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Elric

Dragons

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Do you think their is a possibility that dragons existed long ago beside dinosaurs and In the midevil times?

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Not really. What i think explains them very well is that people at that time were discovering the skeletons of long dead dinosaurs and since they couldn't comprehend the concept of something living millions of years ago, they assumed they were recent remains of a still existing monster.

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Not really. What i think explains them very well is that people at that time were discovering the skeletons of long dead dinosaurs and since they couldn't comprehend the concept of something living millions of years ago, they assumed they were recent remains of a still existing monster.

Beat me to it.

Jerk.

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The thing of it is that every culture in the world, when they tried to come up with something spectacularly out-of-this-world, they went with a giant sized reptile. Reptiles are about as alien to mammals as we can get. Heck, we still do it in Hollywood. We have the option of believing that this was (and is) simply an aspect of the human psyche. Or we can wonder if some sort of reptilian species existed globally in different forms, shapes, and behaviours, including such incredibly diverse forms from no-legged to 2-legged to 6-legged, fire, poison-breathing, fire-breathing, ice-breathing, water-dwelling, cave-dwelling, sky-dwelling, feathered, scaly, flying, grounded, and yet, despite such phenomenal evolutionary diversity...disappeared world-wide without a trace.

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Beat me to it.

Jerk.

Well, be faster next time. :rolleyes:

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Aren't many Biblical figures actually Dragons, or something...? ;)

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Aren't many Biblical figures actually Dragons, or something...? ;)

not as far as I know? I thought the only "dragons" in the bible were the leviathan and the pole serpent

also I'm well in the they didn't exist camp

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Depends on what you understand by dragon. Actually the word "dragon" originally meant "serpent", and naturalists such as Pliny the Elder described them as giant snakes that would coil around large beasts and strangle them to death. Sounds familiar? They also said that dragons lived in India and Ethiopia, which fits the range of the Indian and African Rock Python.

In the VIII century, St. John of Damascus wrote that "dragons exist, but they are serpents born from another serpents, and when young they are small but then they grow up and mature, they become so big and fat that they exceed other serpents in lenght and size. It is said that they grow up to thirty cubits or more, and become as thick as a huge log". Once again, the description fits a python snake perfectly. Thirty cubits would be around 13-15 meters which is larger than pythons but understandable since these naturalists probably never got to measure a large python by themselves and you know snake sizes are often exagerated. Also, pythons probably got bigger at the time because they weren´t so heavily hunted as they are today.

Let's also consider that all the ancient stories about dragons (from Ancient greece, for example) described dragons as being giant snakes, and actually the word python comes from the name of a mythical Greek "dragon". So there's plenty of evidence that the original dragons in the Western world were actually python snakes. The dinosaur-like appearance of dragons is a relatively recent modification.

As for the Eastern dragons, we know that they were based on numerous fossil remains of diverse animals, not only dinosaurs but also mammals and sea reptiles. Gigantopithecus teeth were even recently considered by the Chinese to be "dragon's teeth" and powdered to make medicines.

So no, I don´t think dragons as we usually understand them existed for real. But then again if we look at the origins of the legend, then Eastern dragons DID exist (in prehistory and in the form of different animals), and Western dragons DO exist, as python snakes.

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This is a rather difficult topic to discuss due to the lack of evidence on both sides.

All i can say is, possibly.

All races across the world, many thousands of years ago, all reported some strange, flying reptilian creature.

From what ive heard, when the first accounts came into place there was no way these people could have contacted each other and simply made this beast up.

Id love it if they were real though...

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All races across the world, many thousands of years ago, all reported some strange, flying reptilian creature.

Only the original dragons were not flying creatures, but snake-like.

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Maybe it was something similar to a dragon? Some giant reptile?

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This is a rather difficult topic to discuss due to the lack of evidence on both sides.

All i can say is, possibly.

All races across the world, many thousands of years ago, all reported some strange, flying reptilian creature.

From what ive heard, when the first accounts came into place there was no way these people could have contacted each other and simply made this beast up.

Id love it if they were real though...

There could have been many reasons for this.... Better shipping, more stories go across seas, the spread and evolution of religion. When you look at these different places you see very different types of dragons. The Asian Dragon for instance is more like a snake, some can or cannot fly.... The European dragon, has legs, but no arm, just wings. So you could say that these people were hearing stories, and then embelshing on these storys. As for the source of the stories..... Im going to have to side with Bracket

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I'd also guess that dragons had their roots in large snakes, or possibly crocodiles.

I'd suggest Snakes, because many of the ancient stories include giant intellegent, supernatural snakes, such as Python in Greek myth, and Jörmungandr of Norse myth. These evolved into winged creatures and giant lizard creature, which evolved into the western four legged fire breathing dragon.

I'd suggest crocodiles, because many of the ancient dragons were ocean, river or lake monsters, and not creatures of the air, like the winged dragons.

I'm pretty sure that oriental (Chinese) dragons could fly. Many of them were actually deities in their own right. although they usually lived in rivers, lakes or the ocean, they could fly and bring storms and winds with them.

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I'm pretty sure that oriental (Chinese) dragons could fly. Many of them were actually deities in their own right. although they usually lived in rivers, lakes or the ocean, they could fly and bring storms and winds with them.

Yes, they could fly, but they used supernatural forces (magic) to do so, not wings.

It would be interesting to know when they started depicting dragons as winged creatures, since all the original stories were about snake-like creatures.

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I look at dragons like modern day aliens. People had/have too much time on their hands so they start creating imaginary scenarios that seem possible even if they are not based in reality.

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not as far as I know? I thought the only "dragons" in the bible were the leviathan and the pole serpent

also I'm well in the they didn't exist camp

Note the winky face.

You see, there's this fellow named the Draconic Chronicler that got banned a while ago...

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Note the winky face.

You see, there's this fellow named the Draconic Chronicler that got banned a while ago...

Banned, but not forgotten. Very interesting theory, if pushed a little to hard. Said he was coming out with a book on Dragons in Christianity in 2006, which no one has seen yet.

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If electric eels exist, then why the heck not dragons? They could function like an eel. As they fly, walk, run, and whatnot, they create static electricity, then they spark the electricity in their mouths and ignite their breath fueled by their gas glands. Thats my thought anyways.

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This is a rather difficult topic to discuss due to the lack of evidence on both sides.

All i can say is, possibly.

All races across the world, many thousands of years ago, all reported some strange, flying reptilian creature.

From what ive heard, when the first accounts came into place there was no way these people could have contacted each other and simply made this beast up.

Id love it if they were real though...

Both sides? No. Just one side.

"Possibly" wouldnt be the best choice of words here.

I dont believe every race for the last few thousand years has had strange, flying, reptilian creatures in their stories (unless you have info on that).

Its likely these were made up, or at least concocted after seeing large reptiles, dino bones, etc.

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If electric eels exist, then why the heck not dragons? They could function like an eel. As they fly, walk, run, and whatnot, they create static electricity, then they spark the electricity in their mouths and ignite their breath fueled by their gas glands. Thats my thought anyways.

Thats one heck of a stretch when comparing it to the electric eel.

Id settle for what "reign of fire" did in the movie: two chemicals that ignite when mixed together, so the dragon shoots both chemicals out at prey, the same way a cobra shoots venom, and it ignites.

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Thats one heck of a stretch when comparing it to the electric eel.

Id settle for what "reign of fire" did in the movie: two chemicals that ignite when mixed together, so the dragon shoots both chemicals out at prey, the same way a cobra shoots venom, and it ignites.

its a pretty poor defence mechanism in the fact that if you suffer damage to the "poison" glands your face explodes...

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its a pretty poor defence mechanism in the fact that if you suffer damage to the "poison" glands your face explodes...

I forget where exactly the made up gland was. However, i know it was separated by some distance from the other.

Who knows, maybe it has some "immunity" to it. The same way our stomaches developed for certain diets? I dunno.

Ugh. I cant believe im actually arguing for the existence of a dragon right now.

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dragonz are real? :mellow:

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Aren't many Biblical figures actually Dragons, or something...? ;)

You may be thinking of the Seraphim.

A seraph (pl. seraphim; Hebrew: שְׂרָפִים śərāfîm, singular שָׂרָף śārāf; Latin: seraphi[m], singular seraph[us]; Greek: σεραφείμ) is a type of celestial being in Judaism and Christianity. Literally "burning ones", the word is normally a synonym for serpents when used in the Hebrew Bible, but they are mentioned in the Book of Isaiah as fiery six-winged beings attending on God. They appear again as celestial beings in an influential Hellenistic work, the Book of Enoch, and a little later in the Book of Revelation. They occupy the fifth of ten ranks of the hierarchy of angels in medieval and modern Judaism, and the highest rank in the Christian angelic hierarchy.

Seraphim, literally "burning ones", is the plural of "seraph", more properly sarap. The word sarap/seraphim appears three times in the Torah (Numbers 21:6-8, Deuteronomy 8:15) and four times in the Book of Isaiah (6:2-6, 14:29, 30:6). In Numbers and Deuteronomy the "seraphim" are serpents – the association of serpents as "burning ones" is possibly due to the burning sensation of the poison.[1] Isaiah also uses the word in close association with words to describes snakes (nahash, the generic word for snakes, in 14:29, and efeh, viper, in 30:6).

Isaiah's vision of seraphim in the First Temple in Jerusalem is the sole instance in the Hebrew Bible of the word being used to describe celestial beings: there the winged "seraphim" attend God and have human attributes:[2] "... I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and His train filled the Hekhal (sanctuary). Above him stood the Seraphim; each had six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew." (Isaiah 6:1–3) In Isaiah's vision the seraphim cry continually to each other, "Holy, holy, holy, is YHWH of hosts: the whole earth is full of His glory" (verses 2-3) before carrying out an act of purification for the prophet (verses 6-7). It is possible that these are winged snake-beings, but given that the word "seraphim" is not attached as an adjective or modifier to other snake-words ("nahash," etc.), as is the case in every other occurrence of the word, it is more probable that they are variants of the "fiery" lesser deities making up God's divine court.[3]

"Seraphim" appear in the 2nd century B.C. Book of Enoch[4] where they are designated as drakones (δράκονες "serpents"), and are mentioned, in conjunction with the cherubim as the heavenly creatures standing nearest to the throne of God. In the late 1st century A.D. Book of Revelation (iv. 4-8) they are described as being forever in God's presence and praising Him constantly: "Day and night with out ceasing they sing: 'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come.'" They appear also in the Christian Gnostic text On the Origin of the World, described as "dragon-shaped angels".[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraph

So this tradition of winged, fiery, serpents was integrated into Christianity of the west and we get stories of St George defeating the dragon and various other myths and legends of the Medieval period. It is more complex than that but I bet the description of the Seraph and dragons became confused over time.

Angels are dragons perhaps. Messiah as saviour is comparable to Nachash or serpent so I do see there been a connection.

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You may be thinking of the Seraphim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraph

So this tradition of winged, fiery, serpents was integrated into Christianity of the west and we get stories of St George defeating the dragon and various other myths and legends of the Medieval period. It is more complex than that but I bet the description of the Seraph and dragons became confused over time.

Angels are dragons perhaps. Messiah as saviour is comparable to Nachash or serpent so I do see there been a connection.

I think Soul Kitchen was thinking of the dragon that was worshipped as a living god by the Babylonians and that was eventually slain by Daniel. The dragon is never said to be a flying creature, but it could perfectly be a giant snake (python) or a crocodile. Remember that dragon comes from old greek for serpent/snake.

There's also the symbolic dragon that represents the Devil in both Genesis and the Apocalypse- once again, If I well recall, these were said described as serpents, not giant winged creatures. (Although since I'm not Christian I haven´t read the Bible many times...)

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