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Paxus

G.Cooper encountered man-made flying saucers

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So Friedman's criticisms are probably more to do with the co-author of the book? That would make sense.

Instead of derailing the topic, maybe email and ask him yourself. Or do you prefer to guess your answers?

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I think I already did that a few pages back here, just from that interview with Mitchell I posted.

Right, here's what you posted:

"My experiment involved four transmission sessions during rest periods programmed into the flight. The well-known experiment in the laboratory was to use cards with the five Zener symbols, but the actual cards aren't important. It was easier for me to use random number tables than carry the physical cards. Instead, all I did was to generate four tables of 25 random numbers just using the numbers 1 to 5. Then I randomly assigned a Zener symbol to each number.

For each transmission, I would then check the particular table of random numbers and think about the corresponding symbol for 15 seconds. Each transmission took about 6 minutes. I did this when I was ready to go to sleep at night. We had sleeping bag hammocks that we would put underneath the couches. Two of us would go to sleep in a hammock while the other one would be on watch. I would do the experiment before going into my sleeping bag.""My experiment involved four transmission sessions during rest periods programmed into the flight. The well-known experiment in the laboratory was to use cards with the five Zener symbols, but the actual cards aren't important. It was easier for me to use random number tables than carry the physical cards. Instead, all I did was to generate four tables of 25 random numbers just using the numbers 1 to 5. Then I randomly assigned a Zener symbol to each number.

For each transmission, I would then check the particular table of random numbers and think about the corresponding symbol for 15 seconds. Each transmission took about 6 minutes. I did this when I was ready to go to sleep at night. We had sleeping bag hammocks that we would put underneath the couches. Two of us would go to sleep in a hammock while the other one would be on watch. I would do the experiment before going into my sleeping bag."

Now, my question was -- what happens next?

I think that the general public, who hears Mitchell's verbal summary on TV shows, thinks that this happens:

1. Several independent receivers back on Earth, 'listen' during the 15 second intervals in which Mitchell is doing the 'sending' of each card image, and write down their impressions of what card is being sent.

2. The written records are sent to an independent scorer who compares the 'received' sequences to the corresponding simultaneous 'sending' sequence.

3. The successful 'hits' are judged, counted, and scored.

4. Statistical analysis is used to determine the degree of chance likelihood of achieving the scores

But what the paper actually showed -- which is probably why Mitchell has NEVER released it on the Internet -- is that NONE of these things happened. There was no protocol, no scoring criteria -- Mitchell himself processed the data alone, and used several DIFFERENT scoring processes until he finally came up with one that looked significant.

While giving credit to Mitchell's initiative and creativity in conducting the experiment, any fair analyst must reject his scoring claims as totally bogus. Which does not speak well for his judgment regarding other people's claims of paranormal-type claims.

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I have no way of knowing that, but neither do you.

I argue that basic physics & optics make the claim IMPOSSIBLE.

Can you provide ANY photographic expert who would argue that such a sharp photo COULD be made as described?

A single real expert?

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I know what I saw, Boon. I know more than I've told on here, and it's enough. I really have no need to argue with anyone about it.

Things are very different from the way you see them, but do I really have to say any more about this at all? No, I don't think so.

Am I trying to convince you of anything? No, of course not, and there is really no need for me to do so. I know what I know and it's enough.

The post you were quoting had nothing whatsoever to do with your own sighting or the information you claim was shared with you in that completely unclassified presentation. You already know this, so the fact that you are attempting to divert away from the actual subject matter of that post with a sob story of "poor me" is blatantly evident. No more games McG.

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But what the paper actually showed -- which is probably why Mitchell has NEVER released it on the Internet -- is that NONE of these things happened. There was no protocol, no scoring criteria -- Mitchell himself processed the data alone, and used several DIFFERENT scoring processes until he finally came up with one that looked significant.

While giving credit to Mitchell's initiative and creativity in conducting the experiment, any fair analyst must reject his scoring claims as totally bogus. Which does not speak well for his judgment regarding other people's claims of paranormal-type claims.

I can't say anything more about it, since I never read the report and had no interest in the subject to begin with. Who wants to be psychic? Not me. I already know more about the world than I want to know without having ESP.

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The post you were quoting had nothing whatsoever to do with your own sighting or the information you claim was shared with you in that completely unclassified presentation. You already know this, so the fact that you are attempting to divert away from the actual subject matter of that post with a sob story of "poor me" is blatantly evident. No more games McG.

Games? This isn't a game to me, Boon. It never was a game, I promise you.

You don't know what happened. You just don't KNOW.

Edited by TheMacGuffin

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I argue that basic physics & optics make the claim IMPOSSIBLE.

Can you provide ANY photographic expert who would argue that such a sharp photo COULD be made as described?

A single real expert?

I don't know anything more about it than what I've said. I have never seen the pictures and don't want to see them. I won't even try to find out any more about it.

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Games? This isn't a game to me, Boon. It never was a game, I promise you.

You don't know what happened. You just don't KNOW.

At this point I don't even know what you are talking about, let alone know whatever thing you're saying I don't know.

I was assuming that you were talking about your sighting or the information that you have said was shared in that presentation all those years ago. Is this what you are talking about or is it something else?

Because quite obviously that isn't at all what I was talking about in the post you quoted. If this isn't a calculated game on your part, then it's a confused jumble of who knows what. I'm going to drop the question for tonight and hope that in the days to come it all works itself out with a renewed focus on the actual subjects within the thread and forum overall.

And if you'd like to expand upon this thing you say I don't know about, please feel free. I'm sure that there are many who would like to hear what you have to say, myself included.

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At this point I don't even know what you are talking about, let alone know whatever thing you're saying I don't know.

I was assuming that you were talking about your sighting or the information that you have said was shared in that presentation all those years ago. Is this what you are talking about or is it something else?

Because quite obviously that isn't at all what I was talking about in the post you quoted. If this isn't a calculated game on your part, then it's a confused jumble of who knows what.

Jumbled. Confused. That's an understatement. LOL

Boon, even if I could give you a scorecard you'd never be able to sort out all the players.

The "curse" that your friend Phil Klass uttered at the end of his career was more correct than you will ever know, and probably more correct than he knew.

Edited by TheMacGuffin

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Jumbled. Confused. That's an understatement. LOL

Alright, I guess we can agree about that at this point.

Cheers McG, hope you have a good night.

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Alright, I guess we can agree about that at this point.

Cheers McG, hope you have a good night.

I'll have a night anyway.

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A long time ago, my grandfather quoted the pacifist A.J. Muste to me, which might seem like a strange thing to do for an Army officer who had been through World War II and the occupation of Germany.

Muste said "The problem after a war is with the victor. He thinks he has just proved that war and violence pay. Who will now teach him a lesson?”

If you want to understand something about all this, then that is the beginning of real wisdom. It begins by going back to the beginning, and the dangers of many years of covert and overt warfare against totalitarian police states of various stripes, how you become more and more like them over time, almost imperceptibly, start thinking like they do.

Go back to the beginnings, not this or that UFO video. That doesn't matter much in the big picture.

"Who will now teach him a lesson?" And what if he doesn't want to learn his lesson?

Edited by TheMacGuffin
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I know another Barry Goldwater story which has always stuck with me. There was a young guy who had been on his staff in the Senate back in the 1960s and had worked on his 1964 campaign, the one where he got demolished by LBJ.

During the Vietnam War, though, this guy changed radically into a peacenik and hippie with his hair down to there, and one day he and a group of protesters chained themselves to the Capitol building to denounce the war. (This wasn't me, by the way, far from it!)

At any rate, all the Senators and Representatives walked by them, either ignoring the kids or just basically saying "F. you". That's what it was like at the time. Only one Senator stopped to talk with this young man, and that was his former boss, the conservative, hawkish Barry Goldwater. Of all people! He was the only one who'd even listen to them.

So he stopped to talk with this kid who had once worked for him, and in a very friendly way, saying "Well, you've been through some changes."

That's the kind of person Goldwater really was.

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As for the Gemini 5 meteorites, all I can find about them is that Cooper said one made a dent of .25 inches in the hull. I can't find anything from Pete Conrad on this subject at all, one way or the other.

http://www.google.co...qVMp9LQRMZj3VTQ

Of course you can't, and won't, because

Investigate possible micrometeorite

impact reported by crew (determined

to be "oil-canning" of structure).

(emphasis mine, Gemini Program Mission Report. Gemini V; page 456)

Always good to check info before posting.

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A long time ago, my grandfather quoted the pacifist A.J. Muste to me, which might seem like a strange thing to do for an Army officer who had been through World War II and the occupation of Germany.

Muste said "The problem after a war is with the victor. He thinks he has just proved that war and violence pay. Who will now teach him a lesson?”

If you want to understand something about all this, then that is the beginning of real wisdom. It begins by going back to the beginning, and the dangers of many years of covert and overt warfare against totalitarian police states of various stripes, how you become more and more like them over time, almost imperceptibly, start thinking like they do.

Go back to the beginnings, not this or that UFO video. That doesn't matter much in the big picture.

"Who will now teach him a lesson?" And what if he doesn't want to learn his lesson?

best sentence over the last 36 pages IMO

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As for the Gemini 5 meteorites, all I can find about them is that Cooper said one made a dent of .25 inches in the hull. I can't find anything from Pete Conrad on this subject at all, one way or the other.

http://www.google.co...qVMp9LQRMZj3VTQ

I have been looking into meteoroid and orbital debris strikes on spacecraft and came up with the following NASA page which provides examples of strikes. The list is not exhaustive but seems to indicate the phenomenon is not rare.

http://ares.jsc.nasa...vit/impacts.cfm

...and some good technical information specific to Gemini 5:

http://nssdc.gsfc.na...do?id=1965-068A

Edited by synchronomy
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Yes, I'd better do so -- I looked for the book and will find it, and get the exact words and page citation.

Thanks Jim, I look forward to it.

As for further research into the question of micrometeorite impacts, I took some time to review portions of the mission report this morning. I found it from the Gemini 5 wiki, external links. Here is the report itself, about 17 MB in size, 473 pages.

The Postflight Inspection is detailed in section 12.6 which can be found from PDF page 446 to 457. There is no reference there about holes or even dents as far as I can tell, but there is a mention of looking for them.

Starting on PDF page 452 is section 12.6.2 Continuing Evaluation, which is a list of spacecraft test requests that were approved to evaluate anomalies and problems. We do have a reference on page 456 which reads:

5066

Structure

Investigate possible micrometeorite impact reported by crew (
determined to be "oil-canning" of structure
).

So yes, Cooper did report hearing what he believed may have been micrometeorite impacts, but based on the fact that there was no denting or holes found in the re-entry vehicle during the post flight inspection, they concluded that it was likely just the 'popping sound' typical of deformed metal sheets as they buckle back and forth from opposing (edit) or fluctuating (/edit) pressures. (Oil-canning defined, for any unfamiliar with the term.)

Cheers.

Edit to add:

If I'm not mistaken, there were some pressure fluctuations reported within the cabin which resulted in the need to power down a few times. I wonder if this may have contributed to or directly caused the oil-canning.

Edit 2:

Although, on PDF page 273 it does say this:

Visual inspection of the spacecraft disclosed no excessive heating effects. Other observations include the following:

(a) The heat shield appeared very similar to other recovered Gemini spacecraft. Two relatively deep gouges in the heat shield were noted. The cause of the gouges has not been determined.

Perhaps Cooper thought this may have been caused by micrometeorites?

Edited by booNyzarC
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Edit 2:

Although, on PDF page 273 it does say this:

Visual inspection of the spacecraft disclosed no excessive heating effects. Other observations include the following:

(a) The heat shield appeared very similar to other recovered Gemini spacecraft. Two relatively deep gouges in the heat shield were noted. The cause of the gouges has not been determined.

Perhaps Cooper thought this may have been caused by micrometeorites?

Superb work, should stand as a model for others interested in the subject, especially those with screen names beginning with 'Z'.

Note that on Gemini, unlike Mercury, the heat shield was not exposed to space -- it was protected by back-mounted equipment and propulsion modules, until reentry began. So it would be unlikely that anyone would think such gouges could have occurred at any time except reentry.

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I have been looking into meteoroid and orbital debris strikes on spacecraft and came up with the following NASA page which provides examples of strikes. The list is not exhaustive but seems to indicate the phenomenon is not rare.

Last night, I started to look through 784 pages of transcripts of the Gemini-5 communications with the ground. Then I finally stopped myself and said "Wait a minute, wait a minute. I just don't care about this at all."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scribd.com%2Fdoc%2F51180295%2FGemini-5-PAO-Transcript&ei=3duXUM2YA6aV0QG5yYDQAg&usg=AFQjCNGI2ueLU-vVXzALc9Z4z-b4_AB-jg&sig2=s4OVDGDEGqo4ylbnbXMOjA

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scribd.com%2Fdoc%2F108474009%2FGemini-5-Mission&ei=3duXUM2YA6aV0QG5yYDQAg&usg=AFQjCNHSbEz-dRcucFj2AL1iT7KyN9TRZw&sig2=EekZJ6TT1ndfgeaGPbebOg

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Superb work, should stand as a model for others interested in the subject, especially those with screen names beginning with 'Z'.

Note that on Gemini, unlike Mercury, the heat shield was not exposed to space -- it was protected by back-mounted equipment and propulsion modules, until reentry began. So it would be unlikely that anyone would think such gouges could have occurred at any time except reentry.

Thanks Jim, I thought that it had been covered but I wasn't sure what was protecting it exactly.

Also of note, it turns out that what I was thinking of as possible pressure fluctuations was probably only in reference to the fuel cells as discussed here.

Because of the mission's length, the supply of oxygen and hydrogen for the fuel cell was a concern. Cooper intended to operate the cells at the lowest possible pressure. But Conrad suddenly noticed that the pressure had upped too low. Flight Control told him to switch on the oxygen heater to raise the pressure. To his surprise, the needle continued to drop. [257] *snip*

*snip*

The heater had still not raised the pressure in the cells. Gemini V was out of communications range, so Cooper had to make a decision without help from the ground stations, as the pressure had fallen below 138 newtons per square centimeter (200 pounds per square inch). Never having seen a fuel cell working at a pressure that low, he was afraid it might stop entirely, and he reluctantly elected to power down. Without electrical power, rendezvous with the pod was out of the question. Gemini V's crew now wondered if, as Administrator Webb had feared, the mission had "busted."

Would Mission Director Christensen continue the flight or have them come home?74

Flight Director Kraft now had his first major problem at the new Mission Control Center. He knew the spacecraft had enough battery power for reentry even if the fuel cell failed completely, but he needed to know if there would be time enough to reach a good reentry zone, such as the mid-Pacific near Hawaii on the sixth revolution. While Kraft waited for an answer, the fuel cell pressure dropped to 83 newtons (120 pounds). McDonnell set up a test in St. Louis to find out the lowest working pressure for a fuel cell. During the fourth revolution, the oxygen pressure stabilized at 49 newtons (71 pounds). About this time, Kraft was assured that the batteries were good for 13 hours. Mission Control Center learned that the low-pressure tests in St. Louis were going well. With these facts in hand, Kraft decided Cooper and Conrad could fly for at least one day.

Every time I start looking into mission logs and reports like these I always walk away impressed by the level of detail that has been preserved and publicly provided by NASA. So many great accomplishments on the way to the moon, and on the missions which have followed in the footsteps of Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo.

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Of course you can't, and won't, because

(emphasis mine, Gemini Program Mission Report. Gemini V; page 456)

Always good to check info before posting.

I guess I could have saved myself some reading this morning if I'd bothered to read this post... LOL

Good find bmk :)

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Every time I start looking into mission logs and reports like these I always walk away impressed by the level of detail that has been preserved and publicly provided by NASA. So many great accomplishments on the way to the moon, and on the missions which have followed in the footsteps of Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo.

Same here, yet the moon hoax conspiracy still persists. Mind boggling. It takes a special kind of person to dismiss all of that data in favor of an unsupported.... oops, I almost said theory. ^_^

Sorry for off-topic post but...meh.

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Same here, yet the moon hoax conspiracy still persists. Mind boggling. It takes a special kind of person to dismiss all of that data in favor of an unsupported.... oops, I almost said theory. ^_^

Sorry for off-topic post but...meh.

Yeah, that's a mind boggling mystery in and of itself. Not the suggestion of a hoax, but rather how anyone could possibly believe such nonsense. These are among the most well documented events in human history. A special kind of person indeed...

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Yeah, that's a mind boggling mystery in and of itself. Not the suggestion of a hoax, but rather how anyone could possibly believe such nonsense. These are among the most well documented events in human history. A special kind of person indeed...

You will still find plenty of people on the Internet denying that the Holocaust happened, which is also one of the most documented events in history.

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There is another group that seems to deny that we have been visited by aliens (I plead the 5th! :P ). It has also been *documented for quite some time.

*I was going to say well documented however that seems to be the crux of the debate. Just how good is the documentation and what does it really signify?

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