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The Puzzler

Trojans were Basques?

641 posts in this topic

None of which is supported by actual evidence whether physical or genetic. Comparative mythology/lego-linguistics, etc., particularly as applied in this forum, is the equivalent of making it up as you go along and presenting it as fact so I can see your interest in it. But it's not something with any scientific credibility to it, nor should it be seen that way.

cormac

That is fair enough cormac, but I'm not in this ANCIENT MYSTERIES & ALTERNATIVE HISTORY Forum to provide you with evidence of anything, except to discuss what could have been an alternate history and ingrained in some ancient mysteries, based in many underlying similaries, not nec. found or seen in picking up a piece of broken pottery yesterday. I respect archaeology, I wish I was an archaeologist, and I use it whenever I can, but I'm also aware enough to realise it's not the everything of history.

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That is fair enough cormac, but I'm not in this ANCIENT MYSTERIES & ALTERNATIVE HISTORY Forum to provide you with evidence of anything, except to discuss what could have been an alternate history and ingrained in some ancient mysteries, based in many underlying similaries, not nec. found or seen in picking up a piece of broken pottery yesterday. I respect archaeology, I wish I was an archaeologist, and I use it whenever I can, but I'm also aware enough to realise it's not the everything of history.

And the flip-side of this is that comparative mythology and lego-linguistics isn't even a beginning. As to your being here to discuss "what could have been", it's rarely put across that way but more often than not presented as if it's (somehow) a foregone conclusion, with as much or more validity than what the actual evidence shows. It's not and most people I know, other than you, apparently understand the distinction.

cormac

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That's OK kmt, I'm glad to hear your opinion, although I thought you'd answer my refute to your post in the Thera's ash topic, because I believe I did show that Athena and Poseidon were found in Linear B on Crete, contrare to what you thought. I'll just address the mythology issue in this post for now...

Doh! I forgot all about that post. Yes, I saw it, and I even found the book in which the translation was noted. In fact, I'm even considering ordering it because it looks interesting. I confess this is the first time I've ever heard mention of gods' names in Linear B, so it shows you what I know. I've done a fair share of reading on the script and how it was deciphered, but clearly I have more reading to do.

My time is also tight as of late, so I don't have a lot of free time to post. I imagine I've missed a number of posts to which I should have responded. I'll be back as soon as I'm able to. Family's in town and there will be training at the museum later in the weekend for a new exhibit coming up, so this weekend is pretty full.

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Here's what I know about the Basques

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_basques04.htm

Apparently they were occupying the area way before Troy became hemmm... Troy.

There are theories in France and abroad that Basques are most direct descendant of Neanderthals, which would explain their short stocky statures.

http://www.aoi.com.au/bcw/neanderbasque.htm

None of which came from official sources but hey, what can I say besides "never trust authority".

However the map showing the Neanderthal territory does includes Turkey and the later position of Troy which would explain some of the similarities in language.

And that area (Troy) is also called Asaland by Snorri Snorrison, the realm of the Nordic Gods.

This is an article about Basques being a descendant of Neanderthals...it's long but whatever, it's interesting.

This theory therefore simultaneously answers a second age-old question, 'What is the Origin of the Basques'?

Robert J Sawyer has recently published his book "Hominids" [2], a fictional account of an interaction between Sapiens humans and Neanderthals, but drawing on the latest scientific research about Neanderthals.

This research included studies of DNA extracted from bones of Neanderthal remains. The account mentions five months of painstaking work to extract a 379-nucleotide fragment from the control region of the Neanderthal's mitochondrial DNA, followed by use of a polymerase chain reaction to reproduce millions of copies of the recovered DNA.

This was carefully sequenced and then a check made of the corresponding mitochondrial DNA from 1,600 modern humans: Native Canadians, Polynesians. Australians, Africans, Asians, and Europeans. Every one of those 1,600 people had at least 371 nucleotides out of those 379 the same; the maximum deviation was just 8 nucleotides.

But the Neanderthal DNA had an average of only 352 nucleotides in common with the modern specimens; it deviated by 27 nucleotides. It was concluded that Homo sapiens and Neanderthals must have diverged from each other between 550,000 and 690,000 years ago for their DNA to be so different.

In contrast, all modern humans probably shared a common ancestor 150,000 or 200,000 years in the past. It was concluded that Neanderthals were probably a fully separate species from modern humans, not just a subspecies: Homo neanderthalensis, not Homo sapiens neanderthalensis.

Looking now at the evidence for the theory that the Basques are descended principally from Neanderthals, everything suddenly falls into place, and the supposition becomes almost self-evident.

Location: The 'home country' of the Neanderthals is well known to have been western Europe. One source says that they "dominated this area for at least a quarter of a million years". Many of the best Neanderthal specimens have originated from the Iberian Peninsular. The Basque Country, lying on the western side of the Pyrenees and on the border between Spain and France, fits in neatly with this location.

Goes on to discuss blood groups in detail as well.

Another highly distinguishing feature of the Basques is their language, which is related to no other on earth. According to [3], its ancestor was "spoken in western Europe before (possibly long before) the ancestors of all other modern western European languages". This source states that the most strenuous efforts at finding other relatives for Basque have been complete failures.

People have unsuccessfully tried to connect Basque with Berber, Egyptian and other African languages, with Iberian, Pictish, Etruscan, Minoan, Sumerian, the Finno-Ugric languages, the Caucasian languages, the Semitic languages, with almost all the languages of Africa and Asia, living and dead, and even with languages of the Pacific and of North America. Basque absolutely cannot be shown to be related to any other language at all [3].

The structure of the Basque language is also very distinctive, it is said to contain only nouns, verbs, and suffixes. The language strongly defines the Basque people [8]. In the Basque Language, called Euskera, there is no word for Basque. The only word defining a member of the group is Euskaldun, or Euskera speaker. The land is called Euskal Herria -- the land of Euskera speakers.

Lots more, it concludes:

When the article above was first made available on the Web in 2002, nine years, it contained some perhaps controversial suggestions.

Among these suggestions were that the Neanderthals had not become extinct as a result of competition with 'superior' modern humans; that instead, Neanderthals had merged with other humans to form a mixed, single modern species (Homo sapiens); and that the Basque people of the western Pyrenees had the largest genetic inheritance from the Neanderthals in their DNA.

The influence of blood groups on human inheritance was looked at, and it was explained that while the nuclear DNA (the main DNA considered in inheritance) of Basques might well have more Neanderthal inheritance than average, their mitichondrial DNA (passed on directly from mother to child) might have had all Neanderthal components bred out.

This was because infant haemolytic disease, where a Rhesus-negative mother mating with a Rhesus-positive man was likely to have only a single child survive, would mitigate against outbreeding Basque women having many descendants.

Nine years on, these suggestions are no longer controversial, and are becoming widely accepted. For example, a recent article [13] says:

People of European descent may be 5% Neanderthal, according to a DNA study that questions whether modern humans left Africa and replaced all other existing hominids.

It also mentions:

The researchers agree with recent studies that conclude Neanderthals did not contribute any mitochondrial DNA, or mtDNA, genetic material that is passed from mothers to children.

http://www.aoi.com.au/bcw/neanderbasque.htm

------------------------------

It's not just Basques imo either, it was originally the Western Atlantic seaboard people of Spain as well, were adept enough at sailing to have sailed into the Med and settled numerous early cultures.

But in the Basque language I found words that seem to point to place names in Troy (Ilium) and the area of Iberia in the Caucasus being so named as another Basque word, with root of Iber, river, named because of the large River Phasis that went into Colchis. The Sun city, the Basques are known to have a Sun worship. Apollo is equal to a Sun God, just as his twin sister Diana/Artemis is a moon Goddess, it's dark and light, day and night. This was the Trojan deity, the Iliad opens with the mention of Apollo.

"Sons of Atreus," he cried, "and all other Achaeans, may the gods who dwell in Olympus grant you to sack the city of Priam, and to reach your homes in safety; but free my daughter, and accept a ransom for her, in reverence to Apollo, son of Jove."

As far as religion is concerned the direction in which corpses were pointed leads us to believe there was some kind of sun worship.

Part of the problem also is the complete taking over of Europe by another people...

Archaeological and ethnographic findings indicate that Basque man evolved from Cro-Magnon man in this area over a period dating from about 40,000 years ago until distinct features were acquired approximately 7,000 years ago. Two thousand years later the sheep, not native to these lands, was introduced and horse and cattle farming came into being, as shown by Adolf Staffe. These circumstances made it necessary for the people to travel periodically and cultural contacts were thus made.

This period in the history of the Basque people can only make sense if it is studied in conjunction with the cultures of the surrounding areas, in the basin of the River Ebro and the region of Aquitaine.

Jose Miguel de Barandiaran states "This area is of particular importance in Basque archaeology and linguistic history as it coincides with the area of seasonal migration of flocks in search of pastures in the Pyrenees and where Basque place names are found in general." Luis Michelena reports that the Basque language has been spoken by these peoples since around 6,000 B.C. Basque was spoken in the whole of South Aquitaine and eastwards, to inside Catalonia (proved by inscriptions and place names). From the sixth century B.C. Indo-European culture wiped out all the pre-Indo-European languages spoken in Europe up to that time, with the exception of the Basque language.

Serious cultural and political problems arose from the above circumstances.

This well-defined pre-historic Basque people began to feature in history. The worst thing that can happen to a people is for it not to write its own history as this means such a people is at the mercy of other historians. The first news of the Basque people comes to us through the ancient geographers, in particular Pliny and Ptolemy. The "Journey of Antoninus" mentions names that indicate that the land of the Basques extended, not only to Aquitaine in the north but also far down the River Ebro to the south.

http://dametzdesign.com/euzkadi.html

Edited by The Puzzler

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Doh! I forgot all about that post. Yes, I saw it, and I even found the book in which the translation was noted. In fact, I'm even considering ordering it because it looks interesting. I confess this is the first time I've ever heard mention of gods' names in Linear B, so it shows you what I know. I've done a fair share of reading on the script and how it was deciphered, but clearly I have more reading to do.

My time is also tight as of late, so I don't have a lot of free time to post. I imagine I've missed a number of posts to which I should have responded. I'll be back as soon as I'm able to. Family's in town and there will be training at the museum later in the weekend for a new exhibit coming up, so this weekend is pretty full.

:tu:

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And the flip-side of this is that comparative mythology and lego-linguistics isn't even a beginning. As to your being here to discuss "what could have been", it's rarely put across that way but more often than not presented as if it's (somehow) a foregone conclusion, with as much or more validity than what the actual evidence shows. It's not and most people I know, other than you, apparently understand the distinction.

cormac

No, you are wrong, I started this topic saying I was asking 2 questions. I did not put forth this topic as a foregone conclusion, but based on what I can see, it could possibly have happened and will try and show the points that might validate it.

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No, you are wrong, I started this topic saying I was asking 2 questions. I did not put forth this topic as a foregone conclusion, but based on what I can see, it could possibly have happened and will try and show the points that might validate it.

And you've been shown evidence, particularly genetic evidence, that runs contrary to both questions. Both currently and in the past and you choose to ignore what's known in favor of what you'd like to be true. The first question I answered in a previous post, the second one has been pretty much answered in past posts dealing with mtDNA and Y Chromosome migrational patterns in Europe which started east to west. If anything, for the ancient Portugese to be responsible for anything we'd see a back-migration of haplogroups in the genetic record. However, the evidence does not show that.

As to foregone conclusions, have you actually read what you type in your own past posts. Yes, you do have a habit of presenting things as a foregone conclusion. This root-word/word sounds like that root-word/word so they "must" be related. A deity from one culture has similarities to one from another culture, so they "must" be one and the same. This, that or some other ancient writer said something was a fact, so it "must" be true. :rolleyes: It's no wonder that many don't take you seriously and I'm by far not the only one.

cormac

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The original inhabitants of Sicily were three defined groups of the Ancient peoples of Italy. The most prominent and by far the earliest of these was the Sicani, who according to Thucydides arrived from the Iberian Peninsula (perhaps Catalonia).[10][11] Important historical evidence has been discovered in the form of cave drawings by the Sicani, dated from the end of the Pleistocene epoch, around 8000 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily

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Sorry, here's the link for that picture, although I have it in a book I own as well. Fair enough, still, those Brazilians, who are Portugese seem very 'sexual' or such, like it is part of their culture.

http://www.art.com/products/p11720704-sa-i1346203/portuguese-women-eating-a-meal-goa.htm?aff=conf&ctid=0&rfid=355427&tkid=15034199&

Sorry, got sidetracked.

Thing is, Portugal is a staunchly catholic country. That doesn't seem like something "nice" catholic girls would do, especially in that time period. Likewise Brazil's attitudes are more modern in origin. I'd sooner think those were working girls and therefore not representative of common behavior.

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Sorry, got sidetracked.

Thing is, Portugal is a staunchly catholic country. That doesn't seem like something "nice" catholic girls would do, especially in that time period. Likewise Brazil's attitudes are more modern in origin. I'd sooner think those were working girls and therefore not representative of common behavior.

Possibly, yes.

I still think Basques (and Iberian, who imo would have spoken some kind of Basque to have that name of the country 'Iberia', which imo is simply 'land of rivers' in Basque) - though are a typical Mediterranean look that may have spread throughout, the ancient Cretan look particularly.

I mentioned the Sicani in my above post to cormac, I'll just add some more info to that for interest:

The Sicani are thought to be the oldest inhabitants of Sicily with a recorded name. The Greek historian Thucydides[1] claimed they immigrated from the Iberian Peninsula (perhaps Catalonia)[2][3] driven by the Ligurians from the river Sicanus, drawing his information from the Sicilian historian Antiochus of Syracuse, but his basis for saying this is unknown.[4] Important historical evidence has been discovered in the form of cave drawings by the Sicani, dated from the end of the Pleistocene Epoch, around 8000 BC[5] and this is probably the reason why Timaeus of Tauromenium considered them as aboriginal.[6] Some modern scholars think the Sicani may have been an Illyrian tribe that gained control of areas previously inhabited by native tribes.[7] Archaeological excavation has shown that they had received some Mycenean influence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicani

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Possibly, yes.

I still think Basques (and Iberian, who imo would have spoken some kind of Basque to have that name of the country 'Iberia', which imo is simply 'land of rivers' in Basque) - though are a typical Mediterranean look that may have spread throughout, the ancient Cretan look particularly.

I mentioned the Sicani in my above post to cormac, I'll just add some more info to that for interest:

The Sicani are thought to be the oldest inhabitants of Sicily with a recorded name. The Greek historian Thucydides[1] claimed they immigrated from the Iberian Peninsula (perhaps Catalonia)[2][3] driven by the Ligurians from the river Sicanus, drawing his information from the Sicilian historian Antiochus of Syracuse, but his basis for saying this is unknown.[4] Important historical evidence has been discovered in the form of cave drawings by the Sicani, dated from the end of the Pleistocene Epoch, around 8000 BC[5] and this is probably the reason why Timaeus of Tauromenium considered them as aboriginal.[6] Some modern scholars think the Sicani may have been an Illyrian tribe that gained control of areas previously inhabited by native tribes.[7] Archaeological excavation has shown that they had received some Mycenean influence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicani

And it doesn't support your speculation on any group of Iberians being the origins of the Sicani or of any other peoples of the Mediterranean. As noted even in your Wiki link, the Sicani can be reasonably dated to 8000 BC. But at the same time the known genetic group in Iberia, namely mtDNA Haplogroup V (dated c.13,600) is not in evidence as a point of origin for the early inhabitants of Sicily (the three major genetic lines there being H, J and U). Nor is the other line in Iberia (namely R1b1a2a1a1b which dates to c.6630 BC) found in Sicily and it's actually younger than the haplogroups already known to exist in the area.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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And it doesn't support your speculation on any group of Iberians being the origins of the Sicani or of any other peoples of the Mediterranean. As noted even in your Wiki link, the Sicani can be reasonably dated to 8000 BC. But at the same time the known genetic group in Iberia, namely mtDNA Haplogroup V (dated c.13,600) is not in evidence as a point of origin for the early inhabitants of Sicily (the three major genetic lines there being H, J and U). Nor is the other line in Iberia (namely R1b1a2a1a1b which dates to c.6630 BC) found in Sicily and it's actually younger than the haplogroups already known to exist in the area.

cormac

Hmm, this seems to refute that.

This is quite useful as a reference for those interested in E-M35 and its many subclades.

A quick comment on p. 53 where Sicily is discussed and the prevalence of R1b and I1 in the West is mentioned in the context of Phoenicians who settled in West Sicily.

Haplogroup I1 is probably to a large degree due to the Normans whose capital was in Palermo (NW Sicily). R1b on the other hand may have been added by the Normans, but may also be due to the pre-Greek populations of Sicily, such as the Sicani who were (after Herodotus) of Iberian origin.

Journal of Genetic Genealogy Volume 5, Number 1, Spring, 2009

Edit - Add link: http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2009/05/review-paper-on-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is a comment on the same page:

My major caveat to a Neolithic flow of West Asian lineages, specifically to Iberia, is the apparent lack of West Asian mtDNA in Neolithic samples from Portugal (the only novel clade found is V, while U(xU5), probably U6, is found both in Epipaleolithic and Neolithic populations at similar levels (Chandlers, Sykes and Zilhao 2005). And Portugal is the area most affected (after the already commented NW) by relatively high presence of haplogroup E1b1b1, in both the Greek and North African versions, within Iberia.

Without this ancient mtDNA data I'd be really inclined to think with you of a Cardial founder effect for West Iberian E1b1b1. Guess it could still be argued but the total lack of anything that is not H, V or U(xK) in the Neolithic Portugese sample of 23 individuals casts a doubt on any East Mediterranean gene flow at that time, IMO.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Hmm, this seems to refute that.

This is quite useful as a reference for those interested in E-M35 and its many subclades.

A quick comment on p. 53 where Sicily is discussed and the prevalence of R1b and I1 in the West is mentioned in the context of Phoenicians who settled in West Sicily.

Haplogroup I1 is probably to a large degree due to the Normans whose capital was in Palermo (NW Sicily). R1b on the other hand may have been added by the Normans, but may also be due to the pre-Greek populations of Sicily, such as the Sicani who were (after Herodotus) of Iberian origin.

Journal of Genetic Genealogy Volume 5, Number 1, Spring, 2009

Edit - Add link: http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2009/05/review-paper-on-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html

No, it doesn't refute anything. R1b, which originated in the east is the parent group of R1b1a2a1a1b. The latter of which is Iberian in origin. E-M35, also known as E1b1b1, is African in origin which also has nothing to do with Iberia.

cormac

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Stephen Oppenheimer is a believer in R1b origin in Iberia.

Stephen Oppenheimer also deals with this haplogroup in his book Origins of the British, giving the R1b clan patriarch the Basque name "Ruisko" in honour of what he thinks is the Iberian origin of R1b.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

He thinks that Britain is showing that it was inhabited by the Iberians before the later Anglo-Saxon and Celtic arrivals. Which makes sense considering the megaliths built there are like the ones all throughout Southern France and Spain - that is my debate too, the megalithic builders of Europe also built the megalithic temples throughout the Mediterranean, which is why I say Malta also.

Synthesizing the genetic evidence with linguistics, archaeology and the historical record, Oppenheimer shows how long-term Scandinavian trade and immigration contributed the remaining quarter – mostly before the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons. These migrations may have introduced the earliest forms of English.

And what of the Celts we know – the Irish, Scots and Welsh? Scholars have traditionally placed their origins in Iron Age Central Europe, but Oppenheimer’s new data clearly show that the Welsh, Irish and other Atlanticfringe peoples derive from Ice Age refuges in the Basque country and Spain. They came by an Atlantic coastal route many thousands of years ago, though the Celtic languages we know of today were brought in by later migrations, following the same route, during Neolithic times.

Stephen Oppenheimer shows us, in his meticulous analysis, that there is in truth a deep genetic line dividing the English from the rest of the British people but that, fascinatingly, the roots of that separate identity go back not 1500 years but 6,000. The real story of the British peoples is one of extraordinary continuity and enduring lineage that has survived all onslaughts.

'Oppenheimer calls his book "a genetic detective story". It is. Pre-Roman language in western Europe was a locked-room mystery - until someone looked for the key.'

Aubrey Burl, Archaeologist & author on megalithic monuments

http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/stephenoppenheimer/origins_of_the_british.php

Maybe the older lines of R1b are yet to found in Europe or the people that carried it are non existant to find now. The overlaying IE speakers took over alot of Europe. They include Celts imo, from Thrace and the Black Sea that came into the areas of the ancient Basques and Iberians.

You know why the English Royals are said to be Trojan? From Brutus? Maybe, how about from Eleanor of Aquitaine, who married Henry, since Aquitani were originally Iberian Basques as well and as I said, they were Trojans... :w00t:

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Stephen Oppenheimer is a believer in R1b origin in Iberia.

Stephen Oppenheimer also deals with this haplogroup in his book Origins of the British, giving the R1b clan patriarch the Basque name "Ruisko" in honour of what he thinks is the Iberian origin of R1b.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

He thinks that Britain is showing that it was inhabited by the Iberians before the later Anglo-Saxon and Celtic arrivals. Which makes sense considering the megaliths built there are like the ones all throughout Southern France and Spain - that is my debate too, the megalithic builders of Europe also built the megalithic temples throughout the Mediterranean, which is why I say Malta also.

Synthesizing the genetic evidence with linguistics, archaeology and the historical record, Oppenheimer shows how long-term Scandinavian trade and immigration contributed the remaining quarter – mostly before the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons. These migrations may have introduced the earliest forms of English.

And what of the Celts we know – the Irish, Scots and Welsh? Scholars have traditionally placed their origins in Iron Age Central Europe, but Oppenheimer’s new data clearly show that the Welsh, Irish and other Atlanticfringe peoples derive from Ice Age refuges in the Basque country and Spain. They came by an Atlantic coastal route many thousands of years ago, though the Celtic languages we know of today were brought in by later migrations, following the same route, during Neolithic times.

Stephen Oppenheimer shows us, in his meticulous analysis, that there is in truth a deep genetic line dividing the English from the rest of the British people but that, fascinatingly, the roots of that separate identity go back not 1500 years but 6,000. The real story of the British peoples is one of extraordinary continuity and enduring lineage that has survived all onslaughts.

'Oppenheimer calls his book "a genetic detective story". It is. Pre-Roman language in western Europe was a locked-room mystery - until someone looked for the key.'

Aubrey Burl, Archaeologist & author on megalithic monuments

http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/stephenoppenheimer/origins_of_the_british.php

Maybe the older lines of R1b are yet to found in Europe or the people that carried it are non existant to find now. The overlaying IE speakers took over alot of Europe. They include Celts imo, from Thrace and the Black Sea that came into the areas of the ancient Basques and Iberians.

You know why the English Royals are said to be Trojan? From Brutus? Maybe, how about from Eleanor of Aquitaine, who married Henry, since Aquitani were originally Iberian Basques as well and as I said, they were Trojans... :w00t:

I have and have read Stephen Oppenheimer's book Origins of the British. And while it is true that a subgroup of R1b, namely R1b1a2a1a1b, originated in Iberia, the parent group R1b DID NOT. So from that perspective he was wrong. R1b-M269 actually entered Europe c.7000 BC through Anatolia.

cormac

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And it doesn't support your speculation on any group of Iberians being the origins of the Sicani or of any other peoples of the Mediterranean. As noted even in your Wiki link, the Sicani can be reasonably dated to 8000 BC. But at the same time the known genetic group in Iberia, namely mtDNA Haplogroup V (dated c.13,600) is not in evidence as a point of origin for the early inhabitants of Sicily (the three major genetic lines there being H, J and U). Nor is the other line in Iberia (namely R1b1a2a1a1b which dates to c.6630 BC) found in Sicily and it's actually younger than the haplogroups already known to exist in the area.

cormac

It doesn't seem quite so simple to me.

This article talks about V and it not being present in the older Basque samples, but then about genetic drift at the time of 10,000-8,000BC.

The article is basically comparing this quote: It is found with particularly high concentrations in the Saami People of northern Scandinavia, as well as the Basque people (10.4%) [1] and somewhat higher among the isolated Pasiegos in nearby Cantabria. It also is found in particularly high concentrations (16.3%) among the Berbers of Matmata, Tunisia.[3] The highest levels are in Scandinavian and Western and North African populations. It is spread at varying low levels across Europe and smaller portions of West and Central Asia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_V_(mtDNA)

mtDNA sequence variation was studied in 121 dental samples from four Basque prehistoric sites, by high-resolution RFLP analysis. The results of this study are corroborated by (1) parallel analysis of 92 bone samples, (2) the use of controls during extraction and amplification, and (3) typing by both positive and negative restriction of the linked sites that characterize each haplogroup. The absence of haplogroup V in the prehistoric samples analyzed conflicts with the hypothesis proposed by Torroni et al., in which haplogroup V is considered as an mtDNA marker for a major Paleolithic population expansion from southwestern Europe, occurring approximately 10,000-15,000 years before the present (YBP). Our samples from the Basque Country provide a valuable tool for checking the previous hypothesis, which is based on genetic data from present-day populations. In light of the available data, the most realistic scenario to explain the origin and distribution of haplogroup V suggests that the mutation defining that haplogroup (4577 NlaIII) appeared at a time when the effective population size was small enough to allow genetic drift to act-and that such drift is responsible for the heterogeneity observed in Basques, with regard to the frequency of haplogroup V (0%-20%). This is compatible with the attributed date for the origin of that mutation (10,000-15, 000 YBP), because during the postglacial period (the Mesolithic, approximately 11,000 YBP) there was a major demographic change in the Basque Country, which minimized the effect of genetic drift. This interpretation does not rely on migratory movements to explain the distribution of haplogroup V in present-day Indo-European populations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10364533

Maybe genetic drift was at work elsewhere too.

This article explains the tests they did to get the results mentioned in the above paper:

This study provides a more complete characterization of the mitochondrial genome variability of the Basques, including data on the hypervariable segment HVII of the D-loop region, which remains relatively unknown. To that end, genomic DNA from 55 healthy men living in the Arratia Valley (Biscay province) and the Goiherri region (Guipúzcoa province) was examined by direct sequencing. Three-generation pedigree charts were compiled to ensure the collection from autochthonous individuals. The most notable findings emerging from the analysis of haplogroup composition are: (i) lack of U8a mitochondrial lineage, a rare subhaplogroup recently identified in Basques and proposed as a Paleolithic marker, (ii) low frequency of haplogroup V, which conflicts with results of earlier analyses describing high frequencies in southwestern Europe, and (iii) high frequency of haplogroup J, especially subhaplogroups J1c1 and J2a. The frequency of haplogroup J does not coincide with previous mtDNA studies in present-day Basques, but is congruent with frequencies found in prehistoric and historic Basque populations. In explaining divergence in haplogroup composition between modern Basque samples, we hypothesized spatial heterogeneity promoted by population fragmentation due to extreme limitation of dispersal opportunities during the Pleistocene glaciations. Similarities between extinct and extant Basque populations as for the high frequency of lineage J, as well as the abundance of this haplogroup in northern Spain endorse a shift in the focus of attention of mtDNA analysts. A refined dissection of haplogroup J might provide more solid evidence about the process of postglacial recolonization of Europe, and thus about the shaping of the European gene pool.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18172868

I really don't want to bog the topic down with genetics though, I think they are not as conclusive or black and white as they seem and wouldn't rely on them to disprove anything quite frankly.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Malta:

The Sicani were the only tribe known to have inhabited the island at this time[30][31] and are generally regarded as related to the Iberians.[32] The population on Malta grew cereals, raised domestic livestock and, in common with other ancient Mediterranean cultures, worshiped a fertility figure represented in Maltese prehistoric artifacts as exhibiting the large proportions seen in similar statuettes, including the Venus of Willendorf.

Pottery from the Għar Dalam phase is similar to pottery found in Agrigento, Sicily. A culture of megalithic temple builders then either supplanted or arose from this early period. During 3500 BC, these people built some of the oldest existing, free-standing structures in the world in the form of the megalithic Ġgantija temples on Gozo;[33] other early temples include those at Ħaġar Qim and Mnajdra.[34][35][36]

The temples have a distinctive architecture, typically a complex trefoil design, and were used from 4000–2500 BC. Animal bones and a knife found behind a removable altar stone suggest that temple rituals included animal sacrifice. Tentative information suggests that the sacrifices were made to the goddess of fertility, whose statue is now in the National Museum of Archaeology in Valletta.[37] The culture apparently disappeared from the Maltese Islands around 2500 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Iberians, although living in Spain, were different to Basques but the time frame I am working with 5000-4000BC is open to the suggestion they may have been part of the same group of pre-IE speaking people as Basques and all these Atlantic people were tied in as one unit according to Barry Cunliffe's book.

The Iberian language, like the rest of paleohispanic languages, became extinct by the 1st to 2nd centuries AD, after being gradually replaced by Latin. Iberian seems to be a language isolate. It is generally considered as a non-Indo-European language (although a 1978 study found many similarities between Iberian and the Italic languages[7]). Links with other languages have been claimed, but they have not been demonstrated. One such proposed link was with the Basque language, but this theory is also disputed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberians

Iberian origins are not clear; however, there are three theories on the subject:

One theory suggests that they arrived in Spain in the Neolithic period, with their arrival being dated from as early as the fifth millennium BC to the third millennium BC (see Cardium culture). Most scholars adhering to this theory believe from archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence that the Iberians came from a region farther east in the Mediterranean. Others have suggested that they may have originated in North Africa. This portion of the theory is supported by an observation of C. Michael Hogan who points out similarities between Chalcolithic artefacts in Iberia with Neolithic pottery in parts of Morocco.[2] The Iberians would have initially settled along the eastern coast of Spain, and then possibly spread throughout the rest of the Iberian Peninsula.[3][4][5]

An alternative theory states that they were part of the original inhabitants of Western Europe and the creators of or heirs to the area's extensive megalithic culture, a theory possibly supported by genetic studies. The Iberians would therefore be similar to the populations subdued by the Celts in the first millennium BC in Ireland, Britain and France.[citation needed]

Another theory states that Iberians were descendants of the Urnfield people that lived in the same area (Languedoc, Catalunya, Province of Castellón) some centuries before the rise of the Iberian civilization. It is interesting to note that Iberians and Urnfield people had similar funeral customs (cremation).[citation needed]

Celts crossed the Pyrenees into Spain in two major migrations in the ninth and the 7th centuries BC.

Edited by The Puzzler

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It doesn't seem quite so simple to me.

This article talks about V and it not being present in the older Basque samples, but then about genetic drift at the time of 10,000-8,000BC.

The article is basically comparing this quote: It is found with particularly high concentrations in the Saami People of northern Scandinavia, as well as the Basque people (10.4%) [1] and somewhat higher among the isolated Pasiegos in nearby Cantabria. It also is found in particularly high concentrations (16.3%) among the Berbers of Matmata, Tunisia.[3] The highest levels are in Scandinavian and Western and North African populations. It is spread at varying low levels across Europe and smaller portions of West and Central Asia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_V_(mtDNA)

mtDNA sequence variation was studied in 121 dental samples from four Basque prehistoric sites, by high-resolution RFLP analysis. The results of this study are corroborated by (1) parallel analysis of 92 bone samples, (2) the use of controls during extraction and amplification, and (3) typing by both positive and negative restriction of the linked sites that characterize each haplogroup. The absence of haplogroup V in the prehistoric samples analyzed conflicts with the hypothesis proposed by Torroni et al., in which haplogroup V is considered as an mtDNA marker for a major Paleolithic population expansion from southwestern Europe, occurring approximately 10,000-15,000 years before the present (YBP). Our samples from the Basque Country provide a valuable tool for checking the previous hypothesis, which is based on genetic data from present-day populations. In light of the available data, the most realistic scenario to explain the origin and distribution of haplogroup V suggests that the mutation defining that haplogroup (4577 NlaIII) appeared at a time when the effective population size was small enough to allow genetic drift to act-and that such drift is responsible for the heterogeneity observed in Basques, with regard to the frequency of haplogroup V (0%-20%). This is compatible with the attributed date for the origin of that mutation (10,000-15, 000 YBP), because during the postglacial period (the Mesolithic, approximately 11,000 YBP) there was a major demographic change in the Basque Country, which minimized the effect of genetic drift. This interpretation does not rely on migratory movements to explain the distribution of haplogroup V in present-day Indo-European populations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10364533

Maybe genetic drift was at work elsewhere too.

This article explains the tests they did to get the results mentioned in the above paper:

This study provides a more complete characterization of the mitochondrial genome variability of the Basques, including data on the hypervariable segment HVII of the D-loop region, which remains relatively unknown. To that end, genomic DNA from 55 healthy men living in the Arratia Valley (Biscay province) and the Goiherri region (Guipúzcoa province) was examined by direct sequencing. Three-generation pedigree charts were compiled to ensure the collection from autochthonous individuals. The most notable findings emerging from the analysis of haplogroup composition are: (i) lack of U8a mitochondrial lineage, a rare subhaplogroup recently identified in Basques and proposed as a Paleolithic marker, (ii) low frequency of haplogroup V, which conflicts with results of earlier analyses describing high frequencies in southwestern Europe, and (iii) high frequency of haplogroup J, especially subhaplogroups J1c1 and J2a. The frequency of haplogroup J does not coincide with previous mtDNA studies in present-day Basques, but is congruent with frequencies found in prehistoric and historic Basque populations. In explaining divergence in haplogroup composition between modern Basque samples, we hypothesized spatial heterogeneity promoted by population fragmentation due to extreme limitation of dispersal opportunities during the Pleistocene glaciations. Similarities between extinct and extant Basque populations as for the high frequency of lineage J, as well as the abundance of this haplogroup in northern Spain endorse a shift in the focus of attention of mtDNA analysts. A refined dissection of haplogroup J might provide more solid evidence about the process of postglacial recolonization of Europe, and thus about the shaping of the European gene pool.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18172868

I really don't want to bog the topic down with genetics though, I think they are not as conclusive or black and white as they seem and wouldn't rely on them to disprove anything quite frankly.

Your last link effectively voids the first two, showing that:

1) U8a isn't in evidence so cannot be used to claim a paleolithic origin for the Basques.

2) A low frequency of Haplogroup V, which means it IS NOT the origin of the Basques.

3) A high frequency of J1c1 and J2a, NEITHER of which originate in Iberia.

NONE of which shows ancient Portugese as having any significant influence on the population of the Mediterranean.

There's also this from a recent article:

The first time haplogroup V was proposed as a sign of

post-glacial human recolonization of Northern Europe

from a Franco-Cantabrian refuge (Torroni et al., 1998),

V frequencies in Basques (20%) and Catalans (24%) were

found to be surprisingly high. However, this should now

be considered as due to sampling errors because when

sample sizes were increased in posterior analyses, V

frequencies in the Basque Country dropped to 12.4%

(Torroni et al., 2001) and 10.2% (Maca-Meyer et al., 2003).

In this study, haplogroup V frequencies in the Cornice

are at their peak in Cantabria (19%), dropping westwards

to 5.6% in Asturias and to 3.8% in Galicia. In the Basque

Country, haplogroup V frequencies ranged from 11.7% in

Guipuzcoa to 5.9% in the Alava province. Finally, in a

recent survey (Alvarez-Iglesias et al., 2009), V frequencies

for Catalonia were estimated at around only 3%.

Diversity values for V are significantly higher in Southern

Iberia than in the Cornice (Po0.05). Excluding

Scandinavia, the lowest diversities are found in Northern

Africa and the Iberian northeast.

The post-glacial refuge expansion of V from a Franco-

Cantabrian refugee hypothesis did not receive unanimous

acceptation. It was first questioned on the basis of a

lack of V representatives in ancient Basque samples

(Izagirre and de la Rua, 1999) and its later presence in a

historical sample from Alava (Alzualde et al., 2005), and

second, for a lack of any directional gene-flow process of

V along the proposed north-west European transects

(Simoni et al., 2000). It was suggested that perhaps the

Cantabrian area was a more probable expansion centre

than the Basque Country (Maca-Meyer et al., 2003).

However, the lower diversity values found here for this

putative area compared with Southern Iberia also

weaken this alternative. Furthermore, a recent mtDNA

study of French populations included in the hypothetical

last glacial maximum refuge stand out by their shortage

of V lineages (Dubut et al., 2004).

Using mitochondrial DNA to test the hypothesis of a European post-glacial human recolonization from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge

The recent article effectively voids the idea of a Franco-Cantabrian refuge and any significant influence of Hg V on same.

cormac

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More reading gets me thinking a connection from the Cantabrian people and Etruscans exist. Sacrificed horses to an unnamed God of War, that's very reminiscent of the Trojan Horse too.

Literary and ephigraphic evidence confirms that, like their Gallaeci and Astures neighbours’, the Cantabri were polytheistic, worshipping a complex, vast pantheon of male and female Indo-European deities in sacred oak or pine woods, mountains, water-courses and small rural sanctuaries.

Druidism does not appear to have been practiced by the Cantabri, though there is enough evidence for the existence of a organized priestly class who performed elaborated rites, which included ritual steam baths, festive dances, oracles, divination, human and animal sacrifices. To this respect, Strabo[5] mentions that the peoples of the north-west sacrificed horses to an unnamed God of War, and both Horace[6] and Silius Italicus[7] added that the Concani had the custom of drinking the horse’s blood at the ceremony.

Lots of nice things there...

According to Pliny the Elder[8] Cantabria also contained gold, silver, tin, lead and iron mines, as well as magnetite and amber, but little is known about them; Strabo[9] also mentions salt extraction in mines, such as the ones existent around Cabezón de la Sal

They comprised eleven or so tribes whose tribal names betray Ligurian, Aquitanian, Indo-Aryan, Celtiberian and Gallic affiliation – the Avarigines, Blendii, Plentusii, Camarici (or Tamarici), Concani, Coniaci, Moroecani, Noegi, Orgenomesci, Salaeni, Vadinienses and the Velliques.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabri

detailed analysis of place-names in ancient Cantabria shows a strong Celtic element along with an almost equally strong "Para-Celtic" element (both Indo-European) and thus disproves the idea of a substantial pre-Indo-European or Basque presence in the region.[2] This supports the earlier view that Jürgen Untermann considered the most plausible, coinciding with archaeological evidence put forward by Ruiz-Galvez in 1998 [3], that the Celtic settlement of the Iberian Peninsula was made by people who arrived via the Atlantic Ocean in an area between French Brittany and the mouth of the River Garona, finally settling along the Galician and Cantabrian coast.

The Celts appear to have landed in this area coming in from the Atlantic it says - from where I wonder. Northern Europe maybe.

644px-Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

The Celtiberians were Celtic-speaking people of the Iberian Peninsula in the final centuries BC. These tribes or nation spoke the Celtiberian language.[1][2]

The term Celtiberi appears in accounts by Diodorus Siculus,[3] Appian[4] and Martial[5] who recognized intermarriage between Celts and Iberians after a period of continuous warfare, though Barry Cunliffe says 'this has the ring of guesswork about it';[6] Strabo just saw the Celtiberians as Celts recognising them as a branch of the Celti.[1] Extant tribal names include the Arevaci, Belli, Titti, and Lusones.Pliny considers the Celts from Iberia to have migrated from Lusitania's Celtici which he appears to regard as the original seat of the whole Celtic population of the Iberian peninsula including the Celtiberians, on the ground of an identity of sacred rites, language, and names of cities.

It appears to Pliny that the Celts came into the whole of Iberia through Celtica, in Lusitania (Portugal area). See map. So, possibly the Celts arrived in the Iberian Peninsula through Cantabri, to which they kept going south and colonised Celtica as well, then crept east all through Iberia/Spain.

I doubt this was earlier than 1200-1000BC at max.

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.

3) A high frequency of J1c1 and J2a, NEITHER of which originate in Iberia.

cormac

Who said it has to originate in Iberia?

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Who said it has to originate in Iberia?

That was part of the three points from your last of three links. Which run counter to your Iberian/Basque/Portugese origin of anything from a genetic standpoint, concerning the Mediterranean. Even the truth about R1b's origins, contrary to Oppenheimer's claim, don't support your speculations.

cormac

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One of the main things I was following was megaliths, from the European Megalithic people, the earliest known are in Portugal:

Circa 5000 BC: Constructions in Portugal (Évora). Emergence of the Atlantic Neolithic period, the age of agriculture along the western shores of Europe during the sixth millennium B.C. culture of La Almagra near by, perhaps procedent from Africa.

Circa 4800 BC: Constructions in Brittany (Barnenez) and Poitou (Bougon).

Circa 4400 BC: Constructions in Malta (Skorba temples).

Circa 4000 BC: Constructions in Brittany (Carnac), Portugal (Lisbon), France (central and southern), Corsica, England and Wales.

Circa 3700 BC: Constructions in Ireland (Knockiveagh and elsewhere).

Circa 3600 BC: Constructions in England (Maumbury Rings and Godmanchester), and Malta (Ġgantija and Mnajdra temples).

Circa 3500 BC: Constructions in Spain (Málaga and Guadiana), Ireland (south-west), France (Arles and the north), Sardinia, Sicily, Malta (and elsewhere in the Mediterranean), Belgium (north-east) and Germany (central and south-west).

Circa 3400 BC: Constructions in Ireland (Newgrange), Netherlands (north-east), Germany (northern and central) Sweden and Denmark.

Circa 3300 BC: Constructions in France (Carnac stones)

Circa 3200 BC: Constructions in Malta (Ħaġar Qim and Tarxien).

Circa 3000 BC: Constructions in France (Saumur, Dordogne, Languedoc, Biscay, and the Mediterranean coast), Spain (Los Millares), Sicily, Belgium (Ardennes), and Orkney, as well as the first henges (circular earthworks) in Britain.

[edit] ChalcolithicCirca 2500 BC: Constructions in Brittany (Le Menec, Kermario and elsewhere), Italy (Otranto), Sardinia, and Scotland (northeast), plus the climax of the megalithic Bell-beaker culture in Iberia, Germany, and the British Isles (stone circle at Stonehenge). With the bell-beakers, the Neolithic period gave way to the Chalcolithic, the age of copper.

Circa 2400 BC: The Bell-beaker culture was dominant in Britain, and hundreds of smaller stone circles were built in the British Isles at this time.

[edit] Bronze AgeCirca 2000 BC: Constructions in Brittany (Er Grah), Italy (Bari), Sardinia (northern), and Scotland (Callanish). The Chalcolithic period gave way to the Bronze Age in western and northern Europe.

Circa 1800 BC: Constructions in Italy (Giovinazzo).

Circa 1500 BC: Constructions in Portugal (Alter Pedroso and Mourela).

Circa 1400 BC: Burial of the Egtved Girl in Denmark, whose body is today one of the most well-preserved examples of its kind.

Circa 1200 BC: Last vestiges of the megalithic tradition in the Mediterranean and elsewhere come to an end during the general population upheaval known to ancient history as the Invasions of the Sea Peoples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalith

The Invasion of the Sea Peoples seems to occur at the same time that the earliest Celts could have arrived in Cantabri or Celtica (by the Atlantic)...

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It's been a while and in my absence, its good too see more on the Iberian Spain question. I've always thought that Iberians in Spain are the very same Caucasus Iberians. I'll add some text to that end. My quotes are from a book called Archaic England (AE) by Harold Bayley, pub - J.B. Lippincott Co. (Philadelphi) - Chapman & Hall LTD. (London), 1920.

(AE, after ~ p. 328) "On the Sierra de 'Elvira' near Granada used to stand Ilibiris whose coins are inscribed ILIBERI, ILBRS, ILIBERRIS, LIBER, ILBERNEN, ILBRNAKN, ILBREKIN, and these legends may be connoted with the famous Irish leprechaun, or Lubarkin whose figures less prominently in England as the Lubrican or Lubberkin. Sometimes the Irish knock off the 'holy' and refer simply to 'a little prechaun', but more usual form is Lubarkin: this most remarkable of the fairy tribe in Ireland is supposed to be peculiar to that island, but one would have once met him at Brecon, or Brychain at Brecknock, at Brichin in Forfarshrine, at Burchington in Kent, at Barking near London, and in many more directions. In connection with Iberia in the West there occur references to a giant Bergyon, who may be connoted with Burchun of the Asiatic Buratys. The religion of these Buratys was , said Bell, downright paganism of the grossest kind: he adds the information, 'they talk, indeed, of an Almighty and Good Being who created all things, whom they call Burchum; but see bewildered in obscure and fabulous notions concerning His nature and government'. Inquires may prove that these Burchum worshiping Buratys were of the Asiatic Iberian race which Strabo supposed were descendants of Western Iberi."

So I would claim (my Grand Global Genome theory) that the Buryans (Burjans as Arabic) are the same Siberian, Iberians (Caucasus), who went to Spain, and to India as the god Kubera, and this ties into the pygmy-leprechaun of England and Ireland. The Author here failed to mention Siberian god of mountains "Tengra", and Tengranism practiced by the shamans from here, nor the the factor that they should be the blacksmiths as well, who made the coins he refers to in this book, in my opinion, as they should be miners and metallugist by my approximations. The salt mime in Azerbaijan date to 5000 BC. Ringstone structures can also be found here. I would also claim them as Hyperboreans, and the Alboran, and Alborean Seas off the Spanish coastlines, and Balearic Isles. Unfortunately, the coins limit the timeline in Iberian Spain to about 400 BC, unless someone has an earlier date, and these coins are typified as Celtiberian in general, as well as some of the Celtiberian script on them. These folks would be of a "wolf-tribe" tamga, and some coins exhibit wolf, horses, and bulls. I'm aware of a Bora named mint in Spain regions. An unbridled horse on coins can mean "LIBERTY" as well. The author discusses this in the same book.

I think they are also of Bad Tibira in Sumer, and the city called Ur (dog) perhaps. I 'm also attempting to assimilate the tribe of Benjamin of Israel (the archers) into this Sibero-Ibero envelope. The biblical Abraham originates from Ur. Bad Tibira is the Sumerian "blacksmiths" location, and close to Ur. Temples related to Ur are called Ur Bar Ra (Urbarra) here. One should note that Bad Tibira received its ore from Mt. Arali in Africa, as one source within the old text, because the Sumerian lowlands didn't posses any good ore. Bad Tibira dates to ~3000BC and the Sumerian 2nd dynasty.

I agree with the megalith timeline referenced herein, and this is the same structures which I think can be a Hyperborean-Apollo type migrations, that also became one of the tribal builders of the megaliths. My study only traces Buryan-Burjan-Borean type tribes, however the Budin, Budini (Odin), named tribes are gaining more prominence as related, and does lead to a Buri-Bor-Odin-Thor relationships. I believe that the post Trojan War date is correct for most of my research concerning this Central Asian-European connection to actual text, but the megalithic structures certainly exhibits locational names that strongly suggests earlier settlements than the Iron Age time frames. Should be an earlier, more barbaric episode in Spain, and elsewhere. As Celts, my tribe is likely the Fir-Bolg, and/or the Eburones, around Belgium, or the Netherlands. I also believe the Norse orginate in the East Baltic, the became West Baltic later, that is Sweeden-Danish-Iceland Scandinavians. I see the Finnic-Saami regions and the Russian rivers as the earlier migration path, and to be higher probability. This connects Norse myths to Iberians of the Caucasus, and, also to Spain therefrom. Noah is from here too, Mt Ararat, or Georgia (al Burjan in Iranian myths).

Whether or not any of these people stayed in these locations as a DNA record today should be part of analysis, as in some cases, miners would extract ore to the extent ore would produce, and they could simply leave if the ore ran out. Some studies have mentioned only fragments of a settlements at all around some smaller ancient mined locations. I think the Phoenicians could be of this nature as they were seemingly "traders", not miners perhaps. I think the Hyperboreans and Phoenicians were early trading partners, so this could allow a miner-Sea People pathway to go west to Spain.

The god Kabeiros is on Spain's coins (Belearic Isles), on Ligurian coins (on the Genoa question), and on Phoenician coins. Also, on Thessaly coins (see Veria, Berea in Macedonia).

Thanks for the blog and I hope this brings some areas of interest to the table, GGG guy.

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That was part of the three points from your last of three links. Which run counter to your Iberian/Basque/Portugese origin of anything from a genetic standpoint, concerning the Mediterranean. Even the truth about R1b's origins, contrary to Oppenheimer's claim, don't support your speculations.

cormac

The Iberians are a mixed lot, it's hard to know exactly who they were, let alone what each tribes dna was imo. The language of the Basques is more what I think left the area, whether this includes Basques themself, I couldn't be sure, I'll admit that - they could have been Aquitani or other nearby extinct Basque language people, the genetics don't necessarily have to match up imo, many other people could have spoken the Basque language, as I said, the Aquitani did.

Note this also:

The Iberians were not a clearly defined culture, ethnic group or political entity. The name is instead a blanket term for a number of peoples belonging to a pre-Roman Iron Age culture inhabiting the eastern and southeastern Iberian peninsula and who have been historically identified as "Iberian". Although these peoples shared certain common features, they were not homogenous and they diverged widely in some respects.

An alternative theory states that they were part of the original inhabitants of Western Europe and the creators of or heirs to the area's extensive megalithic culture, a theory possibly supported by genetic studies. The Iberians would therefore be similar to the populations subdued by the Celts in the first millennium BC in Ireland, Britain and France.

Genetics does possibly support the theory they were creators (or heirs) to the areas extensive megalithic culture.

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The Iberians are a mixed lot, it's hard to know exactly who they were, let alone what each tribes dna was imo.

Through genetic studies, we do have a good idea as to what genetic lines were in play at various times in Europe and more specifically Iberia. And nothing points to a genetic origin of any line, specifically, that could be considered Portugese. Nor are the known lines in Iberia ancestral to other populations of the Mediterranean. Nor would the lines of the Basques, as mentioned prior, be ancestral to the Trojans.

Genetics does possibly support the theory they were creators (or heirs) to the areas extensive megalithic culture.

And therein lies the problem. Genetics does not commit itself, one way or the other, to the theory.

cormac

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