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Biff Wellington

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I have contacted a number of organizations, asking for specifics on exactly this question - how ideomotor works with more than one person, and hope at least one will get back to me with salient information; when they do, this is the absolute first place I will share it.

That's fantastic! Thank you! Please keep us posted. :)

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Well let's put it this way, since "driving" and "riding" failed to resonate with you, how about - one person is "pitching" and the other person is "catching".

How's that?

As to scientific evidence, you can use google just as eaily as I can.

This board is absolutely incredible. A fully understood psychological effect is completely discarded in favor of woo based on a NOVELTY TOY that has been discredited so many times in the past 100+ years that it's almost laughable. But yet I'm challenged to PROVE the psychological effect. Whatever.

How about you PROVE that ouija does work? And then do it blindfolded. Bet ya can't.

"Skeptics" have their woo too. For "skeptics" their woo is exaggerating the explanatory power of an explanation. Often "skeptics" take a little explanation and then pretend it explains much more than it does. The ideomotor effect simply does not explain the extended coherent conversations ouija board users claim to have experienced. No amount of googling will change that fact.

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This may be along the lines of what you're looking for.

Mirror Neurons

Like it says, mirror neurons are found in areas of the brain of humans, such as the premotor cortex, the part of the brain relevant to the planning, selection and execution of actions. It's a part of the cerebral cortex, where motor actions are performed. Other interesting area where mirror neuron activity is found in humans is the parietal lobe, which is used in sight and manipulation of objects.

Thanks, JO. Yes, mirror neurons are one suggestion that has been given. It's too bad that there is still so much speculation on this subject. Ultimately, the scientific community hasn't even decided if 'mirror neurons' exist. Maybe in a few years they will have a more solid understanding of this function. It may prove to be part of the puzzle, but, it also fails to answer the question why one person's mirror neurons would fire while the other's don't and how that is 'decided' during a Ouija experience. Unfortunately, at best, it has tenuous potential for explaining Ouija.

I found this, and, surprisingly, applying the findings to a 2 person Ouija session would mean that there would be competition between the two for 'control'. From here: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17470910701482205

Our findings suggest that, though observers understand the intentions of others, their ideomotor movements are guided by their own intentions, expressing what they themselves wish to see the other is doing.

Hmm.

I wish that I could. But I honestly can't explain it. The thing clearly does spell out things. But if multiple people are participating, and only one question is being asked, only one answer can be received. Who's body/spirit energy is the one providing the answer ? Is it the one who asked the question ? Or is it always the one with the domination energy ?

I honestly don't know ?

Fair enough. It seems that it's a lot more complicated than a simple 'ideomotor effect' answer. At the very least, my mind (damn you, mind!) needs to know the hows of this function in relation to a 2 person Ouija experience. But, I'm a pretty determined personality -- I'll just keep on digging. ;)

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I have contacted a number of organizations, asking for specifics on exactly this question - how ideomotor works with more than one person, and hope at least one will get back to me with salient information; when they do, this is the absolute first place I will share it.

You should also ask how the ideomotor effect works across extended sessions and produces coherent long term conversations. I'm sure the answer will be, just as it will most likely be with multiple people, that the "subconscious" somehow maintains the continuity and ad libs. You see it is easy to say with words. The problem is, what this in effect is saying is that we all have this store house of secret knowledge we can at will release via our subconscious, and not just at will but through extended conversations. This is all simultaneous to our keeping our conscious persona active, remember people in ouija are conscious as well.

This is like saying there are multiple people in all of us. So what do we have as an end result ... we have an ad hoc explanation that is indistinguishable from saying there are distinct entities, especially when you throw in the addition of "well, we all have knowledge we don't know we have", which covers those inexplicable answers. :) Sorry, it amazes how convenient the whole explanation becomes. Of course, this is a hallmark of an ad hoc explanation. Sounds like woo to me. ;)

Thanks for your efforts. I would like to hear the response as well. Also, feel free to invite them into the discussion if any would be interested.

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This is all simultaneous to our keeping our conscious persona active, remember people in ouija are conscious as well.

This is like saying there are multiple people in all of us.

The way our brain does things consciously and subliminally at the same time is not like there are multiple people in us.

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Seen these posts far too often. Here's a tip: DO NOT USE IT. It's stupid, what do you want to gain from it? You're messing with something that you shouldn't even touch. Tell your wife no.

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The way our brain does things consciously and subliminally at the same time is not like there are multiple people in us.

Your being vague with the "does things" part ... if the result is a rational, coherent extended conversation how is this different?

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Cool

1) If you go blindfolded does the same messages appear?

2) If i bring you a board written Arabic or in a language that you don't know with symbols randomly placed all over the board we will get the same message?

3) Are you accusing Parker brothers that they sell evil spirits(potentially harmful) for 20$ on kids?

1. No. Never. It just goes around and stops randomly. That's why I have always believed that the user(s) not spirits are controlling the answers.

2. No. I never tried that but I'm sure that it wouldn't.

3. No. Seeing as how a person can make one on their own if they wanted to, Parker Brothers just massed produced a model and started selling it for profit.

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Cool

1) If you go blindfolded does the same messages appear?

2) If i bring you a board written Arabic or in a language that you don't know with symbols randomly placed all over the board we will get the same message?

3) Are you accusing Parker brothers that they sell evil spirits(potentially harmful) for 20$ on kids?

Unfortunately, these questions are not structured well enough to come to a clear conclusion based on the answer.

1. I haven't tried, but if my answer was no, it could be easily stated by someone who believes it's spirits, that they require the use of physical eyes to see the board -- and, that could not be refuted because, well, we can't even verify the existence of ghosts, nevermind their nature and abilities.

2. No. Reason given by the spirit supporters' theory? Not all spirits speak all languages -- and again, how can you refute that unless you begin to attribute abilities to ghosts, which would mean you would have to acknowledge their existence in the first place. ;)

3. Irrelevant.

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Sorry that you misunderstand. I'm not asking you to PROVE anything. As you say, the ideometer effect has been scientifically proven. I am asking how it applies to 2 people's simultaneous use of Ouija and asking for references to what you are stating in this thread. You state, and believe, that one person 'drives' and one 'rides. I am asking for reference because I have found nothing in my research on the ideometer effect that explains the effect in relation to two people's physiology. If you can't post references to support this idea, I would suggest that it's just your opinion and not based on any solid science.

I don't understand why it's such a hard concept to grasp. Perhaps no one has studied it because there's no need to do so because it's that obvious.

Once the planchette starts to move through idiomotor effect, are the other participants going to stop it or simply go along with the movement? In most cases they would go along with it, would they not? After all, you wouldn't want to go against the wishes of the spirits, would you? When it does happen, I would argue that's when you get the inconclusive results like in the P&T BS episode when the three "witches" (i.e. board ouija marketers) stop the planchette on the blank spaces on the board.

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"Skeptics" have their woo too. For "skeptics" their woo is exaggerating the explanatory power of an explanation. Often "skeptics" take a little explanation and then pretend it explains much more than it does. The ideomotor effect simply does not explain the extended coherent conversations ouija board users claim to have experienced. No amount of googling will change that fact.

Yes, it's called science.

So a "claim" is now a "fact". Got it.

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I don't understand why it's such a hard concept to grasp. Perhaps no one has studied it because there's no need to do so because it's that obvious.

Once the planchette starts to move through idiomotor effect, are the other participants going to stop it or simply go along with the movement? In most cases they would go along with it, would they not? After all, you wouldn't want to go against the wishes of the spirits, would you?

Possibly because it's not true? And yes, someone has studied it, and apparently the scientific study disagrees with you: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17470910701482205

Our findings suggest that, though observers understand the intentions of others, their ideomotor movements are guided by their own intentions, expressing what they themselves wish to see the other is doing.

That damn science....

Edited by Layna
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Very interesting thread here, I've used the ouija board a few times and have had varying experiences with it...probably most could be explained by the ideomotor effect...but not all of them. There is IMO something more to this that science can't explain. There's so much in the ordinary world that science can't explain, like most UFO/ghosts/bigfoot etc sightings are honest mistakes and hoaxes, but not all of them are paper plates/camera flukes/men in gorilla suits. Anyone who's had any personal experience with the paranormal knows that science just hasn't got there yet. I just think that some people are more sensitive to these experiences, and the ouija board for whatever reason seems to amplify that. If you go in as a total skeptic it probably won't "work", likewise if you go in as a hardcore believer it's not only going to work, but it's going to blow your mind. The board may help align an ability or something that a certain person already has, and although the ouija board is a convenient medium, for people who are more sensitive to these types of experiences the board isn't necessary, they'll have experiences regardless. Remember Ghostbusters? Egon said "it's not the girl Peter, it's the building" maybe it was the girl after all ;)

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Haha. This post is still going strong. You know, there is a post somewhere I read a while back on the internet. Some guy was researching ouija boards and its association with the ideomotor effect. In one of his experiments, he blindfolded about 4 "psychics" and created several boards and switched them around while the "psychics" were blindfolded. They got like 90 something percent of the answers correct and even got coherent sentences spelled out while blindfolded. He has the paperwork somewhere on the internet. I have to go dig it up. There were many experiments done with the ouija board and these "psychics". After the blindfold test still gave coherent sentences and words the man concluded that "We will probably have to wait for science to figure out this one". Lol.. Just like true skeptic. He wouldn't admit to any outside influences (ghost, etc..) although he did a controlled experiment in a controlled setting. He would rather wait for science to somehow rationalize it for him than to accept the possibility of outside forces. I will find that research article and post it here later..

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Haha. This post is still going strong. You know, there is a post somewhere I read a while back on the internet. Some guy was researching ouija boards and its association with the ideomotor effect. In one of his experiments, he blindfolded about 4 "psychics" and created several boards and switched them around while the "psychics" were blindfolded. They got like 90 something percent of the answers correct and even got coherent sentences spelled out while blindfolded. He has the paperwork somewhere on the internet. I have to go dig it up. There were many experiments done with the ouija board and these "psychics". After the blindfold test still gave coherent sentences and words the man concluded that "We will probably have to wait for science to figure out this one". Lol.. Just like true skeptic. He wouldn't admit to any outside influences (ghost, etc..) although he did a controlled experiment in a controlled setting. He would rather wait for science to somehow rationalize it for him than to accept the possibility of outside forces. I will find that research article and post it here later..

wow that's interesting, if you do come across this study please share with us :)

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Talk about skeptical. 90% accuracy? I could push the thing myself, NOT blindfolded, and answer questions, and not hit 90% accuracy. But I would be very interested to see this article and this person's research/evidence/reports. And even if that is the case, his final position was responsible: let science figure this one out. He did his controlled experiment, it allegedly performed past any possible mundane explanation. So then the nature of what DID make that happen is the next step to be examined. You don't just plug in your favorite pet hypothesis and call it good.

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Talk about skeptical. 90% accuracy? I could push the thing myself, NOT blindfolded, and answer questions, and not hit 90% accuracy. But I would be very interested to see this article and this person's research/evidence/reports. And even if that is the case, his final position was responsible: let science figure this one out. He did his controlled experiment, it allegedly performed past any possible mundane explanation. So then the nature of what DID make that happen is the next step to be examined. You don't just plug in your favorite pet hypothesis and call it good.

Great post, Paranormalcy, and one that I wholeheartedly agree with. I am not satisfied with the 'ideomotor effect' theory in relation to Ouija based on my personal experience. BUT, that doesn't mean I'm ready to [insert spirit/demon here]. It just makes me more determined to search out a solution that is more fitting to my experience.

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Just to clarify. Ideomotor effect and the Ouija board are not linked.

William Carpenter, the creator of the term ideomotor effect (Carpenter effect at the time), would most certainly disagree. Seeing as how he created the term to explain the means by which the Ouija board and user produced their results.

So whether you agree with his studies or not, you can't truthfully say the two are not linked.

Edited by Jerry Only
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William Carpenter, the creator of the term ideomotor effect (Carpenter effect at the time), would most certainly disagree. Seeing as how he created the term to explain the means by which the Ouija board and user produced their results.

So whether you agree with his studies or not, you can't truthfully say the two are not linked.

Yes i can. From experience. thanks anyway.

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I don't understand why it's such a hard concept to grasp. Perhaps no one has studied it because there's no need to do so because it's that obvious.

The ideomotor effect by definition assumes the actions are subconscious. Skeptics seem to forget this sometimes. So I don't at all see how it is so obvious.

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William Carpenter, the creator of the term ideomotor effect (Carpenter effect at the time), would most certainly disagree. Seeing as how he created the term to explain the means by which the Ouija board and user produced their results.

To be honest, this is a good reason to be skeptical about the ideomotor effect IMO. Instead of independent lines of evidence leading to a scientific theory(a theory of ideomotor), we have a term and concept being created to explain a specific unexplained phenomenon.

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Don't open yourself up to that, no good can come of it. Your wife is apparently educated enough in the subject that she wants no part of it. How about you read some stories about the ouija gone wrong and after you read those stories of people tormented for years, evil attaching itself to you, and people being never quite right again after using one, then if you're still intrested God help you. I have read many ouija accounts and one thing seems to appear in all of them, no good experience has come out of this "game". Please respect your wife and forget about it.

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Yes i can. From experience. thanks anyway.

You completely missed my point.

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To be honest, this is a good reason to be skeptical about the ideomotor effect IMO. Instead of independent lines of evidence leading to a scientific theory(a theory of ideomotor), we have a term and concept being created to explain a specific unexplained phenomenon.

Also a good point.

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