Why are Christians uneducated

[mikachan]

Ok, so i have been seeing various posts from what i would call "Hardcore" Christian doomsayers and preachers regarding the Devil, End of Times, Prophecy etc etc. Yet is puzzles me why these people have no understanding of the history or truths of their own religion and are so willing to power on spouting fear through ignorance which usually only results in them seeming like fools to those more educated on the subject.

I present you with the following. It is a small amount of research i came up with as regards the Devil, Hell and points on who is actually a real Christian. I am not going to write loads i shall just provide a few point and if anyone else wishes to join my discussion to either debate these points or add some of their own i would conider them most welcome.

The Devil aka Lucifer and Hell.

The bible as we all know was originaly written in Hebrew. Now here is the interesting part.

Lucifer or Devil is not his real name, what is his real name i hear you ask......no one knows because he is originally name Ha-Satan or tranlated through to english would more accurately be "the obstructor/opposer". "Ha" being a Hebrew word for "The" and "Satan"being a Hebrew noun from a verb meaning what i said a moment ago i.e obstruct/oppose. So to Lucifer which is nothing more than a latin phrase for Morning/Falling star and has no grounds what so ever in the Hebrew language.

Ok now you know a little history on the name and its actual meaning lets us look at a bible verse in a totally different light.

* 1 Chronicles 21:1, "Satan stood up against Israel" OR "Obstruction stood up against Israel"

* Psalm 109:6b "and let Satan stand at his right hand" OR COULD READ "and let Obstruction (or the opposer) stand at his right hand"

You could replace Obstruction with Opposition or Opposer depending on how anal you want to get but the point is, taking into account hard factual evidence of the origins and meanings of the word. That does not prove this so called Devil exists. It is a more commonly accepted theory however that due to the way the "Devil"is portrayed, i.e Horns and Pitchfork dancing angrily around a big pot, that he does in fact originate from a Pagan Horned God as do most Christian Saints, Angels, Customs etc,

To the word Hell which is derived from an olde english word Hel or Helle which has its roots further still in the Proto-Germanic word "Halja" meaning "One who covers something up".

Now lets look at what words are wrongly translated as "Hell" in Hebrew.

* Abbadon - Destruction......Not Hell.

* Gehenna - Location outside of Jerusalem called The Valley of Hinnom.

* Hades - To the dead, Among the dead, Place of the dead....Still doesnt mean a place of evil though, refers mainly to a grave or the Spirit World but not a place of punishment and Damnation and even saying spirit world is debated, just because one or two cultures used it to describe somewhere doesnt take away the words origin.

* Infernus - Being Underneath

* Sheol - The grave or The Pit (please note The Pit is 99.999999999% talking about the grave).

* Tartarus - The only word known to possibly exist in this sense to soley be talking about Hell OR IS IT as it is in fact derived from Greek Paganism and is the name of a Deity and a place in the underworld BUT not Hell.

Anyway the original point of all this is you can not say Hell exists, you can not say the Devil exists because when you tranlate the ORIGINAL wording, NOT THE LATIN VERSION, you come up with words like opposition, the grave and being underneath which when put into original bible context take away alot of the idea that there was an original big evil in the first place. You also have to take into account that christianity or the idea of God and the Devil in that sense are relatively NEW ideas in the world compared to more ancient religions and customs and the Devil was really nothing more than something made up by early christians to scare the pagans into converting. Hence why really old churches are full of pagan carvings and designs, so they could worship their gods without being persecuted. Early Christianity even included some of those symbols that today are condemned as evil.

What makes me laugh above all else is that not one single person on this earth is actually a Christian with the exception of maybe the Jewish people.

E.G

The most basic one is Jesus is the king of the Jews, and states numerous times regarding "his own people".

Then you have the fact that you are not allowed to marry outside of the Jewish people.

Nehemiah 13:23-27

In those days also I saw the Jews who had married women of Ashdod, Ammon, and Moab. And half of their children spoke the language of Ashdod, and they could not speak the language of Judah, but only the language of each people. And I confronted them and cursed them and beat some of them and pulled out their hair. And I made them take oath in the name of God, saying, “You shall not give your daughters to their sons, or take their daughters for your sons or for yourselves. Did not Solomon king of Israel sin on account of such women? Among the many nations there was no king like him, and he was beloved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel. Nevertheless, foreign women made even him to sin. Shall we then listen to you and do all this great evil and act treacherously against our God by marrying foreign women?”

Divorce is condemned by jesus yet they all still do it.

"Mark 10: Then in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter. He said to them, ‘Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.’"

We could also cover the grounds of the "Protestant" sect (to put it one way). Which was created by Henry 8th, purely because he wanted divorce which makes most modern day christianty a fable anyway.

Interfaith marriages are forbidden in numerous areas of scripture, yet we still see it as are interfaith marriages.

Anyway that will do for a few small points to start this discussion off and i pose the following questions :

1. Why are they so ignorant as to not want to research the true history of their beliefs and are so happy to condemn and spout with no base knowledge of where their thoughts and ideas may have come from.

2. Do they not realise that most of them are nothing christian in the slightest and are only hanging on to handfull of beliefs on the very fringes of christian religion, scipture and central "lore".

3. Why do they not want to take responsibility for their own actions instead of basing it on some so called primordial evil which seems to lord it over them more so than god apparently, and as shown above if you take the translation as litteral they could have been talking about anything opposing them.

4. It is a widely known historical fact that the bible has been chopped, changed and re arranged to suit the needs of the Church. So why do christians not demand a more "accurate" version of the bible be places in their midst, by that i mean a direct translation from the original scrptures as opposed to the bastardised version they read today.

So feel free, lets debate, argue, rip to shreads and re build, Add your own points, attack me for for what i written and condemn me to hell. I just want to debate this because as much as it annoys me at times i am rather fascinated by world religion and would love to explore further peoples opinions and convictions on the matter.

[Imaginarynumber1]

Nice post. I agree with most of the information that you presented. I would type more, bu I'm feeling lazy right now.

[Pastymancer]

A couple of pedantic points that I would argue on:

Shoel - Less of a pit, the Jewish concept was probably more of a place of nothingness. This is the place where souls dwell still in their bodies awaiting the day of judgement. However, this concept evolved with time quite considerably. By the time the gospel writers wrote the story of Lazarus and Dives it was a place where judgement was already taking place.

Henry VII - The common misconception is that he was pushing Rome for a divorce. He was actually asking for announcement (bull) by the pope that due Church Law (descended from Leviticus) stating he could not marry the wife of his brother, he was not married, never married and was free to marry his "first" wife in Anne Boleyn (or Bullin as the correct family name). It may look like divorce with modern eyes but was at the time very important as it did not contravine Jesus' teaching on divorce.

Protestant Church - Mainly the Anglican and by derivation the Methodist are descended from Henry VIII seperation from Rome. Even then the Anglican church (from 16th century-18th century) was a mixture of different denominations within the same body caused by the state requirement that people take communion within the new Church, a good example of the divisions at the time is the history of how the King James Bible. I would also say more of the protestant church was decended from teachings from Martin Luther and other 15th century scholars/preachers. So to say that the protestant church was due to a King's libido is a weak point to argue.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Pastymancer

[White Crane Feather]

It's called indoctrination. Several things happen.

1) many ( not all) are taught that if they seek outside information ( like information that might shed light on their own religion) that they are not trusting the bible.

2) looking harder at subjects like this and steping away from tradition and ego is very hard for people.

3) once people have invested so much of themselves into something and they receive information that its probably wrong they put blinders on and basically are unable to come to terms with the new info. You see this in cults all the time. The person knows what is right but they have put so much of themselves in they adopt a no turning back attitude in hope that they might be right. It's like an all or nothing bet, because you feel it's your only chance. You have gambled away your savings, and this one bet could fix it all. Of course we know this as gamblers fallacy.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Now lets look at what words are wrongly translated as "Hell" in Hebrew.

This may have just been a typo, but I just wanted to clarify that several of those words on your list don't actually come from Hebrew but actually from the ancient Greek texts.....

That said, I didn't really focus on the other questions you chose to raise in your post. I'd rather focus on one point at a time. So in following with this point, I think it is awfully arrogant to refer to "all Christians" without actually making any reference to other groups. Tarring every person with the same brush really doesn't go down well. I understand that often it is the case that people may not know what they are talking about but if you turn up at a site that you aren't that familiar with and begin to level accusations left-right-centre, then things aren't going to go so well.

That said this first section of your post reminded me of an essay I wrote a while back (I think it was a result of something mentioned here on this website, but I can't recall right now). However, my old harddrive is no longer active (at least until I get a new power supply) and for some reason the the times I brought it up here on UM it won't download anymore. I hope I can get it back because it really goes through a lot of the points you raise, and though the final conclusion may be different to yours it does dispel the argument you raised here that Christians are "uneducated" and don't bother looking into their beliefs (though admittedly I am not one of the typical believers who are content to just hear what is said, I like to think outside the box and find answers there from time to time.

Best wishes, hopefully I can get a hold of that essay again (maybe one of the guys who downloaded it from earlier posts will forward it on to me, lol).

~ PA

[Leonardo]

Best wishes, hopefully I can get a hold of that essay again (maybe one of the guys who downloaded it from earlier posts will forward it on to me, lol).

~ PA

I had a copy of that essay, PA, but also lost it when my previous computer went *Bang*, and unfortunately I am very lazy/absent-minded when it comes to backing up the data.

[meryt-tetisheri]

1. Why are they so ignorant as to not want to research the true history of their beliefs and are so happy to condemn and spout with no base knowledge of where their thoughts and ideas may have come from.

Who exactly are 'they'? You are making such a sweeping, over-generalized , and unsubstantiated statement about more than a billion individuals, of various ethnicities, cultures, and denominations living in close to a hundred different countries, yet your argument razes all cultural, historical, linguistic, and geographical differences and factors; and reduces or rather lumps diverse communities into one group referred to as 'they'. How could one judge or offer assertions about the 'degree of education/ ignorance', the nature of beliefs, the origins of religious practices' with any semblance of credibility without any empirical comparative research; and yet you are criticizing 'their' lack of research and acceptance of generalizations while ignoring 'original sources'!

You also have to take into account that christianity or the idea of God and the Devil in that sense are relatively NEW ideas in the world compared to more ancient religions and customs and the Devil was really nothing more than something made up by early christians to scare the pagans into converting. Hence why really old churches are full of pagan carvings and designs, so they could worship their gods without being persecuted. Early Christianity even included some of those symbols that today are condemned as evil.

The incorporation of older religious symbols, motifs, practices or even sacred spaces into a newly adopted belief system is better explained within the framework of 'cultural continuities', than that of 'coercion & disguise'.

[kaptn k]

Stated simply, the Jewish view of Jesus of Nazareth is that he was an ordinary Jewish man and preacher living during the Roman occupation of the Holy Land in the first century C.E. The Romans executed him - and also executed many other nationalistic and religious Jews - for speaking out against Roman authority and abuses.

Was Jesus the Messiah According to Jewish Beliefs?

After the death of Jesus, his followers - at the time a small sect of former Jews known as the Nazarenes - claimed he was the Messiah prophesied in Jewish texts and that he would soon return to fulfill the acts required of the Messiah. The majority of contemporary Jews rejected this belief and Judaism as a whole continues to do so today. Eventually, Jesus became the focal point of a small Jewish religious movement that would evolve into the Christian faith.

Jews do not believe that Jesus was divine, the Son of God, or the Messiah prophesied in Jewish scriptures. He is seen as a "false messiah," meaning someone who claimed (or whose followers claimed for him) the mantle of the Messiah but who ultimately did not meet the requirements laid out in Jewish beliefs. According to Jewish scripture and belief, the true Messiah (pronounced "moshiach" in Hebrew) must meet the following requirements. He must:

Be an observant Jewish man descended from the house of King David

Be an ordinary human being (as opposed to the Son of God)

Bring peace to the world

Gather all Jews back into Israel

Rebuild the ancient Temple in Jerusalem

Unite humanity in the worship of the Jewish God and Torah observance

Because Jesus did not meet these requirements, from the Jewish perspective he was not the Messiah.

Christians simply put - will never accept the real truth - only what was forced upon them while growing up thus continuing the untruth about Jesus.

[GoldenWolf]

Christians simply put - will never accept the real truth - only what was forced upon them while growing up thus continuing the untruth about Jesus.

The real truth is an offense to them.

Edited January 6, 2012 by HavocWing

[+Link of Hyrule]

I had a copy of that essay, PA, but also lost it when my previous computer went *Bang*, and unfortunately I am very lazy/absent-minded when it comes to backing up the data.

That's ok, Leo. It seems I emailed a copy to my dad once and he still had a copy. Unfortunately it's an older version of the essay so it doesn't include a lot of the edits and additions I made over the years since I first wrote it. But it's better than nothing. If the OP is interested in this, I'll PM him a copy of the essay.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Christians simply put - will never accept the real truth - only what was forced upon them while growing up thus continuing the untruth about Jesus.

There's a lot of generalisations happening in this thread. First from the OP, now this. Funny that I'm a Christian yet I was not raised in a Christian household. Therefore Christian doctrine was not "forced upon me while growing up". The first time I'd even heard of Jesus was when I was 12 years old, and I didn't convert to Christianity until I was 19 (or 20, can't recall the exact age).

Doesn't that kind of blow your statement here out of the water?

[The Living Ghost Story]

Stated simply, the Jewish view of Jesus of Nazareth is that he was an ordinary Jewish man and preacher living during the Roman occupation of the Holy Land in the first century C.E. The Romans executed him - and also executed many other nationalistic and religious Jews - for speaking out against Roman authority and abuses.

Was Jesus the Messiah According to Jewish Beliefs?

After the death of Jesus, his followers - at the time a small sect of former Jews known as the Nazarenes - claimed he was the Messiah prophesied in Jewish texts and that he would soon return to fulfill the acts required of the Messiah. The majority of contemporary Jews rejected this belief and Judaism as a whole continues to do so today. Eventually, Jesus became the focal point of a small Jewish religious movement that would evolve into the Christian faith.

Jews do not believe that Jesus was divine, the Son of God, or the Messiah prophesied in Jewish scriptures. He is seen as a "false messiah," meaning someone who claimed (or whose followers claimed for him) the mantle of the Messiah but who ultimately did not meet the requirements laid out in Jewish beliefs. According to Jewish scripture and belief, the true Messiah (pronounced "moshiach" in Hebrew) must meet the following requirements. He must:

Be an observant Jewish man descended from the house of King David

Be an ordinary human being (as opposed to the Son of God)

Bring peace to the world

Gather all Jews back into Israel

Rebuild the ancient Temple in Jerusalem

Unite humanity in the worship of the Jewish God and Torah observance

Because Jesus did not meet these requirements, from the Jewish perspective he was not the Messiah.

Christians simply put - will never accept the real truth - only what was forced upon them while growing up thus continuing the untruth about Jesus.

Oh really -- lets take a look at Judaism...

Do they observe and follow these commandments of the Torah?

Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32 You shall not add to the word which I commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

Judaism has replaced the Torah with Talmud, which both adds and takes away from the Torah.

Leviticus 18:5 So you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, by which a man may live if he does them; I am the Lord.

Ezekiel 18:20 The person who sins will die.

The Jews are still required by Law to observe animal sacrifices for atonement of sins, feast-days, and they are still required to observe capital punishment. Leviticus chapters 4-6, 16,17,23.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.

Isaiah 29:13 Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,

Jeremiah 8:8 How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the Lord is with us? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

[mikachan]

Ok first attempt at multi quote so bare with me lol.

A couple of pedantic points that I would argue on:

Shoel - Less of a pit, the Jewish concept was probably more of a place of nothingness. This is the place where souls dwell still in their bodies awaiting the day of judgement. However, this concept evolved with time quite considerably. By the time the gospel writers wrote the story of Lazarus and Dives it was a place where judgement was already taking place.

But still then, taking it back to souls awaiting judgement still doesn't dictate the idea of Hell. Because if i remember correctly (i havent a bible near me at the moment), but doesn't it indicate that no one goes to heaven till the end. I am sure it says something about the dead being taken up along with the believers. So if that is true or even if it is not, you can not really use this phrase to preach damnation (not saying you were).

Henry VII - The common misconception is that he was pushing Rome for a divorce. He was actually asking for announcement (bull) by the pope that due Church Law (descended from Leviticus) stating he could not marry the wife of his brother, he was not married, never married and was free to marry his "first" wife in Anne Boleyn (or Bullin as the correct family name). It may look like divorce with modern eyes but was at the time very important as it did not contravine Jesus' teaching on divorce.

I am pretty sure it was regarding Queen Catherine of Aragon, who could not bare him sons which was necessary for the lineage of the monarchy. So he had the government declare him Head of Church. Luther started a reformation in Germany for some of the same reasons as Henry 8th i.e Corruption, Idoltary, did not like the pope being above him in station etc.

Protestant Church - Mainly the Anglican and by derivation the Methodist are descended from Henry VIII seperation from Rome. Even then the Anglican church (from 16th century-18th century) was a mixture of different denominations within the same body caused by the state requirement that people take communion within the new Church, a good example of the divisions at the time is the history of how the King James Bible. I would also say more of the protestant church was decended from teachings from Martin Luther and other 15th century scholars/preachers. So to say that the protestant church was due to a King's libido is a weak point to argue.

It is not that weak a point really. The teachings may have come from Luther, that i agree with BUT when it boils down to it. Henry the 8th was only interested in one thing.....having a son and heir.....and as i said above i am sure, in fact positive, it all started properly when he was not allowed to divorce Catherine. He may have had other reasons building up inside him but as said i am positive that is what kicked it all off and made him "snap" if you like. I was taught this all the way through School and College and i can't think why it would be in numerous educational books if it is not fact. However i am happy to accept i may be wrong on that or both of us maybe right or you are right.

This may have just been a typo, but I just wanted to clarify that several of those words on your list don't actually come from Hebrew but actually from the ancient Greek texts.....

Yes it is a typo lol, i had Hebrew on the brain that day lmao.

I think it is awfully arrogant to refer to "all Christians" without actually making any reference to other groups. Tarring every person with the same brush really doesn't go down well. I understand that often it is the case that people may not know what they are talking about but if you turn up at a site that you aren't that familiar with and begin to level accusations left-right-centre, then things aren't going to go so well.

Ok, i apologise, i should have seperated out the different groups. I was raised in a Christian household, went to church and all the rest of it. I have yet to meet one christian (bar yourself, tho i did not follow if you were a christian or just raised as one) who is not a braindead moron. That being said, i would like to meet some of the more educated ones. The last christian i had a conversation with , walked upto me in the street and informed me of how my piercings where going to land me a place in Hell and tried rather too hard to convince me that it is absurd to think that humans decended from primates and that the world is only 6000 years old and man did not land on the moon because there is only the earth etc etc. This has been my experience of Christianity from the word go, people who believe that everything but the bible is false or are nasty judgemental hypocrytical characters who persecute you if you (as you put it) want to think outside of the box and seek those other answers they fear. So if i offended anyone by being to general then i apologise.

That said this first section of your post reminded me of an essay I wrote a while back (I think it was a result of something mentioned here on this website, but I can't recall right now). However, my old harddrive is no longer active (at least until I get a new power supply) and for some reason the the times I brought it up here on UM it won't download anymore. I hope I can get it back because it really goes through a lot of the points you raise, and though the final conclusion may be different to yours it does dispel the argument you raised here that Christians are "uneducated" and don't bother looking into their beliefs (though admittedly I am not one of the typical believers who are content to just hear what is said, I like to think outside the box and find answers there from time to time.

If you can find it, please send it my way, i would be very interested to read it.

~ PA

Who exactly are 'they'? You are making such a sweeping, over-generalized , and unsubstantiated statement about more than a billion individuals, of various ethnicities, cultures, and denominations living in close to a hundred different countries, yet your argument razes all cultural, historical, linguistic, and geographical differences and factors; and reduces or rather lumps diverse communities into one group referred to as 'they'. How could one judge or offer assertions about the 'degree of education/ ignorance', the nature of beliefs, the origins of religious practices' with any semblance of credibility without any empirical comparative research; and yet you are criticizing 'their' lack of research and acceptance of generalizations while ignoring 'original sources'!

Read my response to the comment above yours as i explain why i do not have a very good view of Christianity over all and i also apologised for any offense caused to those who are not sheep.

Edited January 6, 2012 by mikachan

[thewatchman7]

to be fair i dont think it makes them uneducated.

sometimes i think they are given information and accept it as gods word without looking deeper into it.

[libstaK]

to be fair i dont think it makes them uneducated.

sometimes i think they are given information and accept it as gods word without looking deeper into it.

to be even more fair, I don't think the misguided over generalised view that christians are uneducated or mistaken is entirely due to those that are not christian having a myopic narrow view of what "christianity" encompasses. It is also a view pervaded by a lack of education of the full and colourful history of christianity but very often (broadly generalised ) instead based on cherry picking (and therefore being incorrectly affronted by) particular texts within the bible without due consideration of the evolution of thought and the historical and environmental context of the statements themselves - which many christians (broadly generalised) do understand to be the case and therefore find ridiculous to hear quoted in the context they are so often incorrectly quoted in.

Pot and kettle is what it boils down to, when it comes to the judgement game I have found that most often both are equally black.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Anyone who ask this kind of question is uneducated. History of Christianity is history of knowledge. They didnt read "Origins" but they were not a fools.

[DENNISSTARR]

mikachan...I had been in your shoes somewhat. I at age ten accepted Christ but once there found nothing but hypocrites and my questions were answered by the Sunday school teachers as "it's in the Bible". I could not believe in something just because they said so. Later I studied the original group of texts called the Bible and found good sound message and some surface history, metaphors and principles to live by. But in the end, the Bible or any other faith text, with all of it's good points, was developed as a tool to govern people through their need to believe in something bigger than themselves. A good tool it is. It gives direction and answers to those who will not or can not explore what it is that is bigger than themselves or explore themselves as to how big they actually are. A tool that controls the masses. Religion is that...mass control over minds.

The bible also includes clues to the true history of our origins but hides them in plain sight and with dogma. Look into other ancient texts and learn a few more pieces of the history of our world. IMO.

Edited January 6, 2012 by DENNISSTARR

[RavenHawk]

Wow! There is so much generalization and lack of understanding in this thread; no wonder non believers have tons of excuses. I really don’t care if one believes or not, but I do ask that people understand it. Where to start? I’ll probably start rambling. Knowing the meaning of words is not the ultimate in being educated or enlightened. You must also understand the history, tradition, and substance in the text. Just knowing some definitions and not going beyond that is truly being uneducated. Saying that “it’s in the Bible” or “GOD did it” is not an end all – be all answer to questions. It’s still up to you to find the answers. Much of it is all about you finding your own answers, not someone telling you what the answers are. But that’s not to say that there is no value in instruction. No doubt that there are Christians that are naïve and will only follow someone else’s interpretation and never push the bounds of enlightenment. But don’t get this confused with people that have a simple faith. All that is necessary is that you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. All else is fluff. And the Catholic and Protestant churches are full of fluff. There really is nothing wrong with that, just don’t go fanatical. The Earth being 6000 years old (or not), Mother Mary being a perpetual virgin (or not), Jesus and Mary Magdalene not being husband and wife (or not) all mean nothing. There are highly educated scholars that are of the clergy and not that have a simple faith. The scripture has not changed in over 2000 years and perhaps longer. It is not the scripture that controls the masses but the interpretation that a church imposes on the people. Believing that Judas was not the traitor but Jesus’ Armor-bearer or that Paul was a homophobe may be heresy in the Catholic Church but are not anti Message of Christ. We do not follow the Law of the OT. There is no way because more than half only applies to the nation of Israel. Jesus fulfilled the Law so that more than just Jews could follow him. And all it takes is a confession of faith to be called Christian. The Law can be boiled down to respect. Respect for yourself, respect for others, and respect of GOD. When we learn this then the Law is on our hearts. I do believe in a Hell but the West is so hung up in opposites, we miss other concepts. Instead of Hell being the opposite of Heaven, Hell is the absence of GOD. We think that hot and cold are opposites but in actuality, 0 Kelvin is the absence of heat. And to be in Hell is to be absent in the presence of GOD. Think of someone who is a quadriplegic, blind, and deaf. But their mind is alive and active. Not being able to communicate or sense is Hell. The absence of GOD is just that. As far as the Devil being an individual in our imagery, I won’t argue that *he* isn’t. But evil comes into this world because of us. The Devil can only tempt us to do evil. Be it telling a white lie to killing someone (having a lack of respect). But with 7 billion people on this planet, the evil builds to a critical mass that it takes on a life of its own.

[DENNISSTARR]

Wow! There is so much generalization and lack of understanding in this thread; no wonder non believers have tons of excuses. I really don’t care if one believes or not, but I do ask that people understand it. Where to start? I’ll probably start rambling. Knowing the meaning of words is not the ultimate in being educated or enlightened. You must also understand the history, tradition, and substance in the text. Just knowing some definitions and not going beyond that is truly being uneducated. Saying that “it’s in the Bible” or “GOD did it” is not an end all – be all answer to questions. It’s still up to you to find the answers. Much of it is all about you finding your own answers, not someone telling you what the answers are. But that’s not to say that there is no value in instruction. No doubt that there are Christians that are naïve and will only follow someone else’s interpretation and never push the bounds of enlightenment. But don’t get this confused with people that have a simple faith. All that is necessary is that you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. All else is fluff. And the Catholic and Protestant churches are full of fluff. There really is nothing wrong with that, just don’t go fanatical. The Earth being 6000 years old (or not), Mother Mary being a perpetual virgin (or not), Jesus and Mary Magdalene not being husband and wife (or not) all mean nothing. There are highly educated scholars that are of the clergy and not that have a simple faith. The scripture has not changed in over 2000 years and perhaps longer. It is not the scripture that controls the masses but the interpretation that a church imposes on the people. Believing that Judas was not the traitor but Jesus’ Armor-bearer or that Paul was a homophobe may be heresy in the Catholic Church but are not anti Message of Christ. We do not follow the Law of the OT. There is no way because more than half only applies to the nation of Israel. Jesus fulfilled the Law so that more than just Jews could follow him. And all it takes is a confession of faith to be called Christian. The Law can be boiled down to respect. Respect for yourself, respect for others, and respect of GOD. When we learn this then the Law is on our hearts. I do believe in a Hell but the West is so hung up in opposites, we miss other concepts. Instead of Hell being the opposite of Heaven, Hell is the absence of GOD. We think that hot and cold are opposites but in actuality, 0 Kelvin is the absence of heat. And to be in Hell is to be absent in the presence of GOD. Think of someone who is a quadriplegic, blind, and deaf. But their mind is alive and active. Not being able to communicate or sense is Hell. The absence of GOD is just that. As far as the Devil being an individual in our imagery, I won’t argue that *he* isn’t. But evil comes into this world because of us. The Devil can only tempt us to do evil. Be it telling a white lie to killing someone (having a lack of respect). But with 7 billion people on this planet, the evil builds to a critical mass that it takes on a life of its own.

When a child asks a question the answer should not be "look it up yourself".

Hell can be an individual thing.

Faith in Jesus is not the only road to enlightment.

However, the Respect for yourself, respect for others is universal law.

[+and-then]

I am a Christian and I am not offended in the least by anyone who chooses another path. I do wonder though, why some people need to denigrate Christians just for their faith. It's not easy being a person of faith but living without it in the world would be worse I think

[ambelamba]

Truth be told most people, Christians or not, have very limited knowledge in religion and spirituality. Average people are NOTHING like UM members.

[Yogigizmo]

I am fairly new to this site, that being said, I am finding it very sad, and disheartening; that with so many views, with all the different religions that are represented; that there is so much judgment passed on alot of the topics.

To live is human, to learn is divine.

[Sevastiel]

Ok, so i have been seeing various posts from what i would call "Hardcore" Christian doomsayers and preachers \

...

Misleading topic header.

Your first sentence (extract above) indicates what you're really itching to fuss about.

Many Christians are educated - but those aren't the ones you're like to see agitating you (though "they" occasionally irritate me too). At the very least, they're the ones who realize that attempting to convert you is next to pointless, and thus have better things to do with their time since there are others who are as yet redeemable (or "greener pastures" to tend to - whichever makes you feel better).

(And to avoid giving another social group a bad rap: No, I'm not a Christian - just objective psychoanalysis.)

Point of note: I've discarded the rest of your discussion on the basis of noted bias. Honesty goes a long way, however painful (case in point).

[Lion6969]

Wow all Christians are uneducated because they are not biblical scholars! Lmao!!!!

A well constructed OP though and a fun read. I believe the person thinks he is well aquainted with hebrew. I don't think so, most of the words used were the Greek translations of the Hebrew and unfortunately the oldest source as a whole is the Greek (much is lost in translation). The original Aramaic and Hebrew are pretty rich languages, at least in comparison with Greek, thus the translator would have chosen the words in Greek which best fit the original terms for hell etc. The Greek does refer to them as hell etc based on translation, but hold different literal and contextual meanings in it's own right as a language too. Once you understand this you realise that those words you quoted were the best fit in Greek to the original, that does NLT mean the original was the identical to the translated Greek because in some instance there are no equivalents in the language the text has been translated to ie to Greek. So they chose the words which best fit the original literally and contextually.

It's quite easy to label any group as uneducated just because they lack scholarly knowledge etc.

[Mr Walker]

I just want to point out tha the oP topic is a generalisation. It is completely untrue in Australaia, where the more educated you are, the more likely you are to be religious. That speaks both to the forms of religion in Australia and religions relationship with the state and people; but also to the nature of education in australia. About 25 % of chldren in Austrlaia are educated in church schools. These tend to produce the top professionals academics, politicians, etc in the country because of the exclusivity available in the schools, and because generations of wealthy and powerful people have sent their kids to these schools.

Religion is not highly regarded in Australia but neither is it looked down on. It is seen as an important part of the social fabric; running schools, hospitals, old folks homes/retirement villages, publishing houses, major health food factories, along with second hand charity shops in every town and suburb in Australia.

It is seen as a major provider of social services and even runs employment services. Often all these things are done in partnership with, and using funding from the govt, which sees it as a cheap and efficient service provider.

A private/church education can lend Kudos to a CV, but also many Australians, even atheists, see a need for their kids to get a spiritual, values based, education, which is not allowed in a government school.

Oh silly me, the poster meant uneducated in biblical matters.

That may be so. However it is only really relevant to a person who wants to live their life based on biblical christianity. There are a myriad forms of christianity , many other good religions, and a person can walk with god without any formal religon or teachings. So yes if you want to particullarly be, and live as, a biblical based christian, then you should know and understand the bible contextually, through its evolutionary process of writing and selection, and as a literary piece of work.

No wonder most people cant do this.

Ps I agre with you about some of your points but not others Hell does not presntly exist No one today is in either hell or heaven All dead human sare presently sleeping The words and overal context of the bible make this crystal clear Nad yes tha tpart of the message has beencorrupted I stick with satan as the great deceiver Aself willed angel inopposito to god who took one third of the angels with him in an all out wa r with god tha tis not yet concluded.

But you CANNOT succesfully, or rationaly, or morally, impose belief based laws from 4000 years a go on to people today, just because a book says so. Even god said that the laws are made for man, they must be obeyed from love not legalism or righteousness.

The laws serve a social purose only when they are relevant to a society. ANd so laws about slaves are not relevant today. Laws about the place and relationship of women to men, that worked 4000 years ago, are evil if applied to day. Ans so on. God is a living, loving, god.

Keep him in your heart and mind at all times, and he will steer you right. When used as a form of dogma, the bible can be a tool of oppression. But it is meant to be a book of truth and liberation . If it does not set you free, then you are missreading it.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Mr Walker