The Oath-Keepers: 10 Orders We Won't Obey!

[preacherman76]

Nice statistics. But it wont deter the likes of preacherman

Of course not. Most deaths in America from fire arms are from gangs, criminals, who dont own thier guns legaly. Take away guns from the average lawful citizan, and it will be lambs to the slaughter. On a person level, you take away my guns, and you take away part of my livelyhood. I hunt for over half the meat my family eats per year. For me, the right to own a gun, goes hand in hand with my right to live and provide.

Besides, its not like everything is ****s and giggles over your way. Murders/gangs just use different weapons.

[preacherman76]

Yup, the death of children is nothing to somebody with the certainty of knowing that they couldn't possibly have got this one wrong....

America's relationship with firearms should be regarded as a national embarassment, somehow however - it ended up as a source of pride....

Any psychologists in the house care to explain that one?

Im for the full conviction of anyone who cant use a fire arm responcibly. Along with perminitly revoking thier right to own a gun. But chances are they lost that right long ago, and are operating fire arms illegaly.

[preacherman76]

Well, whether or not the population of, say, France did or didn't have the right own a gun (and i don't know whether they did or not) it wouldn't have made much difference against the Luftwaffe and the Panzer divisions, and the kind of thing that people who go on about 1776 all the time like to envisage, the population resisting Foreign oppressors, did actually happen in the form of the Resistance.

Maybe, maybe not. Least they could have had the choice to go out on thier own terms. Especialy the Jews among them, who were carted off to death camps.

[Wyvernkeeper]

Im for the full conviction of anyone who cant use a fire arm responcibly. Along with perminitly revoking thier right to own a gun. But chances are they lost that right long ago, and are operating fire arms illegaly.

You miss the point, the problem is the proliferation of firearms on the street and the availability of even 'legal' firearms (which can still kill btw) to the irresponsible and murderous people in society.

Although I don't like the man, I would consider Dick Cheney a 'responsible' gun owner, yet even he managed to blast his mate in the face during a hunting trip....

Maybe, maybe not. Least they could have had the choice to go out on thier own terms. Especialy the Jews among them, who were carted off to death camps.

Riiiiiiiiight.... So in your mind the Holocaust could have been prevented if 1930's German Jews were armed.... In that case I'd imagine Hitler would have rescinded their right to arms along with the rest of the measures he took against them when enacting the Nuremberg Laws....

Don't bring the Holocaust into this, it is utterly irrelevent and just makes you look more dramatic and irrational. I could argue equally pointlessly that the right to bare arms in the US did nothing to prevent 9/11.. True, but an utterly fallacious argument.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Wyvernkeeper

[lightly]

I must say, I've never understood this sacred principal about Gun ownership. Is it supposed to make America a safer place? Isn't it really based on paranoia? It seems to be saying that the basic founding principle of America is lack of trust, which seems curious in a country that always insists that its system of government is one that the rest of the World should follow; saying that "we insist to be allowed to carry Arms because we don't really trust our Govt". If you believe in Democracy, then surely the Govt. that's been elected by the People must be right.

oh, and incidentally, George III really was not a Despotic tyrant. the poor fellow didn't know what year it was most of the time.

When i read the part i've selected above.. I thought.. well Yes, that's why we needed a constitution... to remind and legally state that all men are created equal. You can't base a system of government on 'Trust'.

The Preamble states that a constitution was needed to secure the Blessings of Liberty, .. not, trust that our liberty will be secure.

The first two Constitutional amendments further demonstrate that our rights must be stated .. not trusted.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

*

Edited February 1, 2012 by lightly

[regeneratia]

In my time zone: I placed this topic at this time: Posted 29 January 2012 - 06:29 PM

In my time zone, You replied at this time:Posted 29 January 2012 - 07:06 PM

If you don't know this by now, I am a take-action person. I do indeed take a lot of action, locally, on issues at the state level and federal. People listen to me. Which is good.

I believe that one person can change the world. And that is why I don't let up on things.

I believe that one group of people can change the world. Perhaps OathKeepers are the very group of people who can and will change the world. They certainly have the ammo to do it (pardon the pun).

Now this post of yours is the nicest one I have ever seen by you. I don't have to trust you. Trust is never an issue for me when I read someone else. I like to know what people are thinking. I have no need to refute what people are saying if I disagree. And I feel no need to defend what I have posted.

Indeed I have the right to my opinion.

Having read a lot of philosophies, I can say that the rule of law applies most certainly more to those at the top levels of government and in our defense system than for the mere individual. That does not indeed depend on the law we are assessing. All laws apply to this. I never once thought "of course", until I put it on the first of one of my sentences.

No one was hurt during the shooting spree following Katrina. No one was hurt because it was the employees of Blackwater (now Xe) that were doing the shooting, shooting out of sheer boredom. HUH! Meanwhile, out of a strange fear-based or control-mongering nature of our government, illegal government-based gun confiscation began and effected those people who were NOT employed by an uninvited Blackwater. Blackwater wasn't supposed to be down there following the hurricane and they caused a hades of a lot of trouble because they were there.

The US government illegally confiscated the guns of people who have the solid Constitutional right to use those guns during a situation that the always-fought-for 2nd Amendment provided for them.

BTW, it took the NRA 24 hours to protest the actions of gun confiscation, ... at an era when news travels at near the speed of light and data is transfered at that speed. To wait for 24 hours calls into question the NRA and their ability to stand up for the people who support them.

I imagine not. I always post in the morning and in the afternoon.

My statement stands.

Unfortunately, you do. They don't have very strict entry requirements. Basically, you have to be able to pay whatever entry fee you choose.

Same reasons pretty much everyone else didn't. Most people understand them in context and don't see a danger. A smaller percentage grumble about it, but aren't motivated enough to actually do anything. A select view take action, in that they study, question, and join groups such as the above.

Basically, military people do the same thing that ordinary people do, except that it is a bit harder to accuse them of being cowards when they don't agree with a given viewpoint.

Yeaaah...who is it, again, who is calling you all these things?

Anyone?

It matters very little. The things I claim are either quite easy to verify or, occasionally, point out directly the issue at hand. There is no need to trust me, nor should you. After all, even though you have absolutely no evidence, support, or logic, to decide that I am some sort of government spy, you could still be correct out of sheer coincidence.

Alternatively, you can simply assure yourself that I am not trustworthy (despite never asking for your trust), that I am inherently incorrect (instead of verifying correctness), and that I do not know anything about the topic at hand because...well, let's face it, you only discovered the topic recently, so how could anyone on the other side know about it?

Here is an interesting question: Are you capable of explaining the reasoning behind the Unlawful Orders? Not the actual orders themselves, but the reason why those specific ones are the most significant?

You don't have to answer here. It is a personal question. However, I am willing to bet that, even before getting to this sentence here, the first answer that popped in your head was "Of Course!".

You certainly have a right to your opinion.

Notice that when I stated how unthinking claims hurt the mission more than help, I gave an actual example, as well as an explanation, and used neutral language rather than personal accusations?

Edited February 1, 2012 by regeneratia

[regeneratia]

Perhaps if people like these, whose sincerity I do not doubt, would stop referring to the Nazis at every opportunity, people might not go and might actually listen to them ...

"We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext. ... Whenever a government interns its own people, it treats them like an occupied enemy population. Oppressive governments often use the internment of women and children to break the will of the men fighting for their liberty – as was done to the Boers, to the Jewish resisters in the Warsaw Ghetto, and to the Chechens, for example."

Oh no, not the FEMA Camps again.

But I think we are, in the US, headed into a fascist government. It is hard not to link to the Nazis because if we don't, we lose track of how insidious that movements toward fascism were in Germany way back when. For me that link is in my head everytime another American right is removed by our US Congress, that these are the people that are moving us into a direction that has created so much havoc already in the world.

Always remember history. Do not remodel in modern times the undesirable aspects of history. Let's be better than what has come before.

Have you ever seen some of the FEMA camps? They literally LOOK like prison camps. They are fenced. They are guarded. There is a hard-reared gate-keeper in uniform. And the housing poisons people. Doh!

Edited February 1, 2012 by regeneratia

[regeneratia]

Excellent post!

It is good to hear of this group. I think I saw the leader, a Sheriff from somewhere (Richard?) on TV.

It's good to know there are men and women like this in service.

I was happy to know it too.

[Fluffybunny]

No one was hurt during the shooting spree following Katrina. No one was hurt because it was the employees of Blackwater (now Xe) that were doing the shooting, shooting out of sheer boredom. HUH! Meanwhile, out of a strange fear-based or control-mongering nature of our government, illegal government-based gun confiscation began and effected those people who were NOT employed by an uninvited Blackwater. Blackwater wasn't supposed to be down there following the hurricane and they caused a hades of a lot of trouble because they were there.

The US government illegally confiscated the guns of people who have the solid Constitutional right to use those guns during a situation that the always-fought-for 2nd Amendment provided for them.

BTW, it took the NRA 24 hours to protest the actions of gun confiscation, ... at an era when news travels at near the speed of light and data is transfered at that speed. To wait for 24 hours calls into question the NRA and their ability to stand up for the people who support them.

It is time to put the big guns down now, Little Boys!

[regeneratia]

And it is time for Big Boys to pick up little guns.

IOW, arm The People to protect their own country, to protect their property, and reduce the unnecessary war-mongering on foreign lands for products of which the war-machine is the biggest consumer.

Edited February 1, 2012 by regeneratia

[Fluffybunny]

And it is time for Big Boys to pick up little guns.

Make up your mind.

[Corp]

No one was hurt during the shooting spree following Katrina. No one was hurt because it was the employees of Blackwater (now Xe) that were doing the shooting, shooting out of sheer boredom. HUH! Meanwhile, out of a strange fear-based or control-mongering nature of our government, illegal government-based gun confiscation began and effected those people who were NOT employed by an uninvited Blackwater. Blackwater wasn't supposed to be down there following the hurricane and they caused a hades of a lot of trouble because they were there.

The US government illegally confiscated the guns of people who have the solid Constitutional right to use those guns during a situation that the always-fought-for 2nd Amendment provided for them.

BTW, it took the NRA 24 hours to protest the actions of gun confiscation, ... at an era when news travels at near the speed of light and data is transfered at that speed. To wait for 24 hours calls into question the NRA and their ability to stand up for the people who support them.

Isn't Blackwater a private company? IE not run by the government? Why are you blaming the government for their actions instead of, you know, Blackwater themselves?

But I think we are, in the US, headed into a fascist government. It is hard not to link to the Nazis because if we don't, we lose track of how insidious that movements toward fascism were in Germany way back when. For me that link is in my head everytime another American right is removed by our US Congress, that these are the people that are moving us into a direction that has created so much havoc already in the world.

Always remember history. Do not remodel in modern times the undesirable aspects of history. Let's be better than what has come before.

Have you ever seen some of the FEMA camps? They literally LOOK like prison camps. They are fenced. They are guarded. There is a hard-reared gate-keeper in uniform. And the housing poisons people. Doh!

Perhaps you can use Italy as an example since they're the ones who created fascism. Spain was also a fascist country. Spice things up a bit instead of going to the Nazis like everyone else does. As for the FEMA camps everyone was supose to be marched in them a half dozen times by now. The only thing that has happened is a whole lot of squat.

Regarding the whole Second Amendment thing (which personally I find some Americans take way too seriously) wasn't the whole point of it being put into place because America wasn't going to have a standing army? That the defense of the nation was going to be the militias and as such private citizens needed to be armed. Now that the US has a strong standing army is it really needed to have private citizens armed to fight off invasion. In terms of using those weapons to fight off oppressive government, well that's rather subjective. The people who wrote the Constitution seemed to have no problem dealing with Shays' Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion. Guess it all comes down to where you draw the line.

[regeneratia]

Make up your mind.

My mind is made up. One must be able to see the nuance, the shades of grey. Nothing in life is simple, either/or, black and white. If one cannot see the complexity of the issues at hand, then they shouldn't be thinking about it much at all, and probably are not thinking about it much at all.

Arm The People.

And stop the Runaway War Machine who kills hundreds of thousands in a foreign land for oil or fiber optic hubs and communication contracts that feed Asia, or photos of torture that you simply cannot find anywhere else.

Hernibs is on ignore, Will not be responding.

Edited February 1, 2012 by regeneratia

[+HerNibs]

I have a problem with these rules or oath.

OATH KEEPERS: ORDERS WE WILL NOT OBEY

Click here to read full length version.

1. We will NOT obey orders to disarm the American people.

2. We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people

3. We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.

5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.

8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control."

9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.

10.We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.

Military personnel already have a means of not obeying an unlawful order.

My issue is that the everyday soldier doesn't know entire the situation that generated the order. #4 as an example - won't impose a state of emergency? So rioting, looting, destruction of property, danger to innocent people isn't a good enough reason for the military to step in and protect people, property and restore order? (Katrina comes to mind.)

A soldier has already signed and sworn to an oath. As far as I can tell, any active duty personnel who "signs or swears" (or acts upon) this "OathKeepers Oath" is defying the oath to the military and the constitution.

Nibs

[regeneratia]

My point exactly. Why the hades was Blackwater down there for they were not invited to "the party"? Why did they initiate a reason to give the government for gun confiscation?

Our soldiers have the right to not obey orders if it violates the US Constitution and the US Bill of Rights. Applause to all who accept the extremely difficult challenge to takes a stand against orders that are unConstitutional.

The reason I blame them is clearly explained earlier, with link provided (But I cannot make you read it).

I think these OATHKEEPER guys are smart enough to draw the lines where those lines need to be.

Isn't Blackwater a private company? IE not run by the government? Why are you blaming the government for their actions instead of, you know, Blackwater themselves?

Perhaps you can use Italy as an example since they're the ones who created fascism. Spain was also a fascist country. Spice things up a bit instead of going to the Nazis like everyone else does. As for the FEMA camps everyone was supose to be marched in them a half dozen times by now. The only thing that has happened is a whole lot of squat.

Regarding the whole Second Amendment thing (which personally I find some Americans take way too seriously) wasn't the whole point of it being put into place because America wasn't going to have a standing army? That the defense of the nation was going to be the militias and as such private citizens needed to be armed. Now that the US has a strong standing army is it really needed to have private citizens armed to fight off invasion. In terms of using those weapons to fight off oppressive government, well that's rather subjective. The people who wrote the Constitution seemed to have no problem dealing with Shays' Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion. Guess it all comes down to where you draw the line.

Edited February 1, 2012 by regeneratia

[Fluffybunny]

My mind is made up. One must be able to see the nuance, the shades of grey. Nothing in life is simple, either/or, black and white. If one cannot see the complexity of the issues at hand, then they shouldn't be thinking about it much at all, and probably are not thinking about it much at all.

Arm The People.

And stop the Runaway War Machine who kills hundreds of thousands in a foreign land for oil or fiber optic hubs and communication contracts that feed Asia, or photos of torture that you cannot find anywhere else.

We are so blessed to have such a thinker as you, huh?

[regeneratia]

We are so blessed to have such a thinker as you, huh?

Was this post necessary?

Is it on topic?

LEt me know when you really want to discuss this topic, when the need to ridicule is done.

Edited February 1, 2012 by regeneratia

[Corp]

My point exactly. Why the hades was Blackwater down there for they were not invited to "the party"? Why did they initiate a reason to give the government for gun confiscation?

Our soldiers have the right to not obey orders if it violates the US Constitution and the US Bill of Rights. Applause to all who accept the extremely difficult challenge to takes a stand against orders that are unConstitutional.

The reason I blame them is clearly explained earlier, with link provided (But I cannot make you read it).

I think these OATHKEEPER guys are smart enough to draw the lines where those lines need to be.

Well you'd need to ask Blackwater that. As I recall New Orleans wasn't completely locked down so people could still come and go without much trouble. Unless check points were set up to search everyone coming in there's not much that could be done to stop Blackwater from poking around.

As HerNibs already pointed out the US military already as the line drawn and from what I've been told soldiers have it drilled into their heads that they're not to following an illegal order. Plus there may be cases where soldiers don't have all the information needed to make that call. If a city block is being burned down by rioters and the national guard is called in where isn't time to debate the causes of the riot.

In all these Oathkeepers just seem to be vowing to keep the oaths they've already taken when they joined the military.

[regeneratia]

Well you'd need to ask Blackwater that. As I recall New Orleans wasn't completely locked down so people could still come and go without much trouble. Unless check points were set up to search everyone coming in there's not much that could be done to stop Blackwater from poking around.

As HerNibs already pointed out the US military already as the line drawn and from what I've been told soldiers have it drilled into their heads that they're not to following an illegal order. Plus there may be cases where soldiers don't have all the information needed to make that call. If a city block is being burned down by rioters and the national guard is called in where isn't time to debate the causes of the riot.

In all these Oathkeepers just seem to be vowing to keep the oaths they've already taken when they joined the military.

Actually blackwater did answer that question. So I have the answer. If you need it, read the book.

Thank you for giving me a paraphrase of what hernibs posted for I did not read her post.

My position stands as is, after considering what you posted.

I support the OatKeepers.

I do not support the Lord of War. In fact, I rather do not like them. And I live very near them, am exposed to them. They are not moral guys. And they are mostly guys.

The individual soldier does not fit into the category of Lords of War. Again, a conceptual nuance that you must make if you are thinking critically.

Obviously the Military wants men to act like machines. And obviously they are replacing men with machines.

Hopefully they have taken the advice of Asimov. (I am assuming you know what he thought on this issue, that you are that well-read.)

[ninjadude]

Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

*

A "well regulated militia" is not a gun for every tom dick and harry...It's citizen militias. Which I would argue have not been relevant in our society for over a century.

[ninjadude]

And it is time for Big Boys to pick up little guns.

IOW, arm The People to protect their property,

from who?

[ninjadude]

Blackwater wasn't supposed to be down there following the hurricane and they caused a hades of a lot of trouble because they were there.

Why the hades was Blackwater down there for they were not invited to "the party"?

Really?

Blackwater moved about 200 personnel into the area hit by Hurricane Katrina, most of whom (164 employees) were working under a contract with the Department of Homeland Security to protect government facilities

source Edited February 1, 2012 by ninjadude

[regeneratia]

Really?

source

How about you show me the contract? Not that I would believe it to be fact, given the fact that this form media does not allow for us to show the facts.

And Wikipedia can be amended and altered by anyone. So I don't and never will consider anything coming from it to be fact. I considered it to be more of a perception control tool.

So while I don't really care to read the book I linked to again just for you, I do tend to believe Scahill to be a better reporter than some nameless person who could possibly be trying to get us to side with a horrendous company such as Blackwater.

Nice try tho. You really took some time with this. I would not have taken that time.

I am out now. Got a life to live off this board.

Edited February 1, 2012 by regeneratia

[lightly]

A "well regulated militia" is not a gun for every tom dick and harry... It's citizen militias. Which I would argue have not been relevant in our society for over a century.

Citizen's militias might be a right we should keep? Just in case they should ever become relevant?

And unless the wording of the amendment is changed.. every tom dick and harry has the right to own a gun.

It's not mandatory... as it has been at times and situations in early American history.

Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

[Englishgent]

It saddens me to see the type of attitude some people have regarding the right to keep firearms.

Simple facts....If everyone carries guns, there will be more gun crime. There will be more accidental shootings. there will be more loonies shooting in schools and colleges. The list goes on.

Taking away the right to carry guns will never stop gun crime because where there is a will, there is a way. If a criminal wants a firearm they are available on the black market. That goes for the UK as well. We have very strict firearm controls but it does not stop all firearm related crimes or inicidents. It does , however, drastically reduce them.

In 30 years as a cop in the UK, I NEVER had to face a criminal with a firearm. In fact, there are very few Police Officers in the UK who have had that experience. I wonder how many cops in the USA can say the same thing?

Yes, I attended incidents where a firearm had been used, or used as a threat, but even they were few and far between. I am also proud of the fact that I never carried, or wanted to carry a firearm. We have sufficient armed officer 24hrs a day who can respond to such incidents at fairly short notice.

The UK is still a free state and we dont need an armed citizens militia just in case we happen to be invaded.

edit. I forgot to say. As far as I am aware, we dont have, or need an organisation of military personal deciding what orders one will, or will not obey. In the British Armed Forces they tend to follow orders, which is how it should be. Anything other than that would be classed, at the very least, a lack of discipline or even Mutiny!

Edited February 2, 2012 by Englishgent