Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 4
granpa

norse giants. Sons of Ymir

62 posts in this topic

According to wikipedia we have the following giants of norse mythology:

Ymir (Aurgelmir) - gravel yeller

Hvergelmir - cauldrin roaring

Þrúðgelmir - strength yeller

Hymir

Mímir

Bergelmir - mountain yeller

It is perfectly clear to me that 'mir' means 'more' not 'yeller'.

I also think aurgel might mean 'argue'.

I have no idea what hy, mi, or just plain y mean and google translate chokes completely on it.

I was hoping someone who knows the norse language could help me understand this better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to wikipedia we have the following giants of norse mythology:

Ymir (Aurgelmir) - gravel yeller

Hvergelmir - cauldrin roaring

Þrúðgelmir - strength yeller

Hymir

Mímir

Bergelmir - mountain yeller

It is perfectly clear to me that 'mir' means 'more' not 'yeller'.

I also think aurgel might mean 'argue'.

I have no idea what hy, mi, or just plain y mean and google translate chokes completely on it.

I was hoping someone who knows the norse language could help me understand this better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir

You could start with the posting the sources that made you come to this conclusion.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

When it comes to mythology or anything for that matter..I certainly would not rely on wikipedia as a "reliable" source nor would I rely on it as my only source.

You are better off going to sites that specialize in Norse mythology. Just use a search engine and you'll find plenty of sources that are far more reliable than wikipedia.

Edited by Ryu
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to wikipedia we have the following giants of norse mythology:

Ymir (Aurgelmir) - gravel yeller

Hvergelmir - cauldrin roaring

Þrúðgelmir - strength yeller

Hymir

Mímir

Bergelmir - mountain yeller

It is perfectly clear to me that 'mir' means 'more' not 'yeller'.

I also think aurgel might mean 'argue'.

I have no idea what hy, mi, or just plain y mean and google translate chokes completely on it.

I was hoping someone who knows the norse language could help me understand this better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir

Better find someone that speaks Old Norse (not Norwegian, which is probably why Google translate didn't work). I don't know if anyone on this website will be able to give you an accurate translation or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Better find someone that speaks Old Norse (not Norwegian, which is probably why Google translate didn't work). I don't know if anyone on this website will be able to give you an accurate translation or not.

You might find the following useful, a translation of the Poetic Edda in English with the other in Old Norse. They both make mention of some of the giants.

English

Old Norse

I am no expert on Old Norse language but I think Bergelmir may come from the Old Norse Bergrisi meaning Hill Giant.

Also the suffix mir may stem from the word Hilmir meaning Chief.

Again I am no expert on the subject so don't quote it as fact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But in Germanic MIR would be ME.

From Middle High German, from Old High German mir (“me”), from Proto-Germanic *miz (“me”), from Proto-Indo-European *(e)me-, *(e)me-n- (“me”). Cognate with Old English mē (“me”). More at me

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mir

or:

Etymology 2From Middle High German mir (“we”). Of obscure origin. Perhaps ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *mes, *me- (“we”), related to Lithuanian mẽs (“we”), Latvian mēs (“we”), Russian мы (my, “we”), Old Armenian մեք (mekh, “we”).

Slavic langugages give MIR as peace, World.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

But in Germanic MIR would be ME.

From Middle High German, from Old High German mir (“me”), from Proto-Germanic *miz (“me”), from Proto-Indo-European *(e)me-, *(e)me-n- (“me”). Cognate with Old English mē (“me”). More at me

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mir

or:

Etymology 2From Middle High German mir (“we”). Of obscure origin. Perhaps ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *mes, *me- (“we”), related to Lithuanian mẽs (“we”), Latvian mēs (“we”), Russian мы (my, “we”), Old Armenian մեք (mekh, “we”).

Slavic langugages give MIR as peace, World.

That is only the etymology of the modern word "mir" in German, which is related to but not the same as Old Norse. Both languages evolved from a Proto-Germanic language but they occupy a different branch, Old Norse is North Germanic and High German is a Western Germanic language. Therefore it would be better to compare the word "mir" to other North Germanic languages first as there will be more chance of finding a link.

Below is a list of some Germanic words for "Me".

North Germanic languages

Norwegian: Me = Meg

Swedish: Me = Mig

Danish: Me = Mig

West Germanic languages

German: Me = Mir

Dutch: Me = Me

English: Me = Me

Anglo-Saxon*: Me = Mec

*Anglo-Saxon is much closer to Old Norse than of the other West German languages.

The modern German word for "Me" may look more like the North Germanic versions but it is pronounced completely different. The North Germanic words shown above are all pronounced like MY, while the first part of the German word sounds like ME.

Edited by grendals_bane

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

any connection between mir-world and heimr-home?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/home

Word Origin & History

home

O.E. ham "dwelling, house, estate, village," from P.Gmc. *khaim- (cf. O.Fris. hem "home, village," O.N. heimr "residence, world," heima "home," Ger. heim "home," Goth. haims "village"), from PIE base *kei- "to lie, settle down" (cf. Gk. kome, Lith. kaimas "village;" O.C.S. semija "domestic servants").

Edited by granpa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But in Germanic MIR would be ME.

From Middle High German, from Old High German mir (“me”), from Proto-Germanic *miz (“me”), from Proto-Indo-European *(e)me-, *(e)me-n- (“me”). Cognate with Old English mē (“me”). More at me

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mir

or:

Etymology 2From Middle High German mir (“we”). Of obscure origin. Perhaps ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *mes, *me- (“we”), related to Lithuanian mẽs (“we”), Latvian mēs (“we”), Russian мы (my, “we”), Old Armenian մեք (mekh, “we”).

Slavic langugages give MIR as peace, World.

True, root “mir” used to designate the existence, the being, then it gradually became “peace”, but the old meaning is kept in the word “svemir” (universe): sve (all)+mir(that is).

And numerous Slavic names like Zvonimir, Damir, Slavomir etc. still carry the old meaning mir=being, though people today often mistake it for mir=peace. It’s not for example Damir “peace giver” but “existence giver”. (“da” from “dati”, “davati”, “daje” = to give, giving, gives). Or Slavomir (slava=glory, mir=existence, he who exists in glory or he who creates the glory). Etc, etc :D

If it is the same root word from which Norse “mir” comes, by the Slavic linguistic logic, each “something-mir” would be something-giver or something-existing... like Bergelmir – he who is the mountain or he who exists like mountain or even who makes mountains exist.

(Note for those who watch too many lawyering shows: This was just my take on the whole thing, don’t molest me with "show me the link" routine. I'm the source regarding my own mother's tongue, I'm here for a talk, not for a trial, take my two linguistic cents or leave it, K? :D )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's interesting Helen, thanks for adding your 2 cents. :tu:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/home

Word Origin & History

home

O.E. ham "dwelling, house, estate, village," from P.Gmc. *khaim- (cf. O.Fris. hem "home, village," O.N. heimr "residence, world," heima "home," Ger. heim "home," Goth. haims "village"), from PIE base *kei- "to lie, settle down" (cf. Gk. kome, Lith. kaimas "village;" O.C.S. semija "domestic servants").

Heimr, if it was hei-mir might mean - he-being or existance..world, maybe like Wralda in the OLB. Maybe..? if hei means he or something like it.

In Scots it does, otherwise it's mostly comparable to heath(land).

Scots[edit] Pronoun hei

1.(South Scots, personal) he

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hei

Wralda, who I identify in Sami culture as Waralden Olmai is alot like this imo.

Raedie, Väraldarade or Waralden Olmai - The main god, the great creator of the world; he was, however, passive, some say even sleeping, and not very included in active religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_shamanism

He is the creator but also the world. I note heim as well as heimr, maybe the r sound just dropped off after a while and lost the earlier 2 syllable sound - hei-mir to heimr to heim.

Just thinking.

Edited by The Puzzler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=here

hi-mir = this world (this place)?

seems like it should be dwelling-place.

I think it seems like it's the actual being, 'that is', which is also the place, the World, Wralda, the World Creator, around us - abode, world, land.

Old Norse[edit] EtymologyAn accusative form of heimr (abode, world, land).

[edit] Adverb heim

1.home, homewards

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/heim

True, root mir used to designate the existence, the being, then it gradually became peace, but the old meaning is kept in the word svemir (universe): sve (all)+mir(that is).

That's just my opinion though, on the relationship I know of between the Creator being the actual World itself.

Edited by The Puzzler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone said we should invite someone who speaks Old Norse.

Well, I am not the one, but I have access to an Old Norse dictionary (in German):

i-mir rim-i, an., sw. M. (n): nhd. Erdrücken = to crush, to overwhelm

i-mÆrh hrÆm-i, an., sw. M. (n): nhd. Rauhreif = hoarfrost

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altnordischeswoerterbuch/altnordisch-ruecklaeufig.pdf

You are all thinking about the MIR part of the frost-giants' names, but maybe you should look into IMIR, not MIR.

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone said we should invite someone who speaks Old Norse.

Well, I am not the one, but I have access to an Old Norse dictionary (in German):

i-mir rim-i, an., sw. M. (n): nhd. Erdrücken = to crush, to overwhelm

i-mÆrh hrÆm-i, an., sw. M. (n): nhd. Rauhreif = hoarfrost

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altnordischeswoerterbuch/altnordisch-ruecklaeufig.pdf

You are all thinking about the MIR part of the frost-giants' names, but maybe you should look into IMIR, not MIR.

.

So this is all just a mir misunderstanding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone said we should invite someone who speaks Old Norse.

Well, I am not the one, but I have access to an Old Norse dictionary (in German):

i-mir rim-i, an., sw. M. (n): nhd. Erdrücken = to crush, to overwhelm

i-mÆrh hrÆm-i, an., sw. M. (n): nhd. Rauhreif = hoarfrost

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altnordischeswoerterbuch/altnordisch-ruecklaeufig.pdf

You are all thinking about the MIR part of the frost-giants' names, but maybe you should look into IMIR, not MIR.

.

Analysis of different Indo-European tales indicate the Proto-Indo-Europeans believed there were two progenitors of mankind: *Manu- ("Man"; Indic Manu; Germanic Mannus) and *Yemo- ("Twin"), his twin brother. The latter, like Ymir, was sacrificed and carved up by his brother to produce mankind.[1]

Traces of this dualistic structure of (also) the Proto-Indo-European creation myth can be found in parallel mythological entities with the same etymology, like the Indic death deity Yama and Avestan Yima, progenitors of mankind; of Remus (according to Jaan Puhvel), the brother of Romulus in the story of the founding of Rome, and Ymir. The underlying Proto-Indo-European form is *yemo ("twin"). The corresponding Proto-Germanic form was either *umijaz or, in better accordance with this theory, *jumijaz (W. Meid).

Yama shares with Ymir the characteristics of being primordial and mortal, but otherwise developed towards a very different character, the first of mortal men and kings who after death becomes ruler of the realm of the dead.

Here it is also worth noting that amongst the actual speakers of Old Icelandic, as opposed to reconstructed ProtoIndo-European,the name Ymir meant, not "twin", but "noisemaker,roarer, bellower".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir

I think the twin thing sounds pretty logical myself, even though I'm a bit adverse to PIE words, ying/yang - Apollo/Artemis, all twins everywhere when describing everything, duality.

It also seems to me these stories actually come from a LONG time ago, maybe the end of the ice age down to 6 or 7000BC, when the landforms of the area would have 'defrosted' somewhat and new land would have been created. Eitr is obviously Greek 'ether', the airy substance.

According to these poems, in the beginning there was nothing except for the ice of Niflheim, to the north, and the fire of Muspelheim, to the south. Between them was a yawning gap called Ginnungagap and there a few pieces of ice melted by a few sparks of fire created a moisture called eitr, the liquid substance of life. Ymir was the first to be conceived as drops of eitr joined together and formed a giant of rime frost (a hrimthurs) and sparks from Muspelheim brought him to life. While Ymir slept, the sweat under his arms became two more giants, one male and one female, and one of his legs mated with the other to create a third, a son Þrúðgelmir. These were the forebearers of the family of frost giants or jutuns. They were nursed by the cow giant Auðumbla who, like Ymir, was created from the melting ice in Ginnungagap. Auðumbla herself fed on a block of salty ice, and her licking sculpted it into the shape of a man who became Búri, the ancestor of the gods (Æsir) and the grandfather of Odin.[2][3]

Buri fathered Borr, and Borr fathered three sons, the gods Vili, Vé, and Odin. These brothers killed the giant Ymir, and unleashed a vast flood from Ymir's blood killing all the frost giants but the son of Þrúðgelmir, Bergelmir, and Bergelmir's wife who all took safety in a hollow tree. Odin and his brothers used Ymir's lifeless body to create the universe. They carried it to the center of Ginnungagap and there they ground his flesh into dirt. The maggots that appeared in his flesh became the dwarves that live under the earth. His bones became the mountains, his teeth rocks and pebbles. Odin strewed Ymir's brains into the sky to create the clouds, and took sparks and embers from Muspelheim for the sun, moon and stars. The gods placed four dwarves—Norðri (North), Suðri (South), Austri (East), and Vestri (West)—to hold up Ymir's skull and create the heavens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, that's what Wiki says about the meaning of the name Ymir.

But I am talking about the syllable MIR at the end of the other names. And I think we should look to IMIR/IMAERH as origin of that syllable.

("to crush, to overwhelm / hoarfrost".. makes you think of giants and frost, right?

Frost giants?)

No doubt it got shortened to MIR.

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought Mimir was a god...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought Mimir was a god...

Mimir or Mímr ("day-dreamer" or "ponderer" in Old Norse, also abbreviated to 'Mim') is in Norse mythology the name of a giant or Jotun, the custodian of the well of wisdom in Jotunheim. Although he is not a deity and stays as a guest in Vanaheim, he is sometimes considered to be one of the Aesir to whom he is closely connected. From Odin he demanded to sacrifice his eye in return for drinking from the well of wisdom, and from Heimdal he demanded an ear. In this way Mimir acquired 'clear seeing' and 'clear hearing'.

Dependent on the sources Mimir is classed amongst the Aesir and the Jötun-giants, or even amongst the Dwarves. As a person he rarely shows up in the Edda songs, but he does in references to his well and his head.

(Btw: I translated this from the Dutch Wiki on Mimir; the English Wiki wasn't very clear about whether Mimir is a god/deity or not.

Dutch Wiki )

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mimir or Mímr ("day-dreamer" or "ponderer" in Old Norse, also abbreviated to 'Mim') is in Norse mythology the name of a giant or Jotun, the custodian of the well of wisdom in Jotunheim. Although he is not a deity and stays as a guest in Vanaheim, he is sometimes considered to be one of the Aesir to whom he is closely connected. From Odin he demanded to sacrifice his eye in return for drinking from the well of wisdom, and from Heimdal he demanded an ear. In this way Mimir acquired 'clear seeing' and 'clear hearing'.

Dependent on the sources Mimir is classed amongst the Aesir and the Jötun-giants, or even amongst the Dwarves. As a person he rarely shows up in the Edda songs, but he does in references to his well and his head.

(Btw: I translated this from the Dutch Wiki on Mimir; the English Wiki wasn't very clear about whether Mimir is a god/deity or not.

Dutch Wiki )

.

thanks Abe ... Mimir is very under rated ... of all the stuff i read none really gave Mimir much of a mention, so much so i had to google to remind myself where. Such a shame, i like Mimir ... i would lean towards him being a Dwarf, a court jester companion of sorts to Odin. Being non deity and not a giant would justify his presence in the books dedicated only the main core myths. Surely the researchers wouldn't miss an anecdote like that.

i'll even gladly offer any of the deities my vocal chords myself if it will also allows me 'all speaking' along with seeing and hearing'

with a mouse and a keyboard ... i'm practically a god myself :lol:

some might even say better since some thinks there are gods that don't hear so well

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It never ends...

Tuisto, Tvastar & Ymir

Connections have been proposed between the 1st century figure of Tuisto and the hermaphroditic primeval being Ymir in later Norse mythology, attested in 13th century sources, based upon etymological and functional similarity.[11] Meyer (1907) sees the connection as so strong, that he considers the two to be identical.[12] Lindow (2001), while mindful of the possible semantic connection between Tuisto and Ymir, notes an essential functional difference: while Ymir is portrayed as an "essentially … negative figure" - Tuisto is described as being "celebrated" (celebrant) by the early Germanic peoples in song, with Tacitus reporting nothing negative about Tuisto.[13]

Jacob (2005) attempts to establish a genealogical relationship between Tuisto and Ymir based on etymology and a comparison with (post-)Vedic Indian mythology: as Tvastr, through his daughter Saranyū and her husband Vivaswān, is said to have been the grandfather of the twins Yama and Yami, so Jacob argues that the Germanic Tuisto (assuming a connection with Tvastr) must originally have been the grandfather of Ymir (cognate to Yama). Incidentally, Indian mythology also places Manu (cognate to Germanic Mannus), the Vedic progenitor of mankind, as a son of Vivaswān, thus making him the brother of Yama/Ymir

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuisto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been recently considering a connection between Hymir and Mithra. (Mihr)

http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Mithra

Mithra (Miθra), (Persian, مِهر، میترا or میثره) is the Avestan language name of the Zoroastrian divinity (yazata) of covenant and oath.

In addition to being the divinity of contracts, Mithra is also a judicial figure, an all-seeing protector of Truth, and the guardian of cattle, the harvest and of The Waters. In Middle Iranian languages (Middle Persian, Parthian etc.), 'Mithra' became 'Mehr', 'Myhr' etc., from which New Persian and Armenian Mihr ultimately derive.

With the Vedic common noun mitra, the Avestan common noun miθra derives from proto-Indo-Iranian *mitra, from the root mi- "to bind", with the "tool suffix" -tra- "causing to." Thus, etymologically mitra/miθra means "that which causes binding", preserved in the Avestan word for "covenant, contract, oath".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 4

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.