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Vivica

Demons

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I find it easier to believe we simply just don't know all there is to know.

The fact that we don't know everything doesn't give us liscense to claim that all manner of ridiculous things are possible just because we don't know about them. The lack of evidence itself cannot be evidence for the unknown.

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Dont jump go the conclusion that demons are mere fantasy. They are not. Certainly reigouse attributes to them are. People do see things that they classify as demonic. Let's take sleep paralysis hullucinstions as an example. Many people see the same kinds of things. In fact they fall into a handfull of category's.

To keep parroting the words "Myth" and "fantasy" is not nearly close to the truth. There are perfectly good reasons for normal people to believe in demons. And yes they have seen and even felt them. Now..... As to the nature of these "demons" I don't think is anything demonic at all.

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The fact that we don't know everything doesn't give us liscense to claim that all manner of ridiculous things are possible just because we don't know about them. The lack of evidence itself cannot be evidence for the unknown.

That's assuming there is a lack of evidence. Have you watched the research being done on the paranormal recently? IR cameras, full spectrum cameras that see more than we do are coming up with human forms moving that have no explanation, at sites where dozens, if not hundreds of people are corroborating sightings of wraiths and all manner of inexplicable activity. That's why I made the comment about shared-hallucination. I beat you to the only other excuse you could come up with for credible eyewitness corroboration. You realize this is how things are proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in court. Simply announcing "there is no evidence" while a ton of it sits in the jury's lap is not going to win the case for you.

Like I said, I don't worry about believing or not believing. I suspend both and walk between the two to assist those suffering from these "inexplicable but real" occurances.

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Well, without getting into it too much, no one really believed the world was flat. Sailors have known for thousands of years that the earth is not flat. Most people, actually, knew that. 12.2 miles is the horizon, and sailors would notice the mast of ships being visible although the boat wasn't any longer, for a very long time. In essence, the whole, "people thought the earth was flat" thing is a phallacy.

Also, I have used, and continue to use Ouija boards fairly regularly as a party game, and to show people how they don't work. Just for s&g, try blindfolding someone and asking them to use it (hint: it all comes out as gibberish). I have never in all my years had one negative experience with a Ouija board, nor have any of the people I have used one with.

While I agree that science is not some oracle that has the answers to everything, it is the best tool we as human beings have for understanding causality.

The problem, as it were, with trying to explain something for which no evidence exists, by using evidentiary terms, is that you have to find external validation for something that is by and large an internally held belief. Or to be less prosaic, trying to explain something which has no physical prescence, by using terms which describe the physical world, is, by definition, impossible. To say that demons are energy beings that feed off of energy, but some type of unknown energy that can neither been seen or measured, falls into the realm of myth, not fact.

Science is the only mechanism we have to establish causality empirically. It is wrong to use this fact to conclude that causality can not be established any other way. A free agent can cause something to happen but foil any empirical attempt to determine it. This is why researchers use double blind (google it) methods in research.

Evidence does exist with regard to divination - including boards. It is not empirical evidence, though. It is testimonial. Properly vetted testimony is used today in legal systems, and has been through out human history. It is agreed by highly intelligent people that the truth can be established using testimony.

The error you commit is that you assume, like all Internet skeptics, that empirical evidence is the only only evidence, which is trivially un-true.

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The fact that we don't know everything doesn't give us liscense to claim that all manner of ridiculous things are possible just because we don't know about them. The lack of evidence itself cannot be evidence for the unknown.

And just because we know something through science does not give us license to conclude the supernatural does not exist.

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Dont jump go the conclusion that demons are mere fantasy. They are not. Certainly reigouse attributes to them are. People do see things that they classify as demonic. Let's take sleep paralysis hullucinstions as an example. Many people see the same kinds of things. In fact they fall into a handfull of category's.

To keep parroting the words "Myth" and "fantasy" is not nearly close to the truth. There are perfectly good reasons for normal people to believe in demons. And yes they have seen and even felt them. Now..... As to the nature of these "demons" I don't think is anything demonic at all.

Your posts are always vague. What do you believe the demonic is?

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But there is empirical evidence: photography and sound recordings. Even variables in temperature with sudden drastic drops or rises accompanying sights or sounds of a transparent or disembodied voice. That means something is happening to energy. Thermal energy. But energy is energy and apparently these forms of awareness without solid bodies are able to manipulate it somehow. And of course, matter is energy. We really understand very little of our world when we think we understand so much. And perhaps things must always stay that way. If we knew too much, we'd have to be killed for our own good..lol.. I'm saying that sort of half in jest because there is a grain of truth to it.

Just trust me.

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But there is empirical evidence: photography and sound recordings. Even variables in temperature with sudden drastic drops or rises accompanying sights or sounds of a transparent or disembodied voice. That means something is happening to energy. Thermal energy. But energy is energy and apparently these forms of awareness without solid bodies are able to manipulate it somehow. And of course, matter is energy. We really understand very little of our world when we think we understand so much. And perhaps things must always stay that way. If we knew too much, we'd have to be killed for our own good..lol.. I'm saying that sort of half in jest because there is a grain of truth to it.

Just trust me.

Actually we understand an enormous amount about energy and matter.

I agree there is observed evidence, but it is not repeatable using the scientific method, which is required to be truly empirical. The entities that manifest supernatural phenomenon have free wills and can choose to foil any experiment they choose. No one can set up a controlled experiment and reproduce, at will, the results of these manifestations.

Combine this with the fact that any digital result can be fabricated and, ultimately, all we have is testimony.

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Yes, I suppose. But to those houses and people afflicted by an infestation, all this is a tangent conversation. That's why I offered this remedy:

My $.02

Demons are merely predatory beings who feed on the release of human energy. This energy is best released through emotional outbursts and/or sustained fear. As anyone knows, fear can be draining. So can strife. So what do we find in homes possessed by demons, or for that matter, people associated *[*more on that below] with them? Strife and fear.

I think they are just beings who devour energy. Parasites. They excell in reading the human mind and playing it like a fiddle to elicit fear and strife. Then they set the table and feast. Adolescent people are the most "attractive" to them because adolescents are like ripe fruit: abundant with excess energy and most definitely capable of creating strife in their own lives and the lives of their family members. The perfect target for the most bounty.

Actual full-blown possessions are quite bombasitic. * But on an everyday basis, demons follow the footsteps and thoughts of men everywhere they go on a much more subtle scale. They attach themselves to people through their vulnerabilities. And they waylay well laid plans by exquisitely subtle coercion at times. The best description of this I've ever seen is a book called The Screwtape Letters. It's about a seasoned demon schooling his nephew in the art of snagging human souls through devious influence.

The solution to get rid of them is to starve them out by developing a strong light spiritual stance and to laugh at them in a nonchalant way. And to mean it. Create lighthearted chat and jokes about their presence in your life. Ban together with others affected by them and all have a good giggle at their expense. It's like pouring water on a fire. When you realize they are just parasites feeding off of emotional outbursts, it shrinks them down to what they really are.

I should add something more here. If a possession has been longstanding, the entity will be quite spoiled and lazy. Like a child who is having its free-cookie supply threatened, it will lash out quite amazingly at first. That is because having been fed for so long, so well, it is strong, healthy and fat. This is why most exorcisims fail and the offender comes back. Intially the light energy used to drive it away dissipates as the family goes back to old ruts. It is up to the family themselves to develop not just a temporary spirituality, but a permanent one. Longstanding possessions are difficult because the demon knows everyone's every thought. This is why you can't just talk the talk. You have to walk the walk. You also have to solicit aide from invisible forces of light beings to help you maintain your starvation vigil. Have the strongest members of your family create a bubble of golden light energy like a globe, surrounding each member of the family, the property, the possessions, friends, pets etc. [because they will attack you through surrogates if they have to]. Do this by simple meditation in a place not in the center of strife. Maintain this invisible structure through regular meditation. Over time, your spoiled brat will start to get skinny, and weaker. Just keep it up and eventually it will go off in search of easier pickin's....

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Your posts are always vague. What do you believe the demonic is?

Vague? Really? I always get acused of being cryptic.... I can't see it. I suppose it comes from well knowing certain things ;)

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This thread was created based on a question. Well, I have one in return. Why do you wish to know what a demon is? For personal intrigue, an experience that has left you confused and undoubtedly alarmed, or because you wish to seek them out? I will no longer give my person views regarding this in a public forum, I simply wish to know why someone would be so intent on discovering the truth without any conscious regard for the spirituality, mythology and demonology that is being provided as explanations for this query.

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Science is the only mechanism we have to establish causality empirically. It is wrong to use this fact to conclude that causality can not be established any other way. A free agent can cause something to happen but foil any empirical attempt to determine it. This is why researchers use double blind (google it) methods in research.

Evidence does exist with regard to divination - including boards. It is not empirical evidence, though. It is testimonial. Properly vetted testimony is used today in legal systems, and has been through out human history. It is agreed by highly intelligent people that the truth can be established using testimony.

The error you commit is that you assume, like all Internet skeptics, that empirical evidence is the only only evidence, which is trivially un-true.

What you seem to fail to understand my consdescending friend is that empirical evidence is the only thing that matters when it comes to undertsanding how things work. Eyewitness "testimony" is also notoriously unreliable. I have made no error. Once again, trying to use semantics to get around the fact that you can't show anything other than stories that serve as evidence of demons. Must be wonderful to live in your world, where nothing need be studied or explained, just taken on everyone's word.

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Yes, I suppose. But to those houses and people afflicted by an infestation, all this is a tangent conversation. That's why I offered this remedy:

Interesting read. Honestly. Where and how did you come by your view of the demonic?

I think your first error is in assuming there is an economy in play. What I mean is there is really no evidence the demons "feed" on anything. I believe the evidence is simply that they hate, and their hate drives their behavior. They hate us. They hate God. They hate the world.

I think your second error is made in assuming we have more control over what happens than we do. Our protection from the demonic is not through ourselves. What restrains them and what protects us is the power of almighty God - The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

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Vague? Really? I always get acused of being cryptic.... I can't see it. I suppose it comes from well knowing certain things ;)

Or maybe it comes from being vague and cryptic. So what do you believe the demonic is?

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I will no longer give my person views regarding this in a public forum,

May I ask why?

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What you seem to fail to understand my consdescending friend is that empirical evidence is the only thing that matters when it comes to undertsanding how things work.

Here you are making a truth claim with no empirical evidence to back it up. This itself contradicts our own statement.

Eyewitness "testimony" is also notoriously unreliable. I have made no error. Once again, trying to use semantics to get around the fact that you can't show anything other than stories that serve as evidence of demons.

I don't believe your rejection of testimony. If you witnessed a crime in plain sight against someone you loved I believe you would testify in a court of law based on your eye witness testimony. I further believe you would expect the court system to act on that testimony. No, I'm sorry, but the Internet meme - empiricism is all that matters in determining truth - is a false one perpetuated by the arrogance that imbues the Internet.

Must be wonderful to live in your world, where nothing need be studied or explained, just taken on everyone's word.

Strawman. I never said "nothing need be studied or explained". I simply stated the self evident truth, that evidence consists of more than empirical evidence.

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Interesting read. Honestly. Where and how did you come by your view of the demonic?

I think your first error is in assuming there is an economy in play. What I mean is there is really no evidence the demons "feed" on anything. I believe the evidence is simply that they hate, and their hate drives their behavior. They hate us. They hate God. They hate the world.

I think your second error is made in assuming we have more control over what happens than we do. Our protection from the demonic is not through ourselves. What restrains them and what protects us is the power of almighty God - The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

There is evidence. We know that in possessions, demons agitate their prey and the family around their prey. Agitation drains people. Even you would not deny that these possessions result in rapid aging, and draining of those involved. So the logical assumption is that the demons are profitting from this relationship. "Hate" is nothing more than an excitation of energy and it may in fact be the vehicle through which they achieve this goal to release that energy and feed upon it. You will not either deny that in a house where a demon is strongest is where a family is most drained and conversely where a family is the strongest, a demon is most weak, if present at all. The difference is in maintaining boundries. The demon just happens to be an expert at how to break those down is all.

Try an experiment. Sit down in a quiet place next to a pile of wood and a splitting maul. At first, think of all the people that agitate you, the situations that make you angry, etc. or better yet, the situations or people you fear. Then with a timer, get up and see how much wood you can chop in ten minutes. The next day do the same exact thing, only this time, think of all the positive things and funny things you can in life; who makes you smile, what makes your footsteps lighter and your shoulders drop from your ears. Now set your timer and chop wood..

You will see..

They know. They know exactly how to get us to loosen our energy. You can assume it's for the love of hate, but I'm banking that they use that energy to be present here and manifest here. Without it, they cannot do so.

Claiming that love and family unity can only come about through a christian interpretation is a bit archaic and narrow? If you read The Screwtape Letters, you will see precisely why that claim could be actually aiding the quest of demons instead of eradicating it. By restricting thoughts and ideology in a person "certain" they've found "the right path", a demon can manipulate a thought process into a box canyon. From there, tricking their victim into mistakes is a matter of ease. This is how your faith can be challenged and eroded without your being aware of it. There's nothing wrong with christianity, so long as it does not view itself as an idol-intrinsic apart from a nameless and faceless God. So often we find christians mistaking worship of the bible over worship of a complex, timeless and adaptable being known as God. It is God's very adaptability which makes itself potent and a fierce foe of these dark forces. Christians would do well to make a mental note of this. Just don't mistake flexibility for sinning. The way you avoid this is to recapitulate your past, be aware of your own foibles and weaknesses thereby, and being thusly aware, you become less susceptible to prey by demons and their lessor parasites that attach themselves to people.

All that will send sceptics here reeling with glee, I'm sure...lol.. But if you suspend doubt for a moment, you can see how these things make logical sense, without emperical proof. And by all means, don't make a religion out of what you just read!..lol..

Keep it practical. People are suffering!

Edited by SSilhouette

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Demon is a corruption of the Greek Daimon which originally meant more of an elemental spirit energy and later the personification of our Higher Self/Guardian Angel it was then spelled Dæmon. The Abrahamics devised the Fall with angels that would now be those naughty pagan gods and the other angels led by Lucifer.

A Demon as far as we are concerned is an archetypal image of our unconsciousness (some would say of the Collective Unconsciousness), they are Thought-Forms, Egregores, and some God-Forms, but for the most part they are symbolic images in our unconsciousness. We empower them, we recreate them as time passes, some of them are left behind while newer ones are given birth to. The most powerful ones have remained.

No one is going to encounter a physical demon, that would be one helluva magick trick! On the other hand you can experience one under the correct circumstances.

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May I ask why?

Because you can only lead a horse to the water, you can't make it drink. I can spout my knowledge and experience of demons until my own brain explodes but if the person I'm trying to speak to won't listen, what is the point? I don't share, I advise. I am not here to gossip and confide; I'm here to assist.

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Or maybe it comes from being vague and cryptic. So what do you believe the demonic is?

There are a whole range of things "demonic" experiences come from. The most obviouse is mental illness, the least obviouse is misinterpretation. Guessing the lion in the grass when it was just a bird. This goes far deeper into our psyche than people realize. It's a fundamental part of our evolution. Some of us call it our shadow. Shadow rears itself in altered states of conciousness and can even manifest into mental illness even to the point of having its own personality ( a form of dissasociative disorder...I.e possession). Human beings are such powerful creators we can practically bring subjective life to our constructs unintentionally or intentionally ( see tulpas). Where most normal people will experience shadow is during a sleep paralysis episode. The altered state of conciousness allows for manifestation.

Successful concouse integration of the shadow back into the psyche is a component of enlightenment. But it's also a continual process. This is evident in the typical archytipical "Heros journey" at some point all Heros decent into hell to face the "demonic" forces there and return have gained a new higher level of wisdom and understanding. Odysius, Hercules, Jesus, sidartha etc etc. my favorite is sidartha. When he faced the demon hords of mara. I love it so much because I have had an identical experience. And seeing it recorded thousands of years ago and having the experience myself makes for a particularly powerful revelation.

The funny thing is that when you emerge from an integration experience you actually feel like a huge weight has been lifted off your shoulders.., I can't explain it but you actually feel lighter. I have come to believe that is actually why it's called enlightenment. understanding shadow is a profound life changing event and can make sperson see the world in an entirely different light.

There are no "demons" other than what we make.. But those that we make can have quite an affect on us.

Astral paracites not with standing. That's a whole other issue that I am undecided on at the moment. I will see how my next encounter goes before I start makeing personal decisions on weather these things are some sort of real entity or just another aspect of ever evolving shadow.

Edited by Seeker79

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Mental illness typically isn't shared. So that won't explain dozens of people witnessing the same thing. So shared-hallucination is the only option left to describe multiple people witnessesing and describing demons. And shared-hallucination is evidence of the paranormal in itself. So take your pick.

As you know, I opt for the possibility that we don't know all there is to know about awarenesses and what forms they can take. We are like cavemen just starting out with fire in that realm of understanding.

Demon is a corruption of the Greek Daimon which originally meant more of an elemental spirit energy and later the personification of our Higher Self/Guardian Angel it was then spelled Dæmon. The Abrahamics devised the Fall with angels that would now be those naughty pagan gods and the other angels led by Lucifer.

A Demon as far as we are concerned is an archetypal image of our unconsciousness (some would say of the Collective Unconsciousness), they are Thought-Forms, Egregores, and some God-Forms, but for the most part they are symbolic images in our unconsciousness. We empower them, we recreate them as time passes, some of them are left behind while newer ones are given birth to. The most powerful ones have remained.

No one is going to encounter a physical demon, that would be one helluva magick trick! On the other hand you can experience one under the correct circumstances.

Those are classifications. Words. What we are talking about here is a witnesses phenomenon that I'm sure has been given thousands of names over the millenia. But thanks for pointing out that the phenomenon has been very very longstanding. Indeed, more evidence to support that it is an actual reality instead of a figment of people's imaginations. Cultures change, values change...but multiple folks are still seeing the same dishes and furniture flying over the place with nobody hurling them...

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Mental illness typically isn't shared. So that won't explain dozens of people witnessing the same thing. So shared-hallucination is the only option left to describe multiple people witnessesing and describing demons. And shared-hallucination is evidence of the paranormal in itself. So take your pick.

As you know, I opt for the possibility that we don't know all there is to know about awarenesses and what forms they can take. We are like cavemen just starting out with fire in that realm of understanding.

Those are classifications. Words. What we are talking about here is a witnesses phenomenon that I'm sure has been given thousands of names over the millenia. But thanks for pointing out that the phenomenon has been very very longstanding. Indeed, more evidence to support that it is an actual reality instead of a figment of people's imaginations. Cultures change, values change...but multiple folks are still seeing the same dishes and furniture flying over the place with nobody hurling them...

:santa: Two words come to mind: 'mass hysteria', oddly enough in today's world of cell phone camcorders and whatnot none of these poltergeist-like scenes has ever been filmed, or even one demon for that matter.

Now, don't get me wrong, I've practiced ritualism for a long time, been to that point where the veil between reality and the abyss has torn, experienced my share of visions, heard my voices, etc. been involved in group workings where the phenomenon has been shared by several, only to realized that the exact same thing was never shared, only individual experiences of the same working.

Is everyone familiar with "Poke" Runyon? For me he has really helped to establish the realities behind ceremony and ritual.

Edited by Etu Malku

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I'm not familiar with ritualism. I'm not talking about meditation or willed hocus pocus or any such thing. I'm talking about three people walking off the street, in everyday awareness, into a house where dishes are flying and furniture upending who all three look at each other and say, "did you just see that blue dish with the white flowers fly right past our heads going from left to right?!" And the other two saying, "yep, that's exactly what we saw".

And as someone already said, these witnessings of plain old folk not doing voodoo or any such have been going on since time immemorial. Time to take another look at them for what they are.

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I'm not familiar with ritualism. I'm not talking about meditation or willed hocus pocus or any such thing. I'm talking about three people walking off the street, in everyday awareness, into a house where dishes are flying and furniture upending who all three look at each other and say, "did you just see that blue dish with the white flowers fly right past our heads going from left to right?!" And the other two saying, "yep, that's exactly what we saw".

And as someone already said, these witnessings of plain old folk not doing voodoo or any such have been going on since time immemorial. Time to take another look at them for what they are.

I'm unconvinced, why couldn't somebody take a pic or film it? Why can't ANYONE capture even one of these events throughout all of history?

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They can and they have. Do you not watch the paranormal shows on your TV? Have you not seen the empirical evidence being gathered there? If that doesn't qualify, what will? Can belief [even sceptical] be so religious in its nature that it shuts out even empirical evidence that contrasts with its dogma? Scepticism can become a religion in itself. Be careful of that.

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