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THE MATRIX

Why the Anti-Science Creationist Movement Is

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A phrase most famously used by Supreme Court Justice Black in the case of Everson v. Board of Education. In discussing the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, Justice Black said that the clause erected a "wall of separation between church and state." He explained that this means, among other things, that the government cannot participate in the affairs of a religious group, set up a church, aid or prefer one religion over another, or aid or prefer religion over nonreligion.

http://www.nolo.com/dictionary/separation-of-church-and-state-term.html

Well, as I see it the church participates a heck of a lot in governmental affairs.

Should the church be tax exempt?

As an interesting aside to the main topic (and my apologies to Magicjax for doing so), but has any religion or church in the US been taken to court for breaching the Establishment Clause?

Because a wall, as described by Justice Black, is a two-way obstacle and not a one-way mirror.

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I believe that historically speaking, one of the big factors that ushered in the Dark Ages in Europe was the ascendancy of religion over science. The very name, Dark Ages, says a lot about that historic period, which lasted several hundred years. Thousands & thousands of people, mostly women of all ages, were burned or drowned for being witches, people were persecuted because their religious beliefs differed from that of the crown & the Pope. So, yes, creationism, if it becomes institutionalized, has the potential to be a very destructive force, especially if it disallows differing points of view.

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It is annoying to see someone try to minimize the problem this way. It has nothing to do with Jesus or religious beliefs. It has to do with willful ignorance and trying to take us back to the dark ages. You can be religious, be a christian, and still understand evolution.

And my point is that it happens on both sides of the political aisle, but yet when the Right gets religious, it's considered dangerous.

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The big difference is with the exception of a few, the Democrats do not make God an integral part of their election platform.

Oh really?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/14/obama-using-cross-flyer-i_n_101788.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/at-prayer-breakfast-obama-says-christian-faith-guides-his-policies/2012/02/02/gIQAzNyakQ_story.html

"Obama, speaking to 3,000 people at the Washington Hilton, used passages from the Bible to make the case that his push for a more equitable economy is rooted in a long-honored value system. And he suggested that his proposal to increase taxes on wealthier Americans is consistent with the teachings of Jesus."

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/pelosi-says-she-has-duty-pursue-policies-keeping-values-jesus-word-made-flesh

"House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) says she believes she must pursue public policies "in keeping with the values" of Jesus Christ, "The Word made Flesh."

http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/01/times-and-seasons-2009-mormon-of-the-year-harry-reid/

Now I'll concede that this isn't 'every' Democrat - just the leadership of the party.

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It's not about what one believes. Irrespective of one's belief, creationism has no solid ground in science and hence should not be studied in science/biology class. On the other hand, it can (and should) be studied as part of theology / history etc class.

this

I think you can believe in creationism and still believe in science, technology and climate change. God gave us a brain, did he not expect us to use it.

and this

I do not think it matters what some nutter group is trying to accomplish. Even if they did manage to somehow overwhelm common sense fossils will still keep coming out of the ground.

The fossil record baby, you cannot deny it. I can crack and creationist over the head with a transitional fossil and ask, what's all this then? No amount of mumbo jumbo can equal the direct proof for evolution, although many stick their heads in the sand, the proof is overwhelming. It can even be observed in mitochondrial DNA. No matter how many books they burn, people have brains, and after the silliness settles down, someone will build another microscope and we will be off and away yet again on the path of truth.

and this.

I think it has to do with ego. Some people just cannot admit they don't understand something. So they pretend. That they are debating something. It's really clear pretty fast. That they have no idea what they are talking about. But you can't explain it to them. Doubting evolution is like "not drinking the kool aid" to them. They also feel the same way about global warming. So basically any science they don't understand. And can't be bothered to learn. Is a conspiracy theory to them. LOL

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I believe in teaching the basics of science to a child ...

So far I have begun to teach my daughter about how the universe began and what happened after it.. How long ago, how old the earth is and so on

He is getting the hang of it... But then said to me - "Mommy, I cannot tell this to my teacher, because my teacher tells us God did it and it is in the bible..."

I told her I understood ..so we agreed to teach it all at home... I guess sometimes a parent has to ..especially if their child attends a Christian school that will push creation... Where live it is hard not to see a Christian school for children...

I'll explain why she has to attend a Christian school... Firstly she is a member of the Seagoe Church.. But in saying that, when you go to apply for a primary school in your area, you are told to pick up to 6 primary school within 10 miles of your home...( for convenience I guess).. So you nominate 6 primary schools ...And you will notice that when you look through the long list of primary school in the county where you live, they are either Catholic or Protestant primary school..... You may well find one inter graded school , but usually those positions are quickly filled ..So you re left with Hobsons choice and hope to get one that is close enough to home for convenience ...Living in N.Ireland it is mostly based on Christianity

When the child is ready for high school, things change...They are then allowed to study physics and learn more.. There is no restrictions

I want my daughter to at least know the basics.. but unfortunately due to how the teachers in her primary school lay heavy on creationism.. we have to keep it a secret and just teach Evolution at home

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These days, however, I considered that the proponents may actually have considered a Noah's Ark type of scenario, and to my sheer horror...I was not able to entirely dismiss the possibility.

I can guarantee you 100% that such an Ark idea is not being considered by any major religious group in the U.S. There's absolutely no Biblical reason for that to be a consideration.

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I stopped looking for reason in Biblical decisions a long time ago. I find that people who have come to a hard decision regarding what God wants them to do do not care about logic in any respect, be it logical secular arguments, or logical biblical arguments.

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Lol, when you use your brain you realize where the notion of god comes from and why theists are theists (non logical thought processes). You don't believe in science, science is not a fairy tale, science is based on facts, a fact is real weather you believe in it or not.

If you use your brain and read a little you would realize the beleif in a spirit world and subsequently a divine great spirit is perfectly logical. Human beings have all of history of spiritual experiences to draw from. You may not agree with the nature of those experiences, but they happen. I see this all the time. NDEs, OBEs, and other experiential phenomenon Happen and will continue to happen. Beliefs in spirit come from these experiences. It's not some logical fallacy.

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I'm considering the the idea of an informed energy that permeates the universe as opposed to a more humanistic god, and that perhaps quantum physics with its ideas of a multiverse, etc. may eventually be able to explain these "mystical" experiences. Maybe science just doesn't have all the information it needs right now to do so.

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If you use your brain and read a little you would realize the beleif in a spirit world and subsequently a divine great spirit is perfectly logical. Human beings have all of history of spiritual experiences to draw from. You may not agree with the nature of those experiences, but they happen. I see this all the time. NDEs, OBEs, and other experiential phenomenon Happen and will continue to happen. Beliefs in spirit come from these experiences. It's not some logical fallacy.

Yeah, but it really goes back to not understanding how things work. Even with NDEs which are obviously some kind of natural neurological phenomenon. Truthfully, it makes sense to me. We all know that our brain will lie to us if it cannot understand the information it is receiving or if it receives conflicting signals. The signaling during general anesthesia administration, which causes the most reported cases of NDEs is seriously messed up, which is why it works. Your brain is trying to do what it does, take in signals and extrapolate information and responses, but it cannot understand the signals. Some earlier anesthetics were really dangerous because people would just stop breathing or the body was unable to maintain a constant body temperature because it was not receiving the proper signals for an appropriate response. We know when you are dying that ion concentration regulation starts to fail, especially Ca2+, and all neuronal signals are dependent on proper ion concentrations and Ca2+ controls the release of neurotransmitters. OBEs could also have something to do with misfiring of neurons. If you notice they usually happen to certain people over and over again.

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I think you can believe in creationism and still believe in science, technology and climate change. God gave us a brain, did he not expect us to use it.

This got me thinking about how the only people who seem to endorse ignorance are the very people who stand to gain (money, power, etc) from the ignorance of others.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, but it really goes back to not understanding how things work. Even with NDEs which are obviously some kind of natural neurological phenomenon. Truthfully, it makes sense to me. We all know that our brain will lie to us if it cannot understand the information it is receiving or if it receives conflicting signals. The signaling during general anesthesia administration, which causes the most reported cases of NDEs is seriously messed up, which is why it works. Your brain is trying to do what it does, take in signals and extrapolate information and responses, but it cannot understand the signals. Some earlier anesthetics were really dangerous because people would just stop breathing or the body was unable to maintain a constant body temperature because it was not receiving the proper signals for an appropriate response. We know when you are dying that ion concentration regulation starts to fail, especially Ca2+, and all neuronal signals are dependent on proper ion concentrations and Ca2+ controls the release of neurotransmitters. OBEs could also have something to do with misfiring of neurons. If you notice they usually happen to certain people over and over again.

I'm not arguing what an OBE or NDE is. The point is that beleif in the spirit is not a logical fallacy. When you find yourself floating above your body what whatching doctors do stuff to you, then you have a life review and meet dear old deceased grandpa that tells you to go back. It would seem a very logical conclusion that an after life exists. The only reason you wouldnt is if you are already faithful to the materilist paradime. Furthermore when you tell people that trust you and know you are not a liar, they might start to accept the same conclusion. No amount of unprooven scientific conjecture and jargon can trump the experience. You say well now we know better, but not everyone does, nor does everyone that knows agrees. there is nothing illogical, creative, or wishful about it. It is what it is reguardless of how you want to define it. The materialist paradime ends at certain boundaries. This means that all of reality is built on unknowns.

Edited by Seeker79

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I used to "believe" in evolution. Science and probability changed my mind. The invention of the electron microscope has shown us how infinitely complex the world is. The belief that organic compounds can randomly organize into complex, self-aware creatures is statistically improbable.

The next generation of electron microscopes will reveal an even greater complexity. The deeper we go, the less probable the "randomness" becomes.

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I used to "believe" in evolution. Science and probability changed my mind. The invention of the electron microscope has shown us how infinitely complex the world is. The belief that organic compounds can randomly organize into complex, self-aware creatures is statistically improbable.

The next generation of electron microscopes will reveal an even greater complexity. The deeper we go, the less probable the "randomness" becomes.

Well, it is funny how those same electron microscopes provide more and more evidence to evolution every day. I guess you must understand what you are looking at.

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**This topic is about how the anti-science movement presents a danger. We do not need to rehash the atheism/theism or Cre vs. Evo arguments here.**

**Back on topic.**

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**This topic is about how the anti-science movement presents a danger. We do not need to rehash the atheism/theism or Cre vs. Evo arguments here.**

**Back on topic.**

The topic is: Why the Anti-Science Creationist Movement Is So Dangerous.

I assumed that Science and Creationism would be included in the discussion.

I apologize if I misunderstood.

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You did misunderstand. The topic is not about your personal beliefs regarding the validity of either. It is about how those beliefs create (or do not create) a danger.

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You did misunderstand. The topic is not about your personal beliefs regarding the validity of either. It is about how those beliefs create (or do not create) a danger.

(Okay, I stand corrected. I appreciate your diligence in keeping a good discussion on topic.)

Scientists and Theologians are often unfairly and unjustly pigeonholed into accepting and promoting only certain beliefs. Both groups have a history of disfellowshipping anyone who disagrees with a popular theory or doctrine.

Those of us who ARE NOT Scientists or Theologians also experience this when we refuse to swear blind allegiance to either camp.

Herein lies the danger (as per the topic): A scientist wearing blinders is just as dangerous, in my opinion, as the theologian wearing blinders.

The use of electron microscopes should have opened up new possibilities for reseachers, rather than further pigeonholing them into an increasingly improbable theory. Now that's dangerous.

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I used to "believe" in evolution. Science and probability changed my mind. The invention of the electron microscope has shown us how infinitely complex the world is. The belief that organic compounds can randomly organize into complex, self-aware creatures is statistically improbable.

The next generation of electron microscopes will reveal an even greater complexity. The deeper we go, the less probable the "randomness" becomes.

Whoops Aquatus. And here I was just about to describe to this poster how evolution is not random.

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(Okay, I stand corrected. I appreciate your diligence in keeping a good discussion on topic.)

Scientists and Theologians are often unfairly and unjustly pigeonholed into accepting and promoting only certain beliefs. Both groups have a history of disfellowshipping anyone who disagrees with a popular theory or doctrine.

Those of us who ARE NOT Scientists or Theologians also experience this when we refuse to swear blind allegiance to either camp.

Herein lies the danger (as per the topic): A scientist wearing blinders is just as dangerous, in my opinion, as the theologian wearing blinders.

The use of electron microscopes should have opened up new possibilities for reseachers, rather than further pigeonholing them into an increasingly improbable theory. Now that's dangerous.

Electron microscopes did open up new possibilities for researchers, but they have to follow the evidence where it leads, no matter how much you dislike it or do not understand it. Not following the evidence would be dangerous and would have stunted our medical knowledge.

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I think you can believe in creationism and still believe in science, technology and climate change. God gave us a brain, did he not expect us to use it.

I think that creatures evovle and change over time as people do. In the case of animals it may be related to changes in the climate,food supply,etc. But when I see the varities of flowers, the beautiful butterflies, a lovely view and such, I can't help thinking about God, and the wonders He has created.Some one had to design these creatures, humanity and plants.

That's why i don't belive in the Big Bang Theory.

God gave mankind science,which we use to try to understand the universe, to come up with things to help heal the sick,etc. Right here in San Antonio,Tx,they are doing trials at UTSA Health Science Center,invovling plants.They have discovered that some substance from i think the news said the cork tree, kills prostrate cancer cells.

Try MySA.com, WOAI, KSAT 12 and KENS 5.I know they ran the story on WOAI this morning while I was getting dressed for work.

Science and religion can walk hand and hand, but it's the extremeists on both sides who twist things.

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God gave mankind science,which we use to try to understand the universe, to come up with things to help heal the sick,etc.
Science is what man has formed based on observation and experimentation. If you're going to credit God for man's work, then it's only fair he too gets blame for the harm.

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Science is what man has formed based on observation and experimentation. If you're going to credit God for man's work, then it's only fair he too gets blame for the harm.

I've been trying to say that for along time.

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For those of you with an open mind...http://crossexamined.org/turek-hitchens-debate.asp

I wouldn't dream of trying to convince anyone of the validity of Creationism. But this guy can...and does and is successful at it. Google him and ponder some of his questions. Or just ignore him because he doesn't believe the same as you... oh wait, that's what the people in the OP are being accused of... Dr Frank Turek

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