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CakeOrDeath

Has any "Evidence" Baffled Real Scientists?

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Cant be brain function when your body temp is lowered, your blood is drained from your body, heart stopped, and all electrical activity in the brain is stopped, yet you still know about conversations when you were "dead".

As of yet there is no evidence that its a brain function... That's what's baffling about it.

Seeker79, are you referring to a particular case in the description you gave above, especially the bolded bits - reference please?

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That may be true as far as science being able to bring back an almost dead person. Been there done that. When the brain dies or losses oxygen to an extent the mind goes through millions if not billions of shut downs. What happens during that process is known as the brian being told to shut down. What one see`s is a guess after death.

For a patient to die in a hospital room and being able to look down and see there body is a last dream effect as when the come back so to speak they know they were in a hospital room. Logic states that. However the vast majority myself included on death do not sence anything but a dark silience like sleep.

NDE in hospitals can most assuradly be attributed to a drug given and the mind going into an unconcious state hence mean a dream like experience. NDE`s and what the mind does when it shuts down is not really anything to go on as it is subjective.

Science can explain what a mind does when one dies. NDE`s are a side effect when science brings you back.

Can I ask why would god have you die then have man bring you back.

Well that's a nice assumption but assumptions don't cut it. Scientists including doctors don't operate off of assumptions even if they sound good. The fact remaines that many many doctors who are scientists are baffled and go on record saying so how people that are in death like circumstances know certain things that they should not and usually report it from floating obove their beds. It's so baffling that real scientists are proposing some very real experiments in hospitals to test these events. One is placing a certain simple shape on a picture facing up at angles that can only be seen while looking down. If enough hospitals participate then we can see if ndeers are really looking down from a diffrent perspective.

Then we might have a real statistical analysis one way or the other. As of now the brain theory/hypothesis is just a materialistic theory with no real support.

I don't know the mind of god. Honestly with the capabilities of infinity I imagine it matters very little why and when we pass this life. I'm don't think the great spirit is concerned with that. Only we are. Id bet it's kinda like a birthday.

Edit:... And my bets are based on two things., real experiences or insanity. Take your pick,

Edited by Seeker79

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Seeker79, are you referring to a particular case in the description you gave above, especially the bolded bits - reference please?

Yes I am. I don't know it off hand. Her temp was lowered as fairly new proceedure mimicking hypothermia for brain surgery. I'll find it latter and get back to you.

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Here's a link to an NDE where the body temperature was reduced to 60 degrees, heart and breathing stopped, and blood drained from the brain: NDE Evidence

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Here's a link to an NDE where the body temperature was reduced to 60 degrees, heart and breathing stopped, and blood drained from the brain: NDE Evidence

Yup. That's it. Thanks.

So that should answer the op's question. Yes there are things that baffle scientists. not to mention gravity, particle wave duality, the quantum eraser, and other things.

Edited by Seeker79

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This forum is such an excellent resource. I've been reading for years and my personal beliefs have actually shifted thanks to contributors.

People like Sakari, Mulder etc. have really helped me think more critically about things around me. My question then is this, are there any cases or

evidence that have truly baffled those in the scientific community? I've seen some really interesting topics on various incidents in the UFO forums,

but nothing of that nature in the paranormal area.

This seems odd to me, because there are so many reports of supernatural activity and so many believers, you would think there would be a plethora of

evidence to look at.

I don't know how I missed this.....

As for Hauntings, Exorcisms, Poltergeists ( oh wait )......No.Science is not involved with EVP,s , Ghost Box's, etc....There has not been any evidence at all even close to strong enough to get a University, or Private sector to push in loads of money and time to research.....There have been other sides of this, in the psychology side of it.

Now, some will say there are a " few " places that offer classes into these things, I believe there are a few.None of them offer anything as in credits towards a PHD.

Ok, the Poltergeist thing.......I have a topic somewhere here about the movie " The Entity "......It was based on a true story.

In that topic ( it died ) I started to find some things, such as UCLA was involved, and I forget most of it.It all was a dead end for me......Let me find the topic.

Read through this one, it is the closest I could find to a actual Science investigation.....Key word being " closest ".

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=190580&st=0

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I don't know how I missed this.....

As for Hauntings, Exorcisms, Poltergeists ( oh wait )......No.Science is not involved with EVP,s , Ghost Box's, etc....There has not been any evidence at all even close to strong enough to get a University, or Private sector to push in loads of money and time to research.....There have been other sides of this, in the psychology side of it.

Now, some will say there are a " few " places that offer classes into these things, I believe there are a few.None of them offer anything as in credits towards a PHD.

Ok, the Poltergeist thing.......I have a topic somewhere here about the movie " The Entity "......It was based on a true story.

In that topic ( it died ) I started to find some things, such as UCLA was involved, and I forget most of it.It all was a dead end for me......Let me find the topic.

Read through this one, it is the closest I could find to a actual Science investigation.....Key word being " closest ".

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=190580&st=0

Thanks for the response and link Sakari. I currently fall into the skeptic side of the sandbox, but I do like looking at the various cases (ufo stuff mainly) that can't be immediately dismissed. Alot of the interesting UFO ones usually point toward slightly archaic/unreliable tech (old radar with odd returns) or even turn out to be natural phenomena that we discover later. (plasma, sprites etc.) But it's still interesting.

The paranormal stuff always has great "stories" from individuals and personal accounts, but not much in the way of investigated cases like UFOs. At least there actually was "project blue book."

Off topic and sorry if rambling, but how did "ghost hunters" decide what scientific instruments would some how indicate ghostly presences? I find this trend to be super silly, I'd bet more than half of the "professional hunters" don't even know what the hardware is actually used for and what the readings mean.

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Wow finally!

I just finished the entity threads. I am going to read that research journal if the link is still good. I do question the one female doctor from UCLA she had quite the past leading up to that ponit. But Dr. Taff seemed pretty legit.

So, did you find something out through your investigating that made you "close the book" on this one or is it still puzzling?

This is by far the most interesting case I have heard about. Thanks for pointing it out.

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Wow finally!

I just finished the entity threads. I am going to read that research journal if the link is still good. I do question the one female doctor from UCLA she had quite the past leading up to that ponit. But Dr. Taff seemed pretty legit.

So, did you find something out through your investigating that made you "close the book" on this one or is it still puzzling?

This is by far the most interesting case I have heard about. Thanks for pointing it out.

I really could not find anything else out, I even emailed UCLA ( forget what department ) and no response......I kind of put it aside and found other things I guess......I still think about though.

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That's a negative.

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That's a negative.

That's pretty wild. That case is the perfect example of what I meant when I said, "you'd think there would be more like it." Not necessarily

proof positive, but more intriguing cases like this one, that get looked into by atleast somewhat legitimate investigators.

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... Secondly the observation about the camera, if you are truly transfixed, as you would be by something altogether other, you don't avert your eyes from it.

Hi there... new to the UM board and wanted to comment. Right you are Habitat. I want to confirm a point here... on the paranormal experiences I believe I've had. The first one sent me running, literally, in fear, for something like 1/4 mile before I stopped to get ahold of myself. Took me months to shake it too, I was creeped out for a long time afterwards. Later, years in fact, I'd had others that glued me to the spot I stood, eyes agape, heart pounding. I swear it's the same thing a deer in a headlight must experience. When I could think again, and it took awhile, I began making deals with "it" about not harming me. I have no explanations for the experiences. Although they did send me off on a reading and research binge, only to leave me months and months later simply accepting what I'd seen and not gleaning any solid truth about it other than that's what I saw. I'm a believer today though. Favoring interdimensional & ultraterrestrial theories. Am enjoying the UM board ppl, thanks for the stuff you're sharing and critiquing and humoring. I'm always interested in those who staunchly do NOT believe, or rely heavily on science as we know it today (what is shared with us) I am so curious about why non-believers stay on forums like this for years and years. Somethings up with that, yeah? Leftcoastgal

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Hi there... new to the UM board and wanted to comment. Right you are Habitat. I want to confirm a point here... on the paranormal experiences I believe I've had. The first one sent me running, literally, in fear, for something like 1/4 mile before I stopped to get ahold of myself. Took me months to shake it too, I was creeped out for a long time afterwards. Later, years in fact, I'd had others that glued me to the spot I stood, eyes agape, heart pounding. I swear it's the same thing a deer in a headlight must experience. When I could think again, and it took awhile, I began making deals with "it" about not harming me. I have no explanations for the experiences. Although they did send me off on a reading and research binge, only to leave me months and months later simply accepting what I'd seen and not gleaning any solid truth about it other than that's what I saw. I'm a believer today though. Favoring interdimensional & ultraterrestrial theories. Am enjoying the UM board ppl, thanks for the stuff you're sharing and critiquing and humoring. I'm always interested in those who staunchly do NOT believe, or rely heavily on science as we know it today (what is shared with us) I am so curious about why non-believers stay on forums like this for years and years. Somethings up with that, yeah? Leftcoastgal

Nothing at all up with that. I don't even consider myself a non-believer. I am "looking" for that case that confirms or atleast produces a testable theory in relation to the phenomena.

I actually believe "paranormal" experiences to often be the result of enviormental impact on our brains from various sources. I am not a scientist, and actually not all that bright, so my ideas don't even constitute theory. But my hope is that "real" science will scoff less at the tall tales and look for things behind them. You can quote me on the fact that I think Geology will someday lead to more "ghost discovery" than parapsychology.

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Hi there... new to the UM board and wanted to comment. Right you are Habitat. I want to confirm a point here... on the paranormal experiences I believe I've had. The first one sent me running, literally, in fear, for something like 1/4 mile before I stopped to get ahold of myself. Took me months to shake it too, I was creeped out for a long time afterwards. Later, years in fact, I'd had others that glued me to the spot I stood, eyes agape, heart pounding. I swear it's the same thing a deer in a headlight must experience. When I could think again, and it took awhile, I began making deals with "it" about not harming me. I have no explanations for the experiences. Although they did send me off on a reading and research binge, only to leave me months and months later simply accepting what I'd seen and not gleaning any solid truth about it other than that's what I saw. I'm a believer today though. Favoring interdimensional & ultraterrestrial theories. Am enjoying the UM board ppl, thanks for the stuff you're sharing and critiquing and humoring. I'm always interested in those who staunchly do NOT believe, or rely heavily on science as we know it today (what is shared with us) I am so curious about why non-believers stay on forums like this for years and years. Somethings up with that, yeah? Leftcoastgal

That has been asked and answered numerous times here, in many ways, but all close to the same.......And welcome to UM.

I am opposite, but also answers your question......I am fasciniated by how people can have blind faith, and believe stories with out any doubt....It really is the ignorance that I used to also have that I can not figure out. ... ( and that is not a bad word, or a flame )Almost like the movie about the world with no lying. ( forgot the name of it ).

I also like to help people, and believe it or not, I have helped quite a few people that thought they had something paranormal going on find the true answer, and they were relieved, and thanked me.....I enjoy that a lot.

I am going to work or I would link you to answer your question to a few threads, maybe tomorrow, doing a 12 hour shift, and it is a hour drive to work one way :(

Anyway, wouldn't it be kind of boring if skeptics were not allowed to be in the discussions?

Also, 99.95 of skeptics used to be " believers ", and I am one of the 99.9% ........So, I can say I am open minded, and have walked in both shoes.........

Edited by Sakari

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Baffeled science, lol, st, Johns Dance, St. Vitu's dance and

Tarantism!!! Aka dancing mania also the dance of the dead!!!! How does science explain a documented tens of thousands of people dancing in the street for weeks, until they dropped dead. Crowds of tough guys would garther to

Beat the dancers till they stopped, claiming relief from the beatings!!! If that's not a clear case of spiritual attack, what is!!! Science cannot determine what caused it, just guessed.

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Baffeled science, lol, st, Johns Dance, St. Vitu's dance and

Tarantism!!! Aka dancing mania also the dance of the dead!!!! How does science explain a documented tens of thousands of people dancing in the street for weeks, until they dropped dead. Crowds of tough guys would garther to

Beat the dancers till they stopped, claiming relief from the beatings!!! If that's not a clear case of spiritual attack, what is!!! Science cannot determine what caused it, just guessed.

Strange, all of a sudden ( after I replied in a topic you started, and mind you, I am not involved in anymore ) it seems you are replying on every topic I reply in, or start.....hmmmm

coincidence?

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Baffeled science, lol, st, Johns Dance, St. Vitu's dance and

Tarantism!!! Aka dancing mania also the dance of the dead!!!! How does science explain a documented tens of thousands of people dancing in the street for weeks, until they dropped dead. Crowds of tough guys would garther to

Beat the dancers till they stopped, claiming relief from the beatings!!! If that's not a clear case of spiritual attack, what is!!! Science cannot determine what caused it, just guessed.

Judeaous, in what way is religious fervour so difficult for you to understand? Given you are possibly the most 'religious' Pareidolian I have ever seen, I would have thought that such behaviour would be quite understandable. :P

Science doesn't EVER claim to have all the answers, and I don't think it's any surprise that it doesn't even try to completely analyse and reconcile the human mind, emotions and the interplay with intense belief and spirituality. I don't regard myself as spiritual at all, yet there are plenty of causes and people I would be willing to give my life up for. I'm no martyr and am seriously not trying to pretend I'm a hero, but I do believe in the greater good (and I've had a pretty good run to now anyway!).

Do you not have such causes/loves/beliefs in your life? If not, I feel sorry for you.

If you do, then can you tell me in what way you expect science to explain/measure/analyse your passion in an objective fashion?

Science knows its limitations.. It is only those who don't understand it (or hate it, for one of a myriad of reasons) that complain about it not being able to explain stuff, and then denigrate it.

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Well Chrisz, I've never read anywhere that st. Johns dance, st. Vitu's dance or Tarentism had anything to do with religion.  Although some dancers screamed out demonic things, I heard but as far as I'm aware not religion.  I'm sorry I missed that one on the message boards back then.  

Sukari!!!  You wrote to me::

"""Strange, all of a sudden ( after I replied in a topic you started, and mind you, I am not involved in anymore ) it seems you are replying on every topic I reply in, or start.....hmmmm

coincidence?""""""

I read that, and..... Have you ever seen Jerry Seinfeld  put on the surprised face with the mouth open, smiling!!..... That was me after reading that........  Sukari!!  Recognizing that kind of coincidence has the earmarks for paranoid thinking my man!!  If it eases your conscience, I'll try and refrain from topics you post...  I reply to a subject that interests me, I don't pay attention to "who wrote 

It".....  EEEK!!    

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Nothing at all up with that. I don't even consider myself a non-believer. I am "looking" for that case that confirms or atleast produces a testable theory in relation to the phenomena.

...You can quote me on the fact that I think Geology will someday lead to more "ghost discovery" than parapsychology.

Hi CakeorDeath - fun handle there, one day I'd like to hear your story on arriving on this for your forum name, I'm sure it's fun!

Anyway... given 'paranormal' translates to nothing more than "not scientifically explainable" ~Webster, but parapsychology translates more to psychic talents, like clairavoyants, etc. There has been plenty of study with respect to these psychic abilities, alot of them sponsored by the U.S. Gov, as well as Russia, who has invested more than the U.S. in this kind of research. so they are really different and specific things in the breakdown.

So... until such time as science is able confirm in some form of measurement that proves .... gosh, what could it prove with respect to a ghost.. maybe only the energy emanating from the apparition is measurable, like with the thermal lens they are using these days, (looking for Bigfoot, etc.) Oh, or the one case of Ghost Hunters where their thermal imager produced the heat signature of a man... here's the link to it in fact. This was interesting as it WAS tested and of course, the standard issue "cannot be explained" was subsequently applied to it.

Take a look at this one. Forward to the 7:42 minute mark to see the image I'm referring to. http://youtu.be/ciHf4WXKY4E

I will have to search for the article I read about the testing that this film underwent after the fact to determine it was not a faked image or what have you. This was a pretty good one. Of particular note is the fact that none of the Ghost Hunter people had a clue, no sensing, no la-la land baloney about a ghost, they were just shooting film and caught this heat signature. Sorry I couldn't single out the image for you. This was decent though. Let me go see if I can find that article again, about the testing of the image.

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That has been asked and answered numerous times here, in many ways, but all close to the same.......And welcome to UM.

I am opposite, but also answers your question......I am fasciniated by how people can have blind faith, and believe stories with out any doubt....It really is the ignorance that I used to also have that I can not figure out. ... ( and that is not a bad word, or a flame )Almost like the movie about the world with no lying. ( forgot the name of it ). I also like to help people, and believe it or not, I have helped quite a few people that thought they had something paranormal going on find the true answer, and they were relieved, and thanked me.....I enjoy that a lot. Also, 99.95 of skeptics used to be " believers ", and I am one of the 99.9% ........So, I can say I am open minded, and have walked in both shoes.........

Hi Sakari (hope you don't mind I shorten your post in the interest of the site & it's size and readers and their patience ; - )

Thanks for the welcome. First off by your closing line I'd guess you had what you thought was a paranormal experience only to study it and determined otherwise? Is that what you mean about walking in both shoes? Or were you left with a memory of a paranormal event that hasn't neatly been explained away, and concluded that there's a rational, non-phenomenal explanation for it, though it eludes you thus far?

While there are many who have blind faith, just as they do with religion, I don't consider myself one of them in most areas. There are areas I do extend my faith to. Spiritually, I'm fine with faith, while avoiding religion adamantly. I'm fine with life outside Earth & homosapiens as well. For me it's more like "Of course" than an "are you kidding". I'm big on doubt at the front end of most stories, I like to investigate them, just as you do I'm sure.

I must admit to being impressed by some of the researchers involved in study and gathering information about the paranormal, esp. that which involves our universe in general, certainly UFO's and ET's. I mean, these folks are not crazy people, but in fact hold degrees from the most respected institutions of higher learning in the world. Seriously, not crazies, I'm delighted they research these area of phenomena. (Russia in particular, took interest long ago in psychic phenomena and photographing energies, this sort of thing, U know all this already I'm betting). Anyway, exciting times this 21st century. I think we might learn ALOT, you know.... if we don't kill our planet off in the relatively near future. Thanks for the howdy!

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I read that, and..... Have you ever seen Jerry Seinfeld put on the surprised face with the mouth open, smiling!!..... That was me after reading that........ Sukari!! Recognizing that kind of coincidence has the earmarks for paranoid thinking my man!! If it eases your conscience, I'll try and refrain from topics you post... I reply to a subject that interests me, I don't pay attention to "who wrote

It"..... EEEK!!

I love Seinfeld.....

If it was coincidence, then by all means, discuss away......I am not paranoid one bit, and not afraid to debate with anyone. :)

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I didn't look at the clip you linked, but I will in a moment. I do want to ask about the use of various multi-spectrum cameras and sensor arrays by modern day ghost investigators. Would you agree that most "reported" ghost sightings are just that? "Sightings" If the vast majority of these encounters are visual sightings, then these entities reflect light that is visible to the human eye. Which, unless somehow our baseline understanding of image projection is off, hundreds of years after perfecting, a normal camera or video camera should indeed be able to capture an image of a ghost just as readily as the human eye, perhaps more so with zoom lense and other various enhancements....so why no good pics still?

Edited by CakeOrDeath

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Sakari and Judeousus or whatever rofl

I hate to jump into your conversation, but I am curious, can anyone fill me in or toss a link regarding these supposed "mass possession" death dances? I'm suprised I haven't read anything about these specific events. I am familair with masses stirring themselves into a religious fervor and doing some crazy stuff, but hundreds of people dancing until they fall over dead?

That certainly is intriquing stuff.

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Sakari and Judeousus or whatever rofl

I hate to jump into your conversation, but I am curious, can anyone fill me in or toss a link regarding these supposed "mass possession" death dances? I'm suprised I haven't read anything about these specific events. I am familair with masses stirring themselves into a religious fervor and doing some crazy stuff, but hundreds of people dancing until they fall over dead?

That certainly is intriquing stuff.

I can only think of Heavens Gate....... :)

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Oh, or the one case of Ghost Hunters where their thermal imager produced the heat signature of a man... here's the link to it in fact. This was interesting as it WAS tested and of course, the standard issue "cannot be explained" was subsequently applied to it.

Take a look at this one. Forward to the 7:42 minute mark to see the image I'm referring to. http://youtu.be/ciHf4WXKY4E

I will have to search for the article I read about the testing that this film underwent after the fact to determine it was not a faked image or what have you. This was a pretty good one. Of particular note is the fact that none of the Ghost Hunter people had a clue, no sensing, no la-la land baloney about a ghost, they were just shooting film and caught this heat signature. Sorry I couldn't single out the image for you. This was decent though. Let me go see if I can find that article again, about the testing of the image.

Before anyone uses Ghost Hunters ( or any TV show, or Paranormal group for that matter ) as a sign of possible evidence, one should first research the credibility of said groups....Not to mention, the " tools " they use, and how those tools really work, and what they really pick up.......Here are a couple of videos that will help you start into what I hope would be your investigation into these frauds...

Here is another example, although the coat tug should be enough...

As for your thermal footage example, I can also find you the full debunk on that if you would like.....

And do not use just youtube as evidence, research, not just the paranormal groups....

Edited by Sakari

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