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Vivica

Demons

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In meditation once I felt I met Abraham. We were standing on a high cliff looking over a lush valley. He extended his arm outward and said to me: There is a promise land...

I don't know if these things are private and I should keep it to myself.. It's just that Abraham came up so I guess I don't mind sharing that..

Edited by SpiritWriter

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In meditation once I felt I met Abraham. We were standing on a high cliff looking over a lush valley. He extended his arm outward and said to me: There is a promise land...

I don't know if these things are private and I should keep it to myself.. It's just that Abraham came up so I guess I don't mind sharing that..

Its your choice whether to share or not. What you experience as matters of faith are personal and yours alone. I hope that no one here would seek to demean that, whether any of us share your viewpoint or not. If your religious/spiritual experiences cause you to believe that there is a God of Abraham and that he will lead you to the promised land, then that sounds like a pretty positive thing in your life. I applaud that. So long as your beliefs don't demean or impinge upon the beliefs or non-beliefs of others I personally have no problem with your public testimonial.

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Not precisely. The problem of evil certainly touches on the same principles, but I was exclusively responding to the question of the logical consistency/viability of omniscience/omnipotence/omnibenevolence.

That is the reason critics claim for stating the "Problem of Evil". The goal of the critic, in this case you, is to attempt to build a contradiction. Philosophers break the question into to two parts. One, is there a logical contradiction, and two is there a probabilistic contradiction, or is there a reasonable explanation for why God created a world in which there is suffering and free willed agents who commit evil.

My two part response in my prior post was a brief answer to both cases.

A response to the problem of evil is called a theodicy. https://www.google.c...efine: theodicy

I personally prefer William Lane Craig's response.

[media=]

[/media]

https://www.google.c...problem of evil

I'm a molinist. God possesses middle knowledge that allows Him to have foreknown all potential universes He could have created including how each one of His free willed creations would have chosen

given all possible scenarios. I believe He chose the universe in which the optimum number of people would freely choose His salvation. That this is logically possible shows that there is no logical

contradiction.

This brief discussion does a very good job of describing why there is no probabilistic problem of evil:

1) It is impossible for the human mind to conceive of the information needed to determine if God does not have sufficient reason to create Evil

2) We exist not to please ourselves, but to submit to the will of God. It is our self delusion to believe our purpose is our own happiness. Simply knowing our Creator, and worshipping Him is the ultimate good.

Edited by OrdinaryClay

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It's the spirit of spirituality that bothers me. It's the absolute belief in story telling that in my opinion misrepresents the great spirit and anything truthfully spiritual that may have occurred. I believe Abraham might have been a real spiritual person at some point. But the stories that erupt from such and the telling of the character of the god, I think is about man and his problems. Most religions trace their roots back to Somone who probably was a very connected person, but then their messages are twisted to fit the manipulationd of men. I don't think the judeo god has better traits than some of the others, strictly observing what the bible says any way. Wankan tanka of the Lokota would be a much better choice in my opinion. Middle eastern mythology dosn't have any apeal to me.

You object to story telling then you proceed to tell us a story about somone. shamanism is story telling.

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Its your choice whether to share or not. What you experience as matters of faith are personal and yours alone. I hope that no one here would seek to demean that, whether any of us share your viewpoint or not. If your religious/spiritual experiences cause you to believe that there is a God of Abraham and that he will lead you to the promised land, then that sounds like a pretty positive thing in your life. I applaud that. So long as your beliefs don't demean or impinge upon the beliefs or non-beliefs of others I personally have no problem with your public testimonial.

Do you hold your beliefs to the same standard? Do you ensure that your beliefs do not impinge on my beliefs?

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2) We exist not to please ourselves, but to submit to the will of God. It is our self delusion to believe our purpose is our own happiness. Simply knowing our Creator, and worshipping Him is the ultimate good.

I understand that worship is important for many reasons - to connect with that energy that you feel is God as you understand it. I get that.

What about when people go out and kill in God's name? I'm sure there are plenty of times throughout history (some are documents in the Bible, others like the Crusades, or really any holy war or killing in any God's name) where people felt compelled to kill others and did so because they said that God told them to. That could be termed a form of obedience to God, and even worship of him.

How does that fit into worshipping God as being the ultimate good? Honestly. I'm not just trying to make an argument on an internet discussion board. This right here is one of my most fundamental problems with God. It doesn't make sense to me at all.

I ask this as a purely information seeking question. Its not a challenge to your belief system. You seem like a highly knowledgeable person when it comes to Christianity, which I have respect for.

Edited by orangepeaceful79

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Do you hold your beliefs to the same standard? Do you ensure that your beliefs do not impinge on my beliefs?

Has something I said made you feel as though your beliefs were impenged upon? If so then I apologize, not for my beliefs but the manner in which I have conveyed them. Quite sincerely.

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Its your choice whether to share or not. What you experience as matters of faith are personal and yours alone. I hope that no one here would seek to demean that, whether any of us share your viewpoint or not. If your religious/spiritual experiences cause you to believe that there is a God of Abraham and that he will lead you to the promised land, then that sounds like a pretty positive thing in your life. I applaud that. So long as your beliefs don't demean or impinge upon the beliefs or non-beliefs of others I personally have no problem with your public testimonial.

Thank you for saying that. Sometimes I feel that people are quick to say that a 'Christian' (I use this as an example, but I think it is a good one.) is trying to demean or impinge upon others simply by talking out loud about God (or whatever their belief is that is opposite to the company they are in). This makes an atmosphere that makes it difficult for a person to express themselves. Many people have the attitude that if we don't believe like they do that we should just not talk at all. This makes a very shallow society, and furthers segregation and bigotry. We are highly sensitive creatures and get angered easily. We may not need to go around constantly discussing deep topics with total strangers, but I think that we could be a little stronger, not get bent out of shape so easily and have discussions like these with people like: our barber, our child's teacher, our brothers girlfriend etc... Not in the stance that we are trying to convince anyone of anything, but that we wouldn't be afraid, that we would attempt to grow our own awareness about both the oneness we share and the diversity of our world. Meaning that if it were my perfect world, discussions of opposition should not be a problem, it should allow for the opening of the mind rather than a reason to fight. I know that this subject has deep roots, and a small paragraph cannot cover it, there are many things to consider, especially because of its religious nature.

I think in general, without identifying with Groups etc, we live in a world with so many opinions and attitudes of 'correctness' that it is hard for anyone to really get the chance to speak, without ridicule. Our collective experiences and understandings are so vast, and our abilities to understand another, who have been in a completely different place for decades, take a little more patients and understanding that we normally allow. If we only associate with those who act and think like we do, we end up farther in our corners, thinking we are more right, more educated, more privileged (more blessed, more favored?). Having a larger knowledge base of the WHOLE picture, I believe helps us to truly discern what is right and wrong and what our obstacles are as a large group.

I believe I have went into a tangent but I thank you for your reply, because you said something that really hit home for me, and something I think about often.

Edited by SpiritWriter

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You object to story telling then you proceed to tell us a story about somone. shamanism is story telling.

I do not object to story telling oral tradition is very powerful just not to be taken literal. But you completely missinderstand shamanism. Shamanism is about direct experience of the divine. Every group has its myths and stories, but at their core lies an experience. Even Christianity has this. The portrayed life of Christ has a tremendous amount of shamanic parallels, so does the life of mosses. Of course the word "shaman" is just a modern word based off of shaman in siberia. In fact, Jesus, if he existed was basically a Jewish mystic, just as a native American shaman were mystics for their particular group. Quite obviously the interpretations of the divine are going to be tainted by culture. That's the way that conciousness works...... Context.

Edited by Seeker79
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In meditation once I felt I met Abraham. We were standing on a high cliff looking over a lush valley. He extended his arm outward and said to me: There is a promise land...

I don't know if these things are private and I should keep it to myself.. It's just that Abraham came up so I guess I don't mind sharing that..

Sounds like a wonderful vision. I agree the promise land is still out there. I actually think its right under our feat. ;)

Edited by Seeker79

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Sounds like a wonderful vision. I agree the promise land is still out there. I actually think its right under our feat. ;)

A sadder version of it :(

--- HEY did you spell FEAT wrong on purpose? If you did I get it. If not I hope you get it too. :)

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I understand that worship is important for many reasons - to connect with that energy that you feel is God as you understand it. I get that.

What about when people go out and kill in God's name? I'm sure there are plenty of times throughout history (some are documents in the Bible, others like the Crusades, or really any holy war or killing in any God's name) where people felt compelled to kill others and did so because they said that God told them to. That could be termed a form of obedience to God, and even worship of him.

How does that fit into worshipping God as being the ultimate good? Honestly. I'm not just trying to make an argument on an internet discussion board. This right here is one of my most fundamental problems with God. It doesn't make sense to me at all.

I ask this as a purely information seeking question. Its not a challenge to your belief system. You seem like a highly knowledgeable person when it comes to Christianity, which I have respect for.

First I worship not to connect with God. If I did that would again be a self centered act. I don't worship to get a warm fuzzy. I worship because it is intrinsically good. I worship because God is ultimately Holy and deserves worship. His will is what is important not mine.

I understand your question. It is important to realize that saying you are doing something in God's name is not at all the same as God wanting them to do it. The people who commit acts of evil in God's name are simply scapegoating using His name. They are commiting evil, which means they are acting outside God's will. The crusades are a very good example. These men and rulers were not actnig in God's will.

In the case of the Old Testament this was a time when God did command acts of violence. It is important to realize in these cases God was acting to build His people. He was separating His people from the very perverse and evil cultures surrounding hem. These cultures worshipped demons and committed atrocities while doing so.

The ancient scoeities were an evil and wicked lot.

Archaeological Human Sacrifice

http://www.dailymail...arden-Eden.html

http://www.pantheon....les/b/baal.html

Ritual Cannibalism

http://mathildasanth...olithic-europe/

http://www.spiegel.d...,665824,00.html

Edited by OrdinaryClay

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Has something I said made you feel as though your beliefs were impenged upon? If so then I apologize, not for my beliefs but the manner in which I have conveyed them. Quite sincerely.

You have been very polite. I just wanted to see if you were consistent.

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I do not object to story telling oral tradition is very powerful just not to be taken literal. But you completely missinderstand shamanism. Shamanism is about direct experience of the divine. Every group has its myths and stories, but at their core lies an experience. Even Christianity has this. The portrayed life of Christ has a tremendous amount of shamanic parallels, so does the life of mosses. Of course the word "shaman" is just a modern word based off of shaman in siberia. In fact, Jesus, if he existed was basically a Jewish mystic, just as a native American shaman were mystics for their particular group. Quite obviously the interpretations of the divine are going to be tainted by culture. That's the way that conciousness works...... Context.

I assume your story about somone was intended to convey meaning which we were supposed to believe, else it would not mean much. The intent for the listener (reader) to believe is what is important, not whether a metaphor was used in the telling.

You are making multiple claims about the impact of shamanism on the world's religions. I assume all these claims are based on stories. Again you expect us to believe your stories, yet you reject the Bible's stories.

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First I worship not to connect with God. If I did that would again be a self centered act. I don't worship to get a warm fuzzy. I worship because it is intrinsically good. I worship because God is ultimately Holy and deserves worship. His will is what is important not mine.

I understand your question. It is important to realize that saying you are doing something in God's name is not at all the same as God wanting them to do it. The vast majority of people who commit acts of evil in God's name are simply scapegoating using His name. They are commiting evil, which means they are acting outside God's will. The crusades are a very good example. These men and rulers were not actnig in God's will.

In the case of the Old Testament this was a time when God did command acts of violence. It is important to realize in these cases God was acting to build His people. He was separating His people from the very perverse and evil cultures surrounding hem. These cultures worshipped demons and committed atrocities while doing so.

The ancient scoeities were an evil and wicked lot.

Archaeological Human Sacrifice

http://www.dailymail...arden-Eden.html

http://www.pantheon....les/b/baal.html

Ritual Cannibalism

http://mathildasanth...olithic-europe/

http://www.spiegel.d...,665824,00.html

I agree those people seem pretty awful. But killing is killing is killing isn't it? Isn't there a whole "thou shalt not kill" commandment or something? ITs one of the basic rules isn't it? I'm still really confused. Maybe even more so. Wouldn't it have made sense for God to wipe those folks out with a pestilence or something than go ordering his people to break one of his cardinal rules in order to separate the good folks from the bad ones?

I'm sure there is a perfectly normal and explainable reason why - I probably just don't know enough about the bible to understand it.

One other thing I've always wondered about is that in Biblical history, when people do things because God is speaking to them there is no question about it - those people wrote the bible out of words that God told them to write. Why doesn't that happen anymore? Why isn't God talking to people now and having them write new chapters of the Bible? I'd say we need it now just as much as we did then....the world is getting pretty messed up if you haven't noticed.

Sometimes I'm very curious about this stuff.

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You have been very polite. I just wanted to see if you were consistent.

Ha ha :) well played - testing me like that.

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I agree those people seem pretty awful. But killing is killing is killing isn't it? Isn't there a whole "thou shalt not kill" commandment or something? ITs one of the basic rules isn't it? I'm still really confused. Maybe even more so. Wouldn't it have made sense for God to wipe those folks out with a pestilence or something than go ordering his people to break one of his cardinal rules in order to separate the good folks from the bad ones?

I'm sure there is a perfectly normal and explainable reason why - I probably just don't know enough about the bible to understand it.

One other thing I've always wondered about is that in Biblical history, when people do things because God is speaking to them there is no question about it - those people wrote the bible out of words that God told them to write. Why doesn't that happen anymore? Why isn't God talking to people now and having them write new chapters of the Bible? I'd say we need it now just as much as we did then....the world is getting pretty messed up if you haven't noticed.

Sometimes I'm very curious about this stuff.

So we have moved on from "people who claim to act in God's name" to why God does what He does. I don't pretend to know the mind of God. I know parts of His plan through revelation, but I cannot know the entire scope of why He does what He does. Again He has middle knowledge. I don't. See this link for some explanation of why http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=208905&st=270#entry4509688

First, the commandments of God were given to us. God is divine. We are not divine. We are limited created beings. We are subject to God. He is not subject to our whims of what we think He should do. Second, the commandments of God not to kill were directed at unjust killings, and were not in the context of justice. The Old Testament did teach capital punishment in certain circumstances, so I don't see the conflict directly. You admitted the people in the surrounding cultures were "pretty awful".

God does communicate to people now. The Bible teaches He will always communicate to people. Regarding why the Biblical canon is not extended, I simply don't know. Apparently, God desires this time in history to have the canon sealed. How do I know this. I don't for sure. Maybe His teachings have been established and now is the time to act. Only He knows for sure. I do know that Rev 22:18 tells us clearly that the Book of Revelation is sealed so we have precedence.

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So we have moved on from "people who claim to act in God's name" to why God does what He does. I don't pretend to know the mind of God. I know parts of His plan through revelation, but I cannot know the entire scope of why He does what He does. Again He has middle knowledge. I don't. See this link for some explanation of why http://www.unexplain...70#entry4509688

First, the commandments of God were given to us. God is divine. We are not divine. We are limited created beings. We are subject to God. He is not subject to our whims of what we think He should do. Second, the commandments of God not to kill were directed at unjust killings, and were not in the context of justice. The Old Testament did teach capital punishment in certain circumstances, so I don't see the conflict directly. You admitted the people in the surrounding cultures were "pretty awful".

God does communicate to people now. The Bible teaches He will always communicate to people. Regarding why the Biblical canon is not extended, I simply don't know. Apparently, God desires this time in history to have the canon sealed. How do I know this. I don't for sure. Maybe His teachings have been established and now is the time to act. Only He knows for sure. I do know that Rev 22:18 tells us clearly that the Book of Revelation is sealed so we have precedence.

Its good that those explanations work for you. Thats pretty much what I've heard before though and still leaves me with lots of questions. Thats OK. I don't expect that my questions about all the things about Christianity (many religions actually) will ever be reconciled. That doesn't mean that I begrudge you your beliefs though. What is clear to you seems inconsistent and arbitrary to me.

Thanks for attempting to enlighten me.

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I assume your story about somone was intended to convey meaning which we were supposed to believe, else it would not mean much. The intent for the listener (reader) to believe is what is important, not whether a metaphor was used in the telling.

You are making multiple claims about the impact of shamanism on the world's religions. I assume all these claims are based on stories. Again you expect us to believe your stories, yet you reject the Bible's stories.

Those claims are based on critical thinking, study, experience and comparison. You can believe what you wish and you can decided to apply faith before thinking or thinking before faith, that's your choice to make.

Story's are ment to contain ideas, instructions, deeper meanings... Rarely literal truth. Literal truth is extremely hard to keep straight over time and generation. This is why we have a stringent cross referencing system to move towards truth in history.

Example. Islanders around Sumatra are some of the last nearly complete indenouse people on earth. When the massive tsunami hit, in the after math, anthropologists were worried that these small island populations might have been wiped out. Upon checking on them.. Virtually no one died. Why? the chief of one tribe explains that sometimes the spiirts of the earth and the sea have a dispute. This argument shakes the world tree. First the spirit of the earth takes back space from the water, then the water ( being a very powerful spirit) takes away most of the land, then the land takes it back. There are very specific holy sightes that are safe to retreat to during this carnage. As a result of these stories that every small child knows, everyone is safe from tsunamis. Now.many Modern educated westerners stood there while they watched the ocean retreat. Many many died, yet the westerner "knows" that there are no earth or ocean spirits. And things like this are just stories. To bad for them. There may not be, but the mythology has a function. Culturally, geographically, morally. Ancient middle eastern mythology taken as literal truth is lunacy. Just as I don't think Jesus is god itself, I don't think that white coyote is a real trickster spirit. That dosnt mean I don't listen. I love the Christ story. But the reality and the story are two different things. This is what allows me to take away from it what speaks to me and drop the dogma and junk.

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A sadder version of it :(

--- HEY did you spell FEAT wrong on purpose? If you did I get it. If not I hope you get it too. :)

I always make stupid mistakes. I use an iPhone and I type what's in my mind with my thumb. A lot of phonetic mistakes and stupid grammer, but hey it is what it is.

Sadder.... Yes. But it's there, we can have it back if want it bad enough.

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Whoa.. This topic still alive and always debate.. Even in debate we share knowladge each other.. ^_^

The simple thing for this case.. All who involved in here, meet and prove together with mystical and sains way.. And all people will get the truth answer from their curious.. Simple, right?

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i'm not realy shure what they might look like possable take on any form like a shapshifter but i can tell you what a suckabus looks like i was married to one!

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Demons are dangerous and should never be trusted. They can make you feel ill, and can even leave physical marks on you. You shouldn't do anything to bring one to you, as they can be quite difficult to get rid of.

Phyical marks. I had a dream about demon like figures but i couldnt remember it completely. I woke up the next morning and I had 4 perfect slash marks on my chest that were bleeding...and no marks on my shirt.

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I belonged to a paranormal invesistigation group a few years back. Someone looked into what it would take to get an exorcism by the Catholic Church. If you have an actual pssessed person,can get a priest to confirm it and get him to go through proper channels within the church, It would be a little over a year before the Vatican sends anyone.

*editted for spelling

What if the priests are demon possessed? How can a demon possessed help another demon possessed person? The entire catholic church is an illuminati (Reptilian/demon/fallen angel) based institution, what makes you think a fallen angel would exorcise another fallen angel?

Edited by araxia

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Very good point araxia. In fact, a great book to read about just that topic is The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. It is a story of a demon "uncle Screwtape" writing letters back and forth to his nephew/protege "Wormwood" about the subtleties of snagging the souls of christians without their even being aware of it. A high premium is placed on coaxing the targets into repetitive habits [where they don't think] and in feeling superior to others via their christianity, and a host of other traps of the spirit.

A must-read for would-be exorcists in the clergy.

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