Islam an offshoot of Christianity?

[odas]

You know what i'm alluding to?

The most telling word in your post is "captive" this is the first none Islamic mention of Mohammed....

The earliest documented knowledge of Muhammad stems from Byzantine sources. They indicate that both Jews and Christians saw Muhammad as a "false prophet". In the Doctrina Jacobi nuper baptizati of 634, Muhammad is portrayed as being "deceiving for do prophets come with sword and chariot? you will discover nothing true from the said prophet except human bloodshed."

Depends on what experience one had with the newcomers:

Canadian Holocaust.

By 1570 the Inquisition had established independent tribunals in Peru and the city of Mexico for the purpose of "freeing the land, which has become contaminated by Jews and heretics." Natives who did not convert to Christianity were burned like any other heretic. The Inquisition spread as far as Goa, India, where in the late 16th and early 17th centuries it took no less than 3,800 lives.

Even without the formal Inquisition present, missionary behavior clearly illustrated the belief in the supremacy of a single image of God, not in the supremacy of one all-encompassing divinity. If the image of God venerated in a foreign land was not Christian, it was simply not divine. Portuguese missionaries in the Far East destroyed pagodas, forced scholars to hide their religious manuscripts, and suppressed older customs. Mayan scribes in Central America wrote:

Before the coming of the Spaniards, there was no robbery or violence. The Spanish invasion was the beginning of tribute, the beginning of church dues, the beginning of strife.

In 1614 the Shogun of Japan, Iyeyazu, accused the missionaries of "wanting to change the government of the country and make themselves masters of the soil."

-- The Dark Side of Christian History, Helen Ellerbe

"The [Catholic] Spaniards in Mexico and Peru used to baptize Indian infants and then immediately dash their brains out; by this means they secured that these infants went to heaven."

-- Bertrand Russell

As usual, it is alway a give a little, take a little.

[hetrodoxly]

Depends on what experience one had with the newcomers:

Canadian Holocaust.

By 1570 the Inquisition had established independent tribunals in Peru and the city of Mexico for the purpose of "freeing the land, which has become contaminated by Jews and heretics." Natives who did not convert to Christianity were burned like any other heretic. The Inquisition spread as far as Goa, India, where in the late 16th and early 17th centuries it took no less than 3,800 lives.

Even without the formal Inquisition present, missionary behavior clearly illustrated the belief in the supremacy of a single image of God, not in the supremacy of one all-encompassing divinity. If the image of God venerated in a foreign land was not Christian, it was simply not divine. Portuguese missionaries in the Far East destroyed pagodas, forced scholars to hide their religious manuscripts, and suppressed older customs. Mayan scribes in Central America wrote:

Before the coming of the Spaniards, there was no robbery or violence. The Spanish invasion was the beginning of tribute, the beginning of church dues, the beginning of strife.

In 1614 the Shogun of Japan, Iyeyazu, accused the missionaries of "wanting to change the government of the country and make themselves masters of the soil."

-- The Dark Side of Christian History, Helen Ellerbe

"The [Catholic] Spaniards in Mexico and Peru used to baptize Indian infants and then immediately dash their brains out; by this means they secured that these infants went to heaven."

-- Bertrand Russell

As usual, it is alway a give a little, take a little.

Your clutching at straws here Odas i'm not a Catholic or Christian of any persuasion your post is lost on me, if you want to compare atrocities committed in the name of Christianity to those committed in the name of Islam go a head i'll post you Muslim ones from last week, to get back on track a comparison of the religions founders would be more appropriate unlike Mohammed Jesus never owed named Swords or stories told about how brave in battle he and his followers were, he never killed anyone Jesus said "turn the other cheek"

[Lion6969]

Taqiya is a very useful tool. You're allowed to deny even your faith if it will save your skin.

Taqiya is a Shiite concept, get with the program. Most of you have gleaned your knowledge about islam from the Internet and Christian missionary sites still propagating crusader myths.

[Lion6969]

I love it. Whenever I’m critical of something, I get lambasted. Here’s a clue. Just because someone is critical of something, doesn’t mean they are lambasting it. If I was going to lambast Islam, I’d start with what Ambassador Adja said to Thomas Jefferson. Then I’d go into the air of denial Muslim apologists espouse. And I guess my Christmas example was wasted on you or perhaps you are just so arrogant that you couldn’t acknowledge the similarities… Pagan roots of Christianity is ok, but like Achmed the Dead Terrorist would say, “I kel U!” if anyone dares mentions the pagan roots of Islam.

Yadi Yadi Yadi Yadi, blah blah blah.....same old stuff, but different day and a different thread. Nothing new here but the same old crusader myths gleaned by google scholars when attempted to study Islam, actually that's doing you a favour, because people like you dont study Islam but research anything that could malign it via Christian missionary websites or simply bigot sites. This rubbish is constantly regurgitated and recycled then spewed on such forums as though there is any credibity in it, in reality truly intelligent people see right through the bull and realise the claims have no foundations, academic, credibility but merely crusader myths of old!

I’ve seen the evidence for and against the moon god theory and the one thing I can say is that it is *NOT* absolutely false. It may be inaccurate but if you understood what I was saying then Allah being a moon god isn’t necessarily a bad thing. This is just where the early Semites put him. He has always been GOD; he just wasn’t recognized as such until Mohammed. Do you understand?

Clearly you don't understand the academic studies related to this, I guarantee you dont even know the names of the original perpertrators of this myth, who were Christian missionaries by the way (obviously had no axe to grind....lol). They lambasted the contemporary studies based off those missionaries so much that the author (I bet you don't even know the name here too), they exposed his fabrication of archeological evidence, doctoring, mistranslating and numerous errors. It has no value and allah was never worshipped as a moon god.

Now some factual history for you, before the advent of muhammed Arabia was populated by mainly pagans, atheists, some Jews and Christians and a group called hanifis, who claimed they followed Abraham and were strictly monotheist. Even the pagans with their pantheons of gods had a belief in a supreme god, the true god, the rest of their pagan idols were classed as Demi gods, this one superior god was always known as Allah. All muhammed did and said to them was to leave the false Demi gods and worship Allah the abrahamic god alone. You see you have no knowledge of Arabic, Allah as a word is only applicable to god and nothing else, ie, god can be manipulated to gods, goddess, godfather, likewise, lord, lords, or almighty, the almighty dollar etc etc. In Arabic god is illah, gods, illahi, but as soon as you that to Allah اللة, it becomes totally unique there is nothing like it in any language not just Arabic. Because Allah can't be manipulated, it's neither female nor male, it's singular, unique, nothing like it, all true qualities of the god!

Therefore it's not ok to say Allah is a pagan god or moon god, because the language shows otherwise, besides actual historical evidence does too. The moon god theory is absolutely false and utter tripe concocted deliberately and comprehensively destroyed by true academic research and factual evidence.

Islam plagiarizing Christianity is like saying that Islam is an offshoot of Christianity. Much of the Knowledge at the time was well known. So it was out there available to anyone. The real myth is having an Islamic apologist crying that it is an old Crusader myth.

Lmao!!! This is so laughable and proven otherwise on so many occasions that it's become a joke now. Firstly similarity does not mean plagiarising, you have to prove the claim. Secondly the stories which are similar, when compared, the quranic versions have no contradictions, no mistakes, and seem to correct the biblical versions or atleast that's it's claim. Why do this, if it was simply plagiarised, I mean look at the trinity, it's not even mentioned in the bible, yet the Quran mentions it and says that don't worship your god as a trinity because he is one, why such a fundamental difference when it was plagiarised from the bible. I mean seriously this just a waste of my time, no serious academics or true researchers take this tripe seriously.

As far as secularism in a Muslim nation goes is not the same as in non Muslim nations. The faith is more tightly interwoven into everyday life than it is in Christianity. Christians aren’t under the pain of death for partnering Allah with other authority or breaking the ties of kinship, etc. If you are Muslim, it doesn’t matter if you are secular or sectarian.

I don't even know what you are trying to say here, to be honest I don't even care. I find these forums lack real honesty or true researchers, it's always self created truths or let's pretend stuff. All Muslim countries are secular in their governance, legislation and economics, besides Saudi which mixes theocracy with an autocracy, thus there is no real Islamic state or nation. Those that are Muslim and secular, majority have dictators running the show either put in there by western secular states or propped up and funded to maintain the status quo.

To understand Islam and it's teachings you have to refer to the Quran and the authentic Hadith collections, you don't judge a whole faith based on it's fallible human prone to error followers. After we are all human and prone to error, those errors cannot be ascribed to Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism etc, for most if not all religions teach peace and tolerance. However only one teaches to turn the cheek in face of tyranny all the others say fight for good against evil and tyranny and if they repent forgive them.

[hetrodoxly]

I don't know if your aware that Mecca as been systematically demolished and no building older than 18c now exists, have you ever seen a photo of the Kabba without the Kiswah (cover) the building looks brand new red stone and white mortar it reminds me of a factory unit the mullahs are making sure nothing can ever be dated.

[Lion6969]

I don't know if your aware that Mecca as been systematically demolished and no building older than 18c now exists, have you ever seen a photo of the Kabba without the Kiswah (cover) the building looks brand new red stone and white mortar it reminds me of a factory unit the mullahs are making sure nothing can ever be dated.

Mecca is a city and cities are modified and rebuilt. The Kaaba has been there all the time, it too has had modifications, Walls rebuilt and even during muhammeds lifetime. That's fine it's just a direction for pray not an object of worship.

Your quote clearly illustrates your level of knowledge.

[hetrodoxly]

Mecca is a city and cities are modified and rebuilt. The Kaaba has been there all the time, it too has had modifications, Walls rebuilt and even during muhammeds lifetime. That's fine it's just a direction for pray not an object of worship.

Your quote clearly illustrates your level of knowledge.

You're a Muslim, therefore find it impossible to debate without insulting, is this taught in the mosque?

[Ahzi_Dhaka]

You're a Muslim, therefore find it impossible to debate without insulting, is this taught in the mosque?

wow someone got mad

[Lion6969]

You're a Muslim, therefore find it impossible to debate without insulting, is this taught in the mosque?

No we are told to be honest and always tell the truth no matter how harsh it maybe to the recipient, even if it's family!

As for insulting, that's funny coming from you

[hetrodoxly]

wow someone got mad

i imagine you're lion 6969

[hetrodoxly]

No we are told to be honest and always tell the truth no matter how harsh it maybe to the recipient, even if it's family!

As for insulting, that's funny coming from you

That's not true my posts are always relevant to the thread, yours are always aimed at the poster, i don't care your a Muslim and i expect no less.

[Ahzi_Dhaka]

i imagine you're lion 6969

yes, yes I am you got me you overly paranoid bigot, theres no getting past you...

[hetrodoxly]

yes, yes I am you got me you overly paranoid bigot, theres no getting past you...

Yep, Muslim.

[Lion6969]

Lmao!!!! Paranoid or what?

Hetro I don't care about your hate for Muslims, it's no bother, it will just consume you as all types of hate does.

[Ahzi_Dhaka]

Yep, Muslim.

lol if you say so jew, or xtian or whatever you are, probably a "keyboard warrior" I met one of your kind once before, pitiful fella' but hey if thats the best you can do..

[hetrodoxly]

lol if you say so jew, or xtian or whatever you are, probably a "keyboard warrior" I met one of your kind once before, pitiful fella' but hey if thats the best you can do..

Hello Lion

[+and-then]

What the two of you don't get is that no one really cares about your history. Shia,Sunni...all the same to a westerner. Your religion is your business until it begins to restrict my rights in my own country. Then it will be put back in it's place. It will never dominate America. No final solutions by haters who kill indiscriminately or hide behind the skirts of their women. The cause of political Islam is about to suffer a serious setback all because of that animal Assad. The irony is that he isn't even religious, just an old fashioned gangster. But when he eventually lashes out at Israel he's going to give them an excuse to eliminate Damascus,the hezzies in Lebanon and the Arab stepchildren in Gaza.

[Ahzi_Dhaka]

Hello Lion

I can understand that you might have a latent homosexual relationship with the Muslim guy, but I dont swing that way kid.

[Ahzi_Dhaka]

What the two of you don't get is that no one really cares about your history. Shia,Sunni...all the same to a westerner. Your religion is your business until it begins to restrict my rights in my own country. Then it will be put back in it's place. It will never dominate America. No final solutions by haters who kill indiscriminately or hide behind the skirts of their women. The cause of political Islam is about to suffer a serious setback all because of that animal Assad. The irony is that he isn't even religious, just an old fashioned gangster. But when he eventually lashes out at Israel he's going to give them an excuse to eliminate Damascus,the hezzies in Lebanon and the Arab stepchildren in Gaza.

I assume by "the Two of you..." you mean the Lion guy and I, but Im not a Muslim nor do I care much for them or you Christians, though I thought this was a discussion on whether or not Islam is an "offshoot" of Christianity, not a "Im better than them" thread, though in my personal opinion I would love to see the Two sects finally duke it out in a free for all to settle all scores. If Im mistaken then disregard what I just wrote =]

[odas]

Your clutching at straws here Odas i'm not a Catholic or Christian of any persuasion your post is lost on me, if you want to compare atrocities committed in the name of Christianity to those committed in the name of Islam go a head i'll post you Muslim ones from last week, to get back on track a comparison of the religions founders would be more appropriate unlike Mohammed Jesus never owed named Swords or stories told about how brave in battle he and his followers were, he never killed anyone Jesus said "turn the other cheek"

No, hetrodoxly. I am not trying to list athrocities comited by christians nor am I trying to compare who did more of it. I just want to say that every old sociaty or religion had bad experiences with a new one and that new societies and religions are built on the misery of old. Christianty is no exeption or islam or judaism or any other religion or philosophy. The difference is that christianity likes o point fingers at others and hide its own shortcommings. I can not understand why you get mad. Please read your own post and you will understand my replay.

[hetrodoxly]

I can understand that you might have a latent homosexual relationship with the Muslim guy, but I dont swing that way kid.

lion i didn't know you cared.

[Ahzi_Dhaka]

lion i didn't know you cared.

well I guess I cant expect much from a guy with the Cerne Abbas giant as a profile picture, then again what can you expect from an "atheist" lol

[Lion6969]

What the two of you don't get is that no one really cares about your history. Shia,Sunni...all the same to a westerner. Your religion is your business until it begins to restrict my rights in my own country. Then it will be put back in it's place. It will never dominate America. No final solutions by haters who kill indiscriminately or hide behind the skirts of their women. The cause of political Islam is about to suffer a serious setback all because of that animal Assad. The irony is that he isn't even religious, just an old fashioned gangster. But when he eventually lashes out at Israel he's going to give them an excuse to eliminate Damascus,the hezzies in Lebanon and the Arab stepchildren in Gaza.

I think this post shows you in your true light…a true Christian fundamentalist bigot. Do you wear a White hood by anychance

It's abundantly clear how racist and intolerant you are, not a result of the bible, Jesus, holy spirit etc, it's the result of hate, hate me more please the more you hate me and my brothers and sisters the more it consumes you.....the hate in you is not from a peace loving faith nor from god, but the direct opposite, keep feeding him

[Lion6969]

To admin.....

Could you please clarify to hetro that I am not the other contributor and to constantly accuse him so is out of order, he should either engage him in dialogue or nothing, but it's annoying me now that he keeps referring to someone else as me.

[RavenHawk]

Taqiya is a Shiite concept, get with the program. Most of you have gleaned your knowledge about islam from the Internet and Christian missionary sites still propagating crusader myths.

Sorry Charlie. It is not a Shiite concept. It has been predominantly used by Shiites because they were usually the minority among Sunni. But all sects use it. The main supporting verse is 16:106 “Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.” Yes, I got this off the internet, since I’m writing this on the internet. But it is from the Quran (unless you are calling the Quran a crusader myth). The fact is, is that you are practicing Taqiya right now. The fact is that you can’t hide it any more. The internet has revealed the truth about Islam. It has brought it out into the light. And your only counter is ”Most of you have gleaned your knowledge about islam from the Internet and Christian missionary sites still propagating crusader myths.” When is it not all of that? When it completely agrees with your point of view, where you can sweep it under the rug and keep it hidden again? This time around, I don’t think so. Muslims from all walks of life have a lot to answer for and it’s only going to get more difficult for them until they acknowledge their past and their faith. When you get over your state of denial then we can move forward.