Ancient Aliens: Facts and Fiction

[LRW]

Hello Lightning Roar Winds and Welcome to the UM.

Didnt see you before.

Didnt understand everything you said it. But imagine if plasma life form exist where that puts our sun?

heck there must be an amazing variety of sentient life out there, sometimes it almost feels as if the earth itself and its beautiful habitat is alive and has a concious, and when its angry you can hear and see its wrath such as winds and earthquakes, volcanoes etc.

sometimes it just feels like its angry about something.

organic intelligent life like homo sapien sometimes follows this pattern this blue print throughout the universes.

ever see 5 sided pentagram star and what it suggests

1 head your conciousness

2 arms that you use to manipulate your environment

2 legs that ground you to your environment

almost like a human shape isn't it with arms stretched out

also note the head as being top of the star

then look at this

almost like a similar shape to a human outstretched and the 5 sided pentagram

maybe the intelligent organic sentient beings follow this shape

thats why in star trek they all look humanoid lol

star beings

[hortie]

heck there must be an amazing variety of sentient life out there, sometimes it almost feels as if the earth itself and its beautiful habitat is alive and has a concious, and when its angry you can hear and see its wrath such as winds and earthquakes, volcanoes etc.

sometimes it just feels like its angry about something.

Your

Absolutely right. There's religions with these beliefs. Look up the documentary, the secret life of plants and you will see evidence of such. I have a friend who had a cool little theory. The earth like any organism that we know of, has a wanting to live on, to mate,, to continue. Why would the earth be different, it's goal is to move on to the next world,"earth" could be using us humans as its seeds to move on. That's why it gives us all it's resources and let's us suck it dry, for the aspiration to procreate.

Edited November 12, 2011 by hortie

[Abramelin]

< skip >

also note the head as being top of the star

then look at this

almost like a similar shape to a human outstretched and the 5 sided pentagram

maybe the intelligent organic sentient beings follow this shape

thats why in star trek they all look humanoid lol

star beings

I hope you DO know that those rays are an effect of the camera (lenses) used?

I case you want to know: I worked for Eastman Kodak for like 10 years (in the Netherlands).

And after customers recieved their photos, we got the most stupid questions from 'customer support', like "Hey Rob, this guy wants to know why XXX YYY"

You won't believe how many times customers asked why all they saw on their photos was their big nose.

As though we could explain how stupid people can be.

Well, I tried on the phone with some customer, but that talk was rather short, lol.

It's my idea that people in general underachieve. They look for easy ways out, cheap tricks, simple stories, and they simply resist to look for something that makes them use their brains.

I do sometimes wake up with a headache - true - but not because I used my brains too much.

And even then I can argue with idio..uhhmmm.. people with 'alternative views on reality and life as we know it'.

.

.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Abramelin

[LRW]

Your

Absolutely right. There's religions with these beliefs. Look up the documentary, the secret life of plants and you will see evidence of such. I have a friend who had a cool little theory. The earth like any organism that we know of, has a wanting to live on, to mate,, to continue. Why would the earth be different, it's goal is to move on to the next world,"earth" could be using us humans as its seeds to move on. That's why it gives us all it's resources and let's us suck it dry, for the aspiration to procreate.

indeed the old religons of the world placed a great importance on the protection of the earth and the species that inhabits it and connects its roots to it.

Unfortunately in modern times people have degenerated and lost that old religon of the earth, the trees, the plants etc.

they also have lost the purest ancient knowledge of biology, medicine and science.

now people are arrogant, abusive and generally don't care about nature so they degrade it.

[Leonardo]

Unfortunately in modern times people have degenerated...*snip*

People in 'modern times' have not 'degenerated'. You might have noticed, in recent decades, that modern science has made a lot more people more aware of how our actions effect the environment at large. This is called 'knowledge' and it is discovered most often as a result of previously learned 'knowledge'.

Those 'old religions' you trumpet were not progressive and many were resistant to the acquisition of knowledge. Additionally, there is a lot of evidence the world over of ancient cultures/civilisations (who, perhaps not coincidentally, based their society on those 'old religions') collapsing because they over-used, or could not properly manage, the resources that were available to them. So your argument falls somewhat flat.

Our modern civilisation has the opportunity to eventually be the first ever human civilisation on the face of this planet to be able to properly manage it's impact on the environment. While this has not yet been achieved, it will only be possible because of what we have learned of the world and universe around us through the disciplines of science. This opportunity could never have been presented us through adherence to religious ritual or tradition, or by immersing ourselves in mysticism.

As for the 'mystic significance' of the 5 pointed-star. The number 5 is psychologically important to us because we are pentadactyl - we have 5 digits on each hand and foot. So this number - 5 - has a sort of 'sympathetic trigger effect'. We subconsciously consider the number important, or significant, because it is a part of us.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Leonardo

[LRW]

People in 'modern times' have not 'degenerated'. You might have noticed, in recent decades, that modern science has made a lot more people more aware of how our actions effect the environment at large. This is called 'knowledge' and it is discovered most often as a result of previously learned 'knowledge'.

Those 'old religions' you trumpet were not progressive and many were resistant to the acquisition of knowledge. Additionally, there is a lot of evidence the world over of ancient cultures/civilisations (who, perhaps not coincidentally, based their society on those 'old religions') collapsing because they over-used, or could not properly manage, the resources that were available to them. So your argument falls somewhat flat.

Our modern civilisation has the opportunity to eventually be the first ever human civilisation on the face of this planet to be able to properly manage it's impact on the environment. While this has not yet been achieved, it will only be possible because of what we have learned of the world and universe around us through the disciplines of science. This opportunity could never have been presented us through adherence to religious ritual or tradition, or by immersing ourselves in mysticism.

How dare you say that humanity has not degenerated, when humanity has been polluting the environment and the earth for centuries, it is ironic for you to say that modern science(fake science) has made people aware of their actions and the damage it causes to their environment, you will find if anything that modern science (fake science) has created an arrogant ignorance in people that makes them destroy and pollute the environment, toxic emissions, forest decay, ocean decay, natural water decay, river decay and pollution, murder of beautiful wildlife etc, all accomplished through the use of modern science (fake science) that destroys the natural environment through the production of harmful machines some of which are radioactive.

Some of the old religons were a beacon of spiritual empowerment for the whole of humanity, and were a real source of spiritual knowledge, and were mostly an advocate of holism and were highly accomplished systems of a peace and tranquility protection tool for the environment and the organisms inhabitating it.

Some of those old religons gave respect for all life, trees were worshipped as divine lifeforms and rightfully so, unlike modern systems of decay responsible for wholescale slaughter of beautiful rainforests and their amazing variety of life that inhabits the region.

Wildlife was also respected in these old religons, that taught every part of the animal when hunted and killed can be used for a purpose and you should not waste anything, unlike in modern era where sea fishing for sharks fins are cut from their body and they are then thrown back in the ocean half alive and sick.

That is true degradation and corruption.

These ancient adepts of nature and spirituality were executed and their religons destroyed when christianity backed by the roman empire and its allies destroyed these peoples and smeared them by calling them barbarians and wrote lies about them.

Your modern civilisation built around christianity has created more damage and catastrophe on the earth than the religons and the peoples and whole civilisations it destroyed.

You think that this damage can be reversed through the disciplines of the modern science (fake science)system that caused the damage in the first place?

You are surely mistaken if you don't realise that the modern system is terrible.

You then say that the previous tranquility that was there from ancient times designed around an awesome megalithic advanced cultural system and old religons can not improve the situation of pollution?

Even though in those times there was no real pollution, there was beautiful rivers, lakes, habitats and wildlife all pure and unharmed and a beautiful joy to watch.

Your views are disturbing and quite sickening Leonardo.

this is environmental pollution and its disgusting.

this is murder.

this is your system this is your modern science

[Sensible Logic]

indeed the old religons of the world placed a great importance on the protection of the earth and the species that inhabits it and connects its roots to it.

Those must be the old religions no one has ever heard of. Almost all the ones I have seen have some angry deity destroying all land based life with a flood or some other type of catastrophe. Not very protective if you ask me.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Sensible Logic

[LRW]

Those must be the old religions no one has ever heard of. Almost all the ones I have seen have some angry deity destroying all land based life with a flood or some other type of catastrophe. Not very protective if you ask me.

just cause you don't hear of them does not mean that it was not true that such systems existed

the shire from lord of the rings vs lord sauron

beauty and the beast

not very charming now is he

[Leonardo]

How dare you say that humanity has not degenerated...*snip*

Yes, I dare to say so. I would suggest you study actual history to find the truth about 'old religions' and how we, as a species, have been for all of our recorded history - rather than rely on 'new age' myth about some imaginary 'golden age'.

just cause you don't hear of them does not mean that it was not true that such systems existed

the shire from lord of the rings vs lord sauron

Now that I am aware you live in a fantasy world (you do understand that the Lord of the Rings is a novel, and the depictions in it are imaginary - don't you?) I can see there will be no purpose in continuing the discussion. I shall bother you no further.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Leonardo

[kmt_sesh]

Well, it's been quite some time since I have been called "disturbing, sickening, foolish and poisonous". Given the context in which those things were said, I'll take it as a compliment.

I would just ignore it. LRW has been spewing ridicule and derision in almost every thread he's visited. I am sad to see him trying to take part in this particular discussion, which I had hoped would be populated by more cerebral participants, but I have no control over these things. In any case I thank you for your own contributions.

LOL How dare you! I loved that. It's always good to enjoy a chuckle.

I am in agreement with your earlier post. Folks like LRW might have an interest in ancient religions but that doesn't mean they possess any real-world understanding of ancient religions. In Egypt the state collapsed at the end of the Old Kingdom largely because of centuries of ceaseless pyramid building: resources had been taxed beyond the stretching point. No harm to the environment was done, but it shows what a zealous system of religion can do to a country. It took Egypt around 200 years to recover fully.

Perhaps a better environmental example would be ancient inhabitants of North America. It used to be thought some of the large fauna of North America went extinct because early native peoples literally hunted them to death. That idea has been falling by the wayside, but what cannot be questioned is the tremendous amount of waste caused by these people. They would drive whole herds over the edges of cliffs and collect what they could at the bottom. The death toll on these animals usually far surpassed what the people could consume, but it sure was easier. We can't fault them for going at such things in a safer and more expedient way and it isn't really fair in the first place to force our modern values on them, but ancient peoples the world over were guilty of tremendous waste.

[kmt_sesh]

thats just your opinion on egypt you can not know for sure what went on there

I can support my statements with academically credentialed references. Can you?

did you live there ?

no

That is...well...quite completely irrelevant. No, I did not live there. Nor did you. Is that how you define the collection of evidence?

you can only assume just like everybody else, the idea of extraterrestrials in egypt is just as valid as your idea that they were not there

most people haven't a clue as to what went on there cause its ancient times

its all speculation you do not know for sure what went on there

Again, you do not seem to understand how evidence is collected: archaeologically, linguistically, anthropologically, architecturally, et cetera. I wasn't even talking about aliens but about the collapse of the Egyptian state at about 2200 BCE, which marks the end of the Old Kingdom. That collapse is abundantly clear based on extant evidence. Would you care to challenge me on the extant evidence?

As for the presence of aliens, I have no problem making my feelings perfectly clear. I've done so before: No, I absolutely do not believe galactic travelers visited Egypt, nor any other ancient civilization. In the end my feelings don't matter on this issue because only the body of evidence does, and nothing in the body of evidence suggests aliens. At all.

ewwww now you attack one of the most beautiful civilisations of all time the native american culture

one of the most beautiful people of all time murdered and having genocide committed against them

now look at whats in their place

you and leonardos views are sickening

Oh, please, dispense with maudlin attitude. Proper historical study requires knowing and expressing basic facts, and what I wrote earlier is an amply verified basic fact. I have no problem defining the less desirable qualities of ancient civilizations, pharaonic Egypt and Native America included. There is no such thing as Utopia.

Understand that you don't know anything about me personally. You could not know that before I started studying the ancient Near East my passion was post-columbian Native America, especially tribes of the Plains. You could not know that I didn't just study these people but participated in sweat ceremonies and pipe ceremonies with them. I attended each and every powwow anywhere near me and danced with them. I have the highest respect for Native Americans and find their traditions and religions to be particularly beautiful and meaningful. That does not, however, prevent me from defining their ancient history in properly clinical and objective terms.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

There is no such thing as Utopia.

True. In fact I think that word utopia came from greek word which means "no where".

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

True. In fact I think that word utopia came from greek word which means "no where".

"No place" IIRC.

[cormac mac airt]

In Egypt the state collapsed at the end of the Old Kingdom largely because of centuries of ceaseless pyramid building: resources had been taxed beyond the stretching point.

And don't forget the drought c.2160 BC. That didn't exactly help matters either.

Again, you do not seem to understand how evidence is collected: archaeologically, linguistically, anthropologically, architecturally, et cetera. I wasn't even talking about aliens but about the collapse of the Egyptian state at about 2200 BCE, which marks the end of the Old Kingdom.

If you're not careful kmt_sesh, you'll be feeding the OLB thread with that date. And we've got enough quacks already.

ewwww now you attack one of the most beautiful civilisations of all time the native american culture

one of the most beautiful people of all time murdered and having genocide committed against them

Native American's were not much different from the Europeans who moved in on them. They had their good qualities, but they also had their bad ones.

An example, taken from Pendleton’s History of Tazewell County, page 451, states (in part, concerning the raid on the family of Captain James Moore, my 6th Great Grandfather):

Perceiving that John Moore was a boy weak in body and mind, and unable to travel, they killed him the first day. The baby they took two or three days, but it being fretful, on account of a wound it had received, they dashed its brains out against a tree. They then moved on with haste to their towns. For sometime, it was usual to tie, very securely, each of the prisoners at night, and for a warrior to lie beside each of them, with tomahawk in hand, so that in case of pursuit, the prisoners might be speedily dispatched.

Shortly after they reached the towns, Mrs. Moore and her daughter Jane, about 16 years old, were put to death, being burned and tortured at the stake. This lasted sometime, during which time she manifested the utmost christian fortitude, and bore it without a murmur, at intervals conversing with her daughter Polly, and Martha Evans, and expressing great anxiety for the moment to arrive when her soul should wing its way to the bosom of the Saviour. At length an old squaw, more humane than the rest, dispatched her with a tomahawk.

So as much as I admire and respect Native Americans for the beauty of their cultures, the bad aspects of same are on par with those of the Europeans of the time.

cormac

[kmt_sesh]

...

If you're not careful kmt_sesh, you'll be feeding the OLB thread with that date. And we've got enough quacks already.

LOL I was once asked to comment about that date in the OLB thread but there's a reason I almost always avoid it. There's only so much Lego linguistics I can tolerate. Well, okay, my head is stuck in the ancient Near East so ancient Europe is not my forte, but even I can see some of the spectacularly amusing "conclusions" some posters try to reach in OLB.

So as much as I admire and respect Native Americans for the beauty of their cultures, the bad aspects of same are on par with those of the Europeans of the time.

cormac

Careful, cormac, or you'll risk upsetting the common (mis)conception that ancient Native Americans and other ancient societies dwelled in a perfect and wondrous Utopia. Everyone hugged upon meeting everyone else. Backs were slapped and bottles of Coca-Cola were passed around as everyone joined hands around the campfire to sing "Kumbaya."

Don't you just feel the love?

At this point I should probably insert six to ten random and meaningless images of movie stills and pop art, but frankly I am not inclined to do so.

[kmt_sesh]

And don't forget the drought c.2160 BC. That didn't exactly help matters either.

...

I forgot to add that you were right to mention this--which I should've, too. For others reading this, it is a scientifically verified climatic upheaval known as the 4.2 Kilo Year Event that stretched from North Africa, through the Levant and Mesopotamia, and up into the Hindu Kush. The collapse of the economic base--agriculture--would've contributed quite a few unpleasant problems to the overall situation.

But maybe I shouldn't say this at all. It might upset the Utopia idea again.

I've long wondered, cormac, but how do the proponents of the OLB reconcile this widespread drought? Isn't part of the premise that the Great Flood was happening right around then?

It's hard to keep track of the many and varied assumptions and wild speculations fringe fans entertain.

[cormac mac airt]

I forgot to add that you were right to mention this--which I should've, too. For others reading this, it is a scientifically verified climatic upheaval known as the 4.2 Kilo Year Event that stretched from North Africa, through the Levant and Mesopotamia, and up into the Hindu Kush. The collapse of the economic base--agriculture--would've contributed quite a few unpleasant problems to the overall situation.

But maybe I shouldn't say this at all. It might upset the Utopia idea again.

I've long wondered, cormac, but how do the proponents of the OLB reconcile this widespread drought? Isn't part of the premise that the Great Flood was happening right around then?

It's hard to keep track of the many and varied assumptions and wild speculations fringe fans entertain.

Well, a few are still stuck on the linguistics of the book and don't try (for the most part) to validate the non-local claims therein, while one's written and revised his published book but STILL claims everything happened, specifically, in 2200 BC. Contrary to the known facts. Supposedly, the drought is another of those events that happened in 2200 BC.

cormac

Edited November 13, 2011 by cormac mac airt

[kmt_sesh]

Well, a few are still stuck on the linguistics of the book and don't try (for the most part) to validate the non-local claims therein, while one's written and revised his published book but STILL claims everything happened, specifically, in 2200 BC. Contrary to the known facts. Supposedly, the drought is another of those events that happened in 2200 BC.

cormac

Geesh. I'll leave you to deal with it, cormac. You're better equipped to do so than I.

I have no interest in trying to engage the OLB fans in that thread, but I would have to ask them how they can so enthusiastically push their theories when they seem unequipped to deal with all of the critical matters involved?

But, really, I'll leave you to deal with it.

[cormac mac airt]

Geesh. I'll leave you to deal with it, cormac. You're better equipped to do so than I.

I have no interest in trying to engage the OLB fans in that thread, but I would have to ask them how they can so enthusiastically push their theories when they seem unequipped to deal with all of the critical matters involved?

But, really, I'll leave you to deal with it.

That doesn't appear to matter too much as the writer/writers of the OLB were dealing with 'special knowledge'.

You know. The type of evidence that doesn't actually leave a trace of itself.

cormac

[Leonardo]

I would just ignore it. LRW has been spewing ridicule and derision in almost every thread he's visited. I am sad to see him trying to take part in this particular discussion, which I had hoped would be populated by more cerebral participants, but I have no control over these things. In any case I thank you for your own contributions.

LOL How dare you! I loved that. It's always good to enjoy a chuckle.

I am in agreement with your earlier post. Folks like LRW might have an interest in ancient religions but that doesn't mean they possess any real-world understanding of ancient religions. In Egypt the state collapsed at the end of the Old Kingdom largely because of centuries of ceaseless pyramid building: resources had been taxed beyond the stretching point. No harm to the environment was done, but it shows what a zealous system of religion can do to a country. It took Egypt around 200 years to recover fully.

Perhaps a better environmental example would be ancient inhabitants of North America. It used to be thought some of the large fauna of North America went extinct because early native peoples literally hunted them to death. That idea has been falling by the wayside, but what cannot be questioned is the tremendous amount of waste caused by these people. They would drive whole herds over the edges of cliffs and collect what they could at the bottom. The death toll on these animals usually far surpassed what the people could consume, but it sure was easier. We can't fault them for going at such things in a safer and more expedient way and it isn't really fair in the first place to force our modern values on them, but ancient peoples the world over were guilty of tremendous waste.

The catastrophe brought about by the 4.2 Kya drought is a good example of how those ancient cultures were unable to properly manage the natural resources available to them. Other examples of ancient cultures destroying their own environment would be; the Polynesian culture of Easter Island - which denuded the forests and so caused the collapse of their own society; the Garamantes - who drained aquifers under the Sahara to support and grow their society, but then the water started running out. The list goes on and on.

But this is diverging a bit from the thread topic, and my apologies for unwittingly doing that.

With respect the predilection for the belief in 'ancient aliens', I can only echo what many have said here. I would add, however, that it is only since the concept of aliens has entered into our popular culture that this trend has started. In this, we are no less victims of the iconography of our popular culture than were those who preceded us. In previous eras, this belief may have involved giants (as an example) because the concept of aliens, and other worlds, did not exist - but there was a popular belief in giants existing, possibly due to the finding of large fossil bones and their subsequent misidentification.

This habit of projecting our own cultural iconography can be seen in the arguments regarding the artworks previously mentioned. Claims of 'UFOs' in those works are only possible because UFOs are an icon of our popular culture. But what the claimant is forgetting, is that UFOs did not exist as an icon of the culture in which that artwork was created. It is intellectual laziness on the part of the claimant and believer to presume their own cultural iconography onto the past.

[kmt_sesh]

The catastrophe brought about by the 4.2 Kya drought is a good example of how those ancient cultures were unable to properly manage the natural resources available to them. Other examples of ancient cultures destroying their own environment would be; the Polynesian culture of Easter Island - which denuded the forests and so caused the collapse of their own society; the Garamantes - who drained aquifers under the Sahara to support and grow their society, but then the water started running out. The list goes on and on.

But this is diverging a bit from the thread topic, and my apologies for unwittingly doing that.

With respect the predilection for the belief in 'ancient aliens', I can only echo what many have said here. I would add, however, that it is only since the concept of aliens has entered into our popular culture that this trend has started. In this, we are no less victims of the iconography of our popular culture than were those who preceded us. In previous eras, this belief may have involved giants (as an example) because the concept of aliens, and other worlds, did not exist - but there was a popular belief in giants existing, possibly due to the finding of large fossil bones and their subsequent misidentification.

This habit of projecting our own cultural iconography can be seen in the arguments regarding the artworks previously mentioned. Claims of 'UFOs' in those works are only possible because UFOs are an icon of our popular culture. But what the claimant is forgetting, is that UFOs did not exist as an icon of the culture in which that artwork was created. It is intellectual laziness on the part of the claimant and believer to presume their own cultural iconography onto the past.

Your argument about Easter Island is especially good. I should've thought of it. Another is the ancient Lebanese city-state called Byblos, known as Kebny to the Egyptians. Byblos was one of the primary timber suppliers to Near Eastern kingdoms, from Egypt to Mesopotamia. The people of Byblos made a living out of their timber industry, and a good one at that. Yet they deforested themselves in antiquity and left Lebanon much barer. I like to joke that the only surviving tree in Lebanon today is on the state flag.

Your mention of modern cultural beliefs is also apropos. I've argued the same thing myself. Although the literary genre of science fiction is not modern, the idea that aliens visited earth in ancient times and helped to develop our civilizations is indeed quite modern. If people believed such things in the eighteenth or nineteenth centuries, for example, I myself have never seen examples of it. There were very odd ideas in those days, such as pyramid measuring and mother cultures, but not aliens. So I am in agreement with you, Leonardo, and it should be obvious to anyone who can exercise critical thinking: this belief in alien intervention has become popular only as UFO mythology has become popular, and UFO mythology is a modern phenomenon.

[Sensible Logic]

just cause you don't hear of them does not mean that it was not true that such systems existed

the shire from lord of the rings vs lord sauron

If I remember right (I could be wrong), The Lord of the Rings was, at it's core, a fantasy representation of World War II

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

If I remember right (I could be wrong), The Lord of the Rings was, at it's core, a fantasy representation of World War II

I thought it was World War 1, but at any rate although the Shire is depicted as being "better" then what Sauruman turned it into, it was hardly utopian given the whole inter-clan rivalry, and didn't Frodo's mother die in childbirth? At the very least they're a rather ignorant people who labelled Gandalf an official disturber of the peace because had a habit of taking hobbits off for adventures (and was apparently the main dealer of elicit fireworks for the shire).

[Harte]

If I remember right (I could be wrong), The Lord of the Rings was, at it's core, a fantasy representation of World War II

Tolkien denied this (and WW1) but that doesn't mean it's not true.

Harte

[badeskov]

Tolkien denied this (and WW1) but that doesn't mean it's not true.

Harte

I believe that , if anything, it was WW1 as (if memory serves) he started writing his tale in the mid-thirties. On my work and on my phone, so no ability to do any real research before I get home, so please excuse me from going from memory. That said, the story itself would actually rather fit with WW2 in my honest opinion.

Cheers,

Badeskov