Contrails, Chemtrails & Weird clouds

[oly]

No not if its in you kitchen.

But next time its below minus degrees outside, try to boil a kettle then go outside were there is no wind and see how long the water vapor last.

Also another fun thing to do(at least for kids), when its about -10C or colder outside. Take a glass of water throw it up in the air and it will come down as snow. Showed my nephew this yesterday and he couldn't get enough.

So why not more trails in cold weather? & why planes with no trail at sub zero?

Thanks for snow trick, I'll try it when -10. Does it work with pee?

Edited December 20, 2011 by oly

[frenat]

at 4,000 feet on a warm summers day? low level clouds never formed from aircraft before at 4,000 feet, only high altitude where the contrails freeze at around 30,000 feet. I'm not talking arctic winds here, this is on a warm summers day. this is why I am saying some material is dispersed to produce man made clouds whether directly or indirectly to condense atmospheric water vapor.

my evidence and reference point is what I have observed, not something I saw on the internet, the patterns and observations of the planes as well as the effects they produce is not normal.

I have yet to see any evidence for persistent trails at 4,000 feet. The previously posted video certainly did not show that.

[Little Fish]

You saw a contrail at 4000 feet on a very hot day?? Was it over 30c? If so very strange but not impossible.

yes many times during summer months, it was clearly less than a mile away since i could make out detail on the plane (no way to make out detail at contrail altitudes), very thick trail almost like smoke, fans out to form a cloud eventually turning the sky white and hazy. possibly 30C, maybe 25C, but a hot summers day, had relatives with me so I do not misremember the conversations, nor misremember the time and dates. had it independently confirmed by others who reported the same unusual thing from other locations (with no prompting from me), seen it on many occasions. you can say its possible, but what I saw is not possible in my opinion without some out of the ordinary means. I have never seen anything like that, then suddenly after decades of not seeing anything like it they start appearing and everyone I know notices. so something changed. couple that with aircraft observations, flying from horizon to horizon and back again leaving these thick trails, aircraft travelling in pairs one behind the other, low altitude, off known flight routes (when you live under a flight route near an airport you know the routes), the set times these trailers appear, always in front of the sun, their unsual landing sequence low over me, their unsual (non commercial) appearance, etc, etc. these are my own observations.

btw the average height for water vapor to freeze is not 30.000 feet is around 2-3 km.

25-30,000 feet is the often reported height for visible contrail formation.

[Von Bismarck]

So why not more trails in cold weather? & why planes with no trail at sub zero?

You would see more contrails in a colder environment. I live close to father christmas and i do rarely see a plane pass by without a contrail. Remember contrails are frozen water vapor.

Thanks for snow trick, I'll try it when -10. Does it work with pee?

Wouldn't think it would work. But please record it on video when you try and post it.

[Von Bismarck]

yes many times during summer months, it was clearly less than a mile away since i could make out detail on the plane (no way to make out detail at contrail altitudes), very thick trail almost like smoke, fans out to form a cloud eventually turning the sky white and hazy. possibly 30C, maybe 25C, but a hot summers day, had relatives with me so I do not misremember the conversations, nor misremember the time and dates. had it independently confirmed by others who reported the same unusual thing from other locations (with no prompting from me), seen it on many occasions. you can say its possible, but what I saw is not possible in my opinion without some out of the ordinary means. I have never seen anything like that, then suddenly after decades of not seeing anything like it they start appearing and everyone I know notices. so something changed. couple that with aircraft observations, flying from horizon to horizon and back again leaving these thick trails, aircraft travelling in pairs one behind the other, low altitude, off known flight routes (when you live under a flight route near an airport you know the routes), the set times these trailers appear, always in front of the sun, their unsual landing sequence low over me, their unsual (non commercial) appearance, etc, etc. these are my own observations.

Sounds like you might have been witnessing a research program? Especially when you say they fly in pairs. Could either be a by public scientists or the military scientists. Try calling the universities around you, if its military planes then call the nearby military bases and ask them. In the US they HAVE to answer if the are conducting any experiments. Given the mass hysteria under operation dew and operation lac back in the 50's. Dont know if UK military has to answer, but no harm in trying.

25-30,000 feet is the often reported height for visible contrail formation.

Who says that?

Edited December 20, 2011 by BFB

[oly]

You would see more contrails in a colder environment. I live close to father christmas and i do rarely see a plane pass by without a contrail. Remember contrails are frozen water vapor.

Wouldn't think it would work. But please record it on video when you try and post it.

I'll try drinking some aluminium sulfate beforehand.

In uk trails seem to be unrelated to seasons.

[Little Fish]

Sounds like you might have been witnessing a research program? Especially when you say they fly in pairs. Could either be a by public scientists or the military scientists.

that was my conclusion, but this continued for 2 years from 2009-2011, never before that I noticed and I spend a lot of time outside. they were more often observable on hot days. to put a ponderance out there, the last 2 years in the uk have been the coldest winters for 80 years. so this further supports a deliberate sustained effot to reduce temperatures.

Try calling the universities around you, if its military planes then call the nearby military bases and ask them. In the US they HAVE to answer if the are conducting any experiments. Given the mass hysteria under operation dew and operation lac back in the 50's. Dont know if UK military has to answer, but no harm in trying.

uk military has no obligation to say anything. the response I got frm DEFRA was "there is no such thing as chemtrails" - I never mentioned chemtrails, just planes producing persistent smoke trails in the way I have described to you. if an investigator asks "have you seen this man in the picture", what is he to think if the response is "I didn't murder him".

Who says that?

just about every official source I can find, here nasa says it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrail

[Von Bismarck]

I'll try drinking some aluminium sulfate beforehand.

In uk trails seem to be unrelated to seasons.

Seasons doesn't really matter. Its to due with the temperature of the atmosphere.

[oly]

Seasons doesn't really matter. Its to due with the temperature of the atmosphere.

But temp is affected by season

[Von Bismarck]

that was my conclusion, but this continued for 2 years from 2009-2011, never before that I noticed and I spend a lot of time outside. they were more often observable on hot days. to put a ponderance out there, the last 2 years in the uk have been the coldest winters for 80 years. so this further supports a deliberate sustained effot to reduce temperatures.

Hmm sounds very strange. From 2009-2011? If it was now you were witnessing this, i would go for the SPICE project. Have you tried the nearby universities?

Also you know the last t[w]o cold winters wans't because of this.

uk military has no obligation to say anything. the response I got frm DEFRA was "there is no such thing as chemtrails" - I never mentioned chemtrails, just planes producing persistent smoke trails in the way I have described to you. if an investigator asks "have you seen this man in the picture", what is he to think if the response is "I didn't murder him".

He said no such things as chemtrails [exists]? WOW who the **** were you talking to? But agian this just show that some military personal dosn't really know what they are talking about.

just about every official source I can find, here nasa says it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrail

It true they usually occures at that level

Exhaust contrails usually occur above 8000 metres (26,000 feet), and only if the temperature there is below −40 °C (−40 °F)

But it can occur at any height even near the ground, i have seen this myself. But i would like to note the NASA link didn't work and that at 8000 meter the atmosphere average temperature isn't -40C.

The guy here on wiki is wrong. It doesn't have to be -40C before contrails can form.

Edited December 20, 2011 by BFB

[Von Bismarck]

But temp is affected by season

True but thats not how it works. The physical properties of the atmosphere changes minute by minute, so using seasons as an agrument is not entirly correct. You dont think it can be freezing just at a 2-3 km level in the atmosphere on a warm day?

Edited December 20, 2011 by BFB

[Little Fish]

as I said before, if they started geoengineering with planes, what would you expect it to look like? how would it be different? would you notice?

there is some good info in this link describing the method, what's involved, the cost etc in spraying the atmopshere. all the obections are not such a big deal, according to this, it would be like running a small airline much much smaller than fedex airline, and easily affordable by a few private individuals.

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~keith/Misc/AuroraGeoReport.pdf

if you accept what planes are doing now as normal (it isn't), ie producing cloud banks, then how would you even notice the difference when they start to do it?? and indeed why would they need to do it if ordinary commercial aircraft has the same effect? I think some people are getting stuck because they believe that such a program would be announced on their TV sets. I would disagree.

[Little Fish]

But it can occur at any height even near the ground, i have seen this myself. But i would like to note the NASA link didn't work and that at 8000 meter the atmosphere average temperature isn't -40C.

The guy here on wiki is wrong. It doesn't have to be -40C before contrails can form.

i was lazy going to wikipedia, but it sorresponds to what I have seen from many official sources, here is the nasa link that wiki linked to, so the source is nasa not a guy on wiki.

"Q: Where do contrails form?

A: Contrails are human-induced clouds that usually form at very high altitudes (usually above 8 km - about 26,000 ft) where the air is extremely cold (less than -40ºC). Because of this, contrails form not when an airplane is taking off or landing, but while it is at cruise altitude. (Exceptions occur in places like Alaska and Canada, where very cold air is sometimes found near the ground.) Thus, people who live under major air traffic routes, not people who live near major airports, are those who will see the most contrails. (However, some major airports are also under major air traffic routes, which can lead to confusion.) You can use an Appleman chart to predict contrail formation for your area. Of course, a contrail cannot form if no airplane passes through."

http://web.archive.org/web/20101125100209/http://asd-www.larc.nasa.gov/GLOBE/faq.html

[Little Fish]

But it can occur at any height even near the ground, i have seen this myself.

at -35C according to this chart.

is it possible that on a summers day of 25C the temperature 4,000 feet up would be -35 Celcius. I don't think so.

http://science-edu.larc.nasa.gov/contrail-edu/resources/activities/appleman_teacher.html

Edited December 20, 2011 by Little Fish

[Little Fish]

Hmm sounds very strange. From 2009-2011? If it was now you were witnessing this, i would go for the SPICE project. Have you tried the nearby universities?

I have not.

Also you know the last t[w]o cold winters wans't because of this.

the last winters were caused by perturbations in the polar jet stream, causing the polar front to move south over the UK, by cooling the higher latitudes (uk/europe for instance), wouldn't the jet stream move further south bringing the polar front with it? its just speculative but i maybe a plausible explanation.

He said no such things as chemtrails [exists]? WOW who the **** were you talking to? But agian this just show that some military personal dosn't really know what they are talking about.

to be clear I contacted my MP who passed me onto DEFRA which is the monsanto agricultural department. the person who responded was fairly high up as I recall, if I find the letters I will scan them and give you a copy.

[MID]

that is exactly the point that I made, so why would a "persistent contrail" form from a jet aircraft at 4,000 feet, and then over an hour or so form a cloud? clearly something is happening that never happened before.

...

A persistent contrail would not form at 4000 feet.

I told you that.

Maybe you didn't read the analysis of that film, where it was proposed that the contrails being formed were "just above" the clouds, which were at 4000 feet?

that was rubbish. The connies were in the flight levels, where they always are.

[Von Bismarck]

i was lazy going to wikipedia, but it sorresponds to what I have seen from many official sources, here is the nasa link that wiki linked to, so the source is nasa not a guy on wiki.

"Q: Where do contrails form?

A: Contrails are human-induced clouds that usually form at very high altitudes (usually above 8 km - about 26,000 ft) where the air is extremely cold (less than -40ºC). Because of this, contrails form not when an airplane is taking off or landing, but while it is at cruise altitude. (Exceptions occur in places like Alaska and Canada, where very cold air is sometimes found near the ground.) Thus, people who live under major air traffic routes, not people who live near major airports, are those who will see the most contrails. (However, some major airports are also under major air traffic routes, which can lead to confusion.) You can use an Appleman chart to predict contrail formation for your area. Of course, a contrail cannot form if no airplane passes through."

http://web.archive.org/web/20101125100209/http://asd-www.larc.nasa.gov/GLOBE/faq.html

Contrails are human-induced clouds

When you drive around in your car at temperatures between -5C and -15 sometime cars will produce contrails. This is the reason why it sometimes seems "foggy" while driving in a cold environment. I see it every winter.

Edited December 20, 2011 by BFB

[Von Bismarck]

the last winters were caused by perturbations in the polar jet stream, causing the polar front to move south over the UK, by cooling the higher latitudes (uk/europe for instance), wouldn't the jet stream move further south bringing the polar front with it? its just speculative but i maybe a plausible explanation.

Troughs and ridges happens all the time to the polar jet stream and the polar front. Nothing which needs an explanation.

But actually we might need to look at the sun, for this answer.

[Little Fish]

...

A persistent contrail would not form at 4000 feet.

I told you that.

...

that's what i said - a contrail (persistent or otherwise) would not form at 4,000 feet.

I told you that.

are you really not following what is being said?

[+DieChecker]

I've seen contrails from landing planes at sea level. Not the persistant ones, but visible trails for a short time. Contrails are not just frozen ice crystals, some are moisture condensation due to heat and air disturbance. Otherwise we'd have to believe that ALL clouds we see are frozen ice crystals, which obviously is not the case.

Edited December 21, 2011 by DieChecker

[Englishgent]

...

that's what i said - a contrail (persistent or otherwise) would not form at 4,000 feet.

I told you that.

are you really not following what is being said?

I think Mid is following exactly what was said. As I read it, he refers to the video and states that the chemtrails at 4000ft are not what they are alleged to be but are in fact contrails at a much higher altitude.

[+DieChecker]

How does one estimate a contrail at 4000 feet rather then 20000? By guessing the size of the plane? Perspective can be deceiving. Now, pictures, with something as scale, that would be evidence. But.... maybe these world altering chemtrail airplanes aren't flying around anymore? Or maybe just at night when nothing can be prooven for or against with pictures?

Let's see some pics of these airplanes.

[oly]

trail circling over city airport, london

pic in newspaper alongside geoengineering article

note rainbow in both pics

[Mr.United_Nations]

I've seen contrails from landing planes at sea level. Not the persistant ones, but visible trails for a short time. Contrails are not just frozen ice crystals, some are moisture condensation due to heat and air disturbance. Otherwise we'd have to believe that ALL clouds we see are frozen ice crystals, which obviously is not the case.

Those are wing contrails I think.

[Mr.United_Nations]

trail circling over city airport, london

pic in newspaper alongside geoengineering article

note rainbow in both pics

The first one, there is no rainbow, look at edges of the sun, it's the same colour of blues on that same patch of cloud.