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AngelsShadow

Why Christians?

169 posts in this topic

It isn't just christians in general in my opinion. There are plenty well informed, respectful people who follow christ, and they are better people for it. As for the islam comment, I can only laugh...

The problem lies with the considerable number of christians who wish to force their beliefs on everyone else, as if their "truth" is the only truth, without respect for other opinions.

post-2832-0-63807900-1328432394_thumb.jp

The thing about that cartoon makes it seem like anyone who disagrees with Christianity is equally respectful as the person in that cartoon - If you want to believe in God and teach it to your kids, that's fine but please allow me to hold my beliefs! Many non-Christians are like this. I've met many in real life and on this forum. But then, I've met those non-Christians who aren't respectful. They tell you that you are mentally ill for believing in God, that it's stupid to believe in an invisible sky daddy, or simply roll their eyes and call you brainwashed. One ex-member here went as far as to say that I'm a hypocrite because I use modern technology and if I was a "true Christian" I should be using technology equivalent to the Dark Ages (no medicine that doesn't involve leeches, no electricity, no cars or schooling)....

The cartoon also implies that all Christians support the views presented by the Christian - arrest an abortionist for being a baby killer, atheists are immoral, stem-cell research is wrong. And while the second and third of those views are obviously incorrect, a Christian may believe abortion to be wrong without making the in-your-face announcement that someone should be arrested.

In short, it is a caricature of the situation - taking the worst element of Christianity and the best element of non-Christianity and placing them side-by-side. Most Christians aren't that in-your-face as depicted. Some non-Christians just aren't as respectful as depicted. Though to be fair I will agree that this extreme is certainly possible, but I think you will find it is not the most common depiction. Though I don't live in the United States, so I can't say for certain, especially for areas such as the Bible Belt. It may very well be the norm in some areas. But I doubt those areas dominate the entire United States. That's just my experience from meeting Christians (mostly online, but I've met one or two American Christians in my time on this planet).

~ PA

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Katie Price recently had her eyesight restored with the help of stem cells. I would not ever be against using stem cells. I agree that the cartoon is offensive and judges all Christians by an extreme view.

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The thing about that cartoon makes it seem like anyone who disagrees with Christianity is equally respectful as the person in that cartoon - If you want to believe in God and teach it to your kids, that's fine but please allow me to hold my beliefs! Many non-Christians are like this. I've met many in real life and on this forum. But then, I've met those non-Christians who aren't respectful. They tell you that you are mentally ill for believing in God, that it's stupid to believe in an invisible sky daddy, or simply roll their eyes and call you brainwashed. One ex-member here went as far as to say that I'm a hypocrite because I use modern technology and if I was a "true Christian" I should be using technology equivalent to the Dark Ages (no medicine that doesn't involve leeches, no electricity, no cars or schooling)....

The cartoon also implies that all Christians support the views presented by the Christian - arrest an abortionist for being a baby killer, atheists are immoral, stem-cell research is wrong. And while the second and third of those views are obviously incorrect, a Christian may believe abortion to be wrong without making the in-your-face announcement that someone should be arrested.

In short, it is a caricature of the situation - taking the worst element of Christianity and the best element of non-Christianity and placing them side-by-side. Most Christians aren't that in-your-face as depicted. Some non-Christians just aren't as respectful as depicted. Though to be fair I will agree that this extreme is certainly possible, but I think you will find it is not the most common depiction. Though I don't live in the United States, so I can't say for certain, especially for areas such as the Bible Belt. It may very well be the norm in some areas. But I doubt those areas dominate the entire United States. That's just my experience from meeting Christians (mostly online, but I've met one or two American Christians in my time on this planet).

~ PA

I understand your point, and to be clear you are one of the people that I consider the best example of what christianity offer, and said as much in my op. Yes the cartoon is extreme, but one of the things that you may or may not be aware of is the level of money put into the attempt to link christianity and the government. There are many many people in the us from different evangelical churches doing their very best to make christianity and its beliefs part of the US government "as the founding fathers wanted it".

It is disturbing to see tens of millions of dollars of church money invested into passing or blocking bills, stomping on the beliefs of the average citizen and not allowing for equal representation. Churches here get to exist tax free, yet they use that tax free money to influence the government, and to me that is wrong.

I personally don't care what a persons beliefs are as long as they don't bump up against other peoples beliefs. Christianity does not meter itself here, and there are a good portion of christians in this country that truly do believe that the country was founded on christianity and needs to get back to that hyper religious state which I see as little difference from a different flavor of the taliban.

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And I'm sorry but I really expected more respectful posting from a Forum Moderator who is representing this website =/ I mean really...

As one of the Christian moderators on this website, I read over that post and found nothing disrespectful there. It certainly didn't offend me and I didn't perceive it as insulting. However, in the future if you do believe someone is being disrespectful to you or your beliefs, it would be better for you to use the "Report" button on the bottom left of every post. Even moderators are only human and though we try not to we do occasionally make a mistake. I just don't believe this to be one of those times, but please consider it in the future.

And I think you would be surprised at how Jesus was. He wasn't a nicey nice man, our God is a God of love but He is also a God of terrible wrath, so His son was also of this nature. He wanted peace but He also told people "You're a dirty rotten sinner!! And you need to repent!!" and guess what... People respected Him for preaching His message.

I don't recall Jesus ever using the words "dirty" or "rotten". He did say we were not perfect, that no one was good. That we should strive to avoid sin. But he did it in a non-confrontational manner. "You're a dirty rotten sinner" is negative and is just going to earn a reprisal of negativity straight back. Consider how Jesus responded to the woman caught in adultery. He said "he who is without sin cast the first stone". Then when the crowd left, he said simply to the woman "Go, and sin no more". He did not say "you are a dirty rotten sinner and you must repent". It was gentle, respectful, while still allowing his primary point to shine through - go and sin no more (not that anyone could "sin no more", as Christians we believe that we will continue to sin despite our best effort - but we should maintain an attitude of Christ-focused living free as much as possible from sin).

when was the last time somebody came up to you and tried to convert you so violently that it was too much for you to handle, when was the last time someone told you "You're going to hell!! You need Jesus you no good sinner!!" I'm gonna go ahead and say it's been quite a while, if it's ever happened to you at all. You may come at me and say "But the preachers in the pulpits do that all the time!" but that is our right, we have the right to say whatever we want to whomever we want, whenever we want, that is our basic right as an American, if you don't want to hear it, it's simple, don't go to church.

You can choose to avoid going to church, but in America what if you want to watch television on Sunday morning? Turn on the tv and get a good dose of preaching from the tele-evangelists. Where I live in Aussie-land we don't generally have to put up with that (the only religious programming on normal television is a two hour slot from 3-5am (maybe that's changed, but that's what it was last I checked). But Americans do have to put up with that, so even if they don't go to church they get that on their television. Simply saying "don't go to church" isn't really the only answer for non-Christians over there.

We're not supposed to make you feel good, church is about getting a message from God and getting your life right through someone telling you that God said what you're doing is wrong, right here in the bible, that is what we believe and yet we are constantly told "But you're wrong, it's simply not right, YOUR God can't exist." so why not just leave us alone? Why not just say "Okay they believe this, I don't, let's leave it at that." when we minister to people, if they don't want to accept it then we leave them alone and kindly ask them to read our material and leave it in God's hands after that. Jesus wouldn't have been that nice to you, He probably would have told you "You know you're a dirty sinner!! You know what you're doing is wrong!!" our nation is way too concerned with hurting people's feelings.

See previous comments on Jesus' attitude - he wouldn't say "dirty sinner", he'd be much more respectful. But that aside, if you live in the Bible Belt everything I hear about that area sounds like there are more vocal Christians than pretty much anywhere else in the world. Perhaps it is this vocal crowd that provokes backlash from the minority of people who don't believe in God. Like they have been presented the Bible so many times by so many people, some of whom are not as respectful as they should and shout and scream about burning in hell for eternity.... and they jut decide to fight fire with fire. Get aggressive because they have been shown aggressiveness by Christians. Or perhaps Christians in such an area where belief is almost universal, coupled with the vocal crowd, it might seem strange or even confronting for a Christian when suddenly someone voices a view of non-belief. This might lead to misconceptions that disagreement therefore meant disrespect, which isn't the case at all.

It's always good to turn it around and think about it from the other side of the coin. Imagine you were a tiny minority of Christians living in a predominantly Muslim community. How would you feel if every couple of weeks you get a knock on the door from Muslim missionaries, they want to tell you that Allah is Great, the words of Mohammed should be treated with reverence, and then they left you with Muslim pamphlets about how Jesus is just another prophet and not the son of God. And this happens consistently throughout your entire life. As a kid you go to school and everyone prays five times a day. The kids find out you're not a Muslim and they pick on you for it. They make fun of you for your non-belief and make you feel like an outsider - they question how you can be a good and moral citizen if you don't believe in Allah. Some kids might even beat you up because you don't believe. Yes, I've heard stories of that happen to non-Christians in the Bible Belt - one member here was a teenage Christian, very vocal. He was always preaching and trying to convert others. One day he expressed doubts about his belies, and eventually he stopped believing in Christ, and eventually he became a Jew. The next week, he shared a story how his friends at school beat him up for turning away from Christ. It was quite confronting.

If you had gone through this all your life, ridiculed by kids at school, discriminated against in the workplace, preached to constantly - would you at the end of the day sit back and say "no thanks, you have your belief I have mine"?

As I said, I live in Aussie-land. In particular I live in a highly multicultural area where 9-in-10 people come from non-English speaking backgrounds. Islam and Buddhism have more followers where I live than Christianity (at least that has been my experience, I don't know the official statistics). But overwhelming religious folk are the group that just say "I don't care". Well, they don't say it, because they don't care they just ignore it. So for me, hearing "you believe what you want, I believe what I want" is the most common thing I hear. I did work with someone who called me brainwashed and deluded for my belief (I didn't even bring God up, he asked me one day if I was religious). But that was just one experience. I think I've had maybe one other negative experience with a non-Christian in 12 years of me believing in Christ.

Sorry for the length of reply, I kind of just got caught up in ideas. I hope you get to read this far :tu:

~ Regards, PA

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I understand your point, and to be clear you are one of the people that I consider the best example of what christianity offer, and said as much in my op. Yes the cartoon is extreme, but one of the things that you may or may not be aware of is the level of money put into the attempt to link christianity and the government. There are many many people in the us from different evangelical churches doing their very best to make christianity and its beliefs part of the US government "as the founding fathers wanted it".

It is disturbing to see tens of millions of dollars of church money invested into passing or blocking bills, stomping on the beliefs of the average citizen and not allowing for equal representation. Churches here get to exist tax free, yet they use that tax free money to influence the government, and to me that is wrong.

I personally don't care what a persons beliefs are as long as they don't bump up against other peoples beliefs. Christianity does not meter itself here, and there are a good portion of christians in this country that truly do believe that the country was founded on christianity and needs to get back to that hyper religious state which I see as little difference from a different flavor of the taliban.

I don't know much about Christianity in America except that it exists in presumably larger numbers than here in Australia. I hear the Bible Belt is particularly huge with a more vocal than usual group of churches. But I have no basis of comparison to even contemplate what that might look like in real life. The closest thing I might consider is when I went to the Philippines last year and every bus and many billboards all read "JESUS IS LORD" in big friendly letters across them. But I had very little contact with the people (except when purchasing goods) so I never really got to hear how zealous they may or may not have been.

In Australia, Christianity is very low-key. We have only two real "mega churches" - on about 40 minutes from where I live and another across the country into another State. But I've never been to it and don't think I could be comfortable. The largest church I've ever been in had 600 members and I was overwhelmed. Heck, my old church grew to 120 members and I left to find a smaller church (my current church has about 40 regulars).

I'm sharing this just to give you an idea of the sheer inability my experience has to understand how places such as the Bible Belt operate. I don't know a great deal about what these churches get up to with funding to influence government. Even with tax-free status most churches I've been to struggled to even open their doors from week to week, let alone had a stockpile of cash large enough to fund government legislation. It sounds like there's quite a lot of politicking going on. Still, Bible Belt aside, from the American Christians I have met here online and the couple in real life, I do get the impression that most people aren't quite as extreme (organisations aside, that's just something I can't understand).

Thanks for sharing in any case :tu:

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\] I agree that the cartoon is offensive and judges all Christians by an extreme view.

Where does it say "All Christians"?

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Where does it say "All Christians"?

Why do you post it then? You posted as a response. Who is this aimed at?

Also to Paranoid Android. I worry you have been given a distorted view of Christianity in the United States. I grew up near the Bible Belt and there are mostly humble Christians. The ones that are most vocal get the most attention. But most Christians do not act the way people are suggesting they do. Most Christians live their lives, try to help others, try to be good people. In fact, studies show that most Christians don't even go to a church. I don't.

Edited by Cassea

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Why do you post it then? You posted as a response. Who is this aimed at?

The people who act like the christian in the cartoon, who else?

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The people who act like the christian in the cartoon, who else?

Why is it relevant to this thread? Is someone in this thread acting this way?

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Why is it relevant to this thread? Is someone in this thread acting this way?

It was in direct response to the OP and representative of my(as well as many others) feelings regarding the question posed by the OP. It was perfectly relevant to this thread, perfect really.

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It was in direct response to the OP and representative of my(as well as many others) feelings regarding the question posed by the OP. It was perfectly relevant to this thread, perfect really.

But who is acting this way? Who are the people that you know who say these things? I see people saying that Paranoid Android is a different kind of Christian. But actually most of the people on this site who are Christian are acting like Paranoid Android. In addition most of the people in real life act like him as well. A few people act like the people in the cartoon. I have never met a single person in my life who acts that way. So where are the people that you know who act that way?

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But who is acting this way? Who are the people that you know who say these things? I see people saying that Paranoid Android is a different kind of Christian. But actually most of the people on this site who are Christian are acting like Paranoid Android. In addition most of the people in real life act like him as well. A few people act like the people in the cartoon. I have never met a single person in my life who acts that way. So where are the people that you know who act that way?

evangelicalism, christian right.

There are plenty of other groups that fit the bill, but these two articles will give you the gist of the idea. The people who wish to change the country to fit what they believe it to be, which is a theocracy. They are large numbers of well funded people who work hard to put their own people in power in order to try and change what this country is and has been based upon.

I don't doubt you have not run into these people, as you don't go to church. They would have interesting things to say about a self proclaimed christian who doesn't go to church too...

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evangelicalism, christian right.

There are plenty of other groups that fit the bill, but these two articles will give you the gist of the idea. The people who wish to change the country to fit what they believe it to be, which is a theocracy. They are large numbers of well funded people who work hard to put their own people in power in order to try and change what this country is and has been based upon.

I don't doubt you have not run into these people, as you don't go to church. They would have interesting things to say about a self proclaimed christian who doesn't go to church too...

What other groups. So evangelical Christian right wing people. Sounds like a group of political Christians. I am a personal Christian and so are most of the Christians I know. So who else. You say "plenty of other groups" what other groups. How many is plenty? It seems like one or two loud political groups are being used as an excuse to attack regular Christians. The same way people would use Moslem extremist suicide bomber terrorists to generalize and attack all Moslems. Since no one in this thread is an evangelical Christian right wing political person. Why do you feel it answers the OP. Actually it is an example of what the OP is talking about. The way I see it.

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What other groups. So evangelical Christian right wing people. Sounds like a group of political Christians. I am a personal Christian and so are most of the Christians I know. So who else. You say "plenty of other groups" what other groups. How many is plenty? It seems like one or two loud political groups are being used as an excuse to attack regular Christians. The same way people would use Moslem extremist suicide bomber terrorists to generalize and attack all Moslems. Since no one in this thread is an evangelical Christian right wing political person. Why do you feel it answers the OP. Actually it is an example of what the OP is talking about. The way I see it.

It is not just political christians, as you put it, it is a large number of christians who feel their way is the only way. It isn't as if these people work 9-5 on their religious beliefs and then go home and become sensible well balanced people...the aggressiveness in which they try to convert others is a constant, and their condescendion when they meet non Christians they cannot convert is clear. They are people who have normal jobs and interact with others in ways that make it very clear how they feel, and how anyone who does not agree is obviously wrong and going to hell for their lack of belief in the right god.

It is my opinion and my experience of a very large portion of christians I know. I could sit here and name names, and tell stories, but that would be pointless as you do not know them. I have traveled all over this country, and it is very common to come across, specially in the south east of the country and much of the midwest.

The cartoon represents my experiences rather well, as I really don't care what other people subscribe to, as long as it doesn't interfere with others beliefs. Right wing christians want to change the country, and the people in it to fit their personal religion, as soon as they meet anyone who disagrees they scream about the war on their religion.

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I really thought that everyone was aware pretty much that all religions--even the religion of non-religion known as atheism--are used to justify the torturous acts that are done in their name. Seems like, "Have you accepted Jesus as your savior?" is far better than, "Do you proclaim Allah as God and Muhammad as his prophet? as the point of the spear is pointing at your face. Seems like using a campaign of terrors like that to spread Islam in its early days from Saudi Arabia to Spain, the Caucasus Mountains and beyond the great Wall of China justifies the eventual response of the crusades. Does anyone here realize the amount of blood that was shed in that Islamic campaign?

If atheists were genuinely concerned about the loss of human life, that would be the first example, followed by the real estate takeover of Genghis Khan, then perhaps the native Indian wars of Central and South Americas, followed by the atheist Stalin's attempts to wipe out all religions in Russian with slave-like persecutions building the marvelous architectural building we marvel at today on those people back and starvation. Then next would be the mention of the atheist Hitler and his war and his holocaust. Then next would be the atheist Carl Marx and the huge toll of the Bolsheviks revolution. Then possibly the Crusades would be mentioned.

So, why do you only mention the biblical wars, the Crusades, the things of the Christian background, because the concern for life is only a rouse to get to the ability to discredit Christianity. Christianity, on the whole, has done far more good on this Earth than what you can muster as "bad".

As to the proclamation of the New Atheists that we are only Christian because our parents were Christian, I wonder how your terrible experiences with Christianity led you to atheism if the religion of the parent determines the religion of the offspring. Isn't you decision of being an atheist mostly an act that disproves your own theory? You guys will have to strike that from your collective apologetics of atheism.

And obviously the statement that we can not prove to you our god is a two-way street in that you can not prove the lack of all gods.

So, on the stage of debates neither you nor any religion can claim first place because the things of religion are not based on fact, but faith. but then you already know this because your first and fall-back positions all have to do with facts.

Edited by encouraged

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It is not just political christians, as you put it, it is a large number of christians who feel their way is the only way. It isn't as if these people work 9-5 on their religious beliefs and then go home and become sensible well balanced people...the aggressiveness in which they try to convert others is a constant, and their condescendion when they meet non Christians they cannot convert is clear. They are people who have normal jobs and interact with others in ways that make it very clear how they feel, and how anyone who does not agree is obviously wrong and going to hell for their lack of belief in the right god.

It is my opinion and my experience of a very large portion of christians I know. I could sit here and name names, and tell stories, but that would be pointless as you do not know them. I have traveled all over this country, and it is very common to come across, specially in the south east of the country and much of the midwest.

The cartoon represents my experiences rather well, as I really don't care what other people subscribe to, as long as it doesn't interfere with others beliefs. Right wing christians want to change the country, and the people in it to fit their personal religion, as soon as they meet anyone who disagrees they scream about the war on their religion.

In my opinion this is a prejudice that is held against Christians that is not really true. But if you'd like to post some evidence that this is not just your interpretation and opinion that the average Christian aggressively tries to convert non believers. I'd like to see it. I have over time seen a few aggressive types of people. But they have usually been political people. Most of the Christians I have encountered in my life are focused on their own families and lives. Usually simple people focused on their own lives. If you start a conversation with them about their views, then of course they are going to defend them. But I honestly can't remember the last time before I came here that I have ever heard anyone have a conversation about different religious opinions. Most of the people I know are respectful and tolerant of each other. Even when they have very different views. There are many Christians and Jews in my class at school. No one discusses their views. It's not important.

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In my opinion this is a prejudice that is held against Christians that is not really true. But if you'd like to post some evidence that this is not just your interpretation and opinion that the average Christian aggressively tries to convert non believers. I'd like to see it. I have over time seen a few aggressive types of people. But they have usually been political people. Most of the Christians I have encountered in my life are focused on their own families and lives. Usually simple people focused on their own lives. If you start a conversation with them about their views, then of course they are going to defend them. But I honestly can't remember the last time before I came here that I have ever heard anyone have a conversation about different religious opinions. Most of the people I know are respectful and tolerant of each other. Even when they have very different views. There are many Christians and Jews in my class at school. No one discusses their views. It's not important.

So my opinion isn't valid(and is prejudiced) because it isn't the same as yours?

Thank you for making my point for me. I couldn't have done better myself. Great example of the mentality. At least I offered links to the groups I mentioned(some ~80 million Americans) and what my experience was. But really, thanks for the dismissal because I could not have explained it better.

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So my opinion isn't valid(and is prejudiced) because it isn't the same as yours?

Thank you for making my point for me. I couldn't have done better myself. Great example of the mentality. At least I offered links to the groups I mentioned(some ~80 million Americans) and what my experience was. But really, thanks for the dismissal because I could not have explained it better.

You didn't say it was your opinion. If it's your opinion of course it is just as valid as anyone's. But your opinion would of course be biased. And if you make statements as if it is factual. I will ask you to back up your statement. How is that offensive to you? I didn't dismiss your statement. I asked you to back it up. Your statement is that there are plenty of other groups where regular Christians aggressively go out of their way every day to try to convert other people. I have asked for examples of this. So if you could show them I'd appreciate it. My opinion is that political people tend to be more aggressive. So a mixture of religion into politics is going to create a lot of issues. It might seem as though many Christians are this way. But it might just be that the media attention distorts it a bit. I do know that a lot of "tea party" people are Christians. So they might also come across that way. But I tend to think of them as balanced out with the Occupy movement. Both sides are bold, loud and annoying. But they are not a representative of the average person on either side.

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Am I misguided because I dont believe?

Yep...but I still love ya EG :)

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You didn't say it was your opinion.

The cartoon represents my experiences rather well, as I really don't care what other people subscribe to, as long as it doesn't interfere with others beliefs. Right wing christians want to change the country, and the people in it to fit their personal religion, as soon as they meet anyone who disagrees they scream about the war on their religion.

It was in direct response to the OP and representative of my(as well as many others) feelings regarding the question posed by the OP. It was perfectly relevant to this thread, perfect really.

I stated very clearly what I felt. YOU were the one who wouldn't accept, and then dismissed what I said.

But if you'd like to post some evidence that this is not just your interpretation and opinion that the average Christian aggressively tries to convert non believers. I'd like to see it. I

Why do I need to provide evidence for my opinion, yet you do not need to provide evidence for your opinion?

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It is not just political christians, as you put it, it is a large number of christians who feel their way is the only way. It isn't as if these people work 9-5 on their religious beliefs and then go home and become sensible well balanced people...the aggressiveness in which they try to convert others is a constant, and their condescendion when they meet non Christians they cannot convert is clear. They are people who have normal jobs and interact with others in ways that make it very clear how they feel, and how anyone who does not agree is obviously wrong and going to hell for their lack of belief in the right god.

It is my opinion and my experience of a very large portion of christians I know. I could sit here and name names, and tell stories, but that would be pointless as you do not know them. I have traveled all over this country, and it is very common to come across, specially in the south east of the country and much of the midwest.

The cartoon represents my experiences rather well, as I really don't care what other people subscribe to, as long as it doesn't interfere with others beliefs. Right wing christians want to change the country, and the people in it to fit their personal religion, as soon as they meet anyone who disagrees they scream about the war on their religion.

This is the part I asked you to provide evidence for. I bolded it when I replied to you. This is not stated as an opinion. It is stated as a fact. So I'd like you to back it up.

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This is the part I asked you to provide evidence for. I bolded it when I replied to you. This is not stated as an opinion. It is stated as a fact. So I'd like you to back it up.

I provided two links, which you apparently didn't bother to read which makes it clear what these groups are doing, and each article went into detail of the tactics used by each group to change things in the US. Just because you do not like the cartoon, it breaks no forum rules and I made it clear that it was aimed at those who acted the way that the cartoon indicated. I explained who those people were as well as gave you links to wiki's about each group. I have done my due diligence, you simply don't want me to have an opinion that differs from yours and will do what you can in order to try and squelch my opinion. I hope you can see the irony of the situation. :rolleyes:

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This is the part I asked you to provide evidence for. I bolded it when I replied to you. This is not stated as an opinion. It is stated as a fact. So I'd like you to back it up.

I believe all Christian missionary work would fit into this category, as far as identifying agressive proseltyzing groups. As far as condecension, why, just read some of the posts in this thread. I have personally experienced this myself, and my experience is not unique.

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. Just because you do not like the cartoon, it breaks no forum rules and I made it clear that it was aimed at those who acted the way that the cartoon indicated.

I saw the cartoon you posted, was not saying in any way ALL Christians are like that.. It was just showing a typical example of certain Christians who in fact have got on like that and were vocal about it. I saw nothing wrong with your post or the cartoon.

To add, ... In some cases, when a non Christian is asked - How come you do not favour Christianity, why wont you ever consider it ?

What so many people forget is, or IMO fail to notice... The certain Christians ( Not meaning all obviously lol) that are like the one seen in your cartoon are the kind that can indeed put so many people off the faith

I have read so many views and comments from Non Christians who say that so many followers who are more outspoken and use their faith like a weapon, can be off putting.. it is a pity that these kind of loud extreme Christians ruin it for the rest of the Christians that never bother anyone

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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The first part is Niki's thoughts, so I will give you his responce: 'if you didn't have the right to marry the person you love, you'd be complaing too. Never-mind having religious hotheads blatantly telling me the marriage we want makes a god I don't even believe in, hate me' Niki's getting grumpy and cursing a lot, so I'll paraphrase- yeah, we have some nice freedoms and rights, but the one we are seeking at this time is being dangled in front of us, denied us because of the religous beliefs of our leaders who don't even hold themselves to the standards they want to hold us to.

So your, well Nikolai's beef is that you do not have the rights you want. Therefore would you agree that calling the country not free might be something of an overstatement? It is a free country, but it does not have all the rules and laws that you would like it to have. I do not really care about what God thinks about the two of you getting married to be quite honest, but I think we have nomenclature practises that should offer the gay community an alternate ceremony to marriage that is both politically and factually correct by way of description.

The person I quoted said indirectly that stemcell research and and abortion were murder. My comment was supposed to be taken as 'oh, and the crusades weren't?'

They are far from the same thing, I felt the comparison was just drama to stir up people.

I was born here. I inherited no money. I come home every night in pain because of how hard I work and for so little. I don't take, I earn.

You live in a free society, have the right to vote, and enjoy the benefits that society provides for you. Many people are somewhat patriotic, and Americans are known to be more patriotic than most, so I feel your comment of wishing to leave is an insult. Both the to country and the people that made the country what it is. It was not necessary, such things I feel you should keep to yourself.

Yes. Yes, I have thought about that. I used to be an advocate for civil unions until I realized that they don't give the same rights here. That, and mariage gave up the right to be a religous matter when it became a legal matter.

Yet civil unions as I showed you do have the same rights here, so why not make that law an example, and attempt to get more people to listen and follow an example that you can use in real time to prove any point you may have about the success of the new laws. If a civil union has exactly the same rights, then why is it not an acceptable alternative? Or the ceremony of Adelphopoiesis? I do not agree that religion has no place in marriage, that is your opinion, what I do know is that religion has looked after marriage for thousands of years, and I do not see why all of a sudden it needs to be changed to suit a minority when alternatives are available, and more appropriate.

So with the topic of "Why Christians" they are not the most vocal people against gay unions, as I have pointed out in vain to and gay community supporter, the alternative of Adelphopoiesis is a Christian ceremony. There have been advocates for the gay community in Christianity for a long time, but I do not think the same sympathies exist within the Muslim community, and it is a formidable community. Why then are Christians the ones in the line of fire with regards to this subject? Is the Muslim community to scary to broach the issue with?

Edited by psyche101

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