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The Puzzler

Trojans were Basques?

641 posts in this topic

Note the title is 2 questions.

I have been thinking about this for a long time now, it seems to me it wouldn't be too hard to imagine that ancient sailors from the Atlantic seaboard, (where Portugal now is, up to Basque country) who have a darker Mediterranean look, like the Spanish, usually dark brown/black eyes, curly dark hair etc, arrived in the Mediterranean and landed in Libya, Malta, Sicily, Crete and even on to Troy. Bringing in the male Earth bull, and that darker look they have than Northern Europeans.

I pointed out once a painting that showed a consistency in the dress of ancient Crete...

RP2S000Z.jpg

Portugese Ladies in Goa

The ladies have their breasts out, not only that, the black snake curl hair can also be seen. So, I reckon they look like Cretans for a start, and they bought in the Bull. I'm aware the bull can be found at early sites in Near East but I also think that a bull cult also developed in the East, that of a mother cow cult, not the male Earth bull. I also think the Lion motif may have come in with these European people. The Bull and Lion are seen all through the Paleolithic in Europe.

Then I was checking out the Basque language, because I like to look at languages and play 'lego linguistics', but I couldn't help but notice one word...

hiri `Town, city'. The word is ancient, and its earlier form *ili is attested in a number of ancient place names, the most famous being the mysterious Iliberris in Granada (modern Elvira); this is transparently *ili plus berri `new', but no one knows how a Basque place name could be found so far south.

http://www.buber.net...sque.words.html

Another guy who got panned badly did try to decipher Linear A into Basque, seems it was 'lego linguistics' too, but who knows really, could be something in it.

Anyway, the word above is hiri but an earlier form is ILI which means town or city... of course I then immediately thought of Ilium of the Iliad, always known as the CITY of Troy.

Nothing says this name cannot be Wilusa, which would just be a changed form of the true ILI sound for city/town. I could then move onto Iberia in the Caucasus, where Colchis and the River Phasis was.

ibai `River'. This is the most widespread word, though there exists also uhalde, ugalde, especially in the east; this is a compound of ur `water' and alde `side'. The word ibai itself appears to be a derivative of ibar `valley', but perhaps originally `water-meadow'. Curiously, perhaps, the great majority of river names in the Basque Country are of non-Basque origin, though an outstanding exception is the biggest river in the Basque heartland, the Ibaizabal, from ibai plus zabal `wide'.

http://www.buber.net...sque.words.html

I'll leave it at that for now, finding the word ILI as city/town was interesting though.

You must be very careful when trying to translate Vasco words to English. The word itself is characterised by the sentence and therefore can have many meanings. There is also absolutely no connection to Linear A.

The first recorded Basque Text is from the 16th Century (other than place names) so any linkage to Linear A is specious.

So could the Basque (Vasco) people really be the Trojans? Highly unlikely because the Basque people did not organise themselves that way. Thay were fishers (no distinction between between male and female), they certainly traded Tin with Cornwall in England ( look at the common phonemes), and more importantly, look at their isolation from other languages.

I am fairly certain that during the Roman period they had almost no contact with Latin, that they kept their ancient trading roots with the south west of England, and both languages developed as isolates. IMO

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Just one more thing - the Basques are "lighter" in colouration that the rest of Spain, also much stockier. But.. the one defining trait is the high preponderance of O Rh Negative blood typing.

Edited by keithisco

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That was part of the three points from your last of three links. Which run counter to your Iberian/Basque/Portugese origin of anything from a genetic standpoint, concerning the Mediterranean. Even the truth about R1b's origins, contrary to Oppenheimer's claim, don't support your speculations.

cormac

Oppenheimer's not on his own, amongst the many Bryan Sykes Professor of Human Genetics at the University of Oxford and a current Fellow of Wolfson College says much the same in "Blood of the isles" it only confirms what archaeologist and linguists have been saying for 30 years or more.

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Oppenheimer's not on his own, amongst the many Bryan Sykes Professor of Human Genetics at the University of Oxford and a current Fellow of Wolfson College says much the same in "Blood of the isles" it only confirms what archaeologist and linguists have been saying for 30 years or more.

Sykes book deals with England and Ireland and NOT an Iberian (whether Basque or Portugese) origin of any peoples of the Mediterranean. That there is a connection between a subgroup of R1b (namely R1b1a1a1b in Iberia and R1b1a1a1b4 in England and Ireland) has been confirmed, but R1b itself DID NOT originate in Iberia.

cormac

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Sykes book deals with England and Ireland and NOT an Iberian (whether Basque or Portugese) origin of any peoples of the Mediterranean. That there is a connection between a subgroup of R1b (namely R1b1a1a1b in Iberia and R1b1a1a1b4 in England and Ireland) has been confirmed, but R1b itself DID NOT originate in Iberia.

cormac

R1b originating Eurasia ? refuge in Iberia during the last glacial period, moving north following the retreating ice sheets.

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the comments are interesting and I want to add some more images and names concerning the megaliths in Spain and Portugal. I would think that the Iberians predate the Celtic influences in both Spain and Portugal as a Buryan/Burjan related tribe, but that some Celts would be of these same ancestors of Northern territories, i.e. as Fir Bolg, Picts, and in Ireland, Scotland, and England as Druidic, Celtic, Anglo-Saxons after the Iron Age period. I want to address the periods before this, and megalith structures in these regions, and Copper and Bronze Ages as applicable.

In Portugal rgwew is the site called Evora (Ebora), Anta Grande do Zambujeiro. I'll attach an image of the rocks. I would suggest a relationship between Burjan and Bujeiro.

post-110550-0-06146400-1329258098_thumb.

In Evora is also the ring stones called Cromeleque dos Almendres. I'll attach a picture.

post-110550-0-89476200-1329258178_thumb.

Also in Evora, the Roman Temple called Yaburah. I would suggest Buryah comes from Buryan/Burjan. I'll attach a picture.

post-110550-0-10459800-1329258268_thumb.

I'll also attach two Ireland maps, and note the location called "The Burren" in Claire County Ireland. On one map note the spelling "Vellabori - ?, and I would suggest the Burren is Borean, and also Buryan/Burjan in origin, or Fir Bolg Picts as a Celtic form of these folks. Vellabori exhibits mining as well. I believe Fir Bolg means Fire Rock, or Firestone, and they are miners and blacksmiths. The oldest mines in Ireland are close to here on the south end of the Isle.

I'll attach a "Vellabori" location map for Ireland. I would suggest the "Bori" in this word in today called "the Burren", in Clair County, Ireland. The stones and location are part of megalith's timeline herein posted.

post-110550-0-53910600-1329258397_thumb.

I'm R1a as Burian surname, and Czech-Bohemian-American, but, there is a Czech-Burian story said to trace to about the 1200 cent AD on the origins in Cornwall Englad at St Buryan's church, and St. Buriana (Irish 5th cent.) said missionary name who brought the name here for this church. Later, exilled by Normans to France, then later to Bohemia. Burians' as a name could readily be in Bohemia anyway, and I'm of West Bohemians, and Prague. My yDNA R1a1 approximates my lineage in Central Europe at about 1500 BC, Russian Steppes (Ukrainian) around 3000 BC, and Caucasus at about 3-5,000 BC. Would fit a Central Asian "Kurgan Culture" to some degree regionally.

I agree that yDNA is not mature to the degree we would like, but I see some ancient historical data I've personally worked on this tribe to conform as a 1st order approximation, and I can't argue with my own yDNA analysis, but one mist weight its relevance carefully. The locational factors as those I've attached can perhaps give us a better ethos verification on locations, I hope.

I use Buryan (Siberian, and Burjan (Arabic) as my primary base tribal name/s. I think this is proper, for now. You can see both of these variants in the locational names attached, and Borean=Burjan=Buryan. See if this is workable for megaliths too.

Comments welcome, GGG guy.

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R1b originating Eurasia?

Southwest Asia, actually

Y-DNA Haplogroup R and its Subclades - 2012

Refuge in Iberia during the last glacial period, moving north following the retreating ice sheets.

Nope.

Contrary to this, for those lineages for which a post-glacial European recolonization from a Franco- Cantabrian refuge was proposed, we have not found any evidence of such expansion in the Cantabrian Cornice. For instance, diversity values for haplogroup V are significantly higher in Southern Iberia than in the Cornice and, confirming previous results (Simoni et al., 2000), we have not found significant latitudinal clines for this haplogroup. Furthermore, focussing on haplotype sharing, the Cornice is the most divergent area, despite North-east Iberia being the closest region to the rest of Europe. This could mean that the proposed expansion had a French instead of a Cantabrian origin, but the recent mtDNA regional study on French samples weakens this possibility (Dubut et al., 2004).

Using mitochondrial DNA to test the hypothesis of a European post-glacial human recolonization from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge

Meaning that the Franco-Cantabrian Refuge explanation for the repopulation of Europe appears to be no longer tenable. Not that it has anything to do with the claims in the OP, it doesn't.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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It's been a while and in my absence, its good too see more on the Iberian Spain question. I've always thought that Iberians in Spain are the very same Caucasus Iberians. I'll add some text to that end. My quotes are from a book called Archaic England (AE) by Harold Bayley, pub - J.B. Lippincott Co. (Philadelphi) - Chapman & Hall LTD. (London), 1920.

(AE, after ~ p. 328) "On the Sierra de 'Elvira' near Granada used to stand Ilibiris whose coins are inscribed ILIBERI, ILBRS, ILIBERRIS, LIBER, ILBERNEN, ILBRNAKN, ILBREKIN, and these legends may be connoted with the famous Irish leprechaun, or Lubarkin whose figures less prominently in England as the Lubrican or Lubberkin. Sometimes the Irish knock off the 'holy' and refer simply to 'a little prechaun', but more usual form is Lubarkin: this most remarkable of the fairy tribe in Ireland is supposed to be peculiar to that island, but one would have once met him at Brecon, or Brychain at Brecknock, at Brichin in Forfarshrine, at Burchington in Kent, at Barking near London, and in many more directions. In connection with Iberia in the West there occur references to a giant Bergyon, who may be connoted with Burchun of the Asiatic Buratys. The religion of these Buratys was , said Bell, downright paganism of the grossest kind: he adds the information, 'they talk, indeed, of an Almighty and Good Being who created all things, whom they call Burchum; but see bewildered in obscure and fabulous notions concerning His nature and government'. Inquires may prove that these Burchum worshiping Buratys were of the Asiatic Iberian race which Strabo supposed were descendants of Western Iberi."

So I would claim (my Grand Global Genome theory) that the Buryans (Burjans as Arabic) are the same Siberian, Iberians (Caucasus), who went to Spain, and to India as the god Kubera, and this ties into the pygmy-leprechaun of England and Ireland. The Author here failed to mention Siberian god of mountains "Tengra", and Tengranism practiced by the shamans from here, nor the the factor that they should be the blacksmiths as well, who made the coins he refers to in this book, in my opinion, as they should be miners and metallugist by my approximations. The salt mime in Azerbaijan date to 5000 BC. Ringstone structures can also be found here. I would also claim them as Hyperboreans, and the Alboran, and Alborean Seas off the Spanish coastlines, and Balearic Isles. Unfortunately, the coins limit the timeline in Iberian Spain to about 400 BC, unless someone has an earlier date, and these coins are typified as Celtiberian in general, as well as some of the Celtiberian script on them. These folks would be of a "wolf-tribe" tamga, and some coins exhibit wolf, horses, and bulls. I'm aware of a Bora named mint in Spain regions. An unbridled horse on coins can mean "LIBERTY" as well. The author discusses this in the same book.

I think they are also of Bad Tibira in Sumer, and the city called Ur (dog) perhaps. I 'm also attempting to assimilate the tribe of Benjamin of Israel (the archers) into this Sibero-Ibero envelope. The biblical Abraham originates from Ur. Bad Tibira is the Sumerian "blacksmiths" location, and close to Ur. Temples related to Ur are called Ur Bar Ra (Urbarra) here. One should note that Bad Tibira received its ore from Mt. Arali in Africa, as one source within the old text, because the Sumerian lowlands didn't posses any good ore. Bad Tibira dates to ~3000BC and the Sumerian 2nd dynasty.

I agree with the megalith timeline referenced herein, and this is the same structures which I think can be a Hyperborean-Apollo type migrations, that also became one of the tribal builders of the megaliths. My study only traces Buryan-Burjan-Borean type tribes, however the Budin, Budini (Odin), named tribes are gaining more prominence as related, and does lead to a Buri-Bor-Odin-Thor relationships. I believe that the post Trojan War date is correct for most of my research concerning this Central Asian-European connection to actual text, but the megalithic structures certainly exhibits locational names that strongly suggests earlier settlements than the Iron Age time frames. Should be an earlier, more barbaric episode in Spain, and elsewhere. As Celts, my tribe is likely the Fir-Bolg, and/or the Eburones, around Belgium, or the Netherlands. I also believe the Norse orginate in the East Baltic, the became West Baltic later, that is Sweeden-Danish-Iceland Scandinavians. I see the Finnic-Saami regions and the Russian rivers as the earlier migration path, and to be higher probability. This connects Norse myths to Iberians of the Caucasus, and, also to Spain therefrom. Noah is from here too, Mt Ararat, or Georgia (al Burjan in Iranian myths).

Whether or not any of these people stayed in these locations as a DNA record today should be part of analysis, as in some cases, miners would extract ore to the extent ore would produce, and they could simply leave if the ore ran out. Some studies have mentioned only fragments of a settlements at all around some smaller ancient mined locations. I think the Phoenicians could be of this nature as they were seemingly "traders", not miners perhaps. I think the Hyperboreans and Phoenicians were early trading partners, so this could allow a miner-Sea People pathway to go west to Spain.

The god Kabeiros is on Spain's coins (Belearic Isles), on Ligurian coins (on the Genoa question), and on Phoenician coins. Also, on Thessaly coins (see Veria, Berea in Macedonia).

Thanks for the blog and I hope this brings some areas of interest to the table, GGG guy.

Thanks GGG, I found it interesting that 'ur' means water in Basque, quite an appropriate name for Ur...

lur means land.

The CeltiIberians imo were people who had come into Spain c. 900BC from the Celtic core, which had moved West from the Black Sea and Thrace, all these people in ancient writings have yellow hair, blue eyes cropped up genetically on the Black Sea c. 10,000BC or was it 10,000 years ago, one of those of hand.

Seems to me a possible migration out of the areas of Scandinavia and Finland into this general core area occurred too, either from migration out, from a possible northern disaster, a trade route, West for tin and other minerals, as well as salt, found in Iberia, the speakers who spoke IE.

Ligurians imo are from a more Northern area, even Thrace or Northern Europe, who entered the area early and began sailing and trading with the Iberians, Etruscans, Phoenicians and others. They were fair or auburn haired. Auburn meant 'lighter than black' once.

I agree that from the Black Sea and mix of Scandinavian/Finnish and Celtic movement into Spain is likely as become a large part of who made up Iberia at that time.

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Just one more thing - the Basques are "lighter" in colouration that the rest of Spain, also much stockier. But.. the one defining trait is the high preponderance of O Rh Negative blood typing.

Fair enough Keith, thanks for your opinion.

The Sicani of Malta and Sicily are constantly referred to as being recorded as related to Iberians, so that keeps me thinking.

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220px-Cuenco_de_Los_Millares.png

Owl eyes on bowl from Los Millares, reminding me of Athena.

Los Millares is the name of a Chalcolithic occupation site 17 km north of Almería, in the municipality of Santa Fe de Mondújar, Andalusia, Spain. The complex was in use from the end of the fourth millennium to the end of the second millennium BC and probably supported somewhere around 1000 people.

The 5 acre (2ha) site consists of three concentric lines of stone walls, the outer ring the largest, running more than 650 feet with nineteen 'bastions' and a gate guarded by foreworks.[1] The road to the site is guarded by four smaller outlying stone forts.[1] There is an extensive cemetery of eighty passage grave tombs.[1] Radiocarbon dating has established that one wall collapsed and was rebuilt around 3025 BC.

The complex described above sounds like Troy, the Los Millares people could have been building concentric circled walls with a gate into their town since at least the 4th millenium BC.

Other Iberian settlements in this region of a similar age to Los Millares include the settlement of Los Silillos and Neolithic finds at Cabrera.[4]

Similarities between Los Millares architecture and the step pyramid at Monte d'Accoddi in Sardinia have been noticed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Millares

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I found this interesting article on the Basque people.

http://www.aoi.com.au/bcw/neanderbasque.htm

Yes, I read that one, some good points bought up for sure.

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Oppenheimer's not on his own, amongst the many Bryan Sykes Professor of Human Genetics at the University of Oxford and a current Fellow of Wolfson College says much the same in "Blood of the isles" it only confirms what archaeologist and linguists have been saying for 30 years or more.

Yes, it's always possible they just have not identified older strains of R1b in Western Europe yet.

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The paper repeats the standard claims about the origin of R1b and its main sublineage R-M269 in Asia, but presents no new information that would support this claim. With the state of the evidence, I see no real reason to prefer a West Asian to a Southeastern European origin for this haplogroup.

I don't give much credence to small differences in Y-STR variance, due to the large confidence intervals associated with such estimates, and it is interesting that the authors do not present an argument from Y-STR variation about the origin of R1b, preferring to make broad statements about Mesolithic-Neolithic movements into Europe.

A study of supplementary table S2 which gives coalescent times reveals that there is no clear pattern of greater Asian diversity within haplogroup R1b or its subclades. And, while Central-Western Europe does appear to be an outgrowth of R1b rather than a place of origin (with the dominance of derived R-M412 lineages) there is nothing in the paper that would make one prefer West Asia to Southeastern Europe as a place of origin.

Personally I think the issue cannot be settled yet, but there are reasons to prefer the latter option. An Asian origin of R1b has a major parsimony hurdle: it would require a seemingly directed drang nach westen for R1b, into Europe, and into North Africa, with a paucity of R1b in the opposite direction (among Arabians and to the south and in South Asia) and a scattering of very young R-M73 and R-M269 to the east of Europe.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2010/08/r1b-founder-effect-in-central-and.html

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The Bell Beaker style is also found very early in Portugal.

The Bell Beaker phenomenon in the Iberian peninsula defines the late phase of the local Chalcolithic and even intrudes in the earliest centuries of the Bronze Age.[30] A review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe found that some of the earliest were found in Portugal, where the range from Zambujal and Cerro de la Virgen ran between 2900 BC and 2500 BC, in contrast to the rather later range for Andalusia (between 2500BC to 2200 BC).[11]

At present no internal chronology for the various Bell Beaker-related styles has been achieved yet for Iberia.[31] Peninsular corded Bell Beakers are usually found in coastal or near coastal regions in three main regions: the western Pyrenees, the lower Ebro and adjacent east coast, and the northwest. A corded-zoned Maritime variety (C/ZM), proposed to be a hybrid between AOC and Maritime Herringbone, was mainly found in burial contexts and expanded westward, especially along the mountain systems of the Meseta.

With some notable exceptions, most Iberian early Bell Beaker burials are at or near the coastal regions. As for the settlements and monuments within the Iberian context, Beaker pottery is generally found in association with local Chalcolithic material and appears most of all as an "intrusion" from the 3rd millennium in burial monuments whose origin may go back to the 4th or 5th millennium BC.

Very early dates for Bell Beakers were found in Castelo Velho de Freixo de Numão in Guarda, Northern Portugal. The site was located on the summit of a spur. A short-lived first occupation of pre-Bell Beaker building phase about 3000 BC revealed the remains of a tower, some pavings and structures for burning. After a break of one or two centuries, Bell Beaker pottery was introduced in a second building phase that lasted to the Early Bronze Age, about 1800 BC. A third building phase followed directly and lasted to about 1300 BC, after which the site was covered with layers of stone and clay, apparently deliberately, and abandoned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Beaker_culture

Also, an example of the oldest finds may not indicate points of origin:

This is the same problem various people have pointed out with Out of Africa. Proposition: "Oh, we find the most ancient human remains in the East-African Rift Valley; humans must come from East-Africa." Counter: "Conditions there make it very easy to preserve remains in the Rift Valley. Finding bones in the Rift Valley proves such people were there at a given time, not that they originated there."

The same logic applies, exactly, in this case. The Neolithic (Semitic-speakers?) who set up colonies in parts of Western-Europe, had burial practices that allow for easier discovery and identification now.

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2011/11/breaking-news-neolithic-iberian-dna.html

One more article:

I have not read the paper, so I can't comment in detail. Two quick comments:

The discovery of G2a is added to the finds from Treilles, Derenburg, and the Alps. It is now virtually certain that the Neolithic transition in much of Europe, both inland, and coastal involved G2a-bearing men.

The discovery of E-V13 in Spain is unexpected on a number of different reasons: there is relatively little of it there now; it had previously been associated with the inland route of the spread of agriculture, as well as the spread of the Greeks to Sicily and Provence, or Roman soldiers at a much later date.

While this Neolithic E-V13 may well have come from the Balkans, and the common ancestor of the very uniform present-day Balkan cluster may have lived after this Spanish find, it is now certain that E-V13 was established in Europe long before the Bronze Age. This highlights the need to avoid Y-STR based calculations on modern populations for inferring patterns of ancient history, and not to conflate TMRCAs with "dates of arrival": "In short: a particular TMRCA is consistent with either the arrival of the lineage long before and long after the TMRCA in a particular geographical area."

At least for now, three of the major players of the European genetic landscape (E-V13, G2a, and I2a) have made their Neolithic appearance. Hopefully, as more ancient DNA is published, and even from later dates, more of them will turn up.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html

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The discovery of E-V13 in Spain is unexpected on a number of different reasons: there is relatively little of it there now; it had previously been associated with the inland route of the spread of agriculture, as well as the spread of the Greeks to Sicily and Provence, or Roman soldiers at a much later date.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html

E1b1b1a1b (E-V13). This is the most common type of E1b1b found in Europe and is especially common in the Balkans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#Sub_Clades_of_E1b1b1a1_.28E-M78.29

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Puzz - Current research indicates that the quite small site of the speculated Troy (Hisarlik, Wilusa in the Hittite texts) was occupied by Luwain-speaking members of the Arzawan states that were a vassal possession of the Hittite empire in west Anatolia. Given genetics, timelines, material culture, and language groupings, it may be rather difficult to derive credible support for your speculations.

.

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Yes, it's always possible they just have not identified older strains of R1b in Western Europe yet.

R1b (the parent group) originates in Southwest Asia <18,500 BP with intermediate subgroups aligning similarly and R1b1a2-M269 (Anatolia) is the first in Europe c.7000 BC then there is no older group that can be responsible.

The paper repeats the standard claims about the origin of R1b and its main sublineage R-M269 in Asia, but presents no new information that would support this claim. With the state of the evidence, I see no real reason to prefer a West Asian to a Southeastern European origin for this haplogroup.

Which was effectively invalidated in 2011 per "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe". To whit:

The phylogenetic relationships of numerous branches within the core Y-chromosome haplogroup R-M207 support a West Asian origin of haplogroup R1b, its initial differentiation there followed by a rapid spread of one of its sub-clades carrying the M269 mutation to Europe.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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Puzz - Current research indicates that the quite small site of the speculated Troy (Hisarlik, Wilusa in the Hittite texts) was occupied by Luwain-speaking members of the Arzawan states that were a vassal possession of the Hittite empire in west Anatolia. Given genetics, timelines, material culture, and language groupings, it may be rather difficult to derive credible support for your speculations.

.

Maybe, I do hear you though.

I edited my answer to your post.

Edited by The Puzzler

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R1b (the parent group) originates in Southwest Asia <18,500 BP with intermediate subgroups aligning similarly and R1b1a2-M269 (Anatolia) is the first in Europe c.7000 BC then there is no older group that can be responsible.

Which was effectively invalidated in 2011 per "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe". To whit:

cormac

OK, fair enough.

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I'd like to ask a question though.

According to your opinions, who built the most ancient structures on Malta if not the Sicani, who were said to be Iberian?

Pottery found by archeologists at Skorba resembles that found in Italy, and suggests that the Maltese islands were first settled in 5200 BC mainly by stone age hunters or farmers who had arrived from the larger island of Sicily, possibly the Sicani. The extinction of the dwarf hippos and dwarf elephants has been linked to the earliest arrival of humans on Malta.[29] Prehistoric farming settlements dating to Early Neolithic period were discovered in open areas and also in caves, such as Għar Dalam.[30]

The Sicani were the only tribe known to have inhabited the island at this time[31][32] and are generally regarded as related to the Iberians.[33] The population on Malta grew cereals, raised domestic livestock and, in common with other ancient Mediterranean cultures, worshiped a fertility figure represented in Maltese prehistoric artifacts as exhibiting the large proportions seen in similar statuettes, including the Venus of Willendorf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta

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I'd like to ask a question though.

According to your opinions, who built the most ancient structures on Malta if not the Sicani, who were said to be Iberian?

Pottery found by archeologists at Skorba resembles that found in Italy, and suggests that the Maltese islands were first settled in 5200 BC mainly by stone age hunters or farmers who had arrived from the larger island of Sicily, possibly the Sicani. The extinction of the dwarf hippos and dwarf elephants has been linked to the earliest arrival of humans on Malta.[29] Prehistoric farming settlements dating to Early Neolithic period were discovered in open areas and also in caves, such as Għar Dalam.[30]

The Sicani were the only tribe known to have inhabited the island at this time[31][32] and are generally regarded as related to the Iberians.[33] The population on Malta grew cereals, raised domestic livestock and, in common with other ancient Mediterranean cultures, worshiped a fertility figure represented in Maltese prehistoric artifacts as exhibiting the large proportions seen in similar statuettes, including the Venus of Willendorf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta

I don't have a problem with the possibility that the Sicani built or had at least some measure of responsibility for the structures on Malta. I DO have a problem with the pretense, whether ancient or modern, that the Sicani were Iberian in origin. Or that the Iberians are responsible for repopulating Europe, as the evidence suggests otherwise.

cormac

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Here's Marija Gimbutas' answer:

Old Europe is a term coined by archaeologist Marija Gimbutas to describe what she perceives as a relatively homogeneous and widespread pre-Indo-European Neolithic culture in Europe, particularly in Malta and the Balkans.

In her major work, The Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe: 6500–3500 B.C. (1982), she refers to these Neolithic cultures as Old Europe. Archaeologists and ethnographers working within her framework believe that the evidence points to migrations of the peoples who spoke Indo-European languages at the beginning of the Bronze age (the Kurgan hypothesis). For this reason, Gimbutas and her associates regard the terms Neolithic Europe, Old Europe, and Pre-Indo-European as synonymous.

pre-Indo European Neolithic culture - so who were these people?

In historical times, some ethnonyms are believed to correspond to Pre-Indo-European peoples, assumed to be the descendants of the earlier Old European cultures: the Pelasgians, Minoans, Leleges, Iberians, Etruscans and Basques. Two of the three pre-Greek peoples of Sicily, the Sicans and the Elymians, may also have been pre-Indo-European. The term "Pre-Indo-European" is sometimes extended to refer to Asia Minor and Central Asia, in which case the Hurrians and Urartians are sometimes included.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_European_culture

So, according to her, it must have been some of these people who built them.

So, even though I have said that Trojans may not have been Basques, it is obvious that these pre-Indo European people were making a huge dint in the Mediterranean.

If it wasn't Basques or Aquitini involved, one wonders who built the similar structures in their homelands...

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I don't have a problem with the possibility that the Sicani built or had at least some measure of responsibility for the structures on Malta. I DO have a problem with the pretense, whether ancient or modern, that the Sicani were Iberian in origin. Or that the Iberians are responsible for repopulating Europe, as the evidence suggests otherwise.

cormac

3 q's cormac because I actually do value your input.

1.How do you know the Sicani were not Iberian in origin?

2.How do you know what haplogroup they are/were?

Two of the three pre-Greek peoples of Sicily, the Sicans and the Elymians, may also have been pre-Indo-European.

3.Where do you suggest they came from?

The thing is the megalithic structures are all throughout Western Europe as well, I find it hard to think the same groups did not build them all.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Puzz - Current research indicates that the quite small site of the speculated Troy (Hisarlik, Wilusa in the Hittite texts) was occupied by Luwain-speaking members of the Arzawan states that were a vassal possession of the Hittite empire in west Anatolia. Given genetics, timelines, material culture, and language groupings, it may be rather difficult to derive credible support for your speculations.

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Troy I was built c. 3000BC so I'd be looking for the original builders of this structure.

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