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The Puzzler

Trojans were Basques?

641 posts in this topic

I think I can give a better Thracian connection to the origins of Zeus (a Hyperborean god), and Leto of Lycia, parents of Apollo, and the Delos sanctuary of Apollo. In Trace there is a location for the ancient people under the names Satrae. Bessi, and Dii. Their god was called Sabazios (Zeus). Their temple was at a site called Perperikon, and ties to Phrygians, too. The Satrae were the swordsman fighting stronghold and the name represents warrior fighting unit, and the blacksmiths, leaving two tribe names as Bessi, and Dii. I would claim a Hyperborean, Buri, or Burjan component. This deity is represented as riding a horse, and the horse treads on a serpent below. This would be the early Zeus, as a Hyperborean in Thrace regions. Relates to Dionysus. An early American (USA) flag exhibits a coiled snake, and reads: "Don't Tread On Me". Used in war efforts as a military flag of sorts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perperikon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satrae

Satrae are the blacksmiths. Gold and silver are two metals I've read.

I want to narrow the information to connect Lycia, and the Carian-Zeus of Anatolia. First I'll attach a web page with an ancient Lycia coin, and note the horse-serpent artwork. Only seven of these coins exist today, as stated therein.

http://mihalkam.ancients.info/giiilycia.html

Now I want to relate to St. George as the same god/s, where from, he was taken to replace this earlier pagan god, as the "dragon slayer".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George_and_the_Dragon

More detail for Lycia (wolf).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Payava

Heradotus claims that the Satrae was among the priestly caste, and Bessi as interpreters of the prophetic utterances given by a priestess in an oracular shrine of Dionysus located on the mountaintop.

I think this answers several of Puzzlers questions on the Thracian peoples, and a ground location on a map, with various dates, and connections such as Phrygia.

I will now deal with the hexagram-auroral connection. The Sami tambourine shows this hexagram, or Hexagon, but I'll redefine as a "hex-pie-shapes, inside a circle". An emerald would be a hexagon inside a hex-six-sided border, or I see as a true hexagon without the "X" cross-marks in the center, as in geometry. A Hexagram could have the "X"-type crossed lines, and a six-sided border, as similar. A hexagram/circle border is proper for the Minoan ring Puzzler attached, and which I claim can be an aurora, and modeled from an emerald, as equivalent. I should note that one definition for the Slavic Svetovid (Triglav roots-trinity-fusion of three gods) is linked to Sabazios, where he is defined as a sun-god, world seer, (svet-world, vid-sight), and also as the "dawning-raising of the sun". He has the Slavic hexagram-circle symbol, and is refered to as "sun" symbol - I'll say by most.

Now the Sami folks in Norway also use this symbol, where I claim it originates, because it represents an aurora, and this is where auroral activities occur, or as Hyperborean - Aurora Borealis.

I'll attach the sami artwork-drum head. Also called a sun-circle.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/S%C3%A1mi_mythology_shaman_drum_Samisk_mytologi_schamantrumma_186.png

The Bessi also has another definition written by Nicetus (4th century), the Bishop of Dacia (Romania), "brought the gospel to those mountain wolves, the Bessi". Note the information about the Bessi and Mt. Sinai. I'll wait on this part, for now.

I'll attach a web site for the Getae as to mean "goat". Herein is a reference to Kassites as Guti (goat). Also Dionysus word, from Zagreaus word, or Zagros Mts people. Another reference as Eurotas, as Polycaon - "Po River wolf peoples". Both Burjan and Hyperboreans have early references to Po River Valley. I haven't decided how to weight these factors fully, but they draw a common picture for some of my data points in my archive bin for my key tribe study, as 'soft' data.

Can these factors be found among the Trojans, or the Basque? Trojans; yes, Basque; I'm still working but have more data to analyze yet. These myths may prove to be helpful for Basque-myth analysis. Not simple.

I'll attach the other Goth-Gatae review.

http://www.tribwatch.com/hermes.htm

I can find various Eastern Persian, Anatolian, and Central Asian parts to these histories encompassed within this Goth history. Some of my earlier data points may show up here, and I can't cover the full extent of this research, nor, confirm the results claimed therein. I can nit-pick some of this though. I'm adding this to broaden the Thracian and Macedonian histories, and possible tribal solutions for locations, and dates. Is Gorgan Iran their earlier history?

I think this relates my tribal part in Thrace, and gives specific archaeological ruins known today. The terms Hyperborean and Zeus, I see as transparent here, at this point in time. Afterall, Burjan tribe is part of Bulgarians, the name of Thrace today, Bulgaria, who trace to Balhara (Bactria), if I have this correct. Should also be the Boreads (ship builders)as well.

One can see how the Caucasus weighs in to this, but I have to narrow the margins further to see where my tribe falls into the scope of histories here, that includes many, many tribes. I can match Amazons in many locations, so they are likely affiliated with my key tribe study, or, as confederated warriors over a long period of time, and symmetrical migration locations, most around the Black Sea, Lemnos Isle, Greece, and early in the Pontic regions.

This will also allow a route from Georgia to Macedonia, as people from the Caucasus. This allows St George definiton for the country name Georgia, which was an earlier al-Burjan, and/or Colchus Empires, and Van Empires of the Pontic.

Note the Amazons in these readings. I can maybe account for them as affiliates, and their coins have wolf headgear on some, like helmets. Amazons likely adopted wolf-tamga along the way, but could be source origin perhaps. I contend the wolf starts in Siberia, as Buryan tribe shamans.

I've learned that Buri is also the name of a son of Genghis Khan. Here the name means "wolf". Genghis has a strange pedigree as he may be a b****** child of a Rus woman, wherein, his father returned to Mongolia after winning a battle with the Rus, and brought their king to Mongolia. He (Genghis) is said to have blond-hair and blue-eyes, and of the Burjan, (the Buri tribe is next to the Rus) so this son's name could in fact be of the Buri-wolf tribe, his mother's side of his parents, out of wedlock to his father as a captive-women of Rus tribe. I have text that states this as a tribe called Burjan (I claim as equivalent, and Boreans). Herein may be the "wolf" part of Genghis Khan's nickname I've read about, but without the details. None-the-less, his roots, and Atilla's in the tribe Borjinin, or Burte Chino (Blue-Wolf) of Mongolian mythology is what I claim as the Buri tribe anyway at Genghis dates. They are part of the Golden Horde confederation, at Genghis dates, and Buryats (Buryan) millenniums prior to this. Many Mongolians are believed to be of Siberian roots, different that the Chinese, but some overlaps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%BCri

See if this cleans up the landscape some. The Minoan Ring contains an elaborate amount of information, which is definable fully, I think. Same shamans in my book. See what you think? Are these peoples one in the same? I feel good on this Thracian part, because I think I'm making progress on my theory and this location has proved difficult on a good day. See if this adds up, or not. Also, can the Vinca Culture (Macedonian earliest locales) encompass these blacksmiths, in Thrace, too? GGG guy.

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My previous attachment above failed for the Sami tambourine and their hex-circle symbol can be found within the wiki page for the Slavic god Svetovid, Ill attach here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svetovid

I should also correct my past statement regarding Hercules dog, and the Tyre purple dye myth. Hurcules can be actually Heracles. as he hails from Tyre. Two different roots, and names, or maybe not. I'm not certain yet. Some historians don't intermix them as equivalent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurcules

I think the wiki pages here show equivalence, but I have yet to review them more.

See what the Sami hex-circle may mean. Sun or Aurora? GGG guy.

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There is another site in Thrace lands where the name Sboryanova shows up in an archaeological site current active. This name translates as "the City of Wolves". I see S-Boryan-ova. Here Bory is equivalent to Buri, and they both mean "wolf or wolves", even in Siberian-Mongolian languages of the east. I'll attach a page on the Huns that allows a Bori to mean wolf. I also need to correct my past state regarding Genghis Khan's (his orignal name to mean "of iron", where Temur means "iron", and tai means "of")son named Buri (wolf) as defined in the previous attachments I placed in the blog. Buri was actually Genghis's grand-son, or the son of his 3rd son, and links to Chagatai, his 2nd son, where this name means "he who is white". Chagan means white. Another word of interest is "chinua" which is Mongolian for "wolf", too.

I'll attach two references for these words in Mongolian translations.

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesEurope/BarbarianHuns.htm

http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/baras-aghur/mongolian.html

Note that Buri and Chagatai are related to Afghanistan, and Hindu-India, where: Taj Mayhal has the Burjan octagon tower, both built by Shah Jahan, and his dynasty is tied through Moghuls to Genghis Khan's clan by way of inter-marriage into this Moghul dynasty. I contend that towers called Burj, or Burjan comes from a Sky God root interpretation. Similar to mountain peaks we also cal Burgs, or Bergs.

I also claim that in Sboryanovo (Thrace-Bulgaria), is yet the tribe I'm tracing through history. I think this wiil aid the answer to Puzzler's original question, that is to say that the Hyperboreans, or Boryan's in Thrace are the same people of the east, and the name used is testimony to this fact. And they are the "blacksmiths" as one of there fundamental occupations, likey, as the folks who created the coins, such as the Lycian coins I previously attached.

I am working on Georgia to obtain a better definition for an Iberian sub-group by tribal name, wherein, I would then connect this to Iberian Spain, and therein, to Basque regions perhaps, too.

In Thrace, the site called Sboryanova, I would claim is of a Boryan, or Buryan tribe, and they are indeed the "City of Wolves" as described in the historical text concerning this archaeology.

http://mgu.bg/geoarchmin/naterials/77Gergova.pdf

http://www.institutarheologie-istoriaarteicj.ro/Articole/eph-VI-04.pdf

http://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/celtic-glass-artifacts/

Glass is of Middle Eastern, Lebanon invention.

I have another Tribewatch page that can provide some information on Biblical wolf tribes and their possible names and locations in this region. A lot of data is presented herein, however, I only need the notions concerning wolves, for our purpose herein. The question would be, can these wolf tribe names be incorporated into my wolf-tribe global model. I think I need more work on this region, however, I think I can assimilated them, whether or not Tribewatch has the correct explanations in their characterizations. This report is quite interesting none-the-less, but I would question some of the speculations incorporated into these translations, and geographic locations.

http://www.tribwatch.com/opis.htm

See if this helps on the Thrace questions, and if Buri=Bori=wolf. I see this as inescapable for fundamental 1st principles, and this is very important to my concept, or anyone else thats cares to venture down this path. So yes, a Buryan/Burjan/Borean/and Burian (my surname of Bohemia) is all of this same "wolf tribe", and of these very regions, at the dates indicated from the archaeology, and yes, they are the blacksmiths, and gate-keepers of the underworld, as I've already stated many times.

I'm working for better clarity on Georgia, and I am making headway, but will need more time to answer some of the questions with good evidence to make a stand for a wolf-tribe in the Cacausus regions. Azerbaijan is yet holding its ground. Be back soon, and yes, I can trace a "SURNAME" orgins roots globally. See if this doesn't up-the-ante on this question regarding tracing surnames. GGG guy.

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I've found a web site called "A New View of the Authurian Legends" by Susan V. Tomory. This has a Magyar linguistics factor concerning Stonehenge type structures. It also gives us this independant analysis of the Avebury henge name, and Silbury Hill name, closeby to Avebury.

http://www.magtudin.org/Arthur%20part%204.htm

I contend that this writeup closely matches the data points I've already made in this blog concerning these same names, and Picts. One should note that the paper ultimately describes these ancestors as Hyperboreans, and Siberians, exactly as I would suggest. However, they also provide some global locations, and affiliated "Magyar" type tribes. I can honestly say that I'm stuck in the Caucasus between Magyars, Georgians, Iberians, Albanians, Serbians, and Croatians. I believe all of these tribal names relate to Caucasus ancestors, but I'm seeking very specific tribal name, and thus Azerbaijan is at issue if Azer and Baijan are discrete to this end. On the previous attachment, the town of Gorgun in Azerbaijan, relative to Gorgan "Land of Wolves" in Iran follows quite well. However, the date time frame is 3-5,000 BC, and Azerbaijan has a salt mine that carries this date, equally so.

Not to speculate too much, I'll point out some items in the attached page that would align with my previous comments, and/or, confirm some aspects of Magyars, and ring stone fabricators, if they are indeed the Magyar-Druids as the paper strongly suggest. I generalize Magyars as Iron Age into Europe, or post Trojan War migrations, but I may be off a bit even if this is a time when many of these very same Magyars flooded into Europe. This is the same issue I have with Hyperborean, or related tribe names I claim to be them.

Watch for this in the paper;

"stones have healing properties" ref India, where they grind up emeralds and eat the dirt.

Druid priest as; "the Druids also who were the Hyperboreans - according to Greek legends", i.e. Apollo.

"the Druid 19-year calendar", or the Year of Meton. Recall the Minoan Axe - tree of life, and Leap Year. This allows the Stonehenge's 56-stones in the circle. Also, Solar-Lunar cycle, and alignments of the structures.

The name "Ko Kor" as "stone circle". Seems to be same as Kokko, the Norse phoenix bird, and town name in Norway. Is root to English word "church".

Transylvania, "eternal fire" and hill of charcoal found on location. Keeper of the light priests.

Druid priest named Mog Ruith - they link to Siberian or Central Asian shamans.

Reference to order of great world religions (see tabulation in their text), per professor Goeffrey Ashe, wherein, they all stem from Hyperborean ancestors.

Magyar holy number "7", and aligns with the Georgian 7-wings sun wheel symbol. I think this is the 7-tribes of Idel, or 7-languages, that later, also became the Biblical 7-churches. Buryan/Borean/Burjan is one of these language groups. I'm not certain of a 7-tribes of Idel analysis yet, and I have weak data for this confederation, that is supposed to be very old, or prior to these other uses for the number "7".

Druids had sacred Oak tree, as in Sea Henge in Norfolk.

Words Avebury and Silbury definitions, close to some we've postulated. I'm undecided on their extrapolation, but can be workable if they are correct. I see the Druid priest part as predominant, so these are the real players at the earliest dates in my opinion.

The idea postulated of the "bore" tamga of "Black-Huns", and the "wolf" tamga of the "White-Huns". This would allow a sub-Hunnic group which I'm tracing by way of the wolf, if I have my house in order. I have difficulty separating sub-Hunnic groups, but this information can be useful. They are Huns none-the-less, so this is a mute point in a global landscape as we are attempting to assimilate.

I would suggest this paper matches a lot of my data and sub groups, even in the Isle of Man, Canary Isles, and the Picts. Belgium plays in as well. The Fir Bolg should conform as well, if you asked me.

See if this is manageable, or believable? GGG guy.

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Hi GGG, I admit I havent been in this thread for a while but will catch up and always looking for clues. I was just reading about the chestnut and came across this:

The fruit is contained in a spiny (very sharp) cupule 5–11 cm in diameter, also called "bur" or "burr".[23] The burrs are often paired or clustered on the branch[18] and contain one to seven nuts according to the different species, varieties and cultivars.[1][2][24][25] Around the time the fruits reach maturity, the burrs turn yellow-brown and split open in 2 or 4 sections. They can remain on the tree longer than they hold the fruit, but more often achieve complete opening and release the fruits only after having fallen on the ground; opening is partly due to soil humidity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chestnut

Remember the bur? I think that's probably what the Burian name is related to. "He who lives among the weeds", burs. But the word goes on to mean possibly burgh, cage and fortress. I'll have a look what you have posted because the wolf thing certainly has merit, just get my head back around it lol.

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The question of the weeds and burs is of Serbia city name from the 1800's (AD), and reference to burian, a generic term for weeds or thistle/briar type scrub brush - of which - cattle won't eat. Or, as undeveloped, and somewhat barren land, most difficult to survive in. Grant money was provided to get people to homestead these types of lands, or sponsored development synergy. This though doesn't tell us exactly where and when this term was first used. I think a Buri type tribe can be connected to Macedonia in general, likely before this description came into being.

The Chestnut tree is an interesting addition to the Tree of Life varieties. I want to analyze the "Ash" tree because the Norse god "Buri" is tied to their Ash Tree of Life. Burs are also file type tools to remove burs in metal fabrication, and, as a blacksmith craft. If I claim smithing, then these two definitions can have the same core tribe, and perhaps, the origins of these types of linguistics word forms as Modern English translations today. Our previous Goji berry plant also fits my original weed story because it stated that this plant was large enough for a Cossack and his horse to hide behind. Important in areas that are vast and barren, such as the steppes, or, regions around the North Black Sea.

There is a newer Hyperborean book out called; "Hyperboreans - Myth and History in Celtic-Hellenic Contacts", from 2005 Routledge, Madison NY. The Author is Timothy Bridgeman. I've haven't acquired this book yet, but want to obtain a copy. I have a web page with sample excerpts from this book I'll attach. I gleaned some data that I think fits within my Hyperborean concepts and model, and maybe can help on the Ash Tree question. I believe that my tribal name can be of several types of trees, Including the Buri palm, the India Banyan tree, Zeus's Oak (Hyperborean Zeus), and the Norse god Buri-Ash Tree of Life (note Burna Buriash II of Babylon) to mention a few, of which, I see as tribal related. Sacred Groves, and psychedelic mushrooms under them, after the fruit drops, also qualifiers for trees in mythical and lifestyle-cultural terms. Many tribal names could be linked into these practices and religions.

http://books.google.com/books?id=x-gHV7JeSaYC&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=hecataeus+of+abdera,+Hyperborean&source=bl&ots=ZOGFcUOEjC&sig=C9Ib2g8y1vonS3UYoc4ay-ZEPjg&hl=en#v=onepage&q=hecataeus%20of%20abdera%2C%20Hyperborean&f=false

This link looks odd, so I hope it works OK.

I want to deal out this Ash-Tree part, and as related to the Hyperboreans I claim to be Borean-Buryan-Burjan, as root source tribal descriptors, from Siberia, in Caucasus Iberia (also called the Bed of Boreas), and both the Nordic-Buri myths as Bor-Boreas, and in the Aegean Sea, and early enough to allow an Iberian-Spain at ~5000 BC, as of the same ethos, and root tribal name, or the equivalent.

I will start as Hyperborean-Zeus, and his mythical Leto wife, and their offspring as Apollo and Artemis. So the question would be, where did the folks live, at what dates, and where did they come from. I will associate the Greecian "Wax Temple, and the Bird Feathers" I believe are associated with their "White Swan" mythologies associated closely with Apollo. I will associate "Bees" into these descriptions because the sound bees make is taken to be the sounds the god/s made when creating the Universe, and where Zeus turned them to their "Golden-Bronze" color, because he was nursed on honey, and goats milk as an infant, hidden in the suggested Crete cave, at Mount Ida. This "buzzing" bee sound is the "Sound of Creation" in this line of thinking. The bees honeycomb also exemplifies a "hexagon" shape, that mimics the emerald we've discussed herein. I also believe the bees trace to Baskortostan, Burzyan (Buryan) province, and their wolf folklore and mythology.

I made a graphical chart to condence these mythical figures, and locational data into an outline I'll attempt to describe around the Aegean. I'll place some of my interpretaions or translations along the way to show this tribal relationships, sometime after ~5000 BC, up to an Iron Age type timeline. I've limited an emerald hexagon symbol to ~3000 BC, and suggested the Norse Buri cam about abut this time as related to Hyperboreans, where; Buri=Bori, and they are of a "Wolf-Tamga - god's messenger" type culture. Any animal can qualify as a tamga type tribal affiliation. We can also use the term "Draco" in our thinking here, as a wolf-headed dragon (serpent, snake, worm), or under-world creatures. This wolf become the gate-keeper of the under-world, as well, for the "Tree of Life" trinity, or. Upper, Middle, and Lower-world gods and goddesses.

As Hyperboreans, we Have Zeus and Leto (Letoon sancuary in Lycia-wolf, Anatolia), and where Zeus is of Caria, next to Lycia, and the Sancuary called Pergammon, ruins today in Anatolia. Zeus and Leto had the (twins) Artemos, and her brother Apollo (Sancuary at Delos Island where he was born. Athenian Greeks consider Apollo as there premier ancestral god, and Boreas as a cousin to Apollo). Apollo's son Aristarus is know for the "Art of Beekeeping". He is also of the Etesian Winds, cooler summer winds off the Black Sea, and equates with Boreas winds, and suggested to live on, or in the Black Sea. Boreas equates to Auroa Borealis, the North Wind, and the Boreads, builders of Jason's Argo ship, pr the Argonauts.

Zeus is connected to Mount Lykaion (wolf mountain) where his sanctuary resides in Greece.

Leto's sister was named Asteria, whom Zeus turned to stone, and where she becomes the mythical floating Island called Delos today. Asteria Island is also called Ortygia (some claim translates as quail), or as also Delos. Ther is the mythical temple of wax and feathers associated to Delos Apollo Sanctuary.

If Delos is tied to Crete (Minoans), and the cave of Mount Ida, then there are some additional translation desriptions. Hills of Ida are called Panacra - where the bees live - and the Melissae Nymphs ar the Bee Maidens that raised Zeus here. They are also called the Dictean Meliae, or the "ASH TREE Nymphs. This follows a Hyperborean Northern mythology Tree of Life, and specific to Ash trees.

On the Isle of Euboea (Boii roots, where Boii tribe translates to Bohemia, or Home of the Boii. Also Lugi-Buri, where Lugi s/b Lugh - the Celtic sun god), there is the Apollo Sanctuary ruins at a city called Carystus (Carian's, on River Styx), and this sancuary is modeled on hexagon architecture resembling bee hives. Mycenaean (Double-Battle-Axe folks) artifacts can be tied to this site.

Apollo gas an additional Sanctuary of Delphi, in Greece, and Zeus's at Dodona on the Adriatic shores. Dodona is a very early Greece and Hyperborean location. The Boio (Athens province) women in De;[hi wrote a Hexameter-Hymn that claims the Hyperboreans founded Delphi. It also relates to the wax-temple and feathers myth. Olen of Lycia (prophet of Apollo) was said to be the first to sing hexameter hymns, and one covers Arge and Opis, the Hyperboreans maidens that brought gifts to Delos, as we've discussed herein.

Delos Island is related to palm trees, because one myth descibes Leto, leaning on, and hugging a palm during the 9-days of labor she endured when Apollo was born here. So the question become, is this the source of the Buri Palm variety. As it turns out, there is essentially one palm tree on Delos today, and its at the Apollo Sanctuary ruins, and sacred-lake part. There was once a dedicated large bronze-palm tree given as a gift, but missing today, as well. I don't think it was of the Buri type palm, and likely of the date-fruit type palm. The Buri palm could be deified as cousin to this Delos palm perhaps. The Buri palm is yet a puzzle to me. Finding one palm on Delos is strange as well.

Boreas's daughter was named Khione (Chione) - one of the nymphs - and is also known as "Lady of the Mountain Gales" and/or "Goddess of Snow". This can be associate to the White-Swan, and white feathers associated with Apollo, because I beleive Apollo's flying chariot was piloted by these swans. He is also tied to bees and the wax-temple/ feathers myths, and examples of the beehive part has been found in artifacts, and inscriptions in these locations. There is also the argument that zeus was raised in a Greecian cave, in lieu of the Cretian cave mythical descriptions.

If we allow a Thracian-Temple of Dionysis, and Sabazios god as origin for Zeus, then we can add in for this territory. The Rhipean Mountains are also called Haemus Mts. Haemus (blood) is where Zeus slayed the Typhon dragon. Also called Saimon - as mountain ridge. Prician, connects Boreans to Ethiopia, which I claim as the Buri peninsula of Eritria, very near to the early emerald mines here. In Thrace we have Sboryanovo as "City of Wolves", also called Duisdava, which I see as Dacians and the draco banner. The Bessi priest from here leads to Mt Sinai chuches, and Georgian temples there today. St George mimic Sabazios as a horse riding dragon-slayer.

Mt Tabor in Sinai is also called Habyrion (I see as Ha Buryan, or, I Berian), and St Helena founded Helenopolis, also called Daburiya (Da Buriya, or Buryan).

It follows the Beirut (Birytis, Berytus) is in Lebanon, and relates Poseidon, and his daughter Beiro, that should link to Phrygians, and Lemnos Island, Kabeiros cult.

I would suggest that this many forms of Bur likely all caouldn't be simply thistles as plants burs. Although, I think these types of Burs may be encompassed into the rest of my Bur data. I think its more important to track the tribe, and the various surnames should comform in the end, including mine. I just give a way to obtain this name in Bohemia, by way of the tribal name, which seriously predates any surname. Surnames are interesting, but weak at early dates, as those expressed here. Symbols from a Coat of Arms would be more useful for personal traces historically. I think a Burian name in Bohemia mimics the Norse Buri god name, and I have data that claims the Buri tribe name is derived from this. They are on Ptlomy's map of Central Europe right close to Bohemia, I contend, before the term "burian weed" was used. However, Serbians as Macedonians can allow this translation at the later dates none-the-less.

I should also my personal yDNA, as R1a1, is described to be in Central Europe at 1500 +/- 350 yrs BC. Thus, this implies my ancestors were in Europe as Iron Age immigrants, to get to me in Bohemia.

Apparantly, this tribe has many other activities, and locations likely not related to me so personally because the tribe can shed off players and any time and location along the way. Ultimately, we all come from the same core cave people, so it seems, so one shouldn't be too amazed if you could decipher an ancient tribes wanderings on the globe. This doesn't imply, as Spartan suggest, one can claim all of this history as their own, only that we all come from these very same great races, somehow. Even if a surname can't be traced what-so-ever. I think one has the best condition, if one can relate a surname to a tribal name. Tribes can be traced, to some degree of certainty, depending how far back in time one attempts to trace. I think my suname is "lucky-by-chance", but is quite difficult to unraval specific details. I haven't decided what my surname actually means just yet. I should say that it seems that the tribe is of both Linear A, and Linear B languages, in spite of the fact, I really olny have the "Slavic" language in the end to get to my surname in Bohemia. My qulifier is that I can obtain a Burian surname, in Bohemia, at my yDNA date, from any direction currently, that is North, South, East, or West. I have a Coat of Arms form Hungary, with the name Burgyan, and it exhibits the swan. Similar to the Ligurian myth bird of N. Italy, and Siberian-Nordic bird mythology as shown in Puzzler's Etruscan pendant picture, previously attached, which exhibits the swastika sun symbols. This seems West Bohemian to me, and my ancestors, and yDNA expresses this condition as highly probable. A Nordic Buri god is equally probable, and R1a distribution is definitely more North, in Europe.

All data should add up in the end, if the approximations are correct. I think my research is more valuable to the public domain as historical data points, which has impacts on many past and present studies, and the ethos of people and cultures involved. DNA suggest we are all from Africa ultimately. All global races "should" comply to this more modern science, equally so. I don't have any issues with DNA currently. I see this as complacent to my estimated timeline thus far. Although, differentiating Siberia and Central Asia at 5-10,000 BC isn't exactly straightforward. I'm finding historical data to fill some of these gaps, but have leads to pan out yet, too.

See if this helps in the Aegean concerning Delos and Crete. I see Hyperboreans as real people, not just a mythical race. Thanks for the chestnut tree tip. Who uses this tree as a Tree of Life? I recall the Scottish thistle folklore or myths, and Coat of Arms symbolism mentioned earlier herein. GGG guy.

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I think I'm getting to the core of wolf as buri, which until I do, I am finding it hard to move on here. Your connections are quite detailed and very interesting, I do read them all.

It's in their coat, their fur - a dog's fur BRISTLES. It raises when it is defensive or aggressive mode.

This is the reason the wolf is called a buri.

Bristle goes through to bur as in the weed, which is a bur/burr, a bristley seed pod, has spikey case (bristley fur).

Gullinbursti - a magical boar means golden bristles.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Not sure if you saw this website: http://www.angelfire.com/realm/vlachs/ I read so many links I forget who has linked them sometimes if they have seen before.

VALCANS

AND VULCANS

In western Romania, and old Vlach name for wolf was "vâlc" and it was related to Czech "vlkov", having the same meaning.

Valcau is name of a river and of several villages from Salaj county. Valcau (today Valeni) village is attested since 1213, when was named " villa Vulchoi". In 1291-94, it is found under the Hungarian name of Wolkou Magyarvalkó. These changes of name are indicating the similarity of the root words: Valc/Vulch/Wolk.

The name of Blachernae, a suburb of Constantinople, which, according to a tenth-century chronicle, was derived from that of a Scythian Duke Blachernos, killed at Constantinople, might, according to Popa-Lisseanu, be connected with the term Blach/Vlach (Blacernoi, descendant or son of Wallach).

Probably, the Vlachs were also called Valkans. From “Valkan”, which is spelled “Balkan” in Cyrillic alphabet, comes the name of the entire area known today as the Balkan Peninsula. Possibly, these Valkans were also called Valk-kyrs ("kir" meaning Sir, in Greek). Let us note that the German word for church, "kirchen" stems from the Greek "kir", the meaning being "the house of the lord". Some of the Valk-kyrs and their women, the Valk-kyries ("kira" meaning Lady, in Greek), moved to the north of Europe, together with the Gothic tribes, where they established the Valk-halla, Old Norse Valhöll, known from the Norse mythology as the hall of the slain warriors.

In 1837 a large number of pieces of very massive gold plate were found at Pietroasa (Petrossa) in Romania; much of this find was unfortunately broken up and melted, but a considerable portion was saved, and is now in the museum at Bucharest. These magnificent objects are all of solid gold, and consist of large dishes, vases, ewers, baskets of open work, and personal ornaments. The most exquisite piece is a patera, 10 in. in diameter, having in the centre is a seated statuette of a woman, holding a cup, while all round, in high relief, are standing figures of various male and female deities.

Vulcanos.GifThe only inscription was found on a ring. Most of it's letters are Etruscan. The translation, made by the German scholar Wilhelm Grimm, was presented to the Science Academy of Berlin in 1856. The inscription was translated as: VULCHANOS O FICET, meaning "Vulchanos made it".

The Dacians used Vulcan as the generic name for blacksmith. Since Dacia had the richest gold and silver mines from Europe, it had also a large number of blacksmiths. Vulcan remained as a place name for mountains and cities, up to today.

The chronicler Dudo of St.Quentin's wrote in Gesta Normannorum about the Dacians, naming them also as Vulcans: "For these Dacians, once ejected from their own lands by means of the reported rite, have savagely landed with duke Anstign where Francia extensively spreads out its tracts. He has attacked a powerful lordship in Gaul; he has unlawfully appropriated the Frankish realm for himself. He has profaned the priesthood; he has tread in the sacristy. With words and deeds he has challenged the king of the Franks who, with his followers, has dolefully remained inside the cities. He rages around the walls of the garrisons as does a wolf around the pens of sheep. He accounts the Franks, withdrawn in fear within their garrisons, of slight value. He pursues them all, as a lion does stags. Whomever he meets, discovered distant from the garrisons, he butchers. It becomes a carnage, as the disconsolate are slaughtered by the spear. The clergy is tormented, punished by a cruel death.

The monastery of Dionysius, Christ's champion, has been reduced to ashes by vanquishing Vulcan." [see Gesta Normannorum, Chapter 2, paragraphs 5 and 6]. The Vulcans were named also Valcans or Valkirs. They are the Valkirs who founded the mythical Valhalla of the Vikings. Their homeland was in the Valkan (Balkan) Peninsula.

Vulcan:

Another reflection of the tradition of the Cretan Velchanos-Zeus would be found in Argolid in the mysteries of Zeus Lykaios, which contemplated anthropophagy and may have inspired the Italic Lupercalia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_(mythology)

Lupercalia was a very ancient, possibly pre-Roman[1] pastoral festival, observed on February 13 through 15 to avert evil spirits and purify the city, releasing health and fertility. Lupercalia subsumed Februa, an earlier-origin spring cleansing ritual held on the same date, which gives the month of February its name.

The name Lupercalia was believed in antiquity to evince some connection with the Ancient Greek festival of the Arcadian Lykaia (from Ancient Greek: λύκοςlukos, "wolf", Latin lupus) and the worship of Lycaean Pan, assumed to be a Greek equivalent to Faunus, as instituted by Evander.[2]

In Roman mythology, Lupercus is a god sometimes identified with the Roman god Faunus, who is the Roman equivalent of the Greek god Pan.[3] Lupercus is the god of shepherds. His festival, celebrated on the anniversary of the founding of his temple on February 15, was called the Lupercalia. His priests wore goatskins. The historian Justin mentions an image of "the Lycaean god, whom the Greeks call Pan and the Romans Lupercus,"[4] nude save for the girdle of goatskin, which stood in the Lupercal, the cave where Romulus and Remus were suckled by a she-wolf. There, on the Ides of February (in February the ides is the 13th), a goat and a dog were sacrificed, and salt mealcakes prepared by the Vestal Virgins were burnt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lupercalia

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The other form of bury staring at me is bury as in bury the dead. To cover, protect.

Etymology 1

Middle English burien, berien, from Old English byrġan, from Proto-Germanic *burgijanan (cf. Old Norse byrgja ‘to close’), from *berganan (“to protect, shelter”) (cf. Old English beorgan, West Frisian bergje ‘to keep’, German bergen ‘to save/rescue something’), from Proto-Indo-European *bʰerĝʰ, *bʰr̥ĝʰ (cf. Albanian mburoj (“I cover, protect”), Lithuanian (Eastern) bir̃ginti ‘to save, spare’, Russian беречь (bereč') ‘to spare’, Ossetian æмбæрзын (æmbærzyn, “to cover”).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bury

The thing is there, bury, to cover is a lot like a seed case (bur) a covering, for a seed. My guess is these words connect. A burial simply protected and covered the body.

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Maybe the wolf covered or concealed/buried.protected things, bones, pups (protected Romulus and Remus) - the name could be very early from that, if not bristle.

Edited by The Puzzler

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The wolf is the gatekeeper of the underworld and exist commonly at the entrances of caves. I see a component of shamanism in this tribe, and with Thracian regions I could go a step further, and use the term for their priest as the "reaper of souls" underworld concept. Reading suggests as those who wore dark robes with hoods, and lurk in the shadows, as in the case of the Kubeiros Cult of Lemnos and Samothrace Islands. They kept god names a secret, only as - "the Great Gods". I think I give the "soul" concept to the Hyperboreans, and likely because of the Northern Lights. Once you have this soul, you have to decide what it means, or what happens to it if it looses this "spark of life", or dies.

If a Siberian Buryan is to relate to mountains as Sky God (Mongolian Burte Chino-Blue Wolf), than the trinity of a Tangranistic "Tree of Life" has a wolf deified with the tree roots, posted at cave entrances, and the mountain is Tangra's - Earth God's home, and the Sky God is the Upper World realm, above the Aether, or commonly the Universal "Creator" God, or to us as Heaven. The wolf tribe tamga, is the Messenger Spirit wolf that the mortal person personifies to, when seeking spiritual assistance for the gods within this trinity. The trinity though is all yet one and the same god, part of the same tree, which has roots, a trunk, and fruit, leaves and branches.

So a Buri can be a wolf, and an underwold gatekeeper symbol, and have an aurora connection, because I attribute the notion of this "soul" to Hyperboreans, and the Northern Lights, to conceptualize the symbolic tree, thus allowing a Sky-God component. The Earth-God-Mountain leads to these other mountain attributes, to include holy-wells, holy - mined materials such as gems and ore, sacred caves. I believe the wolf enters the domain due to the domestication of dogs, which seems to have occurred in Siberia first, because domestic dog DNA leads to Siberian precursor wolves, for the most part, allowing for an exception or two, of domestic breeds, or wild wolves currently known.

Examples of this wolf gatekeeper is Anubis-Egypt, the 2-black dogs-Canary Islands, The Houngs of Heaven-England, Fenrir-Norse-tied to the North Pole (a Hyperborean domain - and Santa Clause), the dog-headed phoenix of the Kassites, to mention a few.

If we took the Kassite name Burna Buriash II, one could think Burna-lands, and King Buriash, thus would mean the lands of King Buriash. If we go the route of Bur as you suggest Puzzler, Then I could redefine this this as; Burna-burn, Buri-bury, ash-ashes, then this would say "burn and bury the ashes", or typify cremation. This is consistent with the tree of life concept as described above, and man being made from the clay-soil-dirt etc. I typify this also with Hyperboreans, and as part of Prometheus. He is both fire, and the one that fashioned man from clay.

The Georgian myth reflects their cave at the top of the mountain, because their mountain happens to give out a puff of smoke, being volcanic, and slightly active, so this leads to fire-underworld. Fair play. I believe Moses at Sinai reflect these very same attributes, as well as most of the Biblical stories that happen on sacred mounts and mountains, which is a lot of them.

Hyperboreans seem to be clever enough people, and these concepts were likely distributed from this ancient core territory of Central Asia and Siberia, and I would say Southern Siberia by about 10,000 BC. They seemed to understand their spiritual fate upon death, so I see this as an easy sell to a typical cave man. It suggest death isn't permanent, and expressed in this Tree of Life symbolic trinity. This is how I have to flex to allow a wolf-tamga, and a tribal name Buri or Bori related, and an "Eternal Blue Sky" as Sky God part, to allow bergs-burgs-mountains, Alps-mountains, and Burj-towers. I believe data reflects these core principals, if one is careful on the translations.

For the ash tree, I have a new revalation. That the Norse Ash tree is in error, and its really a pine tree. Here the data page, go to Ash Tree.

http://www.straighttalkpsychics.com/topics/trees/treelore.htm

Now I just blogged data to show the Ash tree in the Aegean so I could show that this Northern Norse tree, can be tied to the Aegean, and as Hyperboreans, if not Buryan tribe as equivalent. I've always had an issue with a Northern Ash tree, and always thought it should be a pine. Now it appears it may indeed be a pine, which then allows Puzzler's burs, as pine needles, and the thrysus, the pine cone tipped staff, and, as the pine cones shown on Puzzlers Minoan Ring attached previously herein. Thus if true, the pine is then tied to the inscriptions in Lebanon, and various others. I would say its a Siberian Pine, where I believe it possessed their sacred pine oil, and is the gopher wood, and ceder wood, as the tree on the Lebanon flag. So then what about these Ash tree nymphs?

Here's a page on tree nymphs.

http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/Dryades.html

This is one reason I avoid the mythologies, and work to ground-truth locations, if I can make these determinations. For the Norse I see this as Bjarmaland. I believe this links to Burjan, or Land of Burjan (Borean, Buryan... etc). If the Cave in Zebulun at Mount Carmel is called Kebara, it should be linked to the cave-god Kubera of India, then both locations should have cave wolves for gatekeepers, as the similar Tree of Life trinity with a wolf tamga. India's Banyan tree seems adequate by its very name already. However, Kubera, of Hyperborean Kurus went south, where R1a DNA can be found in Dravidian territories, and Sri Lanka. In the core zone there is a Boran ancient tribal people, and there is in the myths, a dog-cave ingredient.

This suggest that in Zebulun, which I see as the India Zebu cow, their cave should exhibit a wolf-dog folklore, or myth to bring these ellements full circle, in Lebanon, too. I don't have this information. Kind of an important ingredient. This is my prediction for this particular cave.

Note that Kubera would have the same dwarf function - as blacksmiths - for Puzzler's Gullenbursti boar, where, it was Brokkr, the Norse Blacksmith - dwarf - that created the boar, anyway. He's a Hyperborean, and related to Thor, Hephaestus, Ptah, and their hammers, and, smithy profession as gods.

I think Palasgians further defines these people in the Aegean, Macedonia, Thrace, Greece...etc. I'm quite comfortable with this, and the Island of Euboea, and the Minyan's (earliest settlements) in Boiotia province in mainland Greece as related. Beria (Veria) in Macedonia. I think the "b" as "v" to be a phoencian component, that allow Vasque to be Basque. I'm suggesting an Iberian people as the same, from Siberia, or Central Asia.

The she-wolf of Romulus and Remus matches the Turkish goddess Asena, one version with a blue-mane, and the idea that the Turks inherited this wolf goddess from Siberian-Mongolians, anyway. This blue is still the Sky-God factor included. Mongolian Burte Chino means Blue Wolf. I can have a Buryan in Central Asian Turkish Altay as their ancetral location, prior to the Anatolian Turkey of today.

This suggest the Buryan tribe, or Buryats of Buryatia still there today, including Shamans Rock at Lake Baikal.

If the Norse Tree is actually a pine conifer, then my life just got simplified in a rather large way.

To expand on the Hyperborean of the most ancient percursor, I found a couple of videos relative to Gene Matlock, and his India studies in Vedic text and sanscrit translations. He did some radio talk shows, so we only have to listen to the question-answer format. One should listen carefully for his Hyperborean, and god Kubera points, and locations, and the time line factors. He agrees with me in the Siberian and central Asian domains, but has his approach to the analysis. I think we match reasonably well in our global models, and these videos speak for themselves. They are in segments as part one, two...etc., and runs about 15 minutes per segment. There is two different shows, one on blue bacground, the other on red-orange. I'll attach the part-one for each, and you tube will give the additional parts to follow these two topics, under the guise of Ice Radio.

I think this may help explain my root source territories better to other bloggers and readers herein, and also carve out the Siberia-Asia-India factors. Note that the Aztec god of the underworld has a wolf head and represents fire, too. Weather or not a prickly Bur, and tree can be tied into this, I don't know yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if it can be.

I think this wolf-gatekeeper may answer some of your questions Puzzler. I think Gene Matlock may help in core thinking concepts, concerning the Eastern part of the analysis. The auroras "wolf's tail" concept is also in order from my perspective, and this Norse "pine" allows for Burs. Key question is the accuracy of the Ash vs. Pine if the Norse cosmology tree. I think pine is tremendously more accommodating for my theory, or my GGG, Grand Global Genome concept, and would suggest Siberian pine.

Like female reindeer with antlers, all deers aren't alike, and all pines aren't alike. Most pines shut-down in the winter and hibernate, bur Siberian pine doesn't, which I've read, where, a warm winter period allows this type of pine tree to awaken, and function as normal. What does this mean? I'm not exactly certain yet. I've read this though. Also, the Persians ship fleet (~2000 vessels) I think was built from this type of pine, where Boreas wind sunk these ships at the time of Xerxes invasions westward to Greece. This is why Greece has a Boreas shrine, still there today.

Recall the Kassites of Babylon had Burias, their wind god. One analysis states Burias=Boreas, as Boreas precursor. Seems straightforward to me.

I've considered the term Balkan as related, but for now i could agree with Spartan and say I don't want to claim everything, even if this seems so obvious, as suggested. Interesting question, but I should be able to avoid this even though the territory can be had by these people. This is one of the reasons I'm pushing my concepts, because these are very real people that history has done a poor job on, for whatever the reasons might be. I want to repair the historical absences for a certain race, or class of people we know as pagan babarians. Thes folks do have a tribal name proper, and shouldn't be reduced to these types of stereotyping into a generic class of barbaric people. Nearly all tribes were barbaric in ancient times. Even the Romans were, although they did change mannerisms, their culture had some very crude elements, such as throwing away babies in the trash. Not exactly saints, the angels which they too, inherited. I neutral on this topic, and not Nationalistic. I attempt to let the history spell out the meanings. Not simple.

Keep in mind I'm attempting to place Iberians in Spain at 5000 BC, and define them by tribal name specifically. Things I think are heading this way slowly. The Minoans approches this time line, and requires a ship, because they live on an island. I feel real good on this Crete aspect right now. I also lean to Zeus's Oak as the particular tree of interest around the Aegean, and as Druid-Celt, as Sea Henge in Norfolk England. It is also a Slavic tree. I think it relates to Lebanon, Poseidon, and ships.

This is my overview, and perhaps a change to a Norse Ash into a Pine Conifer instead. Either case can be had I think, but my concept certainly leans to pine. The Hyperborean Laurel (Olympic crowns) was also replaced by Olive. The laurel tree is elusive. I think this is why laurel branches are on many ancient coins, and coins today. Similar to the wheat looking stalks in the Minoan ring. I think her clothes may exhibit leafs in the fabric as well, because this is a common Greek style with fabrics in ancient periods as this, and, Minoans were in Greece relative to Zeus.

Thanks for the bur information Puzzler, and I agree that it make perfect sense, and i think this could be assimilated within their culture/s, but requires some ground truth locations and time period to fully reconcile the concept. I've encountered the Bur quite a bit, but sits second base right now due to what I see as some fundamental locations I'm trying to bring up proofs for.

See if this helps some, and the Matlock videos may help because he's pretty well informed on some of his concepts, which should overlap mine. I'm yet thinking on the bur ideas, and bur tools, where I think this may be accomodated. Your thinking though is indeed helpful on this topic, and overlooked a bit by me, as to the gravity that you've placed on this simple notion. Funny how that works, aye.

These tiny details matter, and all should add up. I hope I relay my concept well enough so we get the fundamentals aligned proper. I always have to resort to my basic time line and the few factors I've isolated, as a check to stay on track. I suppose that a Norse pine may also be attractive to others, if true. I have to think seriously on this, as well.

I'll be back soon, thanks, GGG guy.

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OK, rethinking a bit - wolf in Greek is LYC sound - then it goes to LUP sound in Latin, so the probable more original version is Lyk/Lyc

Old Persian varka/lyka

I'm wondering of there's a connection to leuc/light - moon - dog of the light(moon). Also many wolves are white variety, in the North.

PIE *leuk- "light, brightness" (cf. Skt. rocate "shines;" Arm. lois "light," lusin "moon;" Gk. leukos "bright, shining, white;") Could be the light, fire connection.

wolf-gatekeeper, I will look more into it. Lucifer from root, shining.

Sirius the dog star comes before Orion in the sky, signalling flooding of the Nile, Summer, hot sun. Almost like something astronomical, like the dog star is Cerberus and it's signalling the arrival of the heat. Orion might even be Hades, also Osiris.

The hieroglyph for Sothis (Sirius) features a star and a triangle. Sothis was identified with the great goddess Isis, who formed a part of a triad with her husband Osiris and their son Horus, while the 70-day period symbolised the passing of Isis and Osiris through the duat (Egyptian underworld)

Sirius was assocaited with Isis, who bought fertility (Isis) Osiris might be Orion, after they had spent 70 days in the UNDERWORLD, so that might be the connection, the dog who guarded the underworld was the Sirius star who heralded the arrival of the Underworld (duat), I might look into that a bit more. The triangle if connected to more ancient pyramid themes may be the Universe in the heiroglyph, meaning the star of the Universe.

The pine conifer is good, I did alot on it once, the Christmas tree, Dionysus thyrsus, they catch fire easy. Pins and pines, needle like, cause pain.

Whats interesting is that long ago they were known as fir trees.

The modern English name pine derives from Latin pinus by way of French pin; similar names are used in other Romance languages. In the past (pre-19th century) they were often known as fir, from Old Norse fyrre, by way of Middle English firre. The Old Norse name is still used for pines in some modern north European languages, in Danish, fyr, in Norwegian fura/fure/furu, Swedish, fura/furu, and Föhre in German, but in modern English, fir is now restricted to Fir (Abies) and Douglas-fir (Pseudotsuga).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine

Fyrre, firre variations. Fire?

Many species of pine need fire to regenerate, like Australian Eucalypts do.

The tree of life. New life generates at the old solstice, the sun's return, the end of short days.

In 2004, Pope John Paul called the Christmas tree a symbol of Christ. This very ancient custom, he said, exalts the value of life, as in winter what is evergreen becomes a sign of undying life, and it reminds Christians of the "tree of life" of Genesis 2:9, an image of Christ, the supreme gift of God to humanity.[60] In the previous year he said: "Beside the crib, the Christmas tree, with its twinkling lights, reminds us that with the birth of Jesus the tree of life has blossomed anew in the desert of humanity. The crib and the tree: precious symbols, which hand down in time the true meaning of Christmas.

http://en.wikipedia..../Christmas_tree

Edited by The Puzzler

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Based on Puzzler's Egyptian information on Egyptian gods, and the dog-star Sirius, I believe we can tie this to the previous concept of the auroal "wolf's tail" as the early dawn aurora of the East, the direction where the sun actually arises every day, for everyone Earth. I should point out that on the (red version) Gene Matlock video, in part-two about 3/4 of the way into it, he describes the name Belize (Central America) as to mean; "God Shiva facing the East of Dawn". He left out the wolf tail. He then states that Cancun nearby is also the name of the West Coast of India. I can't say I agree or not, but this a remnant form of the aurora I referenced in this wolf's tail write up, which I tend to agree with, as an Eastern and Central Asian concept in origin. Wiki recognizes a Belize in the African Congo, and due to the slave trade, a word like Belize could also be in Central America as well. Did the Congo have this same Eastern auroral perspective?

I want to jump to the Egyptian theme, and dogs and wolves as gods and deities, and allow this wolf's tail concept as I described; being the dusk-dawn pillars, and within the triad of of gods Puzzler mentioned.

First Khepri.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khepri

Sun God, and scarab beetle. This beetle rolls a dung ball across the ground which Egyptians perceive as forces that move the sun across the sky. Kheper in Egyptain means develope, or, come into being. There is no cult of Khepri. Is part of triad; Khepri-Ra-Atum, where each represents morning sun, midday sun, and evening sun respectively. Atum as evening is described as - finisher of the world - from tem - as complete, - or, as finisher.

Next Atum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atum

To pick out a few points; Atum as the finisher of the world, which returns to the watery chaos at the end of the creative cycle... all things being made from his flesh, or alternatively being his Ka.

This I believe is spirit-soul as in Kabeiros cult name which I define as "spirit of Beiros", or as Ka -Turkish dog-wolf. There is a Macedonian Burjan translation as "the wolf's soul". Burjan tribe also relates to Lemnos Island. Egypt has a 3-tier soul pantheon.

Atum's other definition stated as; god of pre-existance, and post-existance. This is claimed to represent the BINARY solar cycle where Khepri and Atum is the equivalent of sunrise and sunset, or dusk and dawn, and reflects the entire solar cycle. This matches the wolf's tail rendering as I've stated, where the aurora represents these Two-Pillars (one in the East, and one in the West) according to Amun's headress (Egypt's aurora god), in the Egyptian heiroglyphics, and character representations they used for his auroral type crown. Atums cult was in Heliopolis (recall the phoenix-bird ashes deposited in the temple of Helios-sun).

To deal with the wolf-dog we can go to the Egyptian dogs cemetery called Cynopolis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynopolis

This is the "Home of Anubis", a dog-headed gatekeeper of the underworld. Also called "City of the Dog". Cemetery near Hamatha, on the Nile - which must certainly be on the West side, or burial side of the Nile where the sun sets into the underworld. Remember, their Earth isn't round, but flat.

The 2nd Cynopolis Inferior of "cynum" is located in Busirite Nome. This is at the Nile Delta in modern day Meniet ebn Kasib. I believe the Name Busirite has several cemetery locations along the Nile, and I'm not certain of the connections between them.

Anubis is the son of Nephthys-his mother, and Osiris-his father. Or, as son of Nephthys and Set, where Set is Osiris's brother and described as the god of the desert and darkness. Seems appropriate for a wolf-god undertaker, if your in Egypt, and burials are to the West.

I think Egypt's analysis plays good in our discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garmr

This attachment allow the Norse wolf-dog gatekeeper of the underworld, he's called Gamer. Typified as "blood-stained watch-dog that gaurds Hel's gate". The Scandinavian Rujanes, and/or Rugen Island (N. Germany relates to the color "red", and Puzzler's earlier discriptive word as "rudy". Rugen Island is thought to be also the folkloric "disappearing Island of Buyan". Rujanes may be Burjans. Just an afterthought. Rugen island is a Slavic Island of old with Slavic artifacts. Could be in the Burgundian (Burjan) domain, and pooled with Bornholm Island of the Baltic Sea.

I think this should elevate our thinking on the dog-gatekeeper part. If so, are they they tribe I'm claiming? This whole Egyptain thing seems managable to me, at least from my wolf-tribe approach. These are the fundamental aspects of my tribe and theory. I'll call this first principles. I always have to fit to these few basic factors, for all cases, and I think they are panning out. Keep in mind, I haven't analyzed Egypt to any degree, so to say this is predicted is safe play from my perspective. I do have very-high confidence in my theory as GGG concept, and this wolf-tribe ingredient. Very fundamental, as is the caves, mountains, towers, and the sky-god factors. I think the aurora is fundamental to the concept as spirit-soul, gas-vapor-ghost, and night-light. The real question is; can I trust these ancestors as cave-men to define my personal soul-spirit in a satisfactory way, and still applicable with today's modern sciences, and DNA? I don't have an answer for this, but it seems so naive, even though it all is a derivative as; "of the natural elements that Earth possesses, being a circumstance of this Earthly planet, as perceived by cave-men". I do have an issue with this, and I think its universal all around the globe. Everyone has this reality to consider.

In light of this, I think I am tracking the tribe as proper, and in order, and I think it can be summed over a very long time line. I'm attempting to connect to Gene Matlock to see what might occur if we interlaced our two sets of data. He hasn't responded yet, though.

Thanks for the overall Egypt appraisal Puzzler. I think this is correct as a 1st order approximation thus far. Isn't the gatekeeper dog also at hand? GGG guy.

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I want to extend dog cemeteries into Canaan, and Lebanon. There is a dog bread called a Canaan type dog. I'll attach a link for this breed, and note it states they are in various colors, however the article here shows them as very white versions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan_Dog

This gives us some date lines for dogs, and the cemetary in Ashkelon of 700 dogs. The name Ashkelon is suspect as related to the word Ash.

I'll jump to Samson's cave in the "Rock of Etam", as Sidonian Caves, by Hebron, and Beit Guvrin. I'll attach a page on this location and Samson. There is an inscription in the cave of the dog Cerberus in Greek, and of Greek myth. Apollophanes is a Sidonian leader and the cave is believed to be his families tomb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson

http://www.jewishmag.com/35mag/betguvrin/betguvrin.htm

Note also in Samson's story, many attempts were made to bind him, where he continuously broke these restraints, as a giant. He was finally defeated when his hair was cut, the supposed source of his strength. Note this is the same saga that matches the Norse giant-wolf, Fenrir, chained to the North Pole. He also broke the numerous attempts to bind him with restraints, until, magic restraints were used. My opinion is that this connects these peoples and locations together. And, dogs are the underworld gatekeepers, or as guardian-dogs. Same as in Gordion (I suggest as Guardian)city Anatolia, with King Midas's tomb location by Troy, as we've previously discussed herein.

Also note that the Siberians in some cases treated dogs with "human hood", and treated them in high regards, or as people. I claim they originate as a Siberian shaman gate-keeper status, ultimately.

The attachments can allow dating of dogs globally, and domestic versions are plenty old enough to get to Sumeria before 3,000 BC. I could make the claim they are likely related to the wolf precession on Puzzler's Minoan ring attachment. Who are these people? They have wolf heads, and wear pine cone garments. This could be the tribe I'm seeking, their early language as Linear A, and as blacksmiths. They likely mads this ring as well. Can this argument hold, or do I need more layers of proof yet?

I think we can also align to Ugarit and their names of brothers Shalim - god of dark, and Shahar - god of dawn. Very similar definitions for dusk and dawn, in my opinion. Here's a link. Ugarit connects to Caucasus, Sumeria/Babylon, and Zebulon. I see this as the migration corridor, then as Carians, or the city Kar around Armenia/Iberia Caucasus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalim

There is also the morning star Phosphorus related to Venus, which is actually the brightest object in the sky, except for the moon. Phosphors glow the same color as auroras, predominately green.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eosphoros

The Hephaestus would connect to my key tribe, on Lemnos Isle as Burjan, and also as blacksmiths.

In the Caucasus, there is the tribe name as Boraetae, which I think is likely as Boreatea, or, Boreatae. I'll attach a page on the Nart Legends of this area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nart_saga

From this we have the definition that states that the Ossetian versions of these myths depict the Nartic tribe as composed of three clans. Being; 1) the brave Aexsaertaegkatae (most prominent group), 2) the rich Boraetae (s/b as Boreatea -I think), and 3) the wise Alaegatae. Thus I have a Boreas type name of a tribe in the Caucasus-Georgia identified, by tribal name.

See how these additional factors sum into the current analysis. And, are dogs the underworld gatekeepers universally throughout most cultures as we've expressed. American Indians can readily have these dogs too, as the domestic dogs have old enough dates to satisfy their migration time line/s. I limit this at ~17,000 BC, even though evidence exist which could, in theory, be even older. American Indians and dog are very fundamental for this date appropriation. This is part of the reason I'm pursuing this research. I estimate that domestic dogs went global, about this time, in all directions, and from a Siberian origin. The Caucasus is also referred to as the "Home of Boreas" as well. I think I can make the case and show merit for this expression. More needs to be done yet, though.

I'll be back soon, but felt I needed to add this to allow credence for my dog concept, and the regional activities associated with Egypt. The word ash also has some hidden overtones, but I think this will surface more with the dog gatekeeper aspects of the underworld. The two should be intimately tied together, in my opinion. See what you think - GGG guy.

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I've been looking at the Basque blacksmith folklore from there mythical character called Basajuan. He is a hairy giant of the bigfoot variety. The Basque translation is "Lord (Juan) of the Woods (woods, or Wilderness)". He is associated with caves, and instructs mankind in the working of wrought iron, or as a blacksmith. I'll attach a "Dictionary of Gods, Goddesses, Devils, and Demons" and included therein is both this Basque deity, and another of the Caucasus Ossetians called "Barastir" which translates as "ruler of the world of the dead". The Basque caves are called Muskia and Mailux, and Argonne valleys have the mythical Basajuan. Here's the link'

http://publishing.yudu.com/Library/Ax6km/DictionaryofGodsGodd/resources/39.htm

I'll attach a second a second web page called "Basque Legends IV - Basa Juan, Basa Andre, and Laminak" as it relates to Cornish-Welsh fairies. Note that they reference "Builder of Bridges", a question which I brought up earlier on the two Basque cities and the etymology on the names, related to bridges.

Also note the idea that the Basque sometimes called their mythical characters as "Gaillen". This is same as the French Guillen, where they claim the name William relates. I would contend this is the same character as Puzzler's Norse "Gullenbursti" (a bore), and, as related to the "Bur" definition we've been discussing. This would directly relate these people of and in itself. If we were to say iron-smiths, than this would follow both the Trojan War dates, and the Iron Age dates, or, roughly 1200 BC. Both are related to the blacksmiths.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/basque/bl/bl19.htm

I want to jump ship and address the definition of Buri and Bouri, as given in translations on the Ptolemy maps as the Lugi-Buri, or Lugi-Bouri, which I also have other additional claims, including a French Bouri, as in Bourges. I would claim this name is of Borean-Buryan-Burjan tribe roots, as blacksmiths, and a wolf type tamga. In Greece, in ancient Achaea, there is a city which was called Boura (additional translations as Bura and Bira), and is part of the Achaean League. The fountain there was called Sybaris. The river was called Buraicus. An oraclular cavern was called Buraicus, supposedly surnamed by Heracles, as they state. Earthquakes destroyed this city and parts are underwater, which I think, only recently was given funds and experts to do an archaeological study.

This is one of my locations in, or around Greece, of which I believe is directly related to Lemnos Isle Burjans (an Arabic spelling of this tribal name I have text for, at this location currently). Here's a link for the location.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boura_(Achaea)

http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/B/Buraicus.html

This would be my personal tribal oracle location - in theory - directly related to my Bohemian surname as Burian (Burjan, Buryan, and Borean, in addition to Lugi-Buri, or Lugi-Bouri of Ptolemy's map).

Amber is claimed to be "the gold of Boreas". Dionysos married Ariodne, later raised her bridal-crown to the skies as the Aurora Borealis. Both of these factors allow a Borean connection to auroras, and the sun-stone amber.

There is also the wolf - that howls at the moon, and also buries bones. I see these factors coming into play, and a wolf-moon deity could be expected, somehow (???). I can derive the wolf-underworld, but I think this should tie to the upper world, and the aurora seems to be the most tenable, thus far. A Boreas amber stone-sun may be part of this assimilation, as a daytime-sun god upper world. Thus, a zodiacal alignment to the heavens.

On Lemnos Island are the ruins claimed to be the oldest democracy chambers for council called a "Bouleuterion". The one on Lemnos dates between 3,000-2100 BC. These types of structures exhibit "tiered-seating", and several are found around Greece, and the Aegean, and western coastline of Turkey (Anatolia). This then allows a date on Lemnos at ~3,000 BC, the date limit I set based on the emeralds of Africa (hexagons-auroral symbol), as related to the time of the Norse myths, likely written by these same players, if derived from African emerald trade with Sumerian descendants, and as Carians.

Now I've come to realize that the Chechen of the Caucasus are definately a wolf-tribe people because the wolf is on their current and newly revised flag, in recognition of their own 9-clans, represented with 9-pointed stars, and 9-stars in number on their flag. Here is a link for this.

http://www.waynakh.com/eng/chechnya/flag-emblem-and-anthem/

In the Georgian myths, they use the 9-winged sun-wheel-spiral looking symbol, too. Could be the Hindu and Norse 9-worlds as well. India's god Kubera, and, perhaps the symbolic stones in the bag he carried.

To get deeper into the Norse wolf, I'll add an additional web link.

http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/gods2.html

In this link, the definition for ironwood - forest NE of Midgard (remember dogs are guard-dogs), and claimed to be inhabited by witches and trolls. Here, Jotvn (female giantess) gave birth to many giant sons - "all of them wolves".

Under their definitions for Loki: Giant blood brother of Odin. Also originally as the "god of fire", and had red-hair. Loki-fire is related to Glut-glow, Eisa-embers, and Einmyria-ashes. This mimics all the factors we are discussing in nutshell.

Note also Byrnhild, or Brynhildr. A female "Byrnie of Battle", and where Byrnie-Mail Coat, or "mail-coat of armor for battle". This is defined as Valkyrie, with a "SWAN" disguise. Note Apollo's swans' which is a Hyperborean deity. Should be the same blacksmiths that actually made the armor, if I'm correct.

There is the claim that the Aesir gods (under Loki attachment) erected large standing stones, set on end, of the natural variety, bored holes through them, then tied Loki, and/or Fenrir (the giant wolf) to them, by way of these holes. This then relates directly standing stones to wolves, and/or wolf tribe people.

Doesn't this suggest that the Basque have these same types of mythical blacksmith ancestors? I see this as the most fundamental aspects for Buri related tribe/s, so the data should exhibit reasonable compliance, as I suggest, if my solution/s have merit. See if these additional aspects and factors begins to bring together some of the outstanding questions. I have more yet, but this is already quite a bit to think about, so I think I'll stay focused to this part of the wolf-underworld concept. See if this helps, GGG guy.

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I want to correct an error in my statement above. The Georgian sun symbol actually had the 7-wings in lieu of the 9-stars related to the Chechen sub-tribal groups. I believe the Georgian symbol my reflect the same tribal relationship, but at a later date when the Georgian country came to be. The seven I relate as a possible 7-tribes of Idel (Itil - around the southern Volga River), or a later, 7-churches. In all cases I think this would also represent tribes with different languages. The term tribal confederation may serve this analysis. Later to become a "kingdom", such as Georgia, and Van kingdoms of Lake Van in these earlier locations. Akin to the Chaldean - Sumerian kingdom territorially, if I have this sorted correctly.

Sorry about that, GGG guy.

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Hi GGG, you have done so much work. The scope of your followings is beyond me to comment much on but am glad you are finding some interesting lines, keep it up, it's great reading at any rate. One thing I will comment on is this part:

The attachments can allow dating of dogs globally, and domestic versions are plenty old enough to get to Sumeria before 3,000 BC. I could make the claim they are likely related to the wolf precession on Puzzler's Minoan ring attachment. Who are these people? They have wolf heads, and wear pine cone garments. This could be the tribe I'm seeking, their early language as Linear A, and as blacksmiths. They likely mads this ring as well. Can this argument hold, or do I need more layers of proof yet?

I find these wolf headed people intriguing myself. With pine cones. A connection to Linear A might be thru the Tartaria tablets in Romania where I see a dominant wolf people, as ancient Thracians. Pine cones too are often in things I see in that area. Thrysus is a similar word, Thracians could be named so because their land is a land of the pine cones, Thrace/Thrys.

The tree of life and up on top the Pole Star, which is the star on our Christmas trees...

The pine conifer is good, I did alot on it once, the Christmas tree, Dionysus thyrsus, they catch fire easy. Pins and pines, needle like, cause pain.

Whats interesting is that long ago they were known as fir trees.

The modern English name pine derives from Latin pinus by way of French pin; similar names are used in other Romance languages. In the past (pre-19th century) they were often known as fir, from Old Norse fyrre, by way of Middle English firre. The Old Norse name is still used for pines in some modern north European languages, in Danish, fyr, in Norwegian fura/fure/furu, Swedish, fura/furu, and Föhre in German, but in modern English, fir is now restricted to Fir (Abies) and Douglas-fir (Pseudotsuga).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine

Fyrre, firre variations. Fire?

Many species of pine need fire to regenerate, like Australian Eucalypts do.

The tree of life. New life generates at the old solstice, the sun's return, the end of short days.

In 2004, Pope John Paul called the Christmas tree a symbol of Christ. This very ancient custom, he said, exalts the value of life, as in winter what is evergreen becomes a sign of undying life, and it reminds Christians of the "tree of life" of Genesis 2:9, an image of Christ, the supreme gift of God to humanity.[60] In the previous year he said: "Beside the crib, the Christmas tree, with its twinkling lights, reminds us that with the birth of Jesus the tree of life has blossomed anew in the desert of humanity. The crib and the tree: precious symbols, which hand down in time the true meaning of Christmas.

http://en.wikipedia..../Christmas_tree

Etymology

From Middle English fier, from Old English fȳr (“fire”), from West Germanic *fuïr, a regularised form of Proto-Germanic *fōr (“fire”) (compare East Frisian fjuur, West Frisian fjoer, Dutch vuur, Low German Für, German Feuer, Danish fyr), from Proto-Indo-European *péh₂ur (compare Hittite (paḫḫur), Umbrian pir, Tocharian A/B por/puwar, Czech pȳř (“hot ashes”), Ancient Greek πῦρ (pŷr, “fire”), Armenian հուր (hur, “fire”)). This was an inanimate noun whose animate counterpart was Proto-Indo-European *Hn̥gʷnis.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fire

Danish has fyr for fire and also fyr for fir. But I think the Christmas tree is actually a source of renewal, being evergreen, which is what the pagan meaning possibly is about - it never loses all it's leaves like deciduous trees, it renews itself constantly, actually, just like the snake, which is a classic renewal symbol, as it sheds its skin and looks new again. It could be a tree of life because of it's renewal properties imo.

Google Serer religion and see the info about Sirius as their main star - a West African people. I think thier Pangool and Fangool ( ancient ancestors/sacred serpent) are Hermes, his wand is the receptor to get messages from Gods, the Cretan Snake Goddess is doing the same thing imo, shes holding the snakes as receptors, right - get the concept? This snake talks, ie; serpent in tree in Eden. So, it offered me alot, I started a topic, no ones interested, I've only done 2 posts, I dont care, read it if you like, Snake Cult of Africa into Greece and see if it helps your own ideas.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Colchis - Helios Sun god. Georgians - Iberians. Proto-Kartvelians.

Some European historians of the 19th century (for example, Wilhelm von Humboldt and Paul Kretschmer) as well as Georgian scholars (R. Gordeziani, S. Kaukhchishvili and Z. Gamsakhurdia) came to the conclusion that Proto-Kartvelians might be related linguistically and culturally to the indigenous (pre-Indo-European) peoples of ancient Europe including the Etruscans, Pelasgians and Proto-Basques.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_people

This might be why I'm seeing the language connections on the topic, were Basques Trojans, based on mainly the similarities in word meanings from both areas.

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Studies of human genetics suggest that Georgian Y-DNA typically belongs to Haplogroup J2, also found in Turkey, Greece and Italy, as well as Haplogroup G

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_people

You can a really dark spot right on Colchis/Caucasus of G in next article:

In human genetics, Haplogroup G (M201) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup. It is a branch of Haplogroup F (M89). Haplogroup G has an overall low frequency in most populations but is widely distributed within many ethnic groups of the Old World in Europe (especially in alpine regions), Caucasus, South Asia, western and central Asia, and northern Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA)

It also says North Africa but I'll move onto Spain.

Haplogroup G2a(SNP P15+) has been identified in neolithic human remains in Europe dating between 5000-3000BC. Furthermore, the majority of all the male skeletons from the European Neolithic period have so far yielded Y-DNA belonging to this haplogroup. The oldest skeletons confirmed by ancient DNA testing as carrying haplogroup G2a were five found in the Avellaner cave burial site for farmers in northeastern Spain and were dated by radiocarbon dating to about 7000 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA)

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Studies of human genetics suggest that Georgian Y-DNA typically belongs to Haplogroup J2, also found in Turkey, Greece and Italy, as well as Haplogroup G

http://en.wikipedia....Georgian_people

You can a really dark spot right on Colchis/Caucasus of G in next article:

In human genetics, Haplogroup G (M201) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup. It is a branch of Haplogroup F (M89). Haplogroup G has an overall low frequency in most populations but is widely distributed within many ethnic groups of the Old World in Europe (especially in alpine regions), Caucasus, South Asia, western and central Asia, and northern Africa.

http://en.wikipedia....ogroup_G_(Y-DNA)

It also says North Africa but I'll move onto Spain.

Haplogroup G2a(SNP P15+) has been identified in neolithic human remains in Europe dating between 5000-3000BC. Furthermore, the majority of all the male skeletons from the European Neolithic period have so far yielded Y-DNA belonging to this haplogroup. The oldest skeletons confirmed by ancient DNA testing as carrying haplogroup G2a were five found in the Avellaner cave burial site for farmers in northeastern Spain and were dated by radiocarbon dating to about 7000 years ago

http://en.wikipedia....ogroup_G_(Y-DNA)

This would appear to be incorrect.

http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Data/European_genes_table_by_location.htm

cormac

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This would appear to be incorrect.

http://realhistoryww...by_location.htm

cormac

OK, I'll check it out.

In the Neolithic column, not Copper Age nor the first set of columns, I see: F, G2a3 and F - F being an ancestor of G (as far as I know).

I see what you mean, there is nothing in the columns for the Spain mention..? Hmm. Maybe Wiki meant Germany, joking, will see what I can pull up for Spain, you know of any G in Spain then?

Edited by The Puzzler

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So you think this is wrong?

The impact of the Neolithic dispersal on the western European populations is subject to continuing debate. To trace and date genetic lineages potentially brought during this transition and so understand the origin of the gene pool of current populations, we studied DNA extracted from human remains excavated in a Spanish funeral cave dating from the beginning of the fifth millennium B.C. Thanks to a “multimarkers” approach based on the analysis of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA (autosomes and Y-chromosome), we obtained information on the early Neolithic funeral practices and on the biogeographical origin of the inhumed individuals.

No close kinship was detected. Maternal haplogroups found are consistent with pre-Neolithic settlement, whereas the Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b. These results are highly consistent with those previously found in Neolithic individuals from French Late Neolithic individuals, indicating a surprising temporal genetic homogeneity in these groups. The high frequency of G2a in Neolithic samples in western Europe could suggest, furthermore, that the role of men during Neolithic dispersal could be greater than currently estimated.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3215063/

Maybe they have not put it on the charts you linked me to.

Edited by The Puzzler

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OK, I'll check it out.

In the Neolithic column, not Copper Age nor the first set of columns, I see: F, G2a3 and F - F being an ancestor of G (as far as I know).

I see what you mean, there is nothing in the columns for the Spain mention..? Hmm. Maybe Wiki meant Germany, joking, will see what I can pull up for Spain, you know of any G in Spain then?

Not offhand I don't. And with the parent group G and subgroup G2a1a originating in the Caucasus area c.30,000 BP and 3000 BP respectively I wouldn't expect any significant showing of G2 in Spain even if some humans of that group migrated there.

cormac

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So you think this is wrong?

The impact of the Neolithic dispersal on the western European populations is subject to continuing debate. To trace and date genetic lineages potentially brought during this transition and so understand the origin of the gene pool of current populations, we studied DNA extracted from human remains excavated in a Spanish funeral cave dating from the beginning of the fifth millennium B.C. Thanks to a “multimarkers” approach based on the analysis of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA (autosomes and Y-chromosome), we obtained information on the early Neolithic funeral practices and on the biogeographical origin of the inhumed individuals.

No close kinship was detected. Maternal haplogroups found are consistent with pre-Neolithic settlement, whereas the Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b. These results are highly consistent with those previously found in Neolithic individuals from French Late Neolithic individuals, indicating a surprising temporal genetic homogeneity in these groups. The high frequency of G2a in Neolithic samples in western Europe could suggest, furthermore, that the role of men during Neolithic dispersal could be greater than currently estimated.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3215063/

Maybe they have not put it on the charts you linked me to.

No this is not wrong, but remember I've warned you many, MANY times about using Wikipedia as a good source for genetics information. This part from your previous post should be trashed IMO:

Furthermore, the majority of all the male skeletons from the European Neolithic period have so far yielded Y-DNA belonging to this haplogroup.

As you can see for yourself, this is NOT true.

As to G2a and E1b1b1a1b, it's not unexpected that we'd find some hint of their being in Spain since alot of migration was happening from c.7000 BP with the influx of peoples through Anatolia as well as the Indo-European language spread.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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I think their is evidence for Neolithic G2a in Spain. It might be from Caucasus to Spain, which is contrary to my idea, but the connection is there and may give me more understanding why I'm seeing the word connections etc.

G2a is common in modern populations of Caucasus (10) but is quite rare in current western European populations. It represents only approximately 4% of the haplogroups found in the Spanish population (22). It seems nevertheless much more common in Neolithic samples because it was previously found in ancient Neolithic samples from the linear pottery culture in Germany, as well as in late Neolithic French samples (2, 6). Thus, it represents one of the main Y-haplogroups found in Neolithic individuals. Of course, there are still too few data to confirm the overrepresentation of the G2a haplogroup among western Neolithic populations, but this G2a in early Spanish Neolithic samples is strong evidence of a link previously suggested between Neolithic migration and G2a dispersion in Europe (6). Additional G2a haplotypes will, however, be needed to determine whether the G2a found in the male individual associated with dispersal of Neolithic in central Europe and those linked with the Mediterranean route shared a same Neolithic Middle Eastern origin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3215063/

Yeah on Wiki, should have checked but the G2a seems right to me on checking - the majority in the Neolithic might be G2a, with F and E1b.etc coming in next.

Edited by The Puzzler

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