Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

Roswell debris tested; Not from Earth


Recommended Posts

By being honest in my reply to the question about knowing something I wasn't telling, I seem to have created a bit of a mystery. Actually, I have no 'inside' information about what Frank Kimbler is doing, or not doing , or has done, or failed to do, with respect to the metal fragments he says he found.


I did manage to learn the identity of the lab that did the isotope testing, and which Frank Kimbler never saw fit to name. I also obtained information on various ways to contact him. These weren't given to me, I had to search them out. I also learned certain pieces of background information about Frank Kimbler that seem to have, at best, a minor bearing on the issue of the Roswell metal. These did at least give me a sense of the man, and how he would be likely to proceed, under certain conditions.

I have no knowledge of who, if anyone, is collaborating scientifically with him in analyzing the metal fragments. I merely sought to 'read between the lines' of his last communication, on the ATS forum, and surmised that such collaboration could be the basis for his silence.


I think it is unfortunate, the way he appears to have interpreted the suggestion he says he received to remain silent. He could have at least confirmed, when I asked him directly, if scientific work was currently underway, and if peer reviewed scientific publication was contemplated. It's possible he perceived that admitting even this much could violate some agreement, tacit or formal, that he had made, in exchange for scientific help.

Edited by bison
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Am I understanding this assumption correctly?

Because the Government has not been interested to date, this means they are interested in Mr Kimblers find now?

Is that right?

I can't say that that's what I intended to convey. It is a matter of record, some of which had to pried from various agencies grips, that the U.S. government has long taken a proprietary attitude toward, and a great interest in Unidentified Flying Objects. These persisted, despite the disclaimers associated with the closing of Project BlueBook, and the Condon Committee report.

Of course, the apparent lack of interest in Mr. Kimbler may be tactical decision, due to a disinclination to make their interest too obvious, to too many. Perhaps they hope that the problem will simply go away, presumably by the evidence being scientifically disconfirmed.

Suppose the evidence is instead confirmed to be extraterrestrial. The government would then be in an unenviable position. The reasonable inference will be that it is not able to control the comings and goings on Earth of a technologically superior civilization. Further, a monumental, decades-long deception will be assumed to have occurred, and with good reason.


The position of the U.S. government in this case may be to try to get to the forefront of an unstoppable tide of disclosure, and at least appear to be leading the parade. To accomplish this they would presumably begin to release what they know about UFOs.

Edited by bison
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't say that that's what I intended to convey. It is a matter of record, some of which had to pried from various agencies grips, that the U.S. government has long taken a proprietary attitude toward, and a great interest in Unidentified Flying Objects. These persisted, despite the disclaimers associated with the closing of Project BlueBook, and the Condon Committee report.

Thank you for clearing that up, however I find this situation hardly surprising? The UFO phenomena could be a source of free power, the potential of the phenomena is enormous.

Of course, the apparent lack of interest in Mr. Kimbler may be tactical decision, due to a disinclination to make their interest too obvious, to too many. Perhaps they hope that the problem will simply go away, presumably by the evidence being scientifically disconfirmed.

I guess that is possible, but his persistence with emailing the Who's who in UFOlogy indicates otherwise?

Suppose the evidence is instead confirmed to be extraterrestrial. The government would then be in an unenviable position. The reasonable inference will be that it is not able to control the comings and goings on Earth of a technologically superior civilization. Further, a monumental, decades-long deception will be assumed to have occurred, and with good reason.


The position of the U.S. government in this case may be to try to get to the forefront of an unstoppable tide of disclosure, and at least appear to be leading the parade. To accomplish this they would presumably begin to release what they know about UFOs.

I do not think that would be the case at all. This would be a first step in a long line of investigation. If the artifact could indeed be proven to be of unearthly origin, then the proof that the metal was actually manufactured woud be the next hurdle. To date, this assumption has not been verified. It just "seems likely".

And they may well have released al they know about UFO's. It seems no independent body can attain more information than what has been released, and verify with with regards to the ETH. If nobody on earth can get this information, why do some believe it exists?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

<snip>

Suppose the evidence is instead confirmed to be extraterrestrial. The government would then be in an unenviable position.

I do not understand this position at all to be honest. Why is there this precognition that the Government, whoever it might be, would be able to control where ET decided to crash or just visit? Why would ET care at all?

The reasonable inference will be that it is not able to control the comings and goings on Earth of a technologically superior civilization.

Eh, no. And why would there even be that thought that they could in the first place? I am pretty sure that any Government on this Earth are well aware that they would have no control over an advanced species capable of traversing interstellar space. Controlling their comings and goings would be outside of any entity here on Earth.

Further, a monumental, decades-long deception will be assumed to have occurred, and with good reason.

What deception? I think you are deceiving yourself.

The position of the U.S. government in this case may be to try to get to the forefront of an unstoppable tide of disclosure, and at least appear to be leading the parade.

What disclosure?! The one we have heard is just around the corner for the last 15 years or so? What if what the US Government (to pick one) has disclosed is what they know?! Somehow I lean towards that.

To accomplish this they would presumably begin to release what they know about UFOs.

What if they already have?!

That said, I do not understand Mr. Kimbler's reluctance to publish his results, if he ever got some. Which I actually doubt, or if he got them, then he is probably reluctant to publish them given that they probably revealed something very mundane and earthly. Frankly, he needs to get a simple mass-spec (mass spectrometry) done, which will give him the exact material composition and the isotopes. Something like that has a lead time of less than a week and a cost of less than $1000/sample submitted + hours required to set it up. This is what is called a simple dilute and shoot test. Nothing fancy, but will give him what he needs.

Then he could also go for an SEM (scanning electron microscope) test, which would show micro punctures arising from long exposures to space. That is yet another relatively cheap and fast test. We have an SEM in our lab and the hourly rate to use it is about $100 + labor.

These two tests would conclusively show whether Mr. Kimbler's assertions were correct or not. Then one can always do more elaborate measurements and analyses after that. But just the first couple of tests would show whether he was right or not. And they are not out of the realm for a private person.

I can only guess at the lack of news for this, but whatever the reason is, it is not beneficial for Mr. Kimbler.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Edited by badeskov
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would be as if we sent back a lap top loaded with every thing of the known universe on it ,without the power pack to The Cave Man days ! They might use it to cook with ?

If a highly advanced Craft were to be dropped into our lap we would be more or less in the same boat and Gork and Bam-Bam !

At least we would give it the old College try !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do not understand this position at all to be honest. Why is there this precognition that the Government, whoever it might be, would be able to control where ET decided to crash or just visit? Why would ET care at all?

Eh, no. And why would there even be that thought that they could in the first place? I am pretty sure that any Government on this Earth are well aware that they would have no control over an advanced species capable of traversing interstellar space. Controlling their comings and goings would be outside of any entity here on Earth.

What deception? I think you are deceiving yourself.

What disclosure?! The one we have heard is just around the corner for the last 15 years or so? What if what the US Government (to pick one) has disclosed is what they know?! Somehow I lean towards that.

What if they already have?!

That said, I do not understand Mr. Kimbler's reluctance to publish his results, if he ever got some. Which I actually doubt, or if he got them, then he is probably reluctant to publish them given that they probably revealed something very mundane and earthly. Frankly, he needs to get a simple mass-spec (mass spectrometry) done, which will give him the exact material composition and the isotopes. Something like that has a lead time of less than a week and a cost of less than $1000/sample submitted + hours required to set it up. This is what is called a simple dilute and shoot test. Nothing fancy, but will give him what he needs.

Then he could also go for an SEM (scanning electron microscope) test, which would show micro punctures arising from long exposures to space. That is yet another relatively cheap and fast test. We have an SEM in our lab and the hourly rate to use it is about $100 + labor.

These two tests would conclusively show whether Mr. Kimbler's assertions were correct or not. Then one can always do more elaborate measurements and analyses after that. But just the first couple of tests would show whether he was right or not. And they are not out of the realm for a private person.

I can only guess at the lack of news for this, but whatever the reason is, it is not beneficial for Mr. Kimbler.

Cheers,

Badeskov

I don't suppose that the U.S.government ever assumed that it would be able to control the actions of a very much more advanced extraterrestrial civilization. I'm strongly inclined to suspect that they found themselves confronted with such a situation at some point, and reacted to it.

My point was that they might well be extremely averse to admitting that such a civilization was active at this planet, because this would amount to an admission of their helplessness. What ruling entity would ever want to have to admit such a thing?

Am I deceiving myself about the U.S. government withholding information about UFOs and extraterrestrial life? I think this unlikely. I referred to documentary evidence that supports the conclusion that information was and is withheld. Much more of the same sort of evidence could be cited.


The position of the U.S. government is that there is no evidence of an extraterrestrial civilization visiting this planet. If I find that such evidence exists, I must conclude that the government is not telling all it knows.

The fact that some persons have made predictions about UFO disclosure occurring on or by a certain date, only to see these dates pass uneventfully is irrelevant. I was merely referring to the possibility that such a disclosure might occur under certain conditions. To the best of my knowledge, those conditions do not currently exist. This does not rule out the possibility they they may exist at some time in the future.


I have explained why Mr. Kimbler might not wish to immediately publish the results of the further analysis of the metal fragments he says he found. I have given an example of the results of scientific work being withheld for a time, at the discretion of a participating scientist. I could give others. This has nothing to do with the cost of such tests, nor the amount of time consumed in doing them. It does have to do with a common proprietary attitude in science toward important evidence, and the desire that it not be prematurely used by others, or misused.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope, the more common debate is distance. But blind believers rarely listen to what a skeptic actually has to say.

Yeah, because UFO skeptics know exactly how far other civilizations in this universe can travel, right? :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok so i want to know why they original said that some sort of an flying saucer has crashed in New Mexico and they even told the press that news, but later in 3 days of time they denied everything and said it was Ballon. So if this was ballon why was there so much debris?? Even if it exploded parts would be scattered around the desert in huge radius, probably winds would take them even further. Whatever crashed there wasn't a ballon healthy logic applies that. But there is a big chance some sort of a testing plane / craft crashed and those army man on site didn't even had a clue that it is actualy their own project or soviets ( doubt that one, too far away from Russia ). Thou i can't explain "suposable" bodies.

Answer to this mystery would be solved by asking the man in charge of the operation what was it? If he isn't dead already.

This is suposablly a USAAF Report. Still could count as disinformation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We will never know Im sure of this ! Roswell was an event to spur on the Imagination of a War weary country into the next step of paranoia !TO fund the next generation of War needs to side track all the would be sneeksters,and techgeesters!

We are better off not knowing ,for the day may coem ,or NOT ! That ET dose come to our world and hand over the eviction papers all in the form of a little virus !

And As I said before It will be Boom,Boom out go the lights. We will have no chance to fight it !

Happy Thanksgiving ! :innocent:

post-68971-0-37962700-1322155785_thumb.j

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, because UFO skeptics know exactly how far other civilizations in this universe can travel, right? :rolleyes:

We are all subject to the same laws of physics. Lets face it, UFO believers imagine more than is possible, and then get upset when others point out any flaw in this imaginative proposal. Have you a valid argument for such a proposal? Or do you just imagine it is possible? If nothing else, at least be honest to yourself when you answer that one.

We all know you Viper2, you have a chip on your shoulder against skeptics. Perhaps a nerd bullied you at school, I don't know. But the problem lies with you pal, this is a discussion forum, that is what seems to be your bugbear. You just want everyone to agree with you blindly without evidence. Not going to happen in any lifetime. :no:

Edited by psyche101
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok so i want to know why they original said that some sort of an flying saucer has crashed in New Mexico and they even told the press that news, but later in 3 days of time they denied everything and said it was Ballon. So if this was ballon why was there so much debris?? Even if it exploded parts would be scattered around the desert in huge radius, probably winds would take them even further. Whatever crashed there wasn't a ballon healthy logic applies that. But there is a big chance some sort of a testing plane / craft crashed and those army man on site didn't even had a clue that it is actualy their own project or soviets ( doubt that one, too far away from Russia ). Thou i can't explain "suposable" bodies.

Answer to this mystery would be solved by asking the man in charge of the operation what was it? If he isn't dead already.

This is suposablly a USAAF Report. Still could count as disinformation.

Just linking to the report is useless, if you actually read it, it will answer your questions. That is the first report, there is another and a GAO report as well. How did you come to the conclusion that it was disinformation without reading it?

Also, that is one seriously cut down version of the actual report. The original has many pictures, detailed interviews, and references where the information came from. I recommend that you look both up, and give them a read before commenting on them again. If you have trouble finding the pdf's online, give me a holler in PM and I will send you copies via email if you like. Worth a read, wether you agree with them or not, at least you would have both sides of the story then, and not only the popular media hyped up version.

Just a hint, Google Walter Haut, and look up the description of the craft he claims to have seen, then you tell me how that thing made the debris field ;) Keep in mind that a balloon train is 600 foot long. Not that I feel that is what landed there, but all the same, one can see how the MOGUL conclusion stood up to scrutiny for so long, and how it came about. Good to have a well rounded understanding I feel.

Not going any further, I suggest you read all that, make your own mind up, and then get back to me. If you do, I have no doubt that you and I will be in for some interesting discussion.

Edited by psyche101
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi bison,

I don't suppose that the U.S.government ever assumed that it would be able to control the actions of a very much more advanced extraterrestrial civilization. I'm strongly inclined to suspect that they found themselves confronted with such a situation at some point, and reacted to it. My point was that they might well be extremely averse to admitting that such a civilization was active at this planet, because this would amount to an admission of their helplessness. What ruling entity would ever want to have to admit such a thing?

Frankly, I completely disagree with you. Why wouldn't they? I think people in general would accept that fact pretty openly, but another thing would be that it would be pretty obvious as we would see a major shift in defense priorities.

Am I deceiving myself about the U.S. government withholding information about UFOs and extraterrestrial life? I think this unlikely.

UFOs, no. ET yes, in my honest opinion.

I referred to documentary evidence that supports the conclusion that information was and is withheld. Much more of the same sort of evidence could be cited.

It is indeed. Of UFOs. Of ET, I seriously doubt that.

The position of the U.S. government is that there is no evidence of an extraterrestrial civilization visiting this planet. If I find that such evidence exists, I must conclude that the government is not telling all it knows.

Agreed. But I honestly do not think you can find such evidence. Especially as the major part of such investigations are done by civilian entities, not by Government bodies. And they will talk.

The fact that some persons have made predictions about UFO disclosure occurring on or by a certain date, only to see these dates pass uneventfully is irrelevant.

Agreed.

I was merely referring to the possibility that such a disclosure might occur under certain conditions. To the best of my knowledge, those conditions do not currently exist.

Again, agreed. But in my honest opinion those conditions have not been met as they simply do not have that information.

This does not rule out the possibility they they may exist at some time in the future.

It could very well.

I have explained why Mr. Kimbler might not wish to immediately publish the results of the further analysis of the metal fragments he says he found. I have given an example of the results of scientific work being withheld for a time, at the discretion of a participating scientist. I could give others. This has nothing to do with the cost of such tests, nor the amount of time consumed in doing them. It does have to do with a common proprietary attitude in science toward important evidence, and the desire that it not be prematurely used by others, or misused.

Which, by all means of respect, is utter nonsense. What is the proprietary value of a piece of a metal from an alleged spaceship? He could publish and get fame and fortune without giving away any secrets he might want to hold on to. He would not have to give away the exact composition etc., but there would most likely be other characteristics that he could publish as evidence.

No, in my honest opinion he is stalling because he has the top of a beer can and he knows it.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed. But I honestly do not think you can find such evidence. Especially as the major part of such investigations are done by civilian entities, not by Government bodies. And they will talk.

Hey Badeskov, If I may jump in on this point. Would people talking (as I believe they already do) surely only be discounted as any type of evidence, it would just be anectodal and therefore whether goverment or civilian the outcome is the same?

cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We are all subject to the same laws of physics. Lets face it, UFO believers imagine more than is possible, and then get upset when others point out any flaw in this imaginative proposal. Have you a valid argument for such a proposal? Or do you just imagine it is possible? If nothing else, at least be honest to yourself when you answer that one.

We all know you Viper2, you have a chip on your shoulder against skeptics. Perhaps a nerd bullied you at school, I don't know. But the problem lies with you pal, this is a discussion forum, that is what seems to be your bugbear. You just want everyone to agree with you blindly without evidence. Not going to happen in any lifetime. :no:

When we imagine something, can we know that it is impossible? The 'laws' of physics merely reflect our current understanding of the subject. These can not be reified into the very basis of the universe and reality. Or are we to assume that human knowledge is correct and complete in all respects? I would point out that radio waves were once derided as a fantasy, with no basis in the real world, and that radioactivity was unknown until a little over a century ago.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Badeskov, If I may jump in on this point. Would people talking (as I believe they already do) surely only be discounted as any type of evidence, it would just be anectodal and therefore whether goverment or civilian the outcome is the same?

cheers

Hey quillius,

Please do drop in at any time. I always enjoy reading what you have to say :)

People would be talking, however, if we had this kind of evidence they would also be able to back it up. What many people fail to realize is that, by far, the largest part of scientific analyses is done by civilian entities and they talk. Simply because that is their job, they publish. Not only that, they are curious people, eager to share information to learn more. And if they had something substantial to share, it would come with the hard data to support it.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see the dummies were flying the spy balloon and crashed in yosh` zaggarts field and a party broke out with all the Shiner Bock beer one could hold down? :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When we imagine something, can we know that it is impossible? The 'laws' of physics merely reflect our current understanding of the subject. These can not be reified into the very basis of the universe and reality. Or are we to assume that human knowledge is correct and complete in all respects? I would point out that radio waves were once derided as a fantasy, with no basis in the real world, and that radioactivity was unknown until a little over a century ago.


M theory in current physics speaks of the possibility of dimensions outside what we think of as normal space. It is indicated that 'shortcuts' through these dimensions could reduce the the travel time between point A and and point B within normal space. This would effectively allow faster than light travel in a global sense, while maintaining Special Relativity's light speed limit within 'normal' space. Of course we are not currently able to use such a possibility for space travel. Can we know that this will always be the case, or that others with a substantial head start on us have not already learned how to do so?

That's exactly the point. Most UFO skeptics on forums such as this know very little about theoretical physics (or physics at all), yet they make proclamations as to what is possible and what isn't. What they do is really nothing more than a form of hidden trolling in an attempt to agitate UFO believers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's exactly the point. Most UFO skeptics on forums such as this know very little about theoretical physics (or physics at all), yet they make proclamations as to what is possible and what isn't. What they do is really nothing more than a form of hidden trolling in an attempt to agitate UFO believers.

So-called skeptics invariably have a better grasp of science (theoretical or otherwise) than Believers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When we imagine something, can we know that it is impossible?

Yes indeed we can! Can you fly to the Sun using only your own body and walk on it naked?

Can you post my wife's middle name? I imagine that you seem to think that such is possible and a demonstration would convince me.

The 'laws' of physics merely reflect our current understanding of the subject. These can not be reified into the very basis of the universe and reality.

I never said that was the case, but you are remiss in mentioning that what we do know makes up a base so to speak. Just like with the hominid model, initial base findings were correct, we do have evolution, yet it took many decades to refine that progression from a relay into a malay. It leaves room to modify what we do know. That is the very essence of science. Science is not Knowledge, it is the pursuit of knowledge.

Or are we to assume that human knowledge is correct and complete in all respects?

As I said above, I see every reason to believe that we have indeed worked out some basics. I always think of E=MC2 as the Universes 1+1=2. I expect room for improvement, but I do not believe there is any reason to feel that physics requires a complete re-write. It is working quite OK so far. NASA's LISA experiment is going great guns, and should shore up GR principals quite solidly as we speak.

I would point out that radio waves were once derided as a fantasy, with no basis in the real world, and that radioactivity was unknown until a little over a century ago.

How is this relevant? I could also tell you how science has been held back for centuries by belief. I am quite sure you are well aware of such historical record. Science has not held science back. Men have held science back. That is the big difference here. Science prevails.

M theory in current physics speaks of the possibility of dimensions outside what we think of as normal space. It is indicated that 'shortcuts' through these dimensions could reduce the the travel time between point A and and point B within normal space. This would effectively allow faster than light travel in a global sense, while maintaining Special Relativity's light speed limit within 'normal' space. Of course we are not currently able to use such a possibility for space travel. Can we know that this will always be the case, or that others with a substantial head start on us have not already learned how to do so?

No it would not allow travel at all. How do you envisage it would? The dimensions that M theory predicts are microscopic. Not useful to us physically in any way, and yes, they (dimensions) are new "ways to move" not new universes and worlds. Sci Fi writers have much to explain there. As such, the best we can hope for from that avenue is a better communications system for interstellar distances. Can you offer a proposal whereby we might send a spaceship through a microscopic opening? You have your work cut out for you there I have to say. Expecting others to simply "accomplish the impossible" is a very long way from an objective viewpoint I find personally. It seems a bit of a cop out too I have to say. Surely we are not just going to wait around in hope that someone is better at this than we are?

Edited by psyche101
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's exactly the point. Most UFO skeptics on forums such as this know very little about theoretical physics (or physics at all), yet they make proclamations as to what is possible and what isn't. What they do is really nothing more than a form of hidden trolling in an attempt to agitate UFO believers.

And yet by the same logic you are expecting everyone to believe that ETHers can determine everything we need to know about a UFO from a few seconds glance at a distance?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.