what this kind of adventure would inevitably have led to.

Hard to say really, Stalin was a madman, and the Cold War was with the states for global domination. Not much seemed to stand in his way when he wanted something. Good point, but when dealing with someone like Stalin, I feel it would be hard to say.

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Good God you are boring.

Just presenting the facts.

Mogul balloons were occasionally recovered by civilians within the U.S., not in the Soviet Union. One Mogul balloon was recovered by a lone policeman in Flatbush, after the balloon snagged itself on the roof of a tarvern. The Soviet's first nuke blast was discovered by a modified B-29, not a Mogul balloon. As I've said before, Mogul balloons were nothing more than unclassified research balloons.

No, MOGUL Balloons were not classified, the data they gathered was, and the resultant project.

The data gather by Project Mogul balloons was for research purposes only.

Hence the compartmentalisation.

That doesn't make any sense considering that even the name; Project Mogul was not classified, so there was no need to ccompartmentalize simple unclassified research balloons.

I said MOGUL Spied on the Soviets, surely you agree with that?

Well, what does history have to say about that?

U.S. Intelligence and the Detection of the First Soviet Nuclear Test, September 1949

image01_sm.jpgJoe-1, 29 August 1949. Photo from Peter Curan’s film "Trinity and Beyond: The Atomic Bomb Movie," as displayed on nuclearweaponsarchive.org, and used with permission of Peter Curan.Washington, DC, September 22, 2009 - Sixty years ago this week, on 23 September 1949, President Harry Truman made headlines when he announced that the Soviet Union had secretly tested a nuclear weapon several weeks earlier. Truman did not explain how the United States had detected the test, which had occurred on 29 August 1949 at Semipalatinsk, a site in northeastern Kazakhstan. Using declassified material, much of which has never been published, this briefing book documents how the U.S. Air Force, the Atomic Energy Commission, and U.S. scientific intelligence worked together to detect a nuclear test that intelligence analysts, still unaware of the extent to which the Soviets had penetrated the Manhattan Project, did not expect so soon.

Stalin and the Soviet Politburo were probably stunned by Truman's announcement; they did not know that Washington had a surveillance system for detecting the tell-tale signs of a nuclear test and they wanted secrecy to avoid giving the United States an incentive to accelerate its nuclear weapons activities. (Note 1) Joe-1 (as U.S. intelligence designated it) was also a jolt for U.S. intelligence analysis, which for several years had asserted that the Soviets were unlikely to have the bomb before mid-1953, although mid-1950 was also possible. A few weeks after the test, CIA director Roscoe Hillenkoetter argued that "I don't think we were taken by surprise" because of an error of only a "few months," but not all of his Congressional masters accepted that.

How did the Truman administration discover Moscow’s secret?

Shortly after the Soviet test, on 1 September 1949, a WB-29 ["W" for weather reconnaissance] operated by the Air Force's Weather Service undertook a routine flight from Misawa Air Force Base (Japan) to Eilson Air Force Base (Alaska) on behalf of the secretive Air Force Office of Atomic Energy-1 [AFOAT-1] [later renamed the Air Force Technical Applications Center, or AFTAC]. The plane carried special filters designed to pick up the radiological debris that an atmospheric atomic test would inevitably create. So far none of the flights in the Northern Pacific had picked up a scent, but after this flight returned to Eilson and a huge Geiger counter checked the filters, the technicians detected radioactive traces.

This was the 112th alert of the Atomic Energy Detection System (the previous 111 had been caused by natural occurrences, such as earthquakes). After a complex chain of events, involving more flights to collect more air samples, consultations among U.S. government scientists, consultants, and contractors, including radiological analysis by Tracerlab and Los Alamos Laboratory, and secret consultations with the British government, the U.S. intelligence community concluded that Moscow had indeed conducted a nuclear test. On 23 September 1949, President Truman announced that "We have evidence that within recent weeks an atomic explosion occurred in the U.S.S.R."

What made the detection of Joe-1 possible in the first place was a series of decisions that began in 1947. In September of that year, Army Chief of Staff Dwight D. Eisenhower assigned the Army Air Force, not yet an independent service, with responsibility for establishing an Atomic Energy Detection System (AEDS) so that physical manifestations of overseas nuclear development activity could be discovered. Later that year, the Air Force created what would later become known as AFOAT-1. During and after World War II, the possibility of detecting radioactive particles and emissions (as well as seismic and acoustic indicators) became the subject of protracted research and development work, which included the collection of radioactive samples following U.S. atomic tests. During 1947-1949, a complex process of review and decision at the Defense Department led to the creation of an "Interim Surveillance Research Net" that was operating routinely by the spring of 1949. A more comprehensive surveillance system integrating radiochemical, seismic, acoustic, and other methods was not yet in place.

image02_sm.jpg

My link

As I've said before, the Air Force mislead the Public on Project Mogul. The Soviet's first test was detected by an airplane, not a Mogul balloon train.

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Posted (edited)

Just presenting the facts.

Again, and again, and again, and again..................

Mogul balloons were occasionally recovered by civilians within the U.S., not in the Soviet Union. One Mogul balloon was recovered by a lone policeman in Flatbush, after the balloon snagged itself on the roof of a tarvern. The Soviet's first nuke blast was discovered by a modified B-29, not a Mogul balloon. As I've said before, Mogul balloons were nothing more than unclassified research balloons.

And this affects what I said how?

Big clue - it does not. And you are 100% wrong about the classification of the project, it was the balloons that could not be classified. How do you classify a 600 foot balloon train floating over a populated area? You cannot. Hence the compartmentalisation.

This is the bit you always struggle with.

The data gather by Project Mogul balloons was for research purposes only.

To see if it was a viable method, and it was better than predecessors, it is just that it was superseded yet again. And?

That doesn't make any sense considering that even the name; Project Mogul was not classified, so there was no need to ccompartmentalize simple unclassified research balloons.

Try wrapping your head around this yet agin.

Project MOGUL was classified. The Ballon trains were not.

Well, what does history have to say about that?

That the project was superseded, like all projects eventually are. That is why we call the change progress.

As I've said before, the Air Force mislead the Public on Project Mogul. The Soviet's first test was detected by an airplane, not a Mogul balloon train.

No they did not, you just do not understand Project MOGUL. Such is quite evident in your posting. Just because the projects successor managed to do what MOGUL was designed to do changes nothing. You are simply doing your best to dirty the name of the USAF. Shameful to rag on what you claim to be be your ex employer with no good reason like that.

We have discussed this millions of times, you just want to flame someone on Roswell as is painfully obvious from your difficulty in keeping your word in the BE thread. You are really boring me with this same conversation yet again, bother someone else with repetition would you?

Edited by psyche101

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Hard to say really, Stalin was a madman, and the Cold War was with the states for global domination. Not much seemed to stand in his way when he wanted something. Good point, but when dealing with someone like Stalin, I feel it would be hard to say.

I agree with you about Stalin. Also the communist party itself propped Stalin up the whole time despite all the purges!

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Hard to say really, Stalin was a madman, and the Cold War was with the states for global domination. Not much seemed to stand in his way when he wanted something. Good point, but when dealing with someone like Stalin, I feel it would be hard to say.

Actually i don't think Stalin was insane, not in international relations at any rate. He was very keen to avoid conflict with anywhere before the war (hence the non-aggression pact with Hitler), and after '45 he was very anxious not to provoke conflict with the West, at any rate until he'd got the Bomb - which of course he hadn't in '47. He pushed things as far as he could with the blockade of Berlin, but he could have gone a lot further - just shooting down the British and American planes - if he'd really wanted to provoke a conflict.

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Posted (edited)

Again, and again, and again, and again..................

Question is, Are you learning anything from history?

Big clue - it does not. And you are 100% wrong about the classification of the project, it was the balloons that could not be classified. How do you classify a 600 foot balloon train floating over a populated area? You cannot. Hence the compartmentalisation.

This is the bit you always struggle with.

You mention "compartmentalization," regarding Project Mogul, and yet, the name: Project Mogul appeared in an unclassified letter.

No they did not, you just do not understand Project MOGUL. Such is quite evident in your posting. Just because the projects successor managed to do what MOGUL was designed to do changes nothing. You are simply doing your best to dirty the name of the USAF. Shameful to rag on what you claim to be be your ex employer with no good reason like that.

Well, I respect the Air Force in more ways than one, however, I have slammed the Air Force for misleading the public on UFOs, and I am not alone. Others with the Air Force itself, have done the same, including the Air Force's proejct officer who supplied material used in the Air Force's 1997 Roswell Report. When he saw that the Air Force maniupulated his material, he went public and spoke out and revealed in the Washington Post what I knew all along.

I understand a lot more about Project Mogul than you think, which is why I have told you that you were simply wrong.

Edited by skyeagle409

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So where`s all the Real Alien Stuff ?

Are we to believe that Its all buried and Locked away 4-eva ?

Im thinking ITs all a Smoke Screen,and Popcycles-a-gandas . Very few people really believe we have Alien Tech stuffed away underground.

And even less beleive we have Little Grey,Green,Blue Alien creatures busy working away in those crib`s underground doinf rubic`s cubes and Cooking Horta`s for Dinner.

That being said

Im getting Hungry ! Anyone For some B.B.Q ? And THe Monaco G.P ?

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Finally something that alien believe and disbelieve can agree on that woman is a loon. Say what you want about ufo peoples proof at lest they show it.

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Thanx for the link, OSB! I'm beginning to also sense the Roswell-Soviet-air balloon connection theory is really some wild "tall tale". :mellow: Whatever scientific studies attempt to explain doesn't end the mysterious circumstances surrounding the Roswell incident. Other UFO crashes occurred before and after Roswell, therefore all alledged UFO crash sites need investigation. :alien:

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Posted (edited)

Question is, Are you learning anything from history?

Yes I have learned much. I have learned that you are the sort of person to avoid with regards to the ETH as your zealous and credulous outlook is biased beyond belief and that alone is more than enough reason to not believe a word you say. I learned that you do not keep your word (Pax) I Learned that you do not read others posts and use them as a soapbox to loudly proclaim an appeal to authority. I have learned that facts mean nothing to you where ET is concerned. I have learned that your debating tactics are dishonest to say the least, I have learned that your true talent is flamebaiting, I learned that math is something you do not tackle, but just proclaim is wrong, I learned that Roswell has nothing to do with Aliens. You can take credit for the last claim which is a direct result of your diligent research.

Much more, but is that along the lines you were speaking of?

You mention "compartmentalization," regarding Project Mogul, and yet, the name: Project Mogul appeared in an unclassified letter.

Was compartmentalisation deployed within the MOGUL Project - yes or no?

Can you explain to me the difference between and public domain, and a private communique`?

I did not think so.

Again, I ask you to post a letter I have written within the last seven days, I write about 3 a day, so that you may demonstrate your argument and show me how a private communique` is public domain, because as far as I know, it is not. If you cannot complete this challenge, I would suggest you go back to the drawing board until you can. I am sick to death of having the same conversation with you over and again. What do you hope to accomplish with constantly harassing me with the same crap over and again?

Well, I respect the Air Force in more ways than one, however, I have slammed the Air Force for misleading the public on UFOs, and I am not alone. Others with the Air Force itself, have done the same, including the Air Force's proejct officer who supplied material used in the Air Force's 1997 Roswell Report. When he saw that the Air Force maniupulated his material, he went public and spoke out and revealed in the Washington Post what I knew all along.

I am yet to see you display respect for the Air Force at all. The only time you reference them is when deriding, or claiming to use some poor soul for information. All you do is say that your former employee cannot be trusted. Why they still let you onto bases (if they or you actually do) is beyond me. Ex Employees who just rubbish the employer all the time are not welcomed to keep returning. You see, not much of what you say at all "jives".

And now you AGAIN bring up Madson. You could not even spell his name right to begin with! We have had the Madson discussion far too many times now, just answer the question that ends this debate each and every time I ask it.

Why has Madson not taken his claims to court? If he indeed has been misrepresented, and this is not what it appears to be, which is no more than straight out jealousy that McAndrews "took" Madsons slice of the limelight, then he would have a massive case that not even the USAF could rebut, and he would finally validate all the ET kooks. But he cannot do it. If there is a reason other than he is full of it, please put it up for me to see, you have not been able to do so every since you brought up this crybabies pathetic claim.

I understand a lot more about Project Mogul than you think, which is why I have told you that you were simply wrong.

No you do not, and this is why both Lost Shaman and I have had to direct you to parts of the reports to help you straighten out your wildly incorrect perceptions. You have made so many mistakes that it is not funny with regards to implementation of the project. You are an Anti-authority on MOGUL. This is why you make the above silly claims like Madson's embarrassing antics, why you do not understand compartmentalisation, why you keep saying the MOGUL was not classified, when it is a distinction so simple that my 6 year old can understand it.

So "simply telling" me that I am wrong is ludicrous You may as well offer advice to brain surgeons as you have an equal understanding of brain surgery, i.e nada.

And such has been constantly pointed out to you with backing evidence as opposed to your constant appeal to authority. It really irks you that you cannot convert people to your religion, doesn't it. Now please find a new member to harass with old arguments, nothing other than closure of this thread can be accomplished by your continual harassment with old and completely worn out debates. You bore me, bring something new to the table or go find a goat to stare at.

Edited by psyche101

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http://devoid.blogs.heraldtribune.com/11876/the-devil-spawn-of-dr-mengele/

This lady is a fraud. Read towards the end of this link, it's really all you need to know about Ms. Jacobsen.

I would have to agree, this line from the original link:

In her book, Jacobsen claims that a retired EG&G engineer, who wished to remain anonymous, had told her that he had witnessed the parts and bodies from the alleged crashed UFO near Roswell, NM in 1947. He says they were brought to Area 51 after being stored at Wright Patterson Field in Dayton, Ohio. The reason the base is called Ares 51, Jacobsen claims, is because these materials arrived in 1951.

Is not better than the hearsay that Bragalia sensationalises. An anonymous person said that....... Claims are just claims.

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Caw Caw... A can of whoopass has been released... so quoth the raven. :tu:

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Actually i don't think Stalin was insane, not in international relations at any rate. He was very keen to avoid conflict with anywhere before the war (hence the non-aggression pact with Hitler), and after '45 he was very anxious not to provoke conflict with the West, at any rate until he'd got the Bomb - which of course he hadn't in '47. He pushed things as far as he could with the blockade of Berlin, but he could have gone a lot further - just shooting down the British and American planes - if he'd really wanted to provoke a conflict.

I do not know, surely he expected International condemnation by killing so many? He is known to have said : “I trust no one, not even myself.”

Considering the bomb, I thought that might have been the motivation for such a flight into enemy territory considering the proximity of the crash and the location of the 509th?

Not that I am buying the wing explanation yet, despite the astounding similarity with Arnolds description, and Arnolds impression is that what he saw was man made.

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