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cladking

A Well Supported Theory about Pyramids

799 posts in this topic

6000 gallons is considerably less than one-one hundredth of the amount of water rolling by in a single second in the Nile, at the time only a few hundred meters away.

Harte

Ah yes the Nile...oh so close, yet so far from clean and safe to drink. On the other hand, a static system capable of purifying 6,000 gallons per day while topping off cisterns of potable water would be valuable indeed.

Bet nobody got laid for an idea that didn't exist.

You should get out more...it's easier than you think! ;)

Edited by lilthor

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This was my initial reaction when I seen this as well. However what if the water collection aspect was made after the pyramids were completed and someone thought hmmmm, we can collect this water.

No. They built the water collection devices first just like at Machu Pichu and

probably all the massive megalithic projects. One could come to the conclusion

that the water catchment device was needed to build the structures. Of course if

the catchment was needed to build then it would be impossible to plug them up with

ramps.

Note that on G2 they even removed stone to create this device and removing this

stone would have made building ramps much more difficult. One is forced to the

conclusion that catching water was necessary and there were no ramps.

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Ah yes the Nile...oh so close, yet so far from clean and safe to drink. On the other hand, a static system capable of purifying 6,000 gallons per day while topping off cisterns of potable water would be valuable indeed.

Just walking down to the contaminated, warm, and muddy river could be fatal since

it was chock full of crocodiles. These were not only numerous but in those days

there were monsters in there up to about 25' in lenght and could swim at speeds in

excess of 35 MPH. (~45 knots?)

Once you got the water you'd have to carry it for miles and lift it up to 225' if

you were getting it for men working in the pyramid quarry.

The builders were always talking about cool effervescent water like wine that filled

the winding waterways. I might sing its praises too if thee was a choice between

drinking something like sewer water that one risked his life to obtain and worked

hard to move or Perrier that just happened to be right where you needed it in such

large quantities you needed a 770 cubit (1100') catchment device to retain it all.

But, hey, that's just me. Anyone who wanted to forego the cool water and go find

dirty muddy water instead always had the river just a few miles away.

Of course the same thing applies to building pyramids; you could strap on a 2 1/2

ton stone and drag it up a mile of ramps or sit in the shade sipping a tall cool drink

and watching the Gods build it. Again I know which I'd choose.

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No. They built the water collection devices first just like at Machu Pichu and

probably all the massive megalithic projects. One could come to the conclusion

that the water catchment device was needed to build the structures. Of course if

the catchment was needed to build then it would be impossible to plug them up with

ramps.

Note that on G2 they even removed stone to create this device and removing this

stone would have made building ramps much more difficult. One is forced to the

conclusion that catching water was necessary and there were no ramps.

Ancient hydraulics makes much more sense to me than the ramp theory... Good one.

You should get out more...it's easier than you think! ;)

lol

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@cladking,

Please explain something to me as I have not had the time to go and read all your posts on this. A geyser right next to the pyramid base lifting the stones is all well and good for the lower levels of the pyramid, but as the height increases, the distance from the geyser to the level they are working on increases. So how did they transfer the stone from the geyser to the workers at the mid and upper levels?

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I love this theory, really do. Definatly solves the why, why build something so huge and difficult......water. Clean fresh drinkable safe water. However..... Why the shafts inside? Making it more difficult. Water would ruin most the paintings inside. Wouldnt it been easier to Crete some sort of water purification system in the Nile, a blocked off area where crocs couldn't get in, than building huge pyramids?

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@cladking,

Please explain something to me as I have not had the time to go and read all your posts on this. A geyser right next to the pyramid base lifting the stones is all well and good for the lower levels of the pyramid, but as the height increases, the distance from the geyser to the level they are working on increases. So how did they transfer the stone from the geyser to the workers at the mid and upper levels?

Good question.

The water was caught high in the air by a device called the Mehet Weret cow.

The first of these were exceedingly simple but the more complicated ones sim-

ply had an opening in the floor where the water sprayed up through it 80' over

the ground. This device was built just like the pyramid using water filled

counterweights to lift the stone. Building the pyramid and cow weren't espec-

ially difficult but lifting the stone up was a herculean task that was probably

beyond the capability of men.

The cow had a canal that led to the center of the pyramid where it was collected

day and night in a "lake" 80' in the air. This water was channeled to the coun-

terweights.

Now I'm going to simplify it a little because the means to build G1 was actually

more complex which accounts for the internal features. We'll discuss the Red Py-

ramid instead.

This pyramid and almost all the great pyramids (including G1) were actually five

step pyramids. The top of the bottom step is the height to which the water spray-

ed. These had to be built as step pyramids because they had to have a place to put

stones that were being relayed to the top. The stones would arrive aty the top of

the first step in boats containing five or six stones. These would be tranferred

laterally to another boat which was loaded to be lifted the same amount the counter-

weight fell, the height of the geyser. They simply needed to shorten the ropes to

lift it another 3b3w which was the "height of heaven" or the height at which water

was caught in the Mehet Weret cow. By this means they relayed stones all the way

to the top.

With each pyramid there were numerous refinements and improvements which allowed

them to build larger and higher. Altitude times weight of the water was the deter-

mining or limiting factor when the first great pyramid was built but by the time

later pyramids were built there were tremendous improvement and learning that al-

lowed the use of other forces and processes to build far far larger. The biggest

single thing was the 225' cliff adjacent to G1. This cliff was employed to reuse

the water from the counterweights in more counterweights. This is extremely well

evidenced by the water erosion in canals leading to the cliff face. They also used

an 80' platform on the south side to better utilize the work of the cliff face coun-

terweights and to reduce rigging and relaying of the higher stones. The third most

important improvement was the use of the grand gallery to raise water an extra 80'

from the top of the first step to the top of the second step. This allowed 160'

counterweight falls from an 80' platform meaning very few stones needed much rigging

and handling. The western cliff face counterweight pulled stones up to the platform

on the south side. The auxiallary lifters on the south side pulled stone up from the

main quarry but primarily lifted men and supplies. While the primary lifter in the

middle of the south side lifted them up the pyramid. The eastern lifter pulled stone

up that were delivered from the Sphinx Quarry by the eastern cliff face counterweight.

The same equipment that built G1 also built G2 in all probability. The Mehet Weret

Cow simply transferred the water pressure at 80' through conduits and caves to the

(probably) center of G2. The same probably applies to the water from the kings cham-

ber; it was delivered to G2 at 160' worth of pressure.

Cladding was applied from the top down. Stated better it was applied from the bottom

of the top step up and then from the bottom of the fourth step up until they had com-

pleted the structure. They left a narrow band of very hard to place stones at each

level which were likely called a "neck". There's no evidence at all for the name but

the men who filled in this narrow band with stones were probably "Necklace Stringers".

They applied the final stones of the dead king's ka.

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Good question.

The water was caught high in the air by a device called the Mehet Weret cow.

The first of these were exceedingly simple but the more complicated ones sim-

ply had an opening in the floor where the water sprayed up through it 80' over

the ground. This device was built just like the pyramid using water filled

counterweights to lift the stone. Building the pyramid and cow weren't espec-

ially difficult but lifting the stone up was a herculean task that was probably

beyond the capability of men.

The cow had a canal that led to the center of the pyramid where it was collected

day and night in a "lake" 80' in the air. This water was channeled to the coun-

terweights.

Now I'm going to simplify it a little because the means to build G1 was actually

more complex which accounts for the internal features. We'll discuss the Red Py-

ramid instead.

This pyramid and almost all the great pyramids (including G1) were actually five

step pyramids. The top of the bottom step is the height to which the water spray-

ed. These had to be built as step pyramids because they had to have a place to put

stones that were being relayed to the top. The stones would arrive aty the top of

the first step in boats containing five or six stones. These would be tranferred

laterally to another boat which was loaded to be lifted the same amount the counter-

weight fell, the height of the geyser. They simply needed to shorten the ropes to

lift it another 3b3w which was the "height of heaven" or the height at which water

was caught in the Mehet Weret cow. By this means they relayed stones all the way

to the top.

With each pyramid there were numerous refinements and improvements which allowed

them to build larger and higher. Altitude times weight of the water was the deter-

mining or limiting factor when the first great pyramid was built but by the time

later pyramids were built there were tremendous improvement and learning that al-

lowed the use of other forces and processes to build far far larger. The biggest

single thing was the 225' cliff adjacent to G1. This cliff was employed to reuse

the water from the counterweights in more counterweights. This is extremely well

evidenced by the water erosion in canals leading to the cliff face. They also used

an 80' platform on the south side to better utilize the work of the cliff face coun-

terweights and to reduce rigging and relaying of the higher stones. The third most

important improvement was the use of the grand gallery to raise water an extra 80'

from the top of the first step to the top of the second step. This allowed 160'

counterweight falls from an 80' platform meaning very few stones needed much rigging

and handling. The western cliff face counterweight pulled stones up to the platform

on the south side. The auxiallary lifters on the south side pulled stone up from the

main quarry but primarily lifted men and supplies. While the primary lifter in the

middle of the south side lifted them up the pyramid. The eastern lifter pulled stone

up that were delivered from the Sphinx Quarry by the eastern cliff face counterweight.

The same equipment that built G1 also built G2 in all probability. The Mehet Weret

Cow simply transferred the water pressure at 80' through conduits and caves to the

(probably) center of G2. The same probably applies to the water from the kings cham-

ber; it was delivered to G2 at 160' worth of pressure.

Cladding was applied from the top down. Stated better it was applied from the bottom

of the top step up and then from the bottom of the fourth step up until they had com-

pleted the structure. They left a narrow band of very hard to place stones at each

level which were likely called a "neck". There's no evidence at all for the name but

the men who filled in this narrow band with stones were probably "Necklace Stringers".

They applied the final stones of the dead king's ka.

This would crush Ed leedskalnins (coral castle)claim he knew how the Egyptians built the pyramids. Hydraulics is a good idea but is it easy? Seems difficult. I know it seems like magic but definatly antigravity has a case too.

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However..... Why the shafts inside? Making it more difficult. Water would ruin most the paintings inside. Wouldnt it been easier to Crete some sort of water purification system in the Nile, a blocked off area where crocs couldn't get in, than building huge pyramids?

Virtually all the internal features and every attribute can be explained

by the need to lift water from 80' to 160'. Since I can't explain every

single detail at this point I'm not going to try. There are hundreds of

details and the answer to some will require decades of engineers and sci-

ence to determine. They will need scholars to assist them.

Essentially the girdle stones were dams so they could lift water that did-

n't spray high enough in the early phases when huge anmmounts of water were

needed for lifting. The grand gallery was a series of 13 shaddufs that

lifted the water ever higher. The air shafts in the queens chamber were

never needed since the king's chambers shafts proved sufficient to the task

of supplying air to the workmen operating the shaddufs. The air shafts were

also used as a breaking system for the ascenders. It provided a finer con-

trol of the landing spot to have the ropes pick up a weight suspended in

these shafts. The niche probably contained the "ma'at pole" which indicated

the weight in the counterweight relative the ascender. The groove in the

grand gallery was a platform to access the work stations along it.

etc, etc.

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This would crush Ed leedskalnins (coral castle)claim he knew how the Egyptians built the pyramids. Hydraulics is a good idea but is it easy? Seems difficult. I know it seems like magic but definatly antigravity has a case too.

I would love to see this guys water bills.

I don't believe the use of water was very difficult. Yes, it took hundreds

of men working for twenty years to put all that stone in position but it's

got to be easier than dragging them.

I'm not ruling out anything at this point but there's no evidence that gravity

can even be shielded. Yes, in recent years there are indications that in some

situations that anti gravity might be real but all of these save one involve

high tech which the builders of the pyramids and Coral Castle did not and could

not have had.

Ironically the one low tech means of anti gravity was most probably available

to the pyramid builders (not Leedskalins though). I don't believe it was em-

ployed, doubt they could control it, and am not convinced it actually exists.

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Capturing some 6,000 gallons of water every day, while it may seem like a small amount, is really not if that clean water was used to make beer. Drinks with alcohol content have historically been consumed in lieu of water that can go stagnant rather rapidly if left to the open air and not treated or moved regularly. I believe I read somewhere that the workers were actually paid 1-1/2 liters or so of beer ever day along with allottments of bread, fish, and other food stuffs. It has even been proved that there were large communal kitchens at the site with bakeries and breweries.

Regardless of when the pyramids were constructed I can see that water as a seasonally constant supply of water for the beer, which could be brewed in seasonal flavors depending upon the grains. Add to this the bakeries, the fish, and seasonal crops of all kinds with various domesticated animals and wild game. They could have built the site and spent centuries feeding on the plateau and drinking safe, wonderful versions of golden beers.

Personally, I think this could easily have been one of the reasons why the civilization lasted for as long as it did. If all else failed they could always bring the hungry to the plateau where drink was available all year around - and food could be produced in large quantities. I'd celebrate such bounty from the gods.

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So clad I noticed your bringing back the geyser theme. What gives? I thought I saw you advocating alien intervention and that was how they were built. I'm not trying to patronize you simply trying to figure your stance out. So please do not feel insulted as I had hoped we were past that.

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Ah yes the Nile...oh so close, yet so far from clean and safe to drink. On the other hand, a static system capable of purifying 6,000 gallons per day while topping off cisterns of potable water would be valuable indeed.

Yeah, all that industrial pollution upstream from Giza back in 2600's (BC!!!)

You should get out more...it's easier than you think! ;)

You're right about that.

Perhaps I should rephrase that statement! :w00t:

Harte

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Capturing some 6,000 gallons of water every day, while it may seem like a small amount, is really not if that clean water was used to make beer. Drinks with alcohol content have historically been consumed in lieu of water that can go stagnant rather rapidly if left to the open air and not treated or moved regularly.

This is true, and is the real reason for the prevalence of beer and other fermented beverages in the ancient (and not so ancient) past.

Of course, there were drunks around to account for some of it as well, I'm sure.

However, beer made from Nile water would be as safe as any other.

Harte

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So clad I noticed your bringing back the geyser theme. What gives? I thought I saw you advocating alien intervention and that was how they were built. I'm not trying to patronize you simply trying to figure your stance out. So please do not feel insulted as I had hoped we were past that.

It's really very very simple.

In the real world, in the world of the concrete where water is wet and stone

is heavy, in the world where all men actually live, there is almost no chance

at all that any great pyramid was built with ramps. In the dusty ivory towers

of academia it's easy enough to paint a picture of the builders and announce that

they must have dragged stones up ramps but the real world will eventually destroy

the ivory towers and will soon enough obliterate the scholars who make the pronounc-

ements. Nature doesn't care about theories and is never beholden to them. Nature

is not constrained by laws we understand nor ones we don't.

In this real world it might be possible to build 6 1/2 million tons pyramids with

ramps. My bones and guts scream no but I'm not beholden to my bones and guts. It

takes evidence and facts, logic, and common sense and then it's time to revisit my

bones and guts. I've come to believe it is possible albeit stupendously difficult

and at odds with human nature to have used ramps. But the answer is still "NO" be-

cause it's not possible to build with ramps and then leave evidence only for the use

of water. In the real world if you used ramps there would be evidence for ramps not

water.

Of course it's necessary to factor in the extreme paucity of any evidence at all. This

leaves a void that, perhaps, even [shudder] ramps [/shudder] might fit in. I figure

there's about a 3% chance that ramps were used to build any great pyramid. This may

seem high but it's little more than half the probability that aliens built it. There's

a very very high probability that stones moved straight up the side. This really is

"established fact" until someone prooves otherwise. They might have been pried, pushed,

or pulled up but they did move straight up the side. This is about a 90% probability

and should be considered fact at this time. If the Egyptologists are married to ramps

(and they are) then they should get out there and use actual science to determine the

cause of the vertical lines. When they do ramps will evaporate because they will find

I'm right; the stones went straight up the side.

The most logical way that stones went straight up is to have been pulled up. The most

likely way they were pulled up is by counterweights (70%). If they really used water

filled counterweights then there's a very high likelyhood that the water came from CO2

geysers. The actual physical evidence is probably no stronger than about 20% for this

concept but the fact that the builders said there were geysers and the stones were pull-

ed up in boats dramatically increases the probability that this is how it was done.

Me? I don't know anything at all. I trust my guts which seem fairly well educated and

my bones rarely lie to me. They are in agreement that it sure as hell wasn't ramps and

the builders appear to have meant what they said. So I'm throwing my lot in with the

men and women who built this thing. They seem far more real, far more concrete, and

far more human than the picture of barefoot bumpkins painted by the people in the ivory

towers. These people are spinning in their graves. It might have been funny the first

few thousand years but it gets worse every year. How would you like to have terrible

attributes and characteristics assigned to you and then told "not that there's anything

wrong with that"? How would you like your entire life's work and culture painted in so

bleak a light? What would you think of progeny who holds you in such low regard?

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Capturing some 6,000 gallons of water every day, while it may seem like a small amount, is really not if that clean water was used to make beer. Drinks with alcohol content have historically been consumed in lieu of water that can go stagnant rather rapidly if left to the open air and not treated or moved regularly. I believe I read somewhere that the workers were actually paid 1-1/2 liters or so of beer ever day along with allottments of bread, fish, and other food stuffs. It has even been proved that there were large communal kitchens at the site with bakeries and breweries.

Regardless of when the pyramids were constructed I can see that water as a seasonally constant supply of water for the beer, which could be brewed in seasonal flavors depending upon the grains. Add to this the bakeries, the fish, and seasonal crops of all kinds with various domesticated animals and wild game. They could have built the site and spent centuries feeding on the plateau and drinking safe, wonderful versions of golden beers.

Personally, I think this could easily have been one of the reasons why the civilization lasted for as long as it did. If all else failed they could always bring the hungry to the plateau where drink was available all year around - and food could be produced in large quantities. I'd celebrate such bounty from the gods.

Again, they could not get 6,000 gallons per day. This would be a maximum early

in the season when the pyramid was still ice cold and a freak moist warm front

came in from the north. Even this 6000 gallons would not be recoverable because

there was not a great deal of care taken in the leveling of the catchment device.

Large amounts of water would be trapped behind "hills" in the pavement. If it had

been made for this purpose then they would have made the pavement more level. The

lack of levelness in the pavement suggests that they were handling far larger quan-

tities of water and leaving a few thousand gallon trapped was not a problem.

For much of the year there would be no condensation at all. Dew points can be

very low in a desert where the air is very very dry. In order to condense water

the temperature of the pyramid has to be below the dew point.

I believe you're right that there was ample water in the water collection device

most of the year. This was called the Lake of the Year and the amount was recorded

on the Palermo Stone but it did not come from condensation and it did not come from

rain. These contributed to it but most of the water; the water that caused the water

erosion, came up from below.

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Yeah, all that industrial pollution upstream from Giza back in 2600's (BC!!!)

Biological and agricultural pollution can be far more serious than industrial pollution.

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However, beer made from Nile water would be as safe as any other.

I'll take a St Paulis Girl thank you. Sam Adams is fine if you don't have any imports.

However, beer made from Nile water would be as safe as any other.

I'll take a St Paulis Girl thank you. Sam Adams is fine if you don't have any imports.

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Biological and agricultural pollution can be far more serious than industrial pollution.

I wonder what fertilizers and pesticides the AEs used.

After all, that is by far the largest contributor to agricultural pollution.

And brewing and fermentation will kill the e coli from the vast herds of.... what was the animal the Egyptians raised so many of all along the Nile to the south of Giza?

Oh yeah, crocodiles.

Harte

Edited by Harte

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I wonder what fertilizers and pesticides the AEs used.

After all, that is by far the largest contributor to agricultural pollution.

I stand corrected.

I was picturing the spreading of manure etc on the fields but forgot that the

Egyptians used very little of this sort of measure.

The water was still bad especially early in the flood before the river was well

flushed but after a couple weeks it would have mostly just been warm and muddy.

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Well, that crack about crocodiles was pretty funny, even if you're not gonna say so.

harte

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Lmao herds of crocodiles.... domesticated no less that's twice in one day Harte. You better be careful or else people will begin to think you have a sense of humor.

Edited by Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Im freaked out.......... :(

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I would love to see this guys water bills.

I don't believe the use of water was very difficult. Yes, it took hundreds

of men working for twenty years to put all that stone in position but it's

got to be easier than dragging them.

I'm not ruling out anything at this point but there's no evidence that gravity

can even be shielded. Yes, in recent years there are indications that in some

situations that anti gravity might be real but all of these save one involve

high tech which the builders of the pyramids and Coral Castle did not and could

not have had.

Ironically the one low tech means of anti gravity was most probably available

to the pyramid builders (not Leedskalins though). I don't believe it was em-

ployed, doubt they could control it, and am not convinced it actually exists.

Please don't think I, arguing, I open to all ideas and this is better than dragging them up ridiculously large ramps. However if there was a geyser there, just my question now is why, why build them, seems pointless than just leaving a nice geyser there.

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Please don't think I, arguing, I open to all ideas and this is better than dragging them up ridiculously large ramps. However if there was a geyser there, just my question now is why, why build them, seems pointless than just leaving a nice geyser there.

Not to mention you run the risk of getting all the mummy gauze wet.

Quite uncomfortable for a king seeking the afterlife, to have to tromp around in wet wrappings.

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