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Damrod

Rick Perry defends the 4 marines

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I don't think what those marines did was right in any way and they should be punished but I do admire Rick Perry for speaking his opinion. I think that is why he isn't in the lead really anywhere for the candidacy, people want all the "bad things" to be handled they just don't want to know how.

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Wait - we're upset because some Marines urinated on a dead enemy that, while alive, would have cut their heads off? People get all silly about war. War is about destroying an enemy's will to fight and THAT is what I find wrong with their actions. It only hardens the resolve of the nutjobs we're fighting. Personally I could give a rat's a** what they do to a dead body...just glad they killed them. :tu:

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From the standpoint of having been in the Army in the region, having been shot at, and having shot at others I think that the frustration, rage and hate that builds up towards people that try to kill you is understandable. A huge majority of the people here have never ever been in those circumstances so it is unfair to judge something that you do not understand or have ever experienced.

Those that we are fighting against in the area do not need a reason to shoot at us...just by being there we have become targets, so those that say this will be used as a reason to attack us are partially correct but in the big scope of things it won't make a difference.

Again, I can understand why people would think this is really wrong, and they are entitled to their opinion. When you have people go out of their way to kill you, and use women and children to do it, it can be rather upsetting and rather personal and after getting in a skirmish expressing your anger can get a bit weird.

Not that it is an excuse, or makes it any better, but looking at any combat at any time in history, there will always be personal choices that are made that are not the best idea, but in the midst of war seem like a reasonable choice.

When you send people out to kill people for a living, odd things happen. That is never going to change.

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From the standpoint of having been in the Army in the region, having been shot at, and having shot at others I think that the frustration, rage and hate that builds up towards people that try to kill you is understandable. A huge majority of the people here have never ever been in those circumstances so it is unfair to judge something that you do not understand or have ever experienced.

Those that we are fighting against in the area do not need a reason to shoot at us...just by being there we have become targets, so those that say this will be used as a reason to attack us are partially correct but in the big scope of things it won't make a difference.

Again, I can understand why people would think this is really wrong, and they are entitled to their opinion. When you have people go out of their way to kill you, and use women and children to do it, it can be rather upsetting and rather personal and after getting in a skirmish expressing your anger can get a bit weird.

Not that it is an excuse, or makes it any better, but looking at any combat at any time in history, there will always be personal choices that are made that are not the best idea, but in the midst of war seem like a reasonable choice.

When you send people out to kill people for a living, odd things happen. That is never going to change.

I would think that when your nations is branded as such scum, not only murdering women and children but uringating on their fathers, it would cause them shame and anger to be associated with such gutless and degenerate acts. Can you really see "John Wayne" doing those things, or justifying them?

Your government has really dumbed you down not only in terms of knowing what is going on and why (oil pipeline) but as to how utterly sinful murdering women and children for money really is.

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While it's understandable that tensions and tempers are high in any combat situation, it's still clearly a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and SHOULD NOT be dismissed with the mindset of "they made a mistake, big deal" ala Rick Perry. We have Codes of Conduct for a reason and those four Marines violated them. What they did was illegal and they should expect to face the consequences of their actions.

cormac

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Oh well, that's 4 votes he's got.

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I would think that when your nations is branded as such scum, not only murdering women and children but uringating on their fathers, it would cause them shame and anger to be associated with such gutless and degenerate acts. Can you really see "John Wayne" doing those things, or justifying them?

Your government has really dumbed you down not only in terms of knowing what is going on and why (oil pipeline) but as to how utterly sinful murdering women and children for money really is.

It is really too bad you don't feel comfortable expressing yourself and letting us know how you really feel.

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It is really too bad you don't feel comfortable expressing yourself and letting us know how you really feel.

:w00t:

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I could not really read it. I remember seeing a bit in the news when it came out. I cried a bit over it. I know it is not tough and warlike. But I cry for what our world has become. I cry for the soldiers there. I cry for the families here and the people there. Then I can't cry more. So I can only pray. So I pray that God will find a way into their heart. To heal them from the damage that is there. And they should be prosecuted and yes the law must be followed. But I do pray for peace for everyone.

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Don't cry for what the world has become. The world was always like this. You just didn't see it till now.

On the bright side, it is getting better. War has gotten to the point when you can't even p*** on a corpse without getting into trouble. Compared to what used to be referred to as "the horrors of war", this is a shining beacon of hope for humanity.

I agree the soldiers should be prosecuted, simply because it is the politically expedient thing to do. Once people see that the trial is set, and their interest wanders to the next news story, the case be either dropped or counted as time served.

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Rick Perry also said at the last Republican debate that he'd send the marines right back to Iraq.

*****

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I could not really read it. I remember seeing a bit in the news when it came out. I cried a bit over it. I know it is not tough and warlike. But I cry for what our world has become. I cry for the soldiers there. I cry for the families here and the people there. Then I can't cry more. So I can only pray. So I pray that God will find a way into their heart. To heal them from the damage that is there. And they should be prosecuted and yes the law must be followed. But I do pray for peace for everyone.

As aquatus said p***ing on a body is nothing compared to what has been done in the past. Hell it's nothing compared to what happens every single day. The very fact that this even made the news at all speaks very highly of how far we've come. But I'm guessing you're just being overdramatic.

Anyway on the soldiers themselves it was a massively stupid thing to do but even worst is them taping the action. How stupid are these morons? And then put it out on the internet? Well now they're stupidity has gotten them caught and they'll be punished for their actions.

And as for Perry while he is playing to his base seems a dumb move given how angry everyone is about this.

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I can see that peeing on a corpse is not right, and the guys being reprimanded.. But I'm not sure where criminal charges come into it?

So I need some enlightening. What is the criminal charge for peeing on a corpse?

Edited by rashore

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While it's understandable that tensions and tempers are high in any combat situation, it's still clearly a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and SHOULD NOT be dismissed with the mindset of "they made a mistake, big deal" ala Rick Perry. We have Codes of Conduct for a reason and those four Marines violated them. What they did was illegal and they should expect to face the consequences of their actions.

cormac

I agree with that. Even though in the grand scheme of things it isn't that big of a deal, America ( and its military ) should hold itself to the highest standards possible. Not because we have to, but because we want to.

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I can see that peeing on a corpse is not right, and the guys being reprimanded.. But I'm not sure where criminal charges come into it?

So I need some enlightening. What is the criminal charge for peeing on a corpse?

Not completely sure. Providing aid to the enemy since these morons posted this foolishness online, giving the Taliban a chance to paint all Americans as thugs?

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Not completely sure. Providing aid to the enemy since these morons posted this foolishness online, giving the Taliban a chance to paint all Americans as thugs?

This is what is most upsetting to me. How can you as a soldier put other soldiers at risk this way. Yes you are in a military zone. But there is a difference between being shot and tortured and shot. When a person is decapitated. They do it in a horrific way. And these soldiers must know. That these pictures could be spread around so quickly. So it shows you. That they didn't care. This must be criminal to set an example.

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While it's understandable that tensions and tempers are high in any combat situation, it's still clearly a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and SHOULD NOT be dismissed with the mindset of "they made a mistake, big deal" ala Rick Perry. We have Codes of Conduct for a reason and those four Marines violated them. What they did was illegal and they should expect to face the consequences of their actions.

I dont think Rick Perry is disagreeing with that. He is saying they should be punished within the military. What he's also saying, though, is that the actions shouldn't be considered criminal.

Maybe an example will clarify things: When a soldier has a negligent discharge of his firearm, he is charged. He is punished. The charge, however, isn't considered a criminal charge.

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Not completely sure. Providing aid to the enemy since these morons posted this foolishness online, giving the Taliban a chance to paint all Americans as thugs?

Using that line of logic ("Providing aid to the enemy"), they'd be charged for treason. Hardly applicable.

Speaking on the subject of dead enemy fighters... anyone remember that news clip from the early days of the war in either Iraq or Afghanistan (I cant remember) that showed a wounded enemy combattant squirming on the ground, and a US marine/soldier using him for target practice? Its funny how theres a bigger outcry over urinating on dead bodies than there was for killing a wounded enemy combattant.

This is what is most upsetting to me. How can you as a soldier put other soldiers at risk this way. Yes you are in a military zone. But there is a difference between being shot and tortured and shot. When a person is decapitated. They do it in a horrific way. And these soldiers must know. That these pictures could be spread around so quickly. So it shows you. That they didn't care. This must be criminal to set an example.

Let he who has experienced combat cast the first stone.

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I can see that peeing on a corpse is not right, and the guys being reprimanded.. But I'm not sure where criminal charges come into it?

So I need some enlightening. What is the criminal charge for peeing on a corpse?

Well, as an actual criminal charge, it goes back to the 1929 Geneva convention, where it states that you are not allowed to abuse or mutilate an enemy corpse. The idea behind it was to stem the practice of trophy collection (scalps, skulls, ears, etc), however, it does include intentional desecration. Most armies, however, will not prosecute their soldiers under Geneva convention rules. Chances are that they would be charged with the general military catch-all of "Conduct Unbecoming...", which was intentionally designed to give the military court the flexibility to deal with isolated and contextual discipline issues.

Interestingly, there is something that, for lack of a better word, goes under the unspoken rules of land warfare, and that is that isolated acts of desecration should not be tolerated, due to the effect it has on discipline and individual morality. In other words, desecration for a tactical purpose is considered a valid wartime act, however desecration for "petty" reasons is recognized as a failure of character.

Edited by aquatus1

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From the standpoint of having been in the Army in the region, having been shot at, and having shot at others I think that the frustration, rage and hate that builds up towards people that try to kill you is understandable. A huge majority of the people here have never ever been in those circumstances so it is unfair to judge something that you do not understand or have ever experienced.

Those that we are fighting against in the area do not need a reason to shoot at us...just by being there we have become targets, so those that say this will be used as a reason to attack us are partially correct but in the big scope of things it won't make a difference.

Again, I can understand why people would think this is really wrong, and they are entitled to their opinion. When you have people go out of their way to kill you, and use women and children to do it, it can be rather upsetting and rather personal and after getting in a skirmish expressing your anger can get a bit weird.

Not that it is an excuse, or makes it any better, but looking at any combat at any time in history, there will always be personal choices that are made that are not the best idea, but in the midst of war seem like a reasonable choice.

When you send people out to kill people for a living, odd things happen. That is never going to change.

But But aren't there RULES of conduct they are supposed to follow? War is not a free-for-all. And that's the real deal here. They didn't follow the rules they swore to uphold. And it could get them 30 years in prison. This is not about how they felt or the circumstances. We had soldiers kills civilians in Vietnam and they were prosecuted. Perhaps their circumstances will be taken into account in sentencing. but come on, they broke the rules....

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I dont think Rick Perry is disagreeing with that. He is saying they should be punished within the military. What he's also saying, though, is that the actions shouldn't be considered criminal.

ISn't that up to the prosecution?

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But But aren't there RULES of conduct they are supposed to follow? War is not a free-for-all. And that's the real deal here. They didn't follow the rules they swore to uphold. And it could get them 30 years in prison. This is not about how they felt or the circumstances. We had soldiers kills civilians in Vietnam and they were prosecuted. Perhaps their circumstances will be taken into account in sentencing. but come on, they broke the rules....

Sure. But this isn't one of them. Rules of conduct (heck, even rules of engagement) are about broad themes, not specific actions. You can't get very specific out in the field.

One of my biggest complaints about military training is that it isn't holistic enough. We are at a point in today's military that we do not have to rush manufacture a soldier; we should actively focus on making the lifetime soldiers we do have into intelligent killing machines, rather than just encourage the few who do it themselves.

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Sure. But this isn't one of them. Rules of conduct (heck, even rules of engagement) are about broad themes, not specific actions. You can't get very specific out in the field.

Others seem to disagree

"The behavior depicted in the video is wholly inconsistent with the high standards of conduct and warrior ethos that we have demonstrated throughout our history," said Gen. James Amos, the Marine Corps commandant.

Panetta said such behavior is "entirely inappropriate for members of the United States military" and those responsible will be held accountable.

The act violates the Geneva Conventions governing conduct in war, said Michael Newton, a law professor at Vanderbilt University. The conventions outlaw the desecration of war dead.

Army Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, said he was "deeply disturbed" by the actions depicted in the video.

"Actions like those are not only illegal but are contrary to the values of a professional military and serve to erode the reputation of our joint force," he said.

source Edited by ninjadude

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Others seem to disagree

They aren't really disagreeing, though, are they?

They are offended. They do believe there has been some breach of conduct. But they are not specifying what rule was broken.

They can't. Because there isn't a specific rule beyond the two that I already mentioned. And, ultimately, it is those two rules that these people are invoking. Conduct unbecoming. Geneva convention. Both addressing themes, but not specifics.

War isn't logical enough to submit itself to specifics.

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