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dekker87

USA mass murders?!

178 posts in this topic

post a link then!

it's no good to say something of the sort with no back up.

I already posted the link to Wiki for you to read the case of Nicaragua vs the U.S. in this thread.

you're not being honest in that your original position has not been as easy to prove as you thought and has in fact nearly been totally disproven.

you're not being honest by claiming the us committed mass murders for decades and then point to other countries actually commmitting the murders with US support...ie NOT the us comitting mass killings...and you refuse to accept that point.

Well, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Korea seem to support my claim...

And not just with U.S. support but with U.S. support, ENCOURAGEMENT, training, funding, arming, and often diplomatic support. In other words, doing the killing FOR the U.S.

people get killed in wartime...and the fog of war makes it difficult to corroborate such things...but if by vietnam your referring to my lai then let me refer you to the court martials and the prison sentences that followed for the US servicement involved...let me also point you to the actions of the many US troops at My Lai who prevented even more war crimes by their fellow troops.

It isn't as simple as "the fog of war", as the general's sentiments I posted above clearly show. When you bomb entire towns, villages and cities knowing you will kill civilians (and indeed often with the intention of doing so, as my quotes from Kissinger also show), then it is murder. Like I stated before, if you point a gun into a crowd of people, turn your head and close your eyes and let rip, it is murder. Claiming innocence doesn't work.

but you admit there are differences!

so if the twin towers attacks are mass murder how do you refer to the (rhetorical) us attack that kills 4000 by accident?

Of course there are differences, but I'll refer you to the analogy I supplied above. When YOU KNOW civilians will die, even though it MAY BE a legitimate target, then it is essentially the same as the 9/11 attack you describe. And, as I stated in my previous reply to you, going by your own logic, the attack on The World Trade would be legitimate - the casualties were nothing more than by products.

the WTC was not the centre of US finance...that would be Wall St.

The point still remains. It was a massively important financial institution. If a place such as that existed in Iraq before it was bombed the hell out of, it would have been considered a "legitimate military target".

and if they are not being attacked directly but die as a consequence of actions aimed at legitimate targets??

I don't know how to make it any clearer. I have already referenced the relevant law on the matter. If there is any doubt as to whether or not civilians will die, it is a war crime. If you know that innocents will die as a result, it is still murder.

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MOTIVE is the key.

If you're tryin to hit military targets and civilians get killed that's colllateral damage.

if you're tryin to kill civilians and achieve that then that's mass murder.

Interesting views. As far as i know, mass murder comes down to "an act of murdering four or more people over a relatively short time period".

Collateral damage is just a euphemism for mass murder.

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Posted (edited)

Francis Boyle

Francis Anthony Boyle (born 1950) is a professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law.[1] Boyle received a J.D. degree magna cum laude and A.M. and Ph.D. degrees in political science from Harvard University. He also practiced tax and international tax with Bingham, Dana & Gould.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Boyle

On U.S. attacks on Iraq carried out during the Gulf War said:

The bombing continued for 42 days. It met no resistance from Iraqi aircraft and no effective anti-aircraft or anti-missile ground fire. Iraq was basically defenceless. Most of the targets were

civilian facilities. The United States intentionally bombed and destroyed centres for civilian life, commercial and business districts, schools, hospitals, mosques, churches, shelters, residential

areas, historical sites, private vehicles and civilian government offices. In aerial attacks, including strafing, over cities, towns, the countryside and highways, United States aircraft bombed and strafed indiscriminately. The purpose of these attacks was to destroy life and property, and generally to terrorise the civilian population of Iraq. The net effect was the summary execution and corporal punishment indiscriminately of men, women and children, young and old, rich and poor, of all nationalities and religions. The intention and effort of this bombing campaign against civilian life and facilities was to systematically destroy Iraq’s infrastructure leaving it in a pre-industrial

condition. The United States intentionally bombed and destroyed defenceless iraqi military personnel; used excessive force; killed soldiers seeking to surrender and in disorganised individual flight, often unarmed and far from any combat zones; randomly and wantonly killed iraqi soldiers; and destroyed material after the ceasefire. The United States used prohibited weapons capable of mass

destruction and inflicting indiscriminate death and unnecessary suffering against both military and civilian targets. Fuel air explosives were used against troops in place, civilian areas, oil fields and fleeing civilians and soldiers on two stretches of highway between Kuwait and Iraq.

Francis Boyle, “Flashback: US War Crimes During

the Gulf War,” 2 September 2002,

http://counterpunch.org/boyle0902.html

Then there is the over 1 million estimated dead through the U.S. led sanctions of the country that saw many of its civilians starve. While this was not a military attack, it was the policy of the U.S. that led directly to the deaths. And effect that the U.S. had to be aware of, and something that has also went on in North Korea for the past two decades.

Denis Halliday and Hans von Sponeck (both former UN humanitarian

coordinators for Iraq who resigned) in November 2001 wrote: “The uncomfortable truth is that the West is holding the Iraqi people hostage.

Hans Von Sponeck and Denis Halliday, “The Hostage Nation,” 29 November 2001, http://zmag.org/halsponiraq.htm

And of course the "Shock and Awe" campaign of the Iraq war. A campaign that saw the relentless bombing of an already decimated country. Not only had the country not recovered from the war in '91, but the U.S. had continued bombing campigns throughout, up to one month before the Iraq invasion was sanctioned in Congress. The 'military targets' of the most recent bombing campaign, simply did not exist. Iraq was already long defeated.

Edited by expandmymind

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None of those fall within the definition set out by dekker, so none of it is really relevant to the discussion. Plus, many of those were obviously biased sites who have no interest in being objective.

War crimes happen, it happens in every single war that has ever been waged practically. You cannot control the individual actions of troops on the field. Why should a whole country be blamed for the actions of a few of it's soldiers?

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None of those fall within the definition set out by dekker, so none of it is really relevant to the discussion. Plus, many of those were obviously biased sites who have no interest in being objective.

War crimes happen, it happens in every single war that has ever been waged practically. You cannot control the individual actions of troops on the field. Why should a whole country be blamed for the actions of a few of it's soldiers?

Civilians die in wars especially if the enemy forces mix into the population. War crimes are the targeting of civilians for no other purpose but to kill civilians.

As I said earlier there is a grey area. For instance what do you do if a hospital contains biological agents and the means to produce germ warfare? Do you bomb the hospital and kill 200 people or risk thousands of lives by not acting?

What do you do if the enemy builds its top secret communications bunker below a school?

What do you do if the enemy uses human shields?

Many enemies are clever when placing their assets.

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To say all the links that have been posted are biased is silly and in all honesty it doesn't matter how or why civilians ended up getting killed.They got killed and it's wrong.

And to simply say things like it doesn't count because of such a such is silly.

I just simply googled to see if I could find anything.

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To say all the links that have been posted are biased is silly and in all honesty it doesn't matter how or why civilians ended up getting killed.They got killed and it's wrong.

And to simply say things like it doesn't count because of such a such is silly.

I just simply googled to see if I could find anything.

I looked through each one of those links; I didn't see one that was referencing the specific issue, which is "mass murder carried out by the U.S.A", that we are talking about. When someone says that a mass murder(s) is carried out by the United States, then it is usually in reference to an official/unofficial (I cede that it is a possibility, but I have not seen much real proof) policy to commit these killings of civilians. The incidents that you linked to were either a.) isolated incidents of soldiers murdering civilians on purpose. b.) cover ups of these incidents (which is wrong, I admit) c.) what I considered was a rambling diatribe written by an iraq war veteran, who sees himself and all other soldiers as murderers. or d.) They were from conspiracy websites that provided little legitimate sources as to where they got their information from. Like when I asked expandmymind to see the sources regarding the claim that 9/10 of the people killed from predator drone strikes (and other precision targeting systems) were civilians. He gave me a source, I read the source he linked to, then I couldn't find one reference in that entire article as to where the statistics about precision strikes came from. I would like to know specifically where this number came from, not something as vague as "critics".

Of course, it is horrible that war even goes on, even more heinous when non-combatants get killed or injured. I am not arguing about that, but this is about one specific issue. As I outlined above, none of the links you provided me were either relevant or properly cited their sources.

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I looked through each one of those links; I didn't see one that was referencing the specific issue, which is "mass murder carried out by the U.S.A", that we are talking about. When someone says that a mass murder(s) is carried out by the United States, then it is usually in reference to an official/unofficial (I cede that it is a possibility, but I have not seen much real proof) policy to commit these killings of civilians. The incidents that you linked to were either a.) isolated incidents of soldiers murdering civilians on purpose. b.) cover ups of these incidents (which is wrong, I admit) c.) what I considered was a rambling diatribe written by an iraq war veteran, who sees himself and all other soldiers as murderers. or d.) They were from conspiracy websites that provided little legitimate sources as to where they got their information from. Like when I asked expandmymind to see the sources regarding the claim that 9/10 of the people killed from predator drone strikes (and other precision targeting systems) were civilians. He gave me a source, I read the source he linked to, then I couldn't find one reference in that entire article as to where the statistics about precision strikes came from. I would like to know specifically where this number came from, not something as vague as "critics".

Of course, it is horrible that war even goes on, even more heinous when non-combatants get killed or injured. I am not arguing about that, but this is about one specific issue. As I outlined above, none of the links you provided me were either relevant or properly cited their sources.

OK Then.Fair Enough

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I was at the battle of Fallujah. We did not target civilians.

Deleted uranium does not cause mass deaths unless an individual is hit by one.

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I am sick of hearing ant-America bull. Enough with these lies and half-truth fabricated conspiracies that is created by governments or straight up leftests who want the glory of taking down Big Ol'America.

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I was at the battle of Fallujah. We did not target civilians.

Deleted uranium does not cause mass deaths unless an individual is hit by one.

Fair Enough.

Thanks.

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Depleted uranium does not cause mass deaths unless an individual is hit by one.

Sorry but this statement is ridicilous and tragicomic. Just look at post-1999 cancer rates in my country and around

Uranium 'killing Italian troops'

Italian soldiers are still dying following exposure to depleted uranium in the wars in Bosnia and Kosovo, their relatives say.

Troops who served during the wars in the 1990s believe they have contracted cancer and other serious illnesses from extended exposure to the munitions.

The US says it fired around 40,000 depleted uranium rounds during the Bosnian and Kosovo conflicts.

A pressure group says 50 veterans have died and another 200 are seriously ill.

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NATO is using it now in Lybia too. Uranium is very expensive to maintain, thats why they are dumping it. And its better to dump in in Lybia or Serbia then in NATO countries

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Excerpt from the totally unique work "Toward the Light". (A message to mankind from the transcendental world.) 1920.

".......

- In one area that is equally important to the upbringing of children - namely the area of legislation -

human beings can themselves assist in improving conditions on Earth through the enactment of laws that have

been carefully considered, laws that do not restrain the initiative of the free will or compel the individual

to act against the best and the noblest in every human mind. For laws of coercion of any kind that are issued

by the leaders and the rulers of the different countries serve only to promote the power of Darkness and to

obstruct the progress of the Light. There must of course be laws to regulate the domestic and foreign affairs

of countries and the postures of nations toward each other, but if it happens that these laws compel people to

act contrary to their inner conviction, against their conscience, or if the natural development of the free will

is impeded, then these laws will have only a destructive effect, and the rulers will have abused their power.

Among such laws of coercion must be counted, for example, compulsory military service.

So long as military service is only "peaceful", the many open air exercises and the discipline can in many ways

have a beneficial effect on body and spirit, provided that the officers and superiors act humanely and do not

abuse their authority in a degrading and improper fashion. But as soon as the game of war turns to deadly earnest

and the soldiers are confronted with stark reality, facing living masses that will become fodder for their cannons,

sabres, bayonets and other weapons, when they know that they will become the cause of the maiming or death of many

people, then most of them must do violence to their conscience in order to act in the manner demanded by the

leadership of their country. The best and the noblest in the souls of such human beings is often destroyed, since

in order to deaden the rising abhorrence for the deed they are about to commit they let themselves be gripped by

the din and the fury of battle and act blindly in order to avoid thinking of the horror that is before them. These

human beings should never be compelled to commit such deeds, since very often it is they who in the battle's

confusing and degrading turmoil commit the worst and entirely unnecessary atrocities.

But as long as the law governing compulsory military service exists, it is to no avail that single individuals or

several in concert refuse to comply with the duty that is demanded by a country's government, since this kind of

insubordination only brings harm to the disobedient and in no way upsets the existing order. In such cases there is

but one thing to do: to submit to the duties that are imposed by society, even though performance of such duties

clashes with one's innermost feelings. By acting in this way the individual stands with a clear conscience, while

the responsibility for these compulsory actions will fall upon those who originate and enforce such laws.

These coercive laws should therefore be repealed by the leaders, the legislators and the rulers; when they realize

that such coercion cannot be in harmony with God's desires and purposes, the time will have come for the existing

laws to be repealed and replaced by new laws.

In order to provide a transition from present conditions to the time when a general and universal peace among all

nations is an accomplished fact, all military service should be a voluntary matter, with no compulsion whatsoever

of the individual, since responsibility for the many untimely deaths, the many murders and atrocities and the

destruction is placed by God upon the leaders, the legislators and the rulers, even though the individual soldier

- the aggressor as well as the defender - must give account of all the unnecessary cruelties of which he is

personally guilty. On the other hand, if military service is placed on a voluntary basis until further notice,

then the chief responsibility will be evenly divided among all the participants in war, the leaders as well as the

soldiers in the field.

All warfare is against God's Will and is in conflict with the laws of the Light, and it benefits neither one

nor the other warring nation to call upon God's assistance as supreme war lord; any supplication to God to bless the

armaments or to bless the armies, so that under His leadership they may gain victory over their opponents, is

therefore a blasphemous prayer.

Any conception of God as war lord or war leader must be rooted out, since all bloodshed, all destruction, all

subversion is completely irreconcilable with the nature of God. Again and again God has sought to lead human beings

to a complete understanding of love for their neighbours and respect for all that belongs to them. Time and again

ever since the dawn of history God's emissaries have proclaimed to human beings: "You shall not kill, nor take by

force, nor rob, nor plunder!" But so far the appeal has been in vain, human beings have not yet been able to free

themselves from the primal urge of brutish self-assertion through violence to the detriment of their fellow human

beings. So long as the individual members of the nations of the world do not unite and strive toward mutual peace

and forbearance, so long as human beings cannot with complete faith in God's Fatherliness and Justice place

everything in His hand and with trust submit to His leadership, so long as the will of the many is not one with

His Will, so long can bloodshed, violence and war not cease, and so long can the hope for peace not be victorious

on Earth.

Human beings must overcome the influence of Darkness, overcome hatred, curses, envy and lust for power through

belief in God's existence and by trusting His guidance, rather than through prayers for help to crush their enemies

and opponents by acts of violence for God never hears and never answers such prayers.

If it could be conceived that an entire people were united in complete trust in God and in the absolute certitude

that no evil arising from ambitious, envious or rapacious neighbours could befall them, then even the most evil of

designs would fall to the ground, since it would be lost on so unanimous and complete a faith. But where can such

a people be found? Humanity is still in its infancy, and centuries or millennia may pass before full understanding

of such an unshakeable relationship of trust between God and human beings can be attained.

Thus, all warfare is rooted in Darkness and is brought about by the mutual intolerance of the various nations,

which in turn can be attributed to the lust for power of the leaders and the rulers. If the human will for evil

thus calls forth fighting and destruction and a war begins, the nation that initiates the hostilities must bear

the responsibility for the war of aggression as well as for the war of defence forced upon the other nation and

its allies, regardless of the forms that the war may take. And so long as the attacked nation limits itself to

the defence of its country, of its rights, the aggressor will continue to be in the wrong. But the moment the

defender extends the hostilities to the territory of the aggressor in order to attack rather than to defend,

both sides must share the responsibility for whatever takes place from the moment the border into enemy territory

is crossed. (The same laws apply if the battles are fought at sea or in the air).

The victory or defeat of the warring parties can in no way be attributed to God. Never does He take part in the

hostilities, neither on the side of the aggressor nor on the side of the defender. Only prayers for help to restore

peace will be heard by God, but His many and persistent attempts to speak to the leaders as their "conscience" are

in most cases rejected.

The victorious party defeats its adversary by virtue of numerical or strategic superiority or the like, or because

of the people's common hatred of the enemy and the people's common will to win; but victory is never gained with

the help of God.

Any person - civilian or military - who praises, defends and glorifies war in writing or in speech, instead of

evoking aversion to this deed of Darkness and enlightening his fellow human beings on the degradation and

brutishness of war, is himself placing a heavy burden of responsibility on his shoulders and must, having ended his

earthly life, render a detailed account to God of the motivations for his actions.

Even though human beings wage war among themselves, and even though God does not hear their prayers for victory, He

never loses sight of them, but seeks either directly or through the disincarnated Youngest to awaken remorse among

the leaders, just as He tries in many ways to instil in them an awareness of the injustice and the abuse of power

of which they are guilty, so as to bring about a pact of peace before one of the parties succumbs to the superior

force; but in the vast majority of cases also these attempts are rejected by human beings.

Many of the disincarnated Youngest gather where the fiercest battles rage in order to minimize by their presence

the effect of the erupting Darkness and to divert those accumulations of Darkness that are inevitably drawn to the

scenes of battle by the passions that are unleashed, and also to bring the thousands of spirits that were bound to

the slain human bodies back to their dwellings in the spheres.

The Youngest will also try, for as long as a state of war obtains, to evoke feelings of compassion and to bring

about acts of mercy among those directly or indirectly involved in the war, so as to counteract the influence of

Darkness.

The love of human beings for their country is under normal circumstances an excellent and exalted sentiment, but it

is ugly and degrading when, aroused by the passions of war, it turns into egoism and self-worship. For regarding

this self-overestimation and complacency, human beings must never forget that those men and women who from the

earliest times and in the various nations have risen high above the average human being, and who in the service of

the Light have exerted a lasting cultural influence on the peoples of their countries in the religious, ethical,

scientific, social and political areas, have all been the incarnated Youngest, who under the leadership of God have

let themselves be born at those places where at that time there were the best prospects for introducing innovations

and improvements. And as even the most advanced human spirits have not yet developed the ability to enrich their

fellow human beings either spiritually or materially, nor yet succeeded in raising themselves above the purely human

level in spiritual respects, humanity has no grounds whatsoever for self-overestimation or self-admiration, but

reason only to thank God for the abundance of the gifts that He has given them through His emissaries.

So that no government by the few, nor by a single head of state,

should in the future be tempted through error of judgment or hasty decision to involve their own and thereby one or

more other nations in ruinous and totally destructive war, all states should agree upon a common governing body,

consisting of delegates from all the countries and all the factions, to act not as a peace conference meeting from

time to time but as a permanent authority whose members are elected for a longer period of office, and to whose

hands all the disputes and entanglements of nations will be entrusted for joint resolution; for all disputes of any

kind whatsover can and should be settled by peaceful, diplomatic means. For in no respect whatsoever can humanity

defend before God its presumed right to settle its disagreements by arms and by force.

If all the nations, all the peoples of the East and of the West, would voluntarily meet in a joint endeavour to

achieve a lasting peace, they would be assured of receiving all possible help from the transcendental world under

the supreme leadership of God. However, it will be of no avail to establish a general world authority until the will

exists in full sincerity and accord to fulfil the hope of "the eternal peace". But once such co-operation has been

agreed upon and initiated it should never be breached, since the nation that deceitfully fails to honour its pledge

thereby takes an unbounded responsibility upon itself; because every vow that is broken draws Darkness to those who

deliberately commit deceitful acts, and the gathered Darkness will draw the Elder's recorded future-images forth into

reality upon the plane of the Earth and thus for long periods of time hinder the toilsome journeying of mankind.

These proposals for a general world authority or international court of law have in various ways been put forward by

human beings in the past, but have not hitherto awakened the proper response and understanding. But with the permission

of our God and Father this proposal is hereby advanced from the transcendental world - from the spiritual leaders of

mankind - in the hope that those who are well placed to advocate and implement some treaty of this nature will heed

these words in times to come.

And when the time comes that all human beings in full understanding should agree to enact an inviolable pact of peace,

all manufacture of all kinds of armaments and weapons of war should cease, and never more be resumed.

Through an unbreachable treaty of peace between all the peoples and the nations they will lay a firm foundation for an

effective and a fruitful joint endeavour between the children of the Light and the children of the Earth, an endeavour

that will in many ways be a great help to the Youngest in their work for humanity, and benefit especially those of the

Youngest who are incarnated as human beings.

......."

(Bolding by the poster)!

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Posted (edited)

Bump

Edited by Djeminy

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Well what did US wanted in Vietnam??? This is the most bothering war for me... Which your own gov. admitted that it was mistake LOL!!! How can you just say it was mistake! We just wiped out 3 million vietnamese but we dont know the purpose...Ow we know now that is over, were sorry for killing so many men,probably women too...

And now i read an article about Libya " A marine squad was "trapped" between houses so they ordered an airstrike which killed 2 families, with a headcount of 12..." That way probably good for US, on the others side from non-american people, imagine what would they think...And let us not forget what is US doing there in the first place...They asked nato for help, yes, US is in too, but why not let the France deal with it...They are thought enough for the job....Noooo US must be like in every war so far... So in Oil Rich lands of Libya we have US and France fighting for half of year almost, against very low tech enemy...In Syria, not so oil reach land, where they actualy have evil president which is killing hes own people, there is no word about any help or salvation...

And Libya fact; US could just send in an operative which would easily remove Gadafi and war would be over...Now why are they not doing that :huh: They are rather killing civilans and using lots and lots of rockets,bombs. Same goes for NATO they are nothing but foreign land invaders in big time political game... US is making up wars... for their own good...

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Djeminy, too much bs, and even thou i read some, still isnt with touch of reality...Wake up world is not ideal and i wont be as long as were fueling our goverments warmachines and no god or anyone will help...

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Djeminy, too much bs, and even thou i read some, still isnt with touch of reality...Wake up world is not ideal and i wont be as long as were fueling our goverments warmachines and no god or anyone will help...

'Nuke em', i would have been more impressed had you read it all, before calling it bs!

No human being knows what "reality" is, but many have through the many millenia certainly

been given glimpses and directions about its true nature.

Nothing transient, or 'things' subjected to death and decay, can ever be called 'reality'.

Only the everlasting, only that of permanence, of infinite nature can ever be called true

reality.

Please tell me what you disagree with in my post and why. And it would of course please me

no end if you also could come up with something that in your mind would be so much better!

Cheers

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Well what did US wanted in Vietnam??? This is the most bothering war for me... Which your own gov. admitted that it was mistake LOL!!! How can you just say it was mistake! We just wiped out 3 million vietnamese but we dont know the purpose...Ow we know now that is over, were sorry for killing so many men,probably women too...

And now i read an article about Libya " A marine squad was "trapped" between houses so they ordered an airstrike which killed 2 families, with a headcount of 12..." That way probably good for US, on the others side from non-american people, imagine what would they think...And let us not forget what is US doing there in the first place...They asked nato for help, yes, US is in too, but why not let the France deal with it...They are thought enough for the job....Noooo US must be like in every war so far... So in Oil Rich lands of Libya we have US and France fighting for half of year almost, against very low tech enemy...In Syria, not so oil reach land, where they actualy have evil president which is killing hes own people, there is no word about any help or salvation...

And Libya fact; US could just send in an operative which would easily remove Gadafi and war would be over...Now why are they not doing that :huh: They are rather killing civilans and using lots and lots of rockets,bombs. Same goes for NATO they are nothing but foreign land invaders in big time political game... US is making up wars... for their own good...

Source please?

Yes, the CIA is an organization that can just magically place an operative anywhere at any time. How would you know how feasible it would be for the CIA to insert an assassin into Libya to get close enough to kill Gadaffi?

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biggest mistake we ever made was rescuing europe in ww2 when they could'nt defend themselves!all of europe wants us as their friend and protector cause most of the time they have not got the balls to defend themselves!

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the whackos inside waco fired (and killed) first. it's a little rich to complain when they get some back though i do believe the feds went well over the top here.

wartime - but please provide me with a link regarding the use of biological weapons..from a reputable source obviously.

but not mass murder.

no it really doesn't. the arms sold to both egypt and israel has KEPT the peace not caused trouble.

i agree. but this was not mass murder.

for what?? please expand on that...

no i'm not narrowly defining the terms...i just want examples of when the us has deliberately targetted civilians for the express purpose of killing them.

no it isn't...that's disgusting.

Wow didn't realize that you were actually there on the day. Must have been terrifying for you. As only those who were there on the day actually know who fired first considering the Government went charging in guns drawn "Ready to shoot" and confronted an unarmed David Koresh at the front door.

Amazing that film crews were there recording the whole thing however mysteriously the opening minutes of the scuttle between the Davidians and the Government have somehow been lost.

Please tell us your amazing story of survival from there please as we would all like to know how you know who shot first.... unless your just another government drone where they say the sky is green and you say "Yes the sky is green"

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the whackos inside waco fired (and killed) first. it's a little rich to complain when they get some back though i do believe the feds went well over the top here.

wartime - but please provide me with a link regarding the use of biological weapons..from a reputable source obviously.

but not mass murder.

no it really doesn't. the arms sold to both egypt and israel has KEPT the peace not caused trouble.

i agree. but this was not mass murder.

for what?? please expand on that...

no i'm not narrowly defining the terms...i just want examples of when the us has deliberately targetted civilians for the express purpose of killing them.

no it isn't...that's disgusting.

I think we have a disagreement about the effect of using arms for political and economic gain. Escalating the destructiveness of war, is not the way to peace. I think it is short sighted to believe the mid east countries that have only one resource, oil, will passively return to poverty when their supply of oil is exhausted. I believe it was bad judgment to invade Iraq, a country that was not mobilized for war with the USA and was not the aggressor in this military conflict. I think such actions and the relationship with Israel, justify Iran developing a nuclear weapons. Personally, I think Bush and Cheney should be on trail for war crimes, because they intended this invasion long before 9/11 and were just waiting for an excuse to act on the New Century American Project, which was the military domination of the mid east, and they manipulated information to proceed with their power hungry intentions. It would be nice if someone convinced me I am wrong, because like the Germans, I do not want to believe my government could do such a wrong, and that our reality is in fact the manifestation of the Military Industrial Complex of which Eisenhower warned us.

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