9/11: The Flight 77 Eyewitnesses

[skyeagle409]

I would usually ignore your pointless stating of the obvious but I have something to say…

Go right ahead and say it.

What about Air America?

What about Air America? I first saw a silvery C-123 in the makings of Air American at Udorn Royal Thai Air Force Base, Thailand decades ago and knew what its mission was, but you still cannot switch airframes between a C-123 either and as I have said, each airframe is unique.

I was tagged in 1970 as a courier to accompany a special aluminum box to Ubon Royal Thai Air Force Base, Thailand from Hill AFB, Utah. I rode aboard a civilian C-130 from HIll AFB to Travis AFB, CA. and then transferred to an Air Force C-141 from Travis AFB to Bangkok, Thailand and from Bangkok, I rode aboard an Air Force C-130 to Ubon.

The Defense department has been using civilian aircraft for support missions and have been doing so for decades. You have to understand the nature of what CIA and DoD missions are all about? My cousin is currently a B-767 captain and has been supporting DoD missions for years and he doesn't support the 9/11 Truthers either.

American Airlines reported the loss of American 11 in New York City, which was confirmed, and American 77 at the Pentagon, which was also confirmed.

After all, publicly they were a 'civilian airline' though were actually covertly owned and operated by the CIA for 26 years in which there was a fluidity of aircraft between themselves and the USAF.

It still doesn't matter who owns the airframes and once again, each airframe is unique whether it is owned by the CIA, the Air Force or privately-owned. You can switch a privately-owned C-130 with a CIA-owned C-130 and it would still take me less than 30 minutes to reveal the switch. You must understand that aircraft of the same models share common parts and equipment and order those parts from the same vendors who keep their own records along with those of the FAA and aircraft manufacturers.

I have been working in the world of aviation for over 40 years to know that there is no way to switch airframes and not detect a switch. Each airframe is unique and there is no way to switch those airframes and not attract attention. As I have said before, I can uncover a switched airframe in 30 minutes or less and I would know exactly what to look for. After all, aircraft airframes and jet engine components were just a few of my specialties in addition to over 40 years as a pilot. In fact, I have developed airframe components and equipment used by the Air Force and defense contractors and I was sent TDY by the Air Force and Raytheon Aerospace to Pensacola, Florida to developed a new repair technical manual for the inlet of the TF-33C jet engine, which is used on the Air Force's C-5 transports.

As a result, I became the first recipient of the combined U.S. Air Force and Raytheon Aerospace 'Civilian of the Quarter' award, 60th EMS, Travis AFB.

When I read from the 9/11 Truthers that the airliners were switched, I simply say that they have no idea what the they are talking about.

Edited April 16, 2012 by skyeagle409

[Czero 101]

* snip *

Nevermind...

Cz

Edited April 16, 2012 by Czero 101

[skyeagle409]

Yes NORAD and FEMA – affiliated in so far as both were under direction of the Bush administrion.

But, what does that have to do with foreign terrorist crashing four airliners on 9/11/2001?

[Q24]

The Defense department has been using civilian aircraft for support missions and have been doing so for decades. You have to understand the nature of what CIA and DoD missions are all about?

Where civilian aircraft are involved in covert CIA and DOD operations, what it is about, is deceiving someone, or other, to give a flight the appearance of something which it really is not. Yes, it has been practiced for decades. These days the possibilities are even greater, with mercenary contractors, private individuals and foreign intelligence more pronounced on the scene.

American Airlines reported the loss of American 11 in New York City, which was confirmed, and American 77 at the Pentagon, which was also confirmed.

You fail to discern the AA statement from newspeak - the former reported loss of the aircraft, the latter inserted the locations in the report. Further apparent, you forever fail to realise this is irrelevant – everyone agrees AA lost two aircraft.

You can switch a privately-owned C-130 with a CIA-owned C-130…

Oh can you now? That is interesting.

… and it would still take me less than 30 minutes to reveal the switch. You must understand that aircraft of the same models share common parts and equipment and order those parts from the same vendors who keep their own records along with those of the FAA and aircraft manufacturers.

You must understand that the switch would occur very shortly before the aircraft destruction, and thereafter component serial numbers were not matched to records. You must understand the FBI have confirmed that no serial number investigation was carried out that would positively confirm identity of the 9/11 aircraft. You must understand that a switch could be confirmed or refuted if you looked in the correct place, but the official investigation declined to do so.

You must understand this basic fact has been explained to you many times and all you do now is repeat false impressions which the most cursory of research will reveal as misinformation. You must understand that your argument (argument, not position) has no credibility with anyone on these boards.

[skyeagle409]

Where civilian aircraft are involved in covert CIA and DOD operations, what it is about, is deceiving someone, or other, to give a flight the appearance of something which it really is not. Yes, it has been practiced for decades. These days the possibilities are even greater, with mercenary contractors, private individuals and foreign intelligence more pronounced on the scene.

The keywords that I have been using were American Airlnes and United Airlines. There was no way to modify the airframes of American 11, American 77, United 93, and Umited 175 and not set off alarm bells. In other words, those airframes are excluded from DoD and CIA operations because they were regularly scheduled airliners whose maintenance histories are logged in computer systems across the country. The Air America aircraft I saw were bright and shiny with the Air America logo on the side of the fuselage. All a person had to do to understand that Air America had nothing to do as a scheduled airline was to simply check its aircraft maintenance record and flight log. Southern Air, Trans America, and Saturn, also used the C-130, but they were known as L-100s.

It is no secret that there have been civilian airframes of the C-130 and even the the C-141, which is designated as the L-300. The problem for the 9/11 Truther is, claiming that the airframes of the airliners involved in the 9/11 attacks were somehow modified by the U.S. government and what I am saying that there was no way that could have been done with those airframes and not draw attention. Their recorded flight, servicing, and maintenance histories will sum it all up. If an aircraft was grounded for a length of time, its service history will reflect the grounding. Airlines make money when their aircraft are flying, not sitting on the ground.

You fail to discern the AA statement from newspeak - the former reported loss of the aircraft, the latter inserted the locations in the report. Further apparent, you forever fail to realise this is irrelevant – everyone agrees AA lost two aircraft.

And it is very important that everyone agrees that American Airlines lost two aircraft, American 11 and American 77, and it is just a matter of examining their flight and maintenance histories.

We can also log in on records regarding landing and gate fees, taxes paid, fuel, oil, and other servicing cost associated with those airframes to track their locations in addition to time and dates of their scheduled maintenance checks and engine replacements and I might add that jet engines have their own serial numbers, maintenance, and replacement histories as well, so it wouldn't take very much of an investigation to confirm that neither of those aircraft were modified by the U.S. government for the purpose of flying them under remote control. Rememeber, American Airlines has inspectors as well.

Oh can you now? That is interesting.

Yes indeed because as I have said; "You can switch a privately-owned C-130 with a CIA-owned C-130 and it would still take me less than 30 minutes to reveal the switch." Not difficult for me at all and neither for highly experienced aviation and insurance investigators.

You must understand that the switch would occur very shortly before the aircraft destruction, and thereafter component serial numbers were not matched to records.

The black boxes would identify the aircraft and any examination of certain engine parts could also identify the aircraft they were attached. So what you are implying is that the aircraft were switched in flight. Am I correct? You still have to acount for the original airframes, engines, APUs, passengers and crew of American 11 and American 77.

Another question, how would you get a replacement aircraft above FL 180 without attracting attention? Remember, even a non-working transponder will not make an aircraft invisible to radar and any unidentified bogie trying to enter airspace above FL 180 without a workng transponder will attract attention from ground controllers.

... You must understand the FBI have confirmed that no serial number investigation was carried out that would positively confirm identity of the 9/11 aircraft.

Were any black boxes recovered? Only a certain number of those aircraft models were built and even in the absence of serial numbers, it wouldn't have taken much to deterimine which aircraft were involved in the 9/11 attacks. It is just a simple matter of calling upon the process of elimination.

You must understand that a switch could be confirmed or refuted if you looked in the correct place, but the official investigation declined to do so.

There was really no need to do so. Where are you going to get two B-767 airframes to switch with? Remember, only a certain number of the B-767-200 models were built and they are not stealthy by any means and could very well be tracked back to their initial takeoff locations even without transponders. Trying to get a B-767 into controlled airspace for a switch without a working transponder has its own set of problems. We flew 67 children last Saturday at McClellan airfield in Sacramento, California, and one of the things we had to be extra carefull for was to avoid the controlled airspaces around Sacramento International airport and Sacramento Executive airport. You do not dare attempt to enter controlled airspace without a working transponder or do so without authorization.

People think at a swtch could have been easily performed, but there are ways that such a switch could have been easily revealed.

You must understand this basic fact has been explained to you many times and all you do now is repeat false impressions which the most cursory of research will reveal as misinformation. You must understand that your argument (argument, not position) has no credibility with anyone on these boards.

I have been in aviation long enough to know what is disinformation and what is fact and I have visited P4T as well and noticed that they have been posting false and misleading information, which I have brought to the attention of other commercial, military, and private pilots, some who were surprised and unaware that there were people claiming aircraft were switched in flgiht. I was going to have Babe Ruth fly here and talk with those pilots personally and explain to them his position.

Needless to say, he would have gotten an earful from those pilots as well. They were not angry, just surprised!

Edited April 16, 2012 by skyeagle409

[Q24]

The black boxes would identify the aircraft and any examination of certain engine parts could also identify the aircraft they were attached.

THE ENGINE PARTS WERE NOT EXAMINED TO IDENTIFY THEIR ORIGIN.

THE NTSB REPORT DID NOT PROVIDE BLACK BOX SERIAL NUMBER.

Once you get that through your head we can talk about the rest.

[skyeagle409]

THE ENGINE PARTS WERE NOT EXAMINED TO IDENTIFY THEIR ORIGIN.

The engines didn't have to be examined for identification purposes or to determine their origin, but enough was already visible to confirm that the engines were Rolls-Royce engines used on the B-757. There are B-757s that also use Pratt and Whitneys, but what was found at the Pentagon were not Pratt and Whitney engines, but as I have said, were Rolls-Royce engines and American Airlines used such engines on its B-757s. There are many ways to identify an aircraft, two of which are radar data and communication transcripts and I might add that FDR information also summed it.

American 77 Flight Profile

THE NTSB REPORT DID NOT PROVIDE BLACK BOX SERIAL NUMBER.

They didn't have to in that case either. Black boxes are unique only to the aircraft they are installed and if they wanted to do things the hard way, all they had to do was to use the process of elimination and check with American Airlines, the FAA, and the Boeing aircraft company. If they wanted further information, all they had to do was to contact L3 Communications, one of the contractors other than Raytheon Aerospace and two other defense contractors that I have worked for over the years.

In addition:

American 77: The Collision

At about 9:38 AM, a twin-engine jetliner flew into the Pentagon and exploded, according to numerous eyewitnesses on the ground. The NTSB places the time of impact of Flight 77 into the Pentagon at 9:37:45. A Minnesota National Guard C-130 that had just taken off from nearby Andrews Air Force Base followed the jetliner in the seconds before it crashed. The pilot of the C-130, who described the plane as either a 757 or 767, provided the following account.

It was like coming up to an intersection. When air traffic control asked me if we had him in sight, I told him that was an understatement - by then, he had pretty much filled our windscreen. Then he made a pretty aggressive turn so he was moving right in front of us, a mile and a half, two miles away.

...

They told us to turn and follow that aircraft - in 20-plus years of flying, I've never been asked to do something like that. With all of the East Coast haze, I had a hard time picking him out. The next thing I saw was the fireball. It was huge. I told Washington the airplane has impacted the ground. Shook everyone up pretty good. I told them the approximate location was close to the Potomac. I figured he'd had some in-flight emergency and was trying to get back on the ground to Washington National. Suddenly, I could see the outline of the Pentagon.

It was horrible. I told Washington this thing has impacted the west side of the Pentagon.

My link

My link

A more recent investigation of American 77, dated: January 2011, reconfirmed that the aircraft, which struck the Pentagon, was in fact American 77.

Once you get that through your head we can talk about the rest.

Go right ahead and I will reveal a few more things that you were unaware of. As I have said before, it has been more than 10 years and yet, not one piece of evidence has surfaced that proved a government conspiracy in regards to the 9/11 attacks.

You would expect in a country with many nosy reporters looking for a sensational story that will further their careers, they would have uncovered a 9/11 government conspiracy by now, especally after more than 10 years since the attacks.

Edited April 18, 2012 by skyeagle409

[Q24]

… examination of certain engine parts could also identify the aircraft…

THE ENGINE PARTS WERE NOT EXAMINED TO IDENTIFY THEIR ORIGIN.

The engines didn't have to be examined for identification…

The black boxes would identify the aircraft…

THE NTSB REPORT DID NOT PROVIDE BLACK BOX SERIAL NUMBER.

They didn't have to in that case either.

Exactly, the aircraft that impacted the Pentagon has never been identified.

There is no point referencing an unidentified Rolls Royce engine or unsourced black box data.

Here, if you want to make yourself useful, tell us what this part is and how we track down the serial number…

[booNyzarC]

Here, if you want to make yourself useful, tell us what this part is and how we track down the serial number…

An American Airlines mechanic identifies the part with serial number on the Pentagon lawn: (photo source: "Pentagon 9/11" http://911files.info/77/pentagon_911_book/)

"The part in question is the power supply for the emergency lights. ...I assure you it was Flight 77, AA 757 5BP."

Source

[Babe Ruth]

The government story cannot be proved.

It can be accepted as an act of faith, but it cannot be proved.

If it could, the parts and pieces supposedly hidden away in Iron Mountain would have been produced and documented years ago. Instead they remain hidden from public view and inspection, all under the excuse of "national security", the same excuse that was used fraudulently way back in the 50's in the Reynolds case.

Faith is when you believe something that you know ain't true...

[booNyzarC]

Keep up the empty and meaningless propaganda BR. You're bound to convince someone that you're right at some point.

[Babe Ruth]

Boo, the people who are curious will investigate on their own, and probably already have, 10 years after.

Those in denial will not.

It ain't rocket science, just human behavior, which is quite predictable once a pattern is established.

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything--just throwing my 2 cents into the public dialogue.

[booNyzarC]

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything

That's good, because you aren't likely to sway any opinions with the way that you ramble on using nothing of substance about aspects of 911 trutherisms which have been long ago debunked.

[Q24]

Source

Did you just offer the assurances of a JREFer?

Is there any way to tie the S/N to Flight 77?

[Babe Ruth]

That's good, because you aren't likely to sway any opinions with the way that you ramble on using nothing of substance about aspects of 911 trutherisms which have been long ago debunked.

Words of wisdom, coming from a man with a fetish for the hangman's noose....

[skyeagle409]

Exactly, the aircraft that impacted the Pentagon has never been identified.

Yes it was identified by its owner and operator, American Airlines.

There is no point referencing an unidentified Rolls Royce engine or unsourced black box data.

Why not?

Edited April 19, 2012 by skyeagle409

[skyeagle409]

Boo, the people who are curious will investigate on their own, and probably already have, 10 years after.

Those in denial will not.

It ain't rocket science, just human behavior, which is quite predictable once a pattern is established.

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything--just throwing my 2 cents into the public dialogue.

Since American Airlines confirmed the loss of American 77 at the Pentagon, why are you trying to point to another airframe other than American Airlines Flt 77?

[booNyzarC]

Did you just offer the assurances of a JREFer?

All I did was share a quote and a link to its source.

Is there any way to tie the S/N to Flight 77?

It looks to me like it has been identified. Of course, you don't believe it because you apparently have a bias toward the "JREFer" who provided the confirmation. Maybe you should contact Boeing or American Airlines to see if you can get an answer from what you consider to be a more reliable source.

Of course if they confirm it you may feel inclined to say that the source records they were referring to were fabricated, changed, or manipulated by one of the super agents who also reprogrammed the FDR and remotely piloted the drone... Such is often the way of the conspiratorial mind.

You really should put that incredible imagination to beneficial use and write some novels. I'd buy a copy.

[Q24]

It looks to me like it has been identified. Of course, you don't believe it because you apparently have a bias toward the "JREFer" who provided the confirmation. Maybe you should contact Boeing or American Airlines to see if you can get an answer from what you consider to be a more reliable source.

Well it’s been identified as a emergency light power supply… don’t all 757s have those?

It’s nothing personal against that JREFer – the whole site is a stinking cesspit of pseudo-skepticism.

Ok I take it the part has never been identified as coming from Flight 77.

Thank you for the confirmation.

[RaptorBites]

Ok I take it the part has never been identified as coming from Flight 77.

Thank you for the confirmation.

I don't see how you can just sit there and state the it has never been identified as being part of Flight 77. I am sure the AA mechanic was able to find a way to match the serial number as belonging to the airframe of AA77.

Unless of course you are disregarding the fact that Sky has been spouting off for the past couple months that each part placed on an airframe is cataloged in detail. "EACH PART"

That would assume that each part has a individual serial number to track which piece belongs to which airframe, not to be mistaken with part numbers.

Edited April 19, 2012 by RaptorBites

[Q24]

I don't see how you can just sit there and state the it has never been identified as being part of Flight 77. I am sure the AA mechanic was able to find a way to match the serial number as belonging to the airframe of AA77.

Unless of course you are disregarding the fact that Sky has been spouting off for the past couple months that each part placed on an airframe is cataloged in detail. "EACH PART"

That would assume that each part has a individual serial number to track which piece belongs to which airframe, not to be mistaken with part numbers.

I’m glad that you are “sure” but I don’t do assumption – that is the type of double-standard/pseudo-skepticism I mentioned in my last post.

I don’t even read most of skyeagle’s posts that miss the point 99.99% of the time.

Where is the log/record that connects that part serial number (144B/8) to Flight 77?

[Wandering]

Painting an airliner leaves a long paper trail that can be easily tracked *snipped broken record*

So Sky, hypothetically I'm an extremely rich man. I buy an old 757 from some PMCs for cash under the table.

I then go down to the local paint store and buy some paint with cash.

I then proceed to paint the plane.

What long paper trail have I left?

Your reliance on everyone to play by the rules whilst carrying out a 'terrorist attack' is stupendous. Some of the ideas you suggest as counters to our argument beggar belief.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Wandering

[Wandering]

Since American Airlines confirmed the loss of American 77 at the Pentagon, why are you trying to point to another airframe other than American Airlines Flt 77?

When there is a car accident in our country, we do not wait for Toyota/Ford/Holden/Nissan/etc to release a press statement stating they have lost a car.

The investigators take down the details ie: serial numbers of the car during the course of their investigation into what went wrong. Even if it was caused by a person. That way they have the details of that car on record and it can never ever be confused with another aircraft.

I believe you still have not answered my earlier questions Sky.

How do they know they are listening to the correct black box Sky? They would check the serial number.

How would they store the black box & confirm they have stored the correct one in the correct box? By serial number.

They are not just going to look at it and go...."Well, I think that's the one from Flight 77 but I can't be ****ed checking It's serial number. Just chuck it up on the table here and we'll have a listen."

They just decided not to do it eh?

[Wandering]

I don't see how you can just sit there and state the it has never been identified as being part of Flight 77. I am sure the AA mechanic was able to find a way to match the serial number as belonging to the airframe of AA77.

Unless of course you are disregarding the fact that Sky has been spouting off for the past couple months that each part placed on an airframe is cataloged in detail. "EACH PART"

That would assume that each part has a individual serial number to track which piece belongs to which airframe, not to be mistaken with part numbers.

Wow, a little Skyeagle. (this is not a good thing RB)

Please RaptorBites do not focus on Skys argument. It is full of so many holes, lies and naivety even the 'Official Story Adherents' will back away from his statements regularly.

Yes, each part is cataloged in detail. I don't believe anyone has ever denied that.

The problem is, no serial numbers or identifying marks were ever taken and compared with the 'individual parts serial numbers' from flight 77.

Can you see the Dilemma?

It doesn't matter how many parts had identifying marks on them, if they were never identified as belonging to Flight 77 after the crash.

[booNyzarC]

Well it’s been identified as a emergency light power supply… don’t all 757s have those?

It’s nothing personal against that JREFer – the whole site is a stinking cesspit of pseudo-skepticism.

Ok I take it the part has never been identified as coming from Flight 77.

Thank you for the confirmation.

Actually it has been identified as coming from Flight 77. You just don't accept the source of that identification.

I can understand why you are skeptical of the source, but that doesn't make the source wrong. All it means is that the source hasn't provided adequate references which substantiate the identification to your satisfaction.

I don't know anything about AMTMAN myself. He appears to have represented himself as an airline mechanic. Mark Roberts appears to accept him at his word, and in my opinion Mark Roberts is not only an excellent judge of character but he is also one of (if not THE) most knowledgeable people on the planet when it comes to 911 facts. I wouldn't be surprised if you have a different opinion of the man though.

At any rate, the offer still stands. Feel free to contact Boeing and/or American Airlines for direct confirmation. Something tells me that you probably won't do that though.