Why I, as an Atheist, still celebrate Xmas

[Michelle]

Well said, keith...

Being in the restaurant business for so many years I always said Merry Christmas. If someone happened to be Jewish they would sometimes respond with, "And a Happy Hanukkah to you." I always said thank you and we both laughed...that was it. I don't think anyone was ever offended and if they were they certainly didn't say anything.

It may be in the way I say it too, because I really mean it and don't throw it around automatically like a robot. I gauge whether people look accepting of the spirit in which it's meant. My jolly old self tends to rub off on people any time of year though.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Michelle

[willowdreams]

That's a nice ending to a call, I don't think anyone could complain against you. Especially in Sales where you are dealing with customers and you need them to be on side with you in order to turn a profit (aka, keep your job). I'm not really talking about a marketing/retail position though. In this job you need to keep the needs of the customer (or prospective customer) at the forefront. The same does not apply to real life. As I said, I'm happy with giving the standard greeting according to the culture I live in, and won't bow to the idea of "Happy Holidays" just to avoid a minority who may get angry.

If I were still in the Retail industry, I may say different within that context, of course

~ PA

it is the same, my job on the phone is the real world. these people on the phone are real people, teachers of our children. heck in some ways they have the kids more then parents do so they are basically helping to raise the future of our world.

they are all over the united states (sometimes i get calls from overseas, but i usually transfer them to international..however since my job turned interna. over to outsourcing..i am getting more calls saying 'please do not transfer me to international, they never help and i rarely understand anything they say!.. but i digress)

some of them are teachers in the schools i live around.

They are normal every day people. Why would i think they should be respected by a common 'happy holidays' in case they really are not christian? but people around me should not get the same deserving respect?

in ones home one would show that person the respect or greetings of their faith. in the world around me? they deserve the greetings of happy holidays.

why should christianity greeting be more important? really, why? Christianity is not the oldest/longest lived religion here. it is not even what it was.

If you took christianity and compared it to christians say.. 1000 yrs ago, the differences would be glaring, if you compared it to people only 100 yrs ago, there are amazing differences.

it has changed over the years. so it is not even a 'constant' religion that remains the same. styles changed, actual belief systems changed, and we say education did that, as time passed we learned that things worked a certain way. early catholic beliefs and using their faith to punish others who believed different. no longer happens. catholics can now say 'the sun is not the center of the universe' and not be confined to their homes or jailed.

christianity in many ways is a youthful to middle age religion and its changing and evolving so much that it is now basically on its way 'out the door' compared to the changes it evolves though.

i do not post this for abuse/to get even/ to be mean.

just a simple fact, so again then i must ask.. 'why should merry christmas be first over happy holidays which embraces all?'

what is so special about christianity to where it should stand out more and embracing all stands out less?

and why is it that christians, which i thought were supposed to be respectful if only for spiritual reasons.. be snide and rude and purposefully wish 'merry christmas' to those they KNOW do not believe in it and are of another to no other faith?

How is one faith permitted to use a saying in a left handed manner and it is ok?

I have seen it done here and in other posts about holidays et et, done in such a way to appear nice but hinted strongly at being snotty.

it turns me off. these posts has proven just how rude 'Merry Christmas' has become and now I am not even sure I want to use it towards my friends who are obviously Christian.

It seems Christianity has no longer become a religion of faith and personal revelation/callings to one of 'one upmanship'.

[Magicjax]

Outside the plays at church and maybe a prayer or two such as before you eat your holiday meal. I think most Christians celebrate Christmas for the same reason I do (see my OP).

[Michelle]

I think most Christians celebrate Christmas for the same reason I do (see my OP).

As we can see here, also a lot of other non-believers like us.

I think some people over-react to being told Merry Christmas. As if there aren't more important things to worry about than someone giving you a friendly send off. It's a great day if that is the only thing you have to complain about.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Michelle

[Lion6969]

I still celebrate Christmas because to me it's never really been about anything religious. I grew up in a family that really didn't talk about religion. As far as I know I'm the only one that doesn't believe in god anymore. But it's just not a topic my family talked about very often.

To me when I was growing up. Christmas equaled Santa clause, presents from Santa and family and friends, candy, cookies, snow, sledding, family and friends getting together, good food and fun times with people I love and care about.

I'd do those things any chance I can. It would be great to do them all year round but if there's a day of the year that's basically devoted to those things then of course I'm going to enjoy it. So to me it has nothing to do with religion. It's a day that's traditionally spent doing these kinds of things in the country I happen to have been raised in.

Happy holidays.

Today Xmas is a commercial celebration and holiday. Originally a pagan festival, later adopted to be celebrate Jesus birth. So your reasons to celebrate it as you wish are valid.

[Sensible Logic]

As a Christian country it really doesn't matter if you believe in the Purple Unicorn, Christmas should be celebrated in a Christian way, which includes references to Jesus, Christmas trees and yes, Santa and Christianity. I'm sick of political correctness in the religion arena trying to steal Christmas, what next, our flag or our national anthem? Offensive to sing about Christmas in Australia? Freakin' ridiculous, I will be singing my carols louder than ever.

Angry parents have accused a Sydney school of stealing Christmas, including banning references to Santa, carols and Christianity.

One dad, who wanted to remain anonymous told the Daily Telegraph he would pull his daughter out of the inner-Sydney Montessori School in Balmain.

The school has removed the word Christmas from songs, with students singing "we wish you a happy holidays" instead of "we wish you a merry Christmas".

"There were about five songs and not one of them mentioned Christmas," the father told the newspaper.

"There was no Santa or Christmas decorations or a Christmas tree or any reference to Jesus."

The dad, who did not understand whether it was an extreme form of political correctness, said some of the children were so confused that they sung the forbidden lyric anyway.

"They should not force this on young kids. Christmas is meant to be all about Santa and presents," he told the Daily Telegraph.

The school’s principal, Cathy Swan, said the parent had misunderstood what happens at the school.

"We look at all cultures and the particular ways that people celebrate such as Easter, Christmas and Hanukkah," she said.

Ms Swan told the the Telegraph that the banning of Christmas references may have been an attempt by the teacher to address the fact that she has Hindu and Jewish children in her class.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8389344/sydney-school-accused-of-stealing-christmas

Don't let them get to you Puzzler. There will always be those so worried about offending anyone that they will go to extremes trying to please everyone and we both know that is impossible. The only ones who will miss out on the merriment and fun of the season are people like them. Christmas is a time of celebration regardless of what religious belief you hold or if you hold none. It is a time to act a little nicer, speak a little quieter and enjoy the company of family, friends and strangers. The only one who can take that away from you is you. So I say let the Scrooges be Scrooges and the rest of us will enjoy ourselves.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Sensible Logic

[JGirl]

i cannot wait for this holiday to be over

not that i begrudge anyone a celebration but why does it have to be extended for a month or more?

in september i noticed they had halloween stuff next to the christmas stuff. and i bet you there's valentine's stuff and easter stuff waiting in the stockroom as we speak.

[spud the mackem]

Being an athiest means that you have no after death insurance,therefor when you pop off,thats IT,the END,however if you do believe,there just maybe a chance that there is something after death,so if you wake up after you're dead its a bonus,if you dont, well you dont know because you're dead.You dont have to be religious and go to church,chapel,a temple,a mosque,or stonehenge etc,as long as you believe there is an afterlife you have that insurance,and some thing must be controlling the destiny of humans,or why are we here........?????

[Robbie333]

How can you celebrate the birth of Christ.. when noone can tell you when exactly that day was? OR are you just going along with a borrowed date from other faiths before Christianity? Dec 25th is the birth date of many saviours before Christ...it is also the pegan holiday... All borrowed to fit Christianity

EDIT........ Hope that didn't sound bad......... I meant to say - Are you celebrating the date of his birth that is widely accepted ?

Yes, don't think anyone is truly sure about His exact date of birth. I celebrate this because, as you said, it is widely accepted. Have a nice Christmas.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Robbie333

[Beckys_Mom]

Yes, don't think anyone is truly sure about His exact date of birth. I celebrate this because, as you said, it is widely accepted. Have a nice Christmas.

Thanks for not thinking I was getting at you in any way Robbie..... Yes it is widely accepted as the date...and I have to admit a nice time of year to celebrate Christmas..... Last time I actually celebrated it as something religious, was many years ago, when I along with my siblings were sent to attend midnight mass... Same at Easter, we couldn't get our eggs UNLESS we attended Church ...

Happy Christmas to you too Robbie...

Happy Holidays to all ..Eat plenty and drink loads lol

Edited December 15, 2011 by Beckys_Mom

[Rlyeh]

Being an athiest means that you have no after death insurance,therefor when you pop off,thats IT,the END,however if you do believe,there just maybe a chance that there is something after death,so if you wake up after you're dead its a bonus,if you dont, well you dont know because you're dead.You dont have to be religious and go to church,chapel,a temple,a mosque,or stonehenge etc,as long as you believe there is an afterlife you have that insurance,and some thing must be controlling the destiny of humans,or why are we here........?????

Besides this poorly thought out reasoning, do you have any evidence of this "after death insurance"?

If I believe hard enough I have a million dollars, will I magically get a million dollars?

Edited December 16, 2011 by Rlyeh

[+Link of Hyrule]

it is the same, my job on the phone is the real world. these people on the phone are real people, teachers of our children. heck in some ways they have the kids more then parents do so they are basically helping to raise the future of our world.

they are all over the united states (sometimes i get calls from overseas, but i usually transfer them to international..however since my job turned interna. over to outsourcing..i am getting more calls saying 'please do not transfer me to international, they never help and i rarely understand anything they say!.. but i digress)

some of them are teachers in the schools i live around.

They are normal every day people. Why would i think they should be respected by a common 'happy holidays' in case they really are not christian? but people around me should not get the same deserving respect?

in ones home one would show that person the respect or greetings of their faith. in the world around me? they deserve the greetings of happy holidays.

why should christianity greeting be more important? really, why? Christianity is not the oldest/longest lived religion here. it is not even what it was.

If you took christianity and compared it to christians say.. 1000 yrs ago, the differences would be glaring, if you compared it to people only 100 yrs ago, there are amazing differences.

it has changed over the years. so it is not even a 'constant' religion that remains the same. styles changed, actual belief systems changed, and we say education did that, as time passed we learned that things worked a certain way. early catholic beliefs and using their faith to punish others who believed different. no longer happens. catholics can now say 'the sun is not the center of the universe' and not be confined to their homes or jailed.

christianity in many ways is a youthful to middle age religion and its changing and evolving so much that it is now basically on its way 'out the door' compared to the changes it evolves though.

i do not post this for abuse/to get even/ to be mean.

just a simple fact, so again then i must ask.. 'why should merry christmas be first over happy holidays which embraces all?'

what is so special about christianity to where it should stand out more and embracing all stands out less?

and why is it that christians, which i thought were supposed to be respectful if only for spiritual reasons.. be snide and rude and purposefully wish 'merry christmas' to those they KNOW do not believe in it and are of another to no other faith?

How is one faith permitted to use a saying in a left handed manner and it is ok?

I have seen it done here and in other posts about holidays et et, done in such a way to appear nice but hinted strongly at being snotty.

it turns me off. these posts has proven just how rude 'Merry Christmas' has become and now I am not even sure I want to use it towards my friends who are obviously Christian.

It seems Christianity has no longer become a religion of faith and personal revelation/callings to one of 'one upmanship'.

If I knew for a fact that someone would get offended by saying "Merry Christmas", I wouldn't say it to them, and I can see your point about how rude someone is if they say it just to ensure that someone gets angry.

But for the rest, I'm happy with saying "Merry Christmas" to people in everyday life. If they are the checkout operator at the supermarket, I'll say "thank you, and have a Merry Christmas". If they sell me my train ticket, "thank you and have a great Christmas". My bank teller, same again. I have never had a person get angry at me for saying this, but if they did I would file it away in my memory and ensure that I did not say it to them again.

Fact is, I live in Australia, a country that has Christmas as a national holiday. As far as I'm concerned, if someone lives in Australia, they have accepted the values of an Australian, including the national holiday of Christmas (it doesn't have to be a religious acceptance, the title of this thread shows you don't need to be a "Christian" to celebrate Christmas). I therefore go into any meeting with a stranger with the assumption that they accept the traditional Australian greeting at this time of year - "G'day mate, and merry Christmas".

To say "Happy Holidays" is just a load of PC rubbish. Maybe it has a place in a Sales or Marketing industry where one wrong word can be the difference between making money or not making money. But in the real world, I don't see it. Most countries in the West have Christmas as part of its national celebration. Therefore in pretty much every Western country it is appropriate to say "merry Christmas" at this time of year. It's not a religious greeting, it's just an acknowledgement of what is a national holiday.

Unless a person has demonstrated that this is offensive to them, it is the right thing to say in any of these countries. That's what I believe and that's that.

~ PA

[WoIverine]

I still celebrate Christmas because to me it's never really been about anything religious. I grew up in a family that really didn't talk about religion. As far as I know I'm the only one that doesn't believe in god anymore. But it's just not a topic my family talked about very often.

To me when I was growing up. Christmas equaled Santa clause, presents from Santa and family and friends, candy, cookies, snow, sledding, family and friends getting together, good food and fun times with people I love and care about.

I'd do those things any chance I can. It would be great to do them all year round but if there's a day of the year that's basically devoted to those things then of course I'm going to enjoy it. So to me it has nothing to do with religion. It's a day that's traditionally spent doing these kinds of things in the country I happen to have been raised in.

Happy holidays.

Hey, to each his own. You know the actual religious meaning and significance of Christmas day itself, so you know that others may feel differently as well. It doesn't matter if you are atheist, as long as you respect other's feelings and beliefs towards the day, they will respect yours too. (Well, they should at least)

[Magicjax]

Forgive my ignorance on this but I can't remember where I read or saw this. But doesn't the day Dec. 25 have something to do with the suns position that day? Not really its position but it's "path" in regards to where it rises at sun rise to the point where it sets at sunset?

I hope I'm explaining this right. Basically because of the earths tilt and motion. The path the sun makes from the position it rises to the position it sets at night differs. If memory serves (can't remember where I read this) on December 25 this path is almost straight up and down. The shortest path of any day of the year. And, from where I read about this, it suggested the reasoning as to why this date was chosen.

Anyone know what I'm talking about?

Edit: I found a source of what I'm trying to talk about here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcrKE

Edited December 16, 2011 by Magicjax

[Beckys_Mom]

Happy Holidays makes sense.... It is said a lot over here... along side Merry Christmas , Happy Christmas, Seasons Greetings and so on

Happy Holidays just simply means - Christmas being classed as a holiday... we hope it is a happy time.. Happy Holidays... and it is only ever said at Christmas

There is a Christmas song I think by Bing Crosby called - Happy Holidays.... Where the merry bells keep ringing...Happy Holiday... to you ... la la

Happy Holidays is far from being rubbish ..

[Magicjax]

I find myself saying simply, "I hope you have a nice Christmas" as a parting statement to people.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Magicjax

[Blood_Sacrifice]

Religion is much more than just a faith-based institution. There is the sociocultural aspect of it. Christmas is like a cultural festival, for people to gather and have fun. One doesn't have to have Christian faith to celebrate it.

I never get to celebrate Christmas because where I live, Christians are in the minority, and I hardly ever got to socialize with them much. It seems fun, though.

[The Puzzler]

If I knew for a fact that someone would get offended by saying "Merry Christmas", I wouldn't say it to them, and I can see your point about how rude someone is if they say it just to ensure that someone gets angry.

But for the rest, I'm happy with saying "Merry Christmas" to people in everyday life. If they are the checkout operator at the supermarket, I'll say "thank you, and have a Merry Christmas". If they sell me my train ticket, "thank you and have a great Christmas". My bank teller, same again. I have never had a person get angry at me for saying this, but if they did I would file it away in my memory and ensure that I did not say it to them again.

Fact is, I live in Australia, a country that has Christmas as a national holiday. As far as I'm concerned, if someone lives in Australia, they have accepted the values of an Australian, including the national holiday of Christmas (it doesn't have to be a religious acceptance, the title of this thread shows you don't need to be a "Christian" to celebrate Christmas). I therefore go into any meeting with a stranger with the assumption that they accept the traditional Australian greeting at this time of year - "G'day mate, and merry Christmas".

To say "Happy Holidays" is just a load of PC rubbish. Maybe it has a place in a Sales or Marketing industry where one wrong word can be the difference between making money or not making money. But in the real world, I don't see it. Most countries in the West have Christmas as part of its national celebration. Therefore in pretty much every Western country it is appropriate to say "merry Christmas" at this time of year. It's not a religious greeting, it's just an acknowledgement of what is a national holiday.

Unless a person has demonstrated that this is offensive to them, it is the right thing to say in any of these countries. That's what I believe and that's that.

~ PA

[libstaK]

Fact is, I live in Australia, a country that has Christmas as a national holiday. As far as I'm concerned, if someone lives in Australia, they have accepted the values of an Australian, including the national holiday of Christmas (it doesn't have to be a religious acceptance, the title of this thread shows you don't need to be a "Christian" to celebrate Christmas). I therefore go into any meeting with a stranger with the assumption that they accept the traditional Australian greeting at this time of year - "G'day mate, and merry Christmas".

To say "Happy Holidays" is just a load of PC rubbish. Maybe it has a place in a Sales or Marketing industry where one wrong word can be the difference between making money or not making money. But in the real world, I don't see it. Most countries in the West have Christmas as part of its national celebration. Therefore in pretty much every Western country it is appropriate to say "merry Christmas" at this time of year. It's not a religious greeting, it's just an acknowledgement of what is a national holiday.

Unless a person has demonstrated that this is offensive to them, it is the right thing to say in any of these countries. That's what I believe and that's that.

~ PA

I totally agree, I'd go further though and say, even if it was a religious greeting - why the big deal? I'm offering someone a sincere and heartfelt "Merry" Christmas aka: I am wishing them well - to me if they are offended by that then they are offended by my christianity. You might as well be offended by my existence if that is the case because, guess what? that is who I am.

If I am offered a Happy Hannukah or a blessing from any other faith I appreciate that person's goodwill toward me - the faith from which the blessing originates is how the person knows to wish me well from their heart - it seems odd to be offended by such a thing quite frankly, I've certainly never been given the impression they wish me to convert to their beliefs in any way when they have done it - it's just who they are. I have to say I am partial to "blessed be" of the pagans it is quite touching when some pagans I know say it - of course, they are very sincere.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Forgive my ignorance on this but I can't remember where I read or saw this. But doesn't the day Dec. 25 have something to do with the suns position that day? Not really its position but it's "path" in regards to where it rises at sun rise to the point where it sets at sunset?

I hope I'm explaining this right. Basically because of the earths tilt and motion. The path the sun makes from the position it rises to the position it sets at night differs. If memory serves (can't remember where I read this) on December 25 this path is almost straight up and down. The shortest path of any day of the year. And, from where I read about this, it suggested the reasoning as to why this date was chosen.

Anyone know what I'm talking about?

Edit: I found a source of what I'm trying to talk about here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcrKE

It's true that December 25 was chosen because of its pagan significance. But the rest of Zeitgeist is mostly worthless. The attempt to relate the apostles to the zodiac, of other deities.... the work is quite laughable if you attempt to seek the ancient sources that are quoted (I'm no historian, but I tried googling for the supposed information and came up with nothing except other Christ-myther arguments - in other words, very little ancient pre-Christian sources to back up the claims of copycat messiah-ship).

Outside of the obvious pagan origin of December 25 I pretty much reject anything that this video had to offer. Just my view, of course...

~ PA

[+Link of Hyrule]

I totally agree, I'd go further though and say, even if it was a religious greeting - why the big deal? I'm offering someone a sincere and heartfelt "Merry" Christmas aka: I am wishing them well - to me if they are offended by that then they are offended by my christianity. You might as well be offended by my existence if that is the case because, guess what? that is who I am.

If I am offered a Happy Hannukah or a blessing from any other faith I appreciate that person's goodwill toward me - the faith from which the blessing originates is how the person knows to wish me well from their heart - it seems odd to be offended by such a thing quite frankly, I've certainly never been given the impression they wish me to convert to their beliefs in any way when they have done it - it's just who they are. I have to say I am partial to "blessed be" of the pagans it is quite touching when some pagans I know say it - of course, they are very sincere.

Absolutely I see what you are saying. And I agree with what you are saying. I can't see why anyone would get offended by a heartfelt greeting. I mean, I don't get offended when people use other-than-Christmas blessings at this time of year. And truth be told, I have yet to meet someone who has made an issue out of my Christmas greeting - which kind of says a lot when I live in the South-West of Sydney where we have the highest multicultural concentration in Australia (the constituent that I live in displays that 9-out-of-10 people I meet will come from a background other than English). But if someone does get offended, then I would keep their interests in mind and ensure that I don't offend them if possible.

~ Regards,

[Beckys_Mom]

Why the Church picked - Dec 25th for Jesus's Birthday ?

The winter solstice occurs about DEC-21 each year. It is the day of the year when the night is longest and the daytime shortest. Using the crude instruments available, ancient astronomers were able to detect by DEC-25 of each year that the daytime had become noticeably longer. . Their deities were typically called: Son of Man, Light of the World, Sun of Righteousness, Bridegroom, and Savior. Some examples are:

Roman Pagan Religion: Attis was a son of the virgin Nana. His birth was celebrated on DEC-25. He was sacrificed as an adult in order to bring salvation to mankind. He died about MAR-25, after being crucified on a tree, and descended for three days into the underworld. On Sunday, he arose, as the solar deity for the new season. His followers tied an image of Attis to a tree on "Black Friday," and carried him in a procession to the temple. His body was symbolically eaten by his followers in the form of bread. Worship of Attis began in Rome circa 200 BCE

.Greek Pagan Religion: Dionysus is another savior-god whose birth was observed on DEC-25. He was worshipped throughout much of the Middle East as well. He had a center of worship in Jerusalem in the 1st century BCE. Some ancient coins have been found in Gaza with Dionysus on one side and JHWH (Jehovah) on the other. In later years, his flesh and blood were symbolically eaten in the form of bread and wine. He was viewed as the son of Zeus, the Father God

.Egyptian Pagan Religion: Osiris is a savior-god who had been worshipped as far back as Neolithic times. "He was called Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods...the Resurrection and the Life, the Good shepherd...the god who 'made men and women be born again'" ₅Three wise men announced his birth. His followers ate cakes of wheat which symbolized his body. Many sayings associated with Osiris were taken over into the Bible. This included:

23rd Psalm: an appeal to Osiris as the good Shepherd to lead believers through the valley of the shadow of death and to green pastures and still waters

Lord's Prayer: "O amen, who art in heaven..."Many parables attributed to Jesus.

Worship of Osiris, and celebration of his DEC-25 birth, were established throughout the Roman Empire by the end of the 1st century BCE.

Persian Pagan Religion: Mithra was a Persian savior. Worship of Mithra became common throughout the Roman Empire, particularly among the Roman civil service and military. Mithraism was a competitor of Christianity until the 4th century. Their god was believed to have been born on DEC-25, circa 500 BCE.

His birth was witnessed by shepherds and by gift-carrying Magi. This was celebrated as the "Dies Natalis Solic Invite," The "Birthday of the Unconquered Sun." Some followers believed that he was born of a virgin. During his life, he performed many miracles, cured many illnesses, and cast out devils. He celebrated a Last Supper with his 12 disciples. He ascended to heaven at the time of the spring equinox, about March 21.

http://www.religious...rg/xmas_sel.htm

I believe that the early Christians took bits and pieces from difference faiths to stitch them together to create their own...... In fact I have had many people try and argue it calling it myth, even though Jesus himself can be pegged myth ...but only those who are Christian will do so. ( wel only those that will argue over faith...many don't care to argue 50/50) ... There are so many books and other sources that can educate anyone on this.......

I have already educated my own child on the amount of saviours all clammed to be born on 25th Dec.. and how Christianity took the holiday... She understands.. all she cares about is - Santa is coming..

Edited December 18, 2011 by Beckys_Mom

[+Link of Hyrule]

Why the Church picked - Dec 25th for Jesus's Birthday ?

I believe that the early Christians took bits and pieces from difference faiths to stitch them together to create their own...... In fact I have had many people try and argue it calling it myth, even though Jesus himself can be pegged myth ...but only those who are Christian will do so. ( wel only those that will argue over faith...many don't care to argue 50/50) ... There are so many books and other sources that can educate anyone on this.......

I have already educated my own child on the amount of saviours all clammed to be born on 25th Dec.. and how Christianity took the holiday... She understands.. all she cares about is - Santa is coming..

This pretty much covers what I said in my last post about dodgy research. I made a similar post in the other Spirituality Board comparing this type of thought to the pseudo-science of creationism. Like these peudo-scientists, pseudo-historians try and claim that all saviour-myths come from a singular source about sun worship.

Religioustolerance.org is a good and bad website in my opinion. It is a good place to start research, but to end research there is a grave mistake. The creed of the site is to present every available point of view on any topic. This means that well-researched and well-thought out points of view are placed right next to fringe ideas with little backing, and neither elevated above the other. This might give the impression that all ideas presented are equally backed by the historical community, but that is a false view.

Going to the December 25 issue, the stories about Jesus were in circulation long before December 25 was chosen as the date. That date was inspired by pagan influences about the sun, but it does not therefore mean that the entire story of Jesus was therefore intended to be an allegory of the sun.

And this does not even address the possible historical inconsistencies that link Osiris/Krishna/Mithra as copycat saviour-gods... which is another discussion in and of itself.

In short, I am of the opinion that those who present a "copycat" saviour idea are pseudo-historians. Like the pseudo-scientists who promote creationism, they have little going for them aside from a small layman following, and they are routinely dismissed by the mainstream historical community.

It's hard to sugar-coat that, so if it sounds scathing then so be it Best wishes,

~ PA

[Beckys_Mom]

This pretty much covers what I said in my last post about dodgy research. (SNIP)

Like I said, the only ones that will argue it are Christans.well the christians that like to \argue over faith...not many will care to, because they do not feel their faith should be used as a tool to fight or argue..< I mean that in general... Call it dodgy call it myth.. call it beans on toast... All boils down to - What you wish to believe ..I doubt all the sources that write about past saviours are publishing lies or anything dodgy, it can only be called dodgy from the Christians that like to argue it... I don't believe any faith is worth arguing over... when a religion is used as a tool to argue with, it is not worth it's salt

IMO There is nothing unique about Christianity ... In fact I doubt there is a unique religion made.. I believe all over time have copied bits and pieces from older faiths.. to make up their own

There most likely was a real saviour, born of a virgin....... but I doubt it was Jesus.... OR it could be an old saviour myth that was passed on through time BEFORE it ever reached Christianity...I have noticed reading about each one, bits more have been added... People will do that to make theirs sound more unique........

Edited December 18, 2011 by Beckys_Mom

[+Link of Hyrule]

Like I said, the only ones that will argue it are Christans.

Don't forget atheists such as Richard Carrier (former editor-in-chief of infidels.org), who argue against it in THIS LINK.

Or atheists such as Rook Hawkins in THIS LINK who is also part of an atheist website dedicated to "rational thought".....

These being just two atheists I know factually argue against Acharya and co.

Looks like there's more than just Christians here. Sorry, based on my reading of the material (ancient material, not just claims made in modern terms), the arguments of these so-called Christ-mythers is lacking in many respects. I know from previous discussion that you believe these guys (and sorry if it offends you that I think of this research in the same light as the pseudo-science of creationism. But I seriously believe that in order to actually take these guys seriously more than just claims need to be brought, they need to provide ancient sources (that is, sources that pre-date Christianity) in order to show without doubt that their views are accurate.

So far, I have yet to see any corroboration of this, which I think is vital to proving their side of the argument.

~ PA

Edited December 18, 2011 by Paranoid Android