The Puzzler Posted June 1, 2015 Author #626 Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) An example of this might be that *arg has been erroneously given a PIE background. The Basque word month is hil, as shown in Achilles name, hil means 'die'. month is die, that's right, what dies each month? The moon of course. The word moon is ilargi - that translates as far as I can tell, to hil+argi = dying light since argi in Basque means light - the light of the moon dies in a cycle each month - hence the word moon indicates a dying light and month continues this with a term that means death. That in itself is interesting to note, that if we go with argi being IE, it means the Basque word for moon should not exist. It's not entered through Latin or anything, no-one else indicates the name of the moon in such a way. The term is most common throughout the world in the names for silver - a commodity of Spain. Briton archunt for example, Latin argent and the name of a Tartessian King, that might appear also in Greek and Sanskrit but to me, the word would easily be transferred throughout a known trade route from one end of the world to the other, with that word coming out of a Vasconic substrate and silver bearing culture. By the light of the silvery moon Edited June 1, 2015 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 9, 2015 Author #627 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) How amazing. Yesterday (Sept 8, 2015) there was a news release. http://www.sci-news....mers-03216.html http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/09/02/1509851112 It states that Basques are now to be considered as the Neolithic farmers that arrived in Europe, not that surprising but that they presumably bought their language with them! How convenient for my "theory". I knew it. This language is interspersed into many other languages, not the other way around. You will find it in Neolithic agricultural areas from Anatolia to Spain. Edited September 9, 2015 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 9, 2015 Author #628 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) The part about bringing their language with them is in the second file I linked, which you can then access other information from, such as the haplogroup distribution. I'm sure no one will find it as exciting as me, no matter... I might start a new thread on it, this one started off wrong, going from west to east. Edited September 9, 2015 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 9, 2015 Author #629 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Probably a waste of time starting a new thread so continuing on, it could mean, looking at the bigger west east picture that they did that too anyway. Agricultural people, agricultural words, agricultural Gods, following them is easy. I also know mtDNA K is in the grave circles at Mycenae. MtDNA K is the clincher for this whole story. In case you didn't know yet, that is my mtDNA type. Not steppe people, not IE types, not fair nomadic milk drinking warriors on horseback. Not hunter gatherers of Europe, not Mesolithic people of Europe and Britain. A different people and a different language, those who ploughed the land. I understood and picked up the Basque language easy, I pulled it apart and put it back together within this thread, please let me know where or if you see any errors within my ideas that will follow. Now who's ready for some Lego fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 9, 2015 Author #630 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) I will boldly make the statement that I think mtDNA K lines radiated out of the Garden of Eden. That is, where it says on this map: http://www.wakingtim...i-tepe-built-2/ (just got the map from there, don't actually agree with what Collins is saying in it) But the main thing here is, that I think that they were involved in the building of Gobekli Tepe as well as beginning agriculture here at the same time. Hurst has this info below when I searched for K in Turkey and I know it's in ancient Syria and it's of course a main haplogroup of Jewish people. A split in this area would have occurred imo, with some heading south and some heading into Europe at some point in time, probably closer to 5000-3000BC. A new scientific paper has been released entitled “High-throughput sequencing of complete human mtDNA genomes from the Caucasus and West Asia: high diversity and demographic inferences” by Schönberg et al. In conjunction with the paper, 147 full mtDNA sequences (in Supplementary Table 1) from Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Iran and Turkey were added to the GenBank database. Of those, seven are clearly in haplogroup K (two in K1a and one each in K, K1a4, K1a4a1, K1b1 and K1b2a) and one in U8b. Two others are probably in K, but due to problems probably related to the “high-throughput” method to produce the results, are shown as being in haplogroup R0. (Others have reported problems with sequences in this paper.) http://freepages.gen...casusorigin.htm It's titled POSSIBLE CAUCASUS ORIGIN OF MTDNA HAPLOGROUP K he ends with this: Finally, the new U8b was collected in Erevan (or Yerevan), Armenia, while the new K* was collected in Batumi, Georgia. Those two locations are just 180 miles apart, with the Armenia-Georgia-Turkey common point about half-way between. So, I still may not know where K originated; but I have a new place to look! So, not impossible but actually more than possible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_(mtDNA) Also, Ur in Sumer may not nec. be where Abraham left, Urfa is popular but Urartu imo is as good an Ur (of the Chaldees) as any. Its closer to Harran as well, a good Basque name, although its stated Harrans name comes from Akkadian, which may be true. (harranu=road) However in Hebrew it's Haran and translates differently, so I'm not quite finished with Harran yet. (Basque harri=stone, rock). Urartian, Vannic, and (in older literature) Chaldean (Khaldian, or Haldian) are conventional names for the language spoken by the inhabitants of the ancient kingdom of Urartu that was located in the region of Lake Van, with its capital near the site of the modern town of Van, in the Armenian Highland, modern-day Eastern Anatolia region of Turkey.[2] It was probably spoken by the majority of the population around Lake Van and in the areas along the upper Zab valley. The Armenian Highlands, Urartu, is the southern part of ancient Caucasian Iberia. They spoke a type of Hurrian language, neither Semitic or IE, a bit of a language isolate, like Basque and they share the same word for father. Basque aita Hurrian attai. Urartu itself could be named for the water landscape of Lake Van, with Basque word ur meaning water. The Hurrians may have been a remnant population of those who had lived in the area since the times of Gobekli. (As an interesting offside - maybe the name Paris (of Troy) can be found in Akkadian - as root PRS, literally paris = to decide/to separate - see https://en.wikipedia...gement_of_Paris ) Ok, I'm side-tracking a bit now but it's important to start at a start and the start point for this (for me) is Turkey and Armenia incorporating ancient Caucasian Iberia, (land of rivers) which I was covering the basics of above. Not wanting to bog down too much in unsubstantiated ideas, I always like to find some kind of glimpse that the idea could possibly be substantiated, however remote it may seem. But the Caucasian-Basque hypothesis was fueled not only by questionable lexical cognates, but also by a number of typological similarities. Georgian, for example, shares with Basque its ergative case system, an elaborate scheme of verbal agreement, as well as such other characteristics as agglutinative morphology, Subject-Object-Verb order, vigesimal number system (base 20), and the presence of distributive numerals. A full discussion of such similarities would be too long and too technical to be included here, but some points of commonality do deserve discussion.. Read more: http://www.languages...l#ixzz3lG9FpaVH Edited September 9, 2015 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperiorIntellect Posted September 10, 2015 #631 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Which was effectively invalidated in 2011 per "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe". To whit: The phylogenetic relationships of numerous branches within the core Y-chromosome haplogroup R-M207 support a West Asian origin of haplogroup R1b, its initial differentiation there followed by a rapid spread of one of its sub-clades carrying the M269 mutation to Europe. cormac These more recent papers should give some pause to the assertion that the quoted 2011 paper "effectively invalidated" the Iberian origin of R1b http://www.academia....ype_Aggregation http://www.academia...._Iberian_Origin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted September 10, 2015 #632 Share Posted September 10, 2015 From Superiorintellect: These more recent papers should give some pause to the assertion that the quoted 2011 paper "effectively invalidated" the Iberian origin of R1b http://www.academia....ype_Aggregation http://www.academia...._Iberian_Origin Not really as the first paper is discussing the origin of R1b-L278 and is listed by ISOGG 88 R1b1-L278 which doesn't equate to the founder R1b-M343, its parent group, originating in Iberia as well. . http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html The second link discusses the origin of R1b-V88 which is listed by ISOGG as R1b1c-V88 and connects it with its parent group R1b1-L278 (above) which itself is again suggested as having an Iberian origin. Neither paper suggests that the predecessor R1b-M343 originates in Iberia. cormac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 10, 2015 Author #633 Share Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) Thanks for that super but until I see R1b-M343 appear in Iberia earlier than it does, I'm bound to that paradigm, no matter what the papers determine. The recent turnaround on the Azkenazi mtDNA originating in Iberia shows that these crystal ball readings can't be relied upon. Simple, tangible DNA from ancient burials is the only reliable source IMO and what I research. Edited September 10, 2015 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperiorIntellect Posted September 11, 2015 #634 Share Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) I believe the conclusion of the author's analysis of R1b1-L278 & R1b1c-V88 was stated in both papers -- specifically in support of an Iberian origin of R1b-M343. The resulting phylogenetic relationships across multiple high level branches of R1b support an Iberian origin and a rapid Western Atlantic migration ... There is a strong biogeographical case for the Iberian origins of the parent SNP R1b-L278 (Maglio 2014) and evidence that a Neolithic Expansion origin is unjustified (Busby et al 2011). His reasoning for the V88 analysis (i.e. records closest to the root in question: R1b-M343) is also clearly stated. This directly challenges the cited 2011 study, among others, which specifically used further downstream records, specifically R1b1a2-M269 (used in the cited 2011 study): Previously published papers have used samples from SNP R1b-M269 and downstream subgroups to provide ample records. Genetic records from upstream SNPs (V88, M73 and PF6398) closest to the root are better suited for identifying geographic origins. My point of sharing these two studies is to reinforce the author's statement: When we talk about the origins of haplogroup R1b, what we are really referring to is the origin of SNP R-M343. There is a consensus that the parent of R1b, R1-M173, has West Asian roots. Previously published papers have presented R1b origins as Iberian, West Asian, Near East and South Asian (Semino et al 2000, Myres et al 2010, Klyosov 2012). This is far from a consensus. So, my point is that there is ongoing research into the origin of R1b, post-2011. These two studies of subgroups closer to the root add support to an Iberian origin of R1b-M343. Simply citing a single 2011 study as definitive evidence of a West Asian origin, declaring it as "invalidating" any previous study which didn't concur with its findings, and completely ignoring any later studies does not make it fact. Edited September 11, 2015 by SuperiorIntellect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 12, 2015 Author #635 Share Posted September 12, 2015 I believe the conclusion of the author's analysis of R1b1-L278 & R1b1c-V88 was stated in both papers -- specifically in support of an Iberian origin of R1b-M343. His reasoning for the V88 analysis (i.e. records closest to the root in question: R1b-M343) is also clearly stated. This directly challenges the cited 2011 study, among others, which specifically used further downstream records, specifically R1b1a2-M269 (used in the cited 2011 study): My point of sharing these two studies is to reinforce the author's statement: So, my point is that there is ongoing research into the origin of R1b, post-2011. These two studies of subgroups closer to the root add support to an Iberian origin of R1b-M343. Simply citing a single 2011 study as definitive evidence of a West Asian origin, declaring it as "invalidating" any previous study which didn't concur with its findings, and completely ignoring any later studies does not make it fact. OK, I just read both papers after having lazily neglected to when you first linked them, because I'm always time poor. He actually makes a very good case IMO and a lot of sense, as holistic things often do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted September 12, 2015 #636 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) I believe the conclusion of the author's analysis of R1b1-L278 & R1b1c-V88 was stated in both papers -- specifically in support of an Iberian origin of R1b-M343. His reasoning for the V88 analysis (i.e. records closest to the root in question: R1b-M343) is also clearly stated. This directly challenges the cited 2011 study, among others, which specifically used further downstream records, specifically R1b1a2-M269 (used in the cited 2011 study): My point of sharing these two studies is to reinforce the author's statement: So, my point is that there is ongoing research into the origin of R1b, post-2011. These two studies of subgroups closer to the root add support to an Iberian origin of R1b-M343. Simply citing a single 2011 study as definitive evidence of a West Asian origin, declaring it as "invalidating" any previous study which didn't concur with its findings, and completely ignoring any later studies does not make it fact. The conclusion of the first paper runs contrary to your contention as it specifically says: This age calculation does not represent the age of R1b in Iberia. The calculation is a better representation of the time at which the smaller subclades divided from the main branch. The purpose of the second paper is explained on the very first page and detailed in Figure 6 as well: This paper will detail the use of new analysis tools to show evidence for an Iberian origin of R1b-V88, reinforcing the evidence for its parent, R1b-L278. and Fig. 6 Origins and migration for R1b-V88. The TMRCA for the data analyzed has R1b-V88 branching from the L278 backbone at 7,700 +/- 1,600 ybp. In neither paper is it implied that the origin of R1b-M343 is Iberia as well. You're reading more into both papers than is there IMO. His reasoning is that V88, M73 and PF6398 (designated in ISOGG as R1b1c, R1b1a1 and R1b1a) closest to the root are better suited for identifying geographic origins, which is to be expected. Being better suited is not suggested in either paper as validating the origin of R1b-M343 as Iberia. Again you're reading more into it then is otherwise in evidence. The first sentence should be obvious. The second sentence is untrue as neither study supports the contention that R1b-M343 is of Iberian origin. It does however suggest the possibility that R1b-M343 has an origin closer to Iberia than western/southwestern Asia. There is a difference. How does one (in 2012) "ignore later studies" when the later studies obviously came after the one in 2012? Sorry, but my TARDIS is in the shop. cormac Edited September 12, 2015 by cormac mac airt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 12, 2015 Author #637 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) What is the opinion of you 2 or anyone else, on the Els Trocs R1b1? V-88 or something else? Edited September 12, 2015 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 12, 2015 Author #638 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Thinking more about the basque language and the word for father, aita and it's scope had me thinking that the basque R1b contingent came from somewhere ancient Turks did, maybe the Altai. This is an awesome read and the following comes from it http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperDownload.aspx?paperID=31366 they call R1a Aryans and R1b Arbins [i\i]R1b bearers, called the Arbins, comprise about 60% of the current population of western and central Europe. R1b appa- rently arose around 16,000 ybp (Klyosov, 2012b) in central Asia, perhaps in the Altai region.[\i] OK, so the language of the basques may have been formed in this area. We can add to our earlier description of haplogroup R1b’s (the Arbin’s) migratory route the following points: around 6500 - 6000 ybp, on its way from the Russian Plain south over the Caucasus and probably—concurrently—along the eastern side of the Caspian Sea and Eastern Iran, it moved to the Middle East, the Tigris and Euphrates basin; between 6000 and 5000 ybp it apparently established the Sumerian civilization; between 4800 and 4500 ybp it moved to Europe following several routes. One route brought the Arbins through Northern Africa to the Pyrenees. Between 4800 and 4500 ybp, they arrived in conti- nental Europe as bearers of the Bell-Beaker culture; another route brought the Arbins to Europe through the Mediterranean islands and the Apennines; around 4500 ybp, yet another route brought the Arbins to Europe via the Pontic steppes. In the first part of their migration, along the northern Eura- sian route, the Arbins crossed territories, populated at least for the last two millennia (and very probably also much earlier), by speakers of Turkic languages, such as Chuvashes, Bashkirs, Tatars. We can conclude that the Arbins might have carried languages which were proto-Turkic, or Dene-Caucasian, or Sino-Tibetan. We tentatively call these languages Arbin, or R1b, or Non Indo European (NIE) agglutinative languages. In the Caucasus, the Arbins left the northern Caucasian group of lan- guages, together with a characteristic vigesimal counting system . The R1b bearers brought their Arbin language(s) first to Mesopotamia, then to the Sumer state (Assyrians, the likely descendants of the Sumerians, today are largely R1b bearers, which is unusual for the Middle East [Klyosov, 2012b]), then to Iberia, where the present day Basques, 87% - 93% of whom belong to hap- logroup R1b, also employ the vigesimal counting system. As Bell Beaker tribes the Arbins moved north to continental Europe, and brought their agglutinative NIE languages, which apparently were spoken in Europe between 4500 and 3500 - 3000 ybp, and up into the Common Era (e.g., probably, Picts) and to the present (Basques). sys- tem. Two thousand years later, the Arbins brought the same base-20 counting system to the Pyrenees. Perfect. Everything is fitting well. Maybe Ur is named same as Basque etymology, water, after all. They settled in Iberia as Bell Beakers, some probably left the coast to settle in Basque Country and continental Europe and traversed the Atlantic to the British Isles. Then.... During the period of 3000 - 2300 ybp many R1a tribes mi- grated with their IE languages from the Russian Plain to central, western and southern Europe bringing to Europe the peoples later called Germans, Italics, Greeks, Illyrians, Balto-Slavs, and Celts (the Hallstatt and La Tene cultures flourished between 2600 and 2400 ybp). We posit that some Arbin peoples adopted the IE languages from the R1a bearers and, in exchange, intro- duced NIE loan words and grammatical structures. One group of Arbins were forebears of the Basques in the Pyrenees and the South of France, as well as the Picts in northern Scotland, and, possibly, the Etruscans in Tuscany[\i] This seems logical, Greek history is full of language changing mentions, the Athenians themselves changed theirs, from Pelasgic. Athenians are never shown as fair haired. As the R1a IE speakers dominance of the language took hold, it may be that because the Basque Country became an area that did not participate in much R1a societal matters, the new IE based language did not take hold there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted September 12, 2015 #639 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) What is the opinion of you 2 or anyone else, on the Els Trocs R1b1? V-88 or something else? Since Haak, et al. 2015 only gives a designation of R1b1 with no other suggestion of a subclade it can only be seen as R1b1-M415 as given in the following paper, concerning Els Trocs: We determined that this individual belonged to haplogroup R1b1 (M415:9170545C→A), with upstream haplogroup R1b (M343:2887824C→A) also supported. However, the individual was ancestral for R1b1a1 (M478:23444054T→C), R1b1a2 (PF6399:2668456C→T, L265:8149348A→G, L150.1:10008791C→T and M269:22739367T→C), R1b1c2 (V35:6812012T→A), and R1b1c3 (V69:18099054C→T), and could thus be designated R1b1*(xR1b1a1, R1b1a2, R1b1c2, R1b1c3). http://www.biorxiv.o...013433.full.pdf cormac Edited September 12, 2015 by cormac mac airt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 12, 2015 Author #640 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Since Haak, et al. 2015 only gives a designation of R1b1 with no other suggestion of a subclade it can only be seen as R1b1-M415 as given in the following paper, concerning Els Trocs: http://www.biorxiv.o...013433.full.pdf cormac Thanks. I was on biorxiv but couldn't find the full pdf file on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperiorIntellect Posted September 16, 2015 #641 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Since Haak, et al. 2015 only gives a designation of R1b1 with no other suggestion of a subclade it can only be seen as R1b1-M415 as given in the following paper, concerning Els Trocs: http://www.biorxiv.o...013433.full.pdf cormac I concur here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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