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The Puzzler

Trojans were Basques?

641 posts in this topic

Also, in Portugal, there is a Beiro city.

post-110550-0-57526400-1330468698_thumb.

Note spelling on image. I have other pics with spelling variants, but too large to download here.

I also think I left out this Ligurian coin that exhibits Kabeiros deity.

post-110550-0-77527300-1330469269_thumb.

Collectively, I see Ligurians as both Hyperboreans and/or Burjans of the Po River Valley, and as Etruscans as they connect to Lemnos Isle (by grave marker syntax), and as Ligurian-Celtiberians by language, and other, such as place names, and deities.

Are these the same Iberians of Spain? See if these factors ring some bells? Thanks for the feedback, GGG guy, and I need to review the comment attachments yet.

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GGG, you said: "My research on my Czech surname became a general tribe name study, well beyond my personal affiliation as a descendant of this same tribe and tribe name ethos."

There you go: you are out to try to prove you descended from some great and ancient people.

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Abremelin, I think your correct, but you used the word "great", and this word wasn't used by me. This is just one tribe. Get used to it. And, no, I didn't fabricate this name of my own volition, I inherited it. I didn't didn't contrive these locational names on maps or coins, as I show. and, I can't possibly make up such a story anyway. Because, I'm not smart enough to contrive all of these factors. Sorry if you see my findings as so alarming, and intrusive, apparently. This, is in part, the reason I'm attempting to raise visability, because I think my theory on this tribal name can cover historical blank holes where I constantly find missing links.

I can take on professional critique, but you won't win on a personal integrity basis, if your attempting to discredit my theory, my ideas, or my research for this tribe in the regions as discussed herein. I'm soory but you need to use some showing of theory, or hard proofs to make your case. But, thanks for the comments anyway, Its funny how the historical ball bounces, isn't it. The maps and coins don't lie, do they?

Besides, Strabo was likely correct in my opinion, concerning Iberian Spain. This is just one tribe. Get used to it.

And, I'll attach an image of an underworld "wolf god" of Central America. So Abremelin, what does this god have in common with Ptah in Egypt, and who uses fire, and for what purpose. Why is hell on fire?

post-110550-0-55359000-1330490047_thumb.

Sorry, this may make it a bit harder yet to reconcile, aye? I wonder what the cross means? Why the colors? Did the space aliens bring hell with them, too? To a "flat" globe you can't orbit around?

Comments welcome, thanks, and no, I don't feel my feathers are ruffled, GGG guy.

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Abremelin, I think your correct, but you used the word "great", and this word wasn't used by me. This is just one tribe. Get used to it. And, no, I didn't fabricate this name of my own volition, I inherited it. I didn't didn't contrive these locational names on maps or coins, as I show. and, I can't possibly make up such a story anyway. Because, I'm not smart enough to contrive all of these factors. Sorry if you see my findings as so alarming, and intrusive, apparently. This, is in part, the reason I'm attempting to raise visability, because I think my theory on this tribal name can cover historical blank holes where I constantly find missing links.

I can take on professional critique, but you won't win on a personal integrity basis, if your attempting to discredit my theory, my ideas, or my research for this tribe in the regions as discussed herein. I'm soory but you need to use some showing of theory, or hard proofs to make your case. But, thanks for the comments anyway, Its funny how the historical ball bounces, isn't it. The maps and coins don't lie, do they?

Besides, Strabo was likely correct in my opinion, concerning Iberian Spain. This is just one tribe. Get used to it.

And, I'll attach an image of an underworld "wolf god" of Central America. So Abremelin, what does this god have in common with Ptah in Egypt, and who uses fire, and for what purpose. Why is hell on fire?

post-110550-0-55359000-1330490047_thumb.

Sorry, this may make it a bit harder yet to reconcile, aye? I wonder what the cross means? Why the colors? Did the space aliens bring hell with them, too? To a "flat" globe you can't orbit around?

Comments welcome, thanks, and no, I don't feel my feathers are ruffled, GGG guy.

Considering that surnames, as such, didn't exist until about the 11th century AD, you HAVE fabricated its relevance to R1a1 which is several millenia older. The only reasonably solid ground you 'could' be on would concern R1a1 and subgroups as to origin/migrational patterns. By attempting to prove your surnames relevance, however, you're treading quicksand.

cormac

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Your correct again about the R1a1, and the fact that I'm using speculation as to suggest my R1a1 is carried in my surname many millenniums back in time. I should point out that your inference is off because I don't lean on DNA as any proof for anything, although it does seem to comply with my historical research quite well to a first order approximation. DNA has several issues other the the ones you mention to show it falls short of any proofs acceptable to most historians.

On the other hand, my family did know the presumptuous spellings of this name, prior to this European realignment of languages and spelling as you suggest. These were Buryan (90% of my relatives), and Burjan (~10%), and that he would be of Czech./Bohemian (West Czech's), and of Prague. He also had fled Bohemia ~1882 and came to America, St Louis. So I have found that these two spelling roots are basically interchangeable, and that a "j" in the spelling fits my older Austria/Bohemia, and may included the name "Bayern" which we know as Baveria today. Most relatives suggest the spelling as Burian was in place already in Bohemia at this time. I believe this occurred after ~1500 AD where earlier references tend to a 'j', or a "y". Otherwise, why does Bayern have a "y"?

I have historical tracking based on the rest of this imformation, and the DNA came later. I tested my DNA after I traced this name to Buryan, or Buryat, of Siberia. I did the DNA because I didn't believe these outcomes of my tribe tracing. I found this tribe/surname relationship due to the Marduan Princedom (Burjan, Buri, or Buryan tribe) on the Volga River in Russia, and dates to 747 AD (date from memory). This location, and name of princedom changed in 760 AD as Bolgar City, and Bulgar/likely Khazars took control. Burlgars and Burjan tribal names are interelated for many milleniums, although, I think there yet independant tribes. Both these tribe are quite difficult to study. I can show though that indeed a surname "can" evolve in this way, because it is a tribal name, and I now think, also became deified, because of Siberian shaman practices and beliefs, I contend were the very same ancestors. I knew a lit before I test my yDNA, so it was quite simple to check aqainst actuall researched and known dates and global locations.

Incidently, the "Winter Festival" comes from the Marduan Pricedom as a Burjan/Buryan festival. You know this as "Christmas". I suppose I need to fix this too, aye? St. Nicholus shrine is in Bari Italy (10th cent. AD). The coat of arms of Bari Italy has the same blue/white checkerboard as does Bayerns (Bavaria), and mathes the on the BMW car logo. Maybe you can explain this for all of us, and I doubt the DNA experts will. The DNA may be able to support the research results though.

My research is entirely backed with historical relavent data, which is how I originally gather this information anyway. You should also note, that I use the context "if I'm correct" than that would suggests the tribe would be R1a1, because I tested my DNA, and by INFERENCE, can suggest this "should" comply. I also need to state my research is at a level I'll call a 1st approximation. I can't make fact out of all of these locations. We can't even deal with one related name Iberia, of even the name Siberia, which I contend Strabo has helped us on. We can't even agree that the Caucasus Iberians are the same as Spain Iberians. And, DNA can't answer this either, so it seems.

So please understand that I don't lean on DNA, nor think DNA to be a mature science, at this point in time. However, I find no issue with my personal DNA test and would suggest its conformal to my hard, and soft data which I'm currently aware of. The problem is just that. I believe I can show these relationships, even to a surname, as preserved. I believe I can trace this tribe name to Bohemia from any direction, North, South, East, or West. Another reason I attempted to use DNA to trace my path more discretely. DNA hasn't really provided this, but does have me as a WEST Bohemian, consistant with death certificate - of Bohemia for my great-great grandfather, but I believe allows me to adjust to an Etruscan route, and Danube pathway to Bohemia, from Balkan regions, as opposed to Baltic regions. I reasonably comfortable with this, my historical data, and a Slavic proto-territory. Most probable is the Romanian Buri tribe.

Another Burian "Austro-Bohemian" (Richard, T. ) claims his noble was traced bace a millenium and that this name came from St. Buryan chuch name of Corwall England, and were exiled to France in 1066 "Battle of Hastings" which the Normans won. They already held France at this time, so his story has merit. So why would this name have a "y" in the current spelling, in place today sas such, in Cornwall, which was also called Burrington (or Burington).

The only logical way I have to describe the meaning, and distribution of this tribe name is to elevate it as a deity. This is making more sense, to me, but I can't possibly research all the locational points as it requires a lot of time to make progress, and back up findings. These blogs can accelerate the research, and cover a broader baseline. I decided to give my theory a name "Grand Global Genome" or "GGG" so others can understand the tribal name I'm dealing with, than see how it may fit into other research theories, or perhaps open new avenues for inquiry. I have also fashioned some form of logic such as wolf tribe and dogs, and other factors, to actually have some context to associate to some tribal migrations, dates and epochs, and linguistics with culture, to suggest this event likely has occured, and thes are the actual players involved. My current snag is the tribe of Benjamin. I'm actually building in more data, and may be able to pool this tribal name into a Buryan-Siberian-Iberian envelope. Tough call, and who would believe me anyway?

This requires a whole lot of matched data and forensics, and likely a few experts to elavate the concept. Then requires a second level of investigation target to the underlying theory, and a 3rd level through all achedemia before one could make a claim of "FACT". History is very nasty to this end, and "ALL" data has to comply.

I'm not making this "fact" claim, so we can be clear here. I'm at the "new idea" level, but not without my resources to make the case. I'm not blind driving. I think this tribe deserves more attention by historians, of which I'm not, but I started this project in 1973, before an Internet was available, and I may know more about this particular tribe than most people today. I want others to reflect into my findings to see if there is either a yes/no that they may know about a region, and with some evidence to either support, or not support these notions. The case is stacking in my favor, I think.

A better question is this; what tribal name is ancient enough, and that I may be able to trace around the globe, and at what dates did this tribe form and originate, and a what date did they meet later, as each others own relatives, thus circum-navigating the globe into all continents. Our current date is 1492 AD Columbus (likely a Ligurian Burjan in my opinion), as well. I think a Buryan tribe Siberia can trump this date, but would require proofs and dates. Thaere arn't many old tribal names to choose from the way I see it. This part is just fallout from my other tracing to Bohemia, but is worth thinking about.

I hope everyone groups the tribe as a GGG concept, then keeps this in mind as you do your other research, and you may find this shows up in various regions, and/or targeted studies. It gets quite complex, but I use some baseline factors to stay on track, as I've suggest in some of these blogs. This research, and tribe name is pretty much open ended, You can't look this stuff up, and read about them as you would Greeks, or Egyptians. If correct about the mountain deity part, I think we can understand better, how this naming became common such as Alp, or Bury, and nobody makes a claim Bury=Buri (a Norse deity in roots). Seriously difficult question, actually? Avebury as Abiri (in Hebrew) gets closer to this, but requires more work yet, to follow the trace into Levant regions.

Anyway, I hope this may clarify why I do what I do. Again, I wish to depersonalize this tribal name because I think it leads to many things not of my personal roots, and in a public domain. Also, I hate to say this, but a lot of Europeans would be related to this tribe, if not by surname, but by DNA. So Abremelin, you could also come from this tribe as R1a1, too. In Holland try Beierjnland, and/or the town Buren. I wonder what your surname may be. Reference 8th American president Martin Van Buren. Martin was the first American president born on American soil. He was Dutch, and his coat of arms has a dog. He should be R1a1, in my opinion. It's in his surname. Would you agree? Good question, aye? Was Berlin actually Berjlin. What about that? What about Odin and Thor, and who wrote these myths? And Fir Bolg?

The Spain dog would be a greyhound, and is also in Egypt. Is this greyhound of Iberian folks? Berbers? Libyans?

Martin Van Burens crest dog could be a greyhound perhaps. Just a thought. Do dog coats of arms and crest originate from "wolf tribes" - in Europe?

More later, and don't worry about the DNA so much, I think they will catch up, but later in time. DNA doesn't give us names, but attempts to trace tribe names, therein ethos, but is quite messy yet to dechipher results. DNA people need historians, and both should be compliant to that end. Things should fall into place with all forensics. All historical studies are fair play including mine, and the ctitique that comes with it. I just want to stick to hard data, and a showing of evidence for someone to make a case. I don't see myself as exempt, and will answer any questions to the degree I can, whether its my GGG theory, or any others. Good question though, and I hope I use the "in my opinion" wording, or as "I would suggest" and not to mislead any readers. Of course. I have my personal beliefs on this too, which I'm attempting to collect more data on. Some bloggers have given me very good and usable suggestions as well. We just need to consider the historical landscape, and try to get it right. I think some of this is solvable as surnames, some, maybe not. As fantastic as some of this seems, I'm past that now, the ego thing. I'm not surprised at any of this anymore, even though the outcome seems to go down a path I hadn't realized originally, I try to follow the data wherever, and however the outcome reads. In spite of your grandeur statement, you may recall in this blog, I said they could even have been "slaves" in England. Not so glamorous after-all. Baybar ruled Egypt and is a Bashkir-Buryan, but came to Egypt as a Syrian slave. A slave can be a "great" person, too. See Mamluk dynasty of Egypt. GGG guy.

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So, alot of verbiage to say you're making it up as you go along and you don't really understand what genetics currently can and does tell us. On that I can agree, as you've shown no evidence that surnames (and yours specifically) are relevant to DNA studies or human DNA migrational patterns. Regardless of what YOUR DNA test results were, they can't be equated on a 1-for-1 basis with any specific peoples from several millenia ago. At best that argument can only work as far back as you can verify your specific surname and no further.

cormac

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other than lego linguistics he doesnt have anything to offer.

seriously. his attempt at linking his surname to kubera is , to be frank, laughable.

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Posted (edited)

I am completely open to any ideas as to where present day Avebury got its name.

I am quite interested in the name Aveberia (from 1180 as you mention). There is a definite connotation with Iberia there, but that may just be my own thoughts. If the Domesday Book relates to the name of "Aureburie" then it brings us , perhaps, a little closer. Because the "e" at the end is actually pronounced as a separate vowel.An "a" sound.

I am quite sure that no definitive answer is possible however, but interesting to try..

OK, I'll have a go.

How about Avenue of the Barrows (basically).

Ave or even Aue imo could be AVENUE, we shorten Avenue to Ave in an address say, so checked it out and Avebury is built accordingly to an Avenue plan. Carnac stones imo could be called avenues, rows of stones.

The Avenue

The stone avenue.

The West Kennet Avenue, an avenue of paired stones, leads from the southeastern entrance of the henge; and traces of a second, the Beckhampton Avenue, lead out from the western entrance.[citation needed]

The archaeologist Aaron Watson, taking a phenomenological viewpoint to the monument, believed that the way in which the Avenue had been constructed in juxtaposition to Avebury, the Sanctuary, Silbury Hill and West Kennet Long Barrow had been intentional, commenting that "the Avenue carefully orchestrated passage through the landscape which influenced how people could move and what they could see, emphasizing connections between places and maximizing the spectacle of moving between these monuments."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avebury

Avenue might not work into an ancient Briton language though - coming from French and Latin, but who knows really, maybe the Romans took it home with them from England...

Here's another one:

ave "hail," also "farewell," early 13c. (in reference to the Ave Maria), from L. ave, 2nd person singular imperative of avere "to be or fare well."

A farewell burial (guard/preservation rite).

Bury comes from bury as in preserve, protect (the dead).

bury O.E. byrgan "to raise a mound, hide, bury, inter," akin to beorgan "to shelter," from P.Gmc. *burzjanan "protection, shelter" (cf. O.N. bjarga, Swed. berga, Ger. bergen, Goth. bairgan "to save, preserve"), from PIE root *bhergh- "protect, preserve" (cf. O.C.S. brego "I preserve, guard").

The suffix -bury in English may be from later burgh. But Avebury may be bury as in grave (above).

Edited by The Puzzler

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Avebury seems to be name that is representative of the town Avebury and doesn't seem like it was named by the people who built Avebury - so the name Auebury or deritaves and Avebury might be: 'bird town' - the town of Avebury might have been so named for the simple reason there was lots of birds. Av and au is both bird related forms. (eg:aviary and augury)

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Posted (edited)

Or if it is Basque maybe it's relative to:

agur The universal Basque salutation, equivalent to Latin ave. In the French Basque Country, it is used for both `hello' and `good-bye'; in the south, it is now confined to `good-bye', with kaixo now being preferred for `hello'. The word is thought to derive from *agurium, an unrecorded variant of Latin augurium `omen'.

= to Latin ave = good-bye

berri is new

a departing for the new life..?

Intriguing.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Spartan, good question. What does India have to do with a Bohemian, as myself, let alone a god called Kubera? We must consider the linguistic model wherein Europe speaks IE languages, in general. So your term as "laughable" seems to me to be weak in logic from the get-go.

However, instead of allowing myself to fall prey to an unstudied observer, I'll instead provide you some text from: the Journal of the American Oriental Society, Volume 33, E W Hawkins, and go to page 55 for Kubera related gods. In addition, you'll find that both the source people tribe name, and their location in India is given therein on page 66. That is - the Hyperboreans - at Kuras respectively.

Journal of the American Oriental Society - Google Books

I would suggest Spartan that one should be more careful as to what, or who may be - to use your term - laughable. I would suggest you read this chapter a few times as its difficult to take in, especially if your a Westerner, as myself. Kubera has been studied by academia though - if - you know where, and how to look for it, and thank god for the Internet, and the fact this is actually in English. I don't necessarily agree with all statements in this book, but this chapter is perfect for the question at hand, as a starting point to spring from, and, way ahead of me on understanding some basic parts of ancient India religions.

I believe this location is perfect for my model, and, if I'm correct, with the notion Hyperboreans are also the very same Buryans and Burjans (Arabic). Note also that the Greek "extreme North" definition is perceived the very same way in India, for these same people, so it seems. Hyperboreans were also on the Volga River, and likely p/o my last blog on this Volga River location. They are in Po Valley, and Lake Van kingdoms. Please don't ask for all of this text as its hard for me to find in my archeive.

I hope this gets to the point Spartan, and others who read this. Can they also be Iberian people of Spain? I'm more comfortable myself if the stones, and dolmens can be included. Otherwise the answer is yes, but after the Iron Age, as most of my current research on this particular tribe would suggest, and including the Etruscans, which I have as my personal "best fit" for my surname, in Bohemia, and as an IE language, and the Iron Age date at~1200BC in Europe. My R1a1 test has my ancestors in Central Europe at 1500BC +/- 350 years, for what its worth herein.

Anyway, I'm a skeptic too, but not blind, a skeptic with data. Thanks for the interest. I don't believe we can get at Avebury, Ave, or Bury so easily using linguistics. I'm attempting to suggest some of these locational name relative to stone artifacts (of any ancient variety) can maybe tell us more if a tribes better known religeous practice is understood, and then applied to the actual locations, and what is currently known about them, being either real facts, or folklore type myths. I think all known data is fair play, and what matters is how the data is weighted for merit. I hope my attachment will raise visability, even if it seems so damned awkward. I try to follow the data, not read into it, or direct it. One has to be highly receptive and fleable, and I'm willing to modify my base line model - if evidence warrants this. As for Kubera in India, this book attached is I think reasonably reliable, and I haven't double-check Hawkins analysis yet. I could spend many hours on this location given, as I already have. I take this text on face value right now. I also have an issue as to a time period for what he claims in the region, but can go back to the fertile crescent dates, as perhaps proto-Iberians, Scythians, Aryans, and Sumerians. My current model would have this sort of nitch concerning the Pamir Knot, and the passages into India from Northern tribes, I contend includes Siberian Buryans.

I also found some past notes that in Iberian, "Ca" can mean "dog". You may recall I suggested Ka means wolf (Turkish). Egyptian Ka, as Spirit/Soul. I've gathered these translations, and I would have to re-target, and try to cross verify these examples. It appears the real answer may be surfacing.

I hope you give me some feedback Spartan, and, whether or not you could be persuaded to re-think your previous comment. Or, perhaps you can tell me where "Borea" lies on the map, irespectful whether or not my surname has anything to do with these tribal names. Note the "aerocar" in the text. He tells us the name of the space aliens in India, doesn't he? Were they reptilian? Borean folks with god Kubera apparently had the fastest aerocar. Does this matter?

Thanks for the feedback, and I hope this rings some additional bells, GGG guy.

PS, any comments to the Egyptian ring-stones I previously attached?

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Thanks for all the posts, GGG, you are certainly on a mission, I will see what I can add that might be of interest but for now I want to get back on track and rehash this info I found, from my own post:

What I did notice after grouping the haplogroups of the Bronze Age cultures on the previous map I linked for Slim is this:

At 3800-3600BC these haplogroups were part of these 3 groups:

I, I2, I2a and E-V13 were all in:

Bell Beaker & Megalithic Culture

Cardium Pottery

Helladic Greece

So, all over Europe and into Greece as a megalith building type of culture who all possessed a similar genetic makeup in many ways, imo, a Balkan developed I male line, into Europe and also into Greece via Albania.

I also read that a connection can be made from the Varna culture (Vinca) to a pre-Sesklo culture in Thessaly. I once suspected before a very early culture in Thessaly that spread out. An article I read (I'll find it) said it was likely that Thessaly was the start point for the spread of agriculture throughout Europe.

Iolcus is there and Jason and the Argonauts all sailed from Thessaly, Achilles was from Thessaly because his father Peleus also was, Mt Olympus is right there, in the North of Thessaly, Larissa the capital is not a Greek name and I found coins once with men leaping bulls on them from Thessaly. They seem to have a definite Crete connection and may have even been the first settlers on Crete itself c. 6000BC.

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I also found some past notes that in Iberian, "Ca" can mean "dog". You may recall I suggested Ka means wolf (Turkish). Egyptian Ka, as Spirit/Soul. I've gathered these translations, and I would have to re-target, and try to cross verify these examples. It appears the real answer may be surfacing.

Have you checked out the Canary Islands, ca in canary is ca/canine so I can see how ca could mean dog. They have dogs on their coat of arms and ancient myths about black dogs in the caves, worshipping a dog god like Anubis - maybe a wolf connection, I haven't followed it through that much on a wolf level.

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This post caught my attention since I am of Basque descent. I've read a few books on Basque history and genealogy and there are so many theories as to where the Basques came from and where their language comes from. I am no scholar and, although I wish I had the time and resources, I am no Basque historian. What I can tell you is that there is so many similarities between Basque culture and Greek culture. Their national symbol the lauburu is a Greek symbol, their music is more similar to Meditteranean music than its French and Spanish neighbors. I know French and English and a little bit of Basque, I don't know any Greek or Ancient Greek/Meditteranean language, however some of the words just 'sound' Greek. I've read about theories that we were Spartans or Trojans or even Icelandic, whatever the case may be the Basques have a very unique culture.

Also, another reason I really do believe we are of some Greek or ancient Meditteranean descent is because of their myths and legends. The stories and names of their gods are, in some cases, eerily similar. The Basques arguably held on to their pagan beliefs longer than most of Europe and it is plain to see they were much more similar to other Meditteranean peoples, not the French or Spanish. My grandmother also was a sort of closet historian and she believed we were more Greek than anything. Talk to any proud Basque American or native and they will agree, they don't consider their culture (food, festivals ,mythology, customs, ceremonies) to be linked in anyway to France or Spain. In fact, France and Spain borrowed many aspects of their culture from the Basques (i.e., the beret).

The origins of the Basque people may forever remain a mystery and overshadowed by France and Spain. I think real, extensive research needs to be done in Basque country and they need to talk to the native people who still speak Euskara.

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Posted (edited)

This post caught my attention since I am of Basque descent. I've read a few books on Basque history and genealogy and there are so many theories as to where the Basques came from and where their language comes from. I am no scholar and, although I wish I had the time and resources, I am no Basque historian. What I can tell you is that there is so many similarities between Basque culture and Greek culture. Their national symbol the lauburu is a Greek symbol, their music is more similar to Meditteranean music than its French and Spanish neighbors. I know French and English and a little bit of Basque, I don't know any Greek or Ancient Greek/Meditteranean language, however some of the words just 'sound' Greek. I've read about theories that we were Spartans or Trojans or even Icelandic, whatever the case may be the Basques have a very unique culture.

Also, another reason I really do believe we are of some Greek or ancient Meditteranean descent is because of their myths and legends. The stories and names of their gods are, in some cases, eerily similar. The Basques arguably held on to their pagan beliefs longer than most of Europe and it is plain to see they were much more similar to other Meditteranean peoples, not the French or Spanish. My grandmother also was a sort of closet historian and she believed we were more Greek than anything. Talk to any proud Basque American or native and they will agree, they don't consider their culture (food, festivals ,mythology, customs, ceremonies) to be linked in anyway to France or Spain. In fact, France and Spain borrowed many aspects of their culture from the Basques (i.e., the beret).

The origins of the Basque people may forever remain a mystery and overshadowed by France and Spain. I think real, extensive research needs to be done in Basque country and they need to talk to the native people who still speak Euskara.

Thanks for that, interesting you have Basque ancestry.

Aquitanian.

The Aquitani (Latin for Aquitanians) were a people living in what is now Aquitaine, France, in the region between the Pyrenees, the Atlantic ocean and the Garonne. Julius Cæsar, who defeated them in his campaign in Gaul, describes them as making up a distinct part of Gaul:

All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgæ inhabit, the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called Celts, in our Gauls, the third. All these differ from each other in language, customs and laws. The river Garonne separates the Gauls from the Aquitani[1]

Despite apparent cultural connections to Iberia, the area of Aquitania, as a part of Gaul ended at the Pyrenees according to Cæsar:

Aquitania extends from the river Garonne to the Pyrenæan mountains and to that part of the ocean which is near Spain: it looks between the setting of the sun, and the north star.[2]

The presence of what seem to be names of deities or people in late Romano-Aquitanian funerary slabs similar to modern Basque have led many philologists and linguists to conclude that Aquitanian was closely related to an older form of Basque.[3] The fact that the region was known as Vasconia in the Early Middle Ages, a name that evolved into the better known form of Gascony, along with other toponymic evidence, seems to corroborate that assumption.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquitani

The form of aq/ak is very old and can be found on Linear B tablets, it's a form of a word I see everywhere, from axe to water, it might be an original Basque/Aquitani word form imo. Caesar informs us their language is not the same as Celtic or the Belgae language.

The area of the Aquitani is an area anciently inhabited by original European cave painters and Cro-Magnon - obviously the people are very ancient Europeans, whatever male DNA haplogroups came in to their area, the original people would have been old Europeans in any case and very capable of migrating around the Mediterranean Sea.

I think ak in Basque is male goat, but I'd have to check that one.

This is one of the recorded Aquitani tribes:

Elusates in the northeast around Eauze (former Elusa)

Sounds alot like Eleusis to me, like in Greece, where the Mother Goddess Demeter cult was, the war of Eleusis was the pre-cursor to the overthrow of Poseidon by vote whereby Athena takes control of Athens - my own opinion is the War of Eleusis might be considered to be the threat on Greece by Atlanteans, Plato does mention some names of the men in this Atlantean war and they can be found also participating in the Eleusian War. So, considering all that - Eleusis could even be a town that was settled by Western European Basques/Aquitani. The whole episode is lost in mythical telling but underneath it points to an ancient people in Greece (Eleusis) that worshipped the Mother, who was taken over by the Athenians.

Another is:

Boiates probably around Arcachon Bay and norwest of Landes département

In relation to Eleusis, this word sounds alot like Boeotia - a Theban realm - an early mythical Phoenician realm.

Edit:

ak as male goat

I'm afraid Aherbelst- has nothing to with harri 'stone' but to ak(h)er 'male goat'.

ReplyDelete

JasonAug 11, 2011 06:13 AM

Indeed. It is the name of a Basque divinity: Akerbeltz (also called Akelarre) protects against illnesses and evil spirits, and cures animals placed under his protection. He is represented in the form of a black goat.

http://discovergascony.blogspot.com.au/2010/12/la-vallee-de-larboust-comminges.html

Considering that Pan is very old in Greece and also Egypt (apparently, according to Herodotus) and the goat is a very potent symbol throughout Europe is imo very interesting.

Aquitani could mean the goat people, those who inhabited the mountains...

Edited by The Puzzler

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GGG:

About ka as spirit in Egyptian - an interesting parallel I found was in Saami mythology where the ahka is the first female spirit. All names of the female spirits have this ending as well, to denote a female spirit in them

Maadteraahka, Raedieahka etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_shamanism

Saami and Berbers share an ancient V and U5b maternal haplogroup.

common paternal lineage among the Sami indicates an Asian origin, who may represent a Uralic-speaking people

That again, shows how the maternal lines are very old European with incoming males being predominatly Asiatics. To me, this would be most logical and it would be mostly men who moved around, either as warrior groups, hunting, building megaliths or looking for better lands etc that ingrained into (a matriarchal) Western Europe.

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Spartan, good question. What does India have to do with a Bohemian, as myself, let alone a god called Kubera? We must consider the linguistic model wherein Europe speaks IE languages, in general. So your term as "laughable" seems to me to be weak in logic from the get-go.

However, instead of allowing myself to fall prey to an unstudied observer, I'll instead provide you some text from: the Journal of the American Oriental Society, Volume 33, E W Hawkins, and go to page 55 for Kubera related gods. In addition, you'll find that both the source people tribe name, and their location in India is given therein on page 66. That is - the Hyperboreans - at Kuras respectively.

Journal of the American Oriental Society - Google Books

I would suggest Spartan that one should be more careful as to what, or who may be - to use your term - laughable. I would suggest you read this chapter a few times as its difficult to take in, especially if your a Westerner, as myself. Kubera has been studied by academia though - if - you know where, and how to look for it, and thank god for the Internet, and the fact this is actually in English. I don't necessarily agree with all statements in this book, but this chapter is perfect for the question at hand, as a starting point to spring from, and, way ahead of me on understanding some basic parts of ancient India religions.

I believe this location is perfect for my model, and, if I'm correct, with the notion Hyperboreans are also the very same Buryans and Burjans (Arabic). Note also that the Greek "extreme North" definition is perceived the very same way in India, for these same people, so it seems. Hyperboreans were also on the Volga River, and likely p/o my last blog on this Volga River location. They are in Po Valley, and Lake Van kingdoms. Please don't ask for all of this text as its hard for me to find in my archeive.

I hope this gets to the point Spartan, and others who read this. Can they also be Iberian people of Spain? I'm more comfortable myself if the stones, and dolmens can be included. Otherwise the answer is yes, but after the Iron Age, as most of my current research on this particular tribe would suggest, and including the Etruscans, which I have as my personal "best fit" for my surname, in Bohemia, and as an IE language, and the Iron Age date at~1200BC in Europe. My R1a1 test has my ancestors in Central Europe at 1500BC +/- 350 years, for what its worth herein.

Anyway, I'm a skeptic too, but not blind, a skeptic with data. Thanks for the interest. I don't believe we can get at Avebury, Ave, or Bury so easily using linguistics. I'm attempting to suggest some of these locational name relative to stone artifacts (of any ancient variety) can maybe tell us more if a tribes better known religeous practice is understood, and then applied to the actual locations, and what is currently known about them, being either real facts, or folklore type myths. I think all known data is fair play, and what matters is how the data is weighted for merit. I hope my attachment will raise visability, even if it seems so damned awkward. I try to follow the data, not read into it, or direct it. One has to be highly receptive and fleable, and I'm willing to modify my base line model - if evidence warrants this. As for Kubera in India, this book attached is I think reasonably reliable, and I haven't double-check Hawkins analysis yet. I could spend many hours on this location given, as I already have. I take this text on face value right now. I also have an issue as to a time period for what he claims in the region, but can go back to the fertile crescent dates, as perhaps proto-Iberians, Scythians, Aryans, and Sumerians. My current model would have this sort of nitch concerning the Pamir Knot, and the passages into India from Northern tribes, I contend includes Siberian Buryans.

I also found some past notes that in Iberian, "Ca" can mean "dog". You may recall I suggested Ka means wolf (Turkish). Egyptian Ka, as Spirit/Soul. I've gathered these translations, and I would have to re-target, and try to cross verify these examples. It appears the real answer may be surfacing.

I hope you give me some feedback Spartan, and, whether or not you could be persuaded to re-think your previous comment. Or, perhaps you can tell me where "Borea" lies on the map, irespectful whether or not my surname has anything to do with these tribal names. Note the "aerocar" in the text. He tells us the name of the space aliens in India, doesn't he? Were they reptilian? Borean folks with god Kubera apparently had the fastest aerocar. Does this matter?

Thanks for the feedback, and I hope this rings some additional bells, GGG guy.

PS, any comments to the Egyptian ring-stones I previously attached?

Firstly, it should be acknowledged (and has been in the past) that linguistics is not one of my personal specialities. However, having formally studied and utilized three languages in addition to my "mother tongue', do have at least a modicum of understanding in regards to the topic.

The reference supplied above was written in 1913. One may reasonably speculate that more recent research has modified the positions expressed.

As to linguistic divergence, the following may be of assistance:

http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/language.html

https://segue.atlas.uiuc.edu/index.php?&action=site&site=khope2&section=4436&page=14866&story=16485&detail=16485

As you can observe, relevant divergences occurred at quite an early stage. Then one must take into account the genetic, cultural, and archaeological factors.

One may wish to avoid being beguiled by the aptly termed "Lego-linguistics" factor. A proper study of linguistics entails a great deal more than "sounds like" . Syntax, etc. For an introduction to the complexities of the field, you may find the following to be of use:

http://www.ielanguages.com/linguist.html

Lastly, it may also be speculated that Spartan will be able to quite adroitly address some of your potential misunderstandings.

.

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I'll try to address a few of the questions. For Thessaly I'll add a couple more coins, and to deal with the blog about the Trojans, I'll attach a similar coin. Coins of this era, I belive originate as currency in or around Lydia at ~600-800 BC, and their rich gold deposits, mostly water borne river type gold, where, King Midas touched this river to break the spell cast on him in the parable, and the river turned to gold. South of Troy, as such, and perhaps some of Trojan warriors, if one can believe the "real" Troy was in W. Anatolia, and the Trojan War actually occurred. I a bit of a skeptic yet on this particular set of questions, and, Wilkins Trojan War in England theory.

post-110550-0-44208800-1330672730_thumb.

post-110550-0-54828400-1330672810_thumb.

For the Saami I can only add Bjarmaland on the White Sea as a probable Buri god, Burjan tribe, or Siberian Buryan shaman tribe as you describe, and for Norse myths, especially Thor. The Saami religion with repect to mountains would mimic my descriptions and a Siberian god "Tengra" mimics this religion. I believe a Siberian shaman uses 10 or 12 stars around their headband, and 12-stars is also Thor's symbol, if I have this right. The Central Asian connection is workable, and I believe these Eastern folks used a land route by the Caucasus regions (aka Volga River), or perhaps a Northern Sea route North of Siberia, and perhaps to America and Alaska (They called Turtle Island, or as Inuits, and the Inuk language). I can also trace to Central Asian proto-Turk affiliates, and their she-wolf goddess Asena (Ashina, and other spellings), that in some definitions, exhibits a blue mane.

I'll attach a Siberian or Mongolian stack of rocks called an ovoo by them. Note the wolf.

post-110550-0-54458100-1330673609_thumb.

post-110550-0-27069900-1330673865_thumb.

These are the only images I've seen of any ovoo that exibits a wolf skin or hide. I don't think this is so common, and the scale size of this ovoo suggests its an important location either by ceremony, or special crossroads location. Burkhan Khaldun translates as "Gods Mountain". Any ovoo on this mountain is very special. That kind of says it straight, and clear. This is in restricted Mongolian forest (requires special pass), and is Genghis Khans creation, and note he had a wolf nickname, but I don't know what it was. He grew up at lake Baikal and its sacred "Shamans Rock" at Cape Burkhan (Burjan). Russian diplomats toast to the god Burjan when touring through this region at Lake Baikal, according to Russian news print.

I see no issues with Saami and their religion, and I think Bjaramaland is a correct connection to my tribe in question in the N. Norway, White Sea region. I can't however accurately place a date on these names in Norway, if my approximations are correct. I estimate between 2-3,000 BC, and connect to Egypt to allow a Norse Audumia (cow from the land of fire) along this time line, as a minimum, but, could be older yet. This is my conservative estimate, or target for now.

I'll attach two web pages to deal with the attachment and map showing their respective "Aquitani Gaul" region. Note of this wiki map, just south of Basque they printed "Celtiberians, and Berones", likely Eburones in Belgium. On the other side of this Basque region is the port Quiberon. This is right next to Carnac stone constructions.

Carnac - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quiberon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If we take the etymology of the spellings from these two web pages we would get the follow results, if we defined Ca, or Ka, to mean either spirit/soul, or wolf/dog;

Carnac is shown as Karnag. Quiberon is shown as Kiberen (in Brittany).

Carnac would be Ka Rnag, or to mean dog god Rnoa, or the dog god Ka, of the Rnag people.

Keberen I see as Kabeiros, and being a sea god, makes sence as this is a port location. It could be I Beren, or Qui=Ka=Ca. Iberian was my first approximation. However, as in Kabeiros, I would default to say it means the spirit/soul of the Beren people. I think Kabeiros comes from a Burjan tribe anyway, for this very reason. Otherwise, it could also translate as the spirit/soul, of a Earth god named Beren, and he would live at the top of a mountain, per the presumptive shaman definitions we've discussed. In this second defintion, the real meaning would get lost through time, and than we would think Beren means mountain, in this way, and not realize any religious overtones, gods, or sacred ore, if we happen to be amodern miner. Ore is ultra-sacred up until about the time of the Dark Ages in Europe. If I could be realistic, this is what I think actually happened, in lieu of this same tribe and people moving around the planet everywhere. The name must have become deified to explain these nuances.

This is clear to me, that a Buryan/Burjan type tribe in Basque regions are not Basque people, but likely on all other sides of the Basque region. Also, as I've stated, A "v", would be Phoenician Cretan syntax, and if a "b", likely more Trojan, in my opinion.

Across from Mt. Olympus in Thessaly, is Mt. Bermion, and Berea (in the Bible) called Veria today. We know lots about Olympus, and the Hyperborean Zeus who ruled it, but nothing of the Bermion Mt. The Verian Star symbol on the Greek flag originates here (16-pointed star), and was on Alexander the Great's fathers casket dug up here in otherwise Macedonia. Macedonians speak Greek, and are very much the same as Greeks, but yet Greece is multi-ethnic. Berea dates to ~1000 BC, but I may be able to push this date backward in this region for my key tribe, but at another location perhaps nearby. I think the name Veria reflects Phoencian.

Recall I stated the other author stating Avebury is Abiri (Hebrews) and they would be Phoenician Barats, and suggested Brittany from Barat.

I don't think I can argue about his version of Brittany, even if we through Avebury out the window for now.

On the Canary Isle question, Ca Nary would be the wolf god named Nary (nari), or a wolf god of the tribe Nary. A mountain or cave name here may relate to such a gods name, perhaps. Or, it could be the spirit/soul of Nary the god, unrelated to wolf/dog animism tamga. However, if I was looking for my wolf tribe in this region, I would go on shore to Liberia, or Li Beria. I haven't actually studied this avenue much yet, but I think ther is a mega womans image cut into the face rock on a mountain in this region. If I could assimilate something here, perhaps I could go offshore from this mainland springboard. Don't know.

However, canary is a bird, and it was suggest that Avebury could just have lots of birds, and this then means Avery. If using Phoenician Cretan syntax, then Avery becomes Abiry, the original definition I started with, as Abiri (Hebrew). Funny how that works. So then which version of this name was first? Who were they Buryans/Burjans (Hyperboreans) or Phoencians? I still say they were two different ethos, shared Crete and Lebanon, and were trading partners. I could just claim Phonecians, where other reading suggest they were Yakuts, Buryats, Siberians....etc. I still don't believe this, and never did, but I may need to sharpen my pencil.

Thanks for the tips, and I think we are beginning to see why I have the theory I have devised as Grand Global Genome, or GGG theory.

Along this line I'll attach one more paper that attempts to connect Spain (Iberians) to America, across the Atlantic at ~20,000 BC. Perfect paper for me because they use the name Iberian. Aye? On the other hand, they also downgrade a Siberian Bering Sea route. I would claim they could both be the same people, especially if you call them Iberians (in Spain). This is what Strabo claims; Siberian Buryats are the same as the Iberians of Spain.

Who were the first Americans? - The Washington Post

The blade found matches Iberian Spain type hardware I guess. Interesting study, but I don't have an opinion yet on their findings, but perfect for my GGG modeling, none-the-less.

I have yet more stones, but need more time. Thanks for the Saami gods info, and the symbol. These symbols are difficult to track down. I feel quite comfortable with the Bjarmaland location and perhaps my one tribe left a little dent here, if true, as I claim. I have to force myself into thinking Sibero-Mongol shamanism, then, I think I can make progress in Europe locations for this tribe anyway. The logic isn't so terrible, but the global linguistics is. The word Avebury is the perfect example. Thats why I use the phrase "Avenue of Burians" in jest. I have absolutly no good reason not to believe this phrase, but many reasons to believe it. Lets not get to hung up on this, because I will attempt they were all Apollo worshipers using different methodology. Then we can pick the correct "winning door" from the wide assortment of possibilities. I think the Benjamin tribe may be the correct Levant part. I say this because of the cave called Kebera on Mt Carmel. Everthing about an early Benjamin tribe I think fit their Northern regions, their oracle at En Dor, and the fact they are both archers, and a wolf tribe, and because St. Paul was a Benjamite, and in Thessaly, he fled to Berea where they hid him from the mob. the people of Berea should be his own root tribe, if I'm correct. The Bible claims in Berea they would at least consider Paul's phrophecy which he was elated about, as reported in the book of Acts in the Bible. Berea could be the first Hellenized Greeks, in theory. Alexander the Great could have brought this name to India, because the name Burjan is part of his pedigree. This could play into India date line, so I need to be careful on this name in India, and allow for this possibility, depending on era involved. We can't be too naive, if we sample these various regions, and leave such factors off the table. My migration trail is full of pit-falls for my key tribe. No small choir!!!

Great fun, GGG guy. Your all keeping me busy.

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I'll try to address a few of the questions. For Thessaly I'll add a couple more coins, and to deal with the blog about the Trojans, I'll attach a similar coin. Coins of this era, I belive originate as currency in or around Lydia at ~600-800 BC, and their rich gold deposits, mostly water borne river type gold, where, King Midas touched this river to break the spell cast on him in the parable, and the river turned to gold. South of Troy, as such, and perhaps some of Trojan warriors, if one can believe the "real" Troy was in W. Anatolia, and the Trojan War actually occurred. I a bit of a skeptic yet on this particular set of questions, and, Wilkins Trojan War in England theory.

post-110550-0-44208800-1330672730_thumb.

post-110550-0-54828400-1330672810_thumb.

For the Saami I can only add Bjarmaland on the White Sea as a probable Buri god, Burjan tribe, or Siberian Buryan shaman tribe as you describe, and for Norse myths, especially Thor. The Saami religion with repect to mountains would mimic my descriptions and a Siberian god "Tengra" mimics this religion. I believe a Siberian shaman uses 10 or 12 stars around their headband, and 12-stars is also Thor's symbol, if I have this right. The Central Asian connection is workable, and I believe these Eastern folks used a land route by the Caucasus regions (aka Volga River), or perhaps a Northern Sea route North of Siberia, and perhaps to America and Alaska (They called Turtle Island, or as Inuits, and the Inuk language). I can also trace to Central Asian proto-Turk affiliates, and their she-wolf goddess Asena (Ashina, and other spellings), that in some definitions, exhibits a blue mane.

I'll attach a Siberian or Mongolian stack of rocks called an ovoo by them. Note the wolf.

post-110550-0-54458100-1330673609_thumb.

post-110550-0-27069900-1330673865_thumb.

These are the only images I've seen of any ovoo that exibits a wolf skin or hide. I don't think this is so common, and the scale size of this ovoo suggests its an important location either by ceremony, or special crossroads location. Burkhan Khaldun translates as "Gods Mountain". Any ovoo on this mountain is very special. That kind of says it straight, and clear. This is in restricted Mongolian forest (requires special pass), and is Genghis Khans creation, and note he had a wolf nickname, but I don't know what it was. He grew up at lake Baikal and its sacred "Shamans Rock" at Cape Burkhan (Burjan). Russian diplomats toast to the god Burjan when touring through this region at Lake Baikal, according to Russian news print.

I see no issues with Saami and their religion, and I think Bjaramaland is a correct connection to my tribe in question in the N. Norway, White Sea region. I can't however accurately place a date on these names in Norway, if my approximations are correct. I estimate between 2-3,000 BC, and connect to Egypt to allow a Norse Audumia (cow from the land of fire) along this time line, as a minimum, but, could be older yet. This is my conservative estimate, or target for now.

I'll attach two web pages to deal with the attachment and map showing their respective "Aquitani Gaul" region. Note of this wiki map, just south of Basque they printed "Celtiberians, and Berones", likely Eburones in Belgium. On the other side of this Basque region is the port Quiberon. This is right next to Carnac stone constructions.

Carnac - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quiberon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If we take the etymology of the spellings from these two web pages we would get the follow results, if we defined Ca, or Ka, to mean either spirit/soul, or wolf/dog;

Carnac is shown as Karnag. Quiberon is shown as Kiberen (in Brittany).

Carnac would be Ka Rnag, or to mean dog god Rnoa, or the dog god Ka, of the Rnag people.

Keberen I see as Kabeiros, and being a sea god, makes sence as this is a port location. It could be I Beren, or Qui=Ka=Ca. Iberian was my first approximation. However, as in Kabeiros, I would default to say it means the spirit/soul of the Beren people. I think Kabeiros comes from a Burjan tribe anyway, for this very reason. Otherwise, it could also translate as the spirit/soul, of a Earth god named Beren, and he would live at the top of a mountain, per the presumptive shaman definitions we've discussed. In this second defintion, the real meaning would get lost through time, and than we would think Beren means mountain, in this way, and not realize any religious overtones, gods, or sacred ore, if we happen to be amodern miner. Ore is ultra-sacred up until about the time of the Dark Ages in Europe. If I could be realistic, this is what I think actually happened, in lieu of this same tribe and people moving around the planet everywhere. The name must have become deified to explain these nuances.

This is clear to me, that a Buryan/Burjan type tribe in Basque regions are not Basque people, but likely on all other sides of the Basque region. Also, as I've stated, A "v", would be Phoenician Cretan syntax, and if a "b", likely more Trojan, in my opinion.

Across from Mt. Olympus in Thessaly, is Mt. Bermion, and Berea (in the Bible) called Veria today. We know lots about Olympus, and the Hyperborean Zeus who ruled it, but nothing of the Bermion Mt. The Verian Star symbol on the Greek flag originates here (16-pointed star), and was on Alexander the Great's fathers casket dug up here in otherwise Macedonia. Macedonians speak Greek, and are very much the same as Greeks, but yet Greece is multi-ethnic. Berea dates to ~1000 BC, but I may be able to push this date backward in this region for my key tribe, but at another location perhaps nearby. I think the name Veria reflects Phoencian.

Recall I stated the other author stating Avebury is Abiri (Hebrews) and they would be Phoenician Barats, and suggested Brittany from Barat.

I don't think I can argue about his version of Brittany, even if we through Avebury out the window for now.

On the Canary Isle question, Ca Nary would be the wolf god named Nary (nari), or a wolf god of the tribe Nary. A mountain or cave name here may relate to such a gods name, perhaps. Or, it could be the spirit/soul of Nary the god, unrelated to wolf/dog animism tamga. However, if I was looking for my wolf tribe in this region, I would go on shore to Liberia, or Li Beria. I haven't actually studied this avenue much yet, but I think ther is a mega womans image cut into the face rock on a mountain in this region. If I could assimilate something here, perhaps I could go offshore from this mainland springboard. Don't know.

However, canary is a bird, and it was suggest that Avebury could just have lots of birds, and this then means Avery. If using Phoenician Cretan syntax, then Avery becomes Abiry, the original definition I started with, as Abiri (Hebrew). Funny how that works. So then which version of this name was first? Who were they Buryans/Burjans (Hyperboreans) or Phoencians? I still say they were two different ethos, shared Crete and Lebanon, and were trading partners. I could just claim Phonecians, where other reading suggest they were Yakuts, Buryats, Siberians....etc. I still don't believe this, and never did, but I may need to sharpen my pencil.

Thanks for the tips, and I think we are beginning to see why I have the theory I have devised as Grand Global Genome, or GGG theory.

Along this line I'll attach one more paper that attempts to connect Spain (Iberians) to America, across the Atlantic at ~20,000 BC. Perfect paper for me because they use the name Iberian. Aye? On the other hand, they also downgrade a Siberian Bering Sea route. I would claim they could both be the same people, especially if you call them Iberians (in Spain). This is what Strabo claims; Siberian Buryats are the same as the Iberians of Spain.

Who were the first Americans? - The Washington Post

The blade found matches Iberian Spain type hardware I guess. Interesting study, but I don't have an opinion yet on their findings, but perfect for my GGG modeling, none-the-less.

I have yet more stones, but need more time. Thanks for the Saami gods info, and the symbol. These symbols are difficult to track down. I feel quite comfortable with the Bjarmaland location and perhaps my one tribe left a little dent here, if true, as I claim. I have to force myself into thinking Sibero-Mongol shamanism, then, I think I can make progress in Europe locations for this tribe anyway. The logic isn't so terrible, but the global linguistics is. The word Avebury is the perfect example. Thats why I use the phrase "Avenue of Burians" in jest. I have absolutly no good reason not to believe this phrase, but many reasons to believe it. Lets not get to hung up on this, because I will attempt they were all Apollo worshipers using different methodology. Then we can pick the correct "winning door" from the wide assortment of possibilities. I think the Benjamin tribe may be the correct Levant part. I say this because of the cave called Kebera on Mt Carmel. Everthing about an early Benjamin tribe I think fit their Northern regions, their oracle at En Dor, and the fact they are both archers, and a wolf tribe, and because St. Paul was a Benjamite, and in Thessaly, he fled to Berea where they hid him from the mob. the people of Berea should be his own root tribe, if I'm correct. The Bible claims in Berea they would at least consider Paul's phrophecy which he was elated about, as reported in the book of Acts in the Bible. Berea could be the first Hellenized Greeks, in theory. Alexander the Great could have brought this name to India, because the name Burjan is part of his pedigree. This could play into India date line, so I need to be careful on this name in India, and allow for this possibility, depending on era involved. We can't be too naive, if we sample these various regions, and leave such factors off the table. My migration trail is full of pit-falls for my key tribe. No small choir.

Happy Hunting, GGG guy.

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Occasionally language is unintentionally macaronic. A Greek-French example, well-known among French schoolchildren, is attributed to Xénophon by Alfred de Vigny in Pluton ciel que Janus Proserpine:

Ouk élabon polin, alla gar elpis éphè kaka.

This means

They did not take the city, as they hadn't a hope [of taking it].

But if read in French it sounds like:

Où qu'est la bonne Pauline? A la gare. Elle p***e et fait caca.

Meaning

Where is the maid Pauline? At the station. She's p***ing and pooing.

Another example lies in Swedish inter-language jokes to English where some words are replaced with false friends so that what is said still sounds like correct English but means something else for some one who know Swedish. An example is the sentence: "It is not the speed that kills, but the impact". In Swedish the word for speed is "fart" and impact is "smäll" (pronounced like "smell") so a Swede could say "It is not the fart that kills, but the smell". The Swedish film "Off side" where an English football player comes to Sweden to play local football uses a lot of jokes of this sort, showing the Swedes lack of knowledge for some every-day objects. For example, the English word "cup" sounds to a Swede a lot like "kopp" (which means cup) but sounds to an Englishman exactly like "cop", so when a character says that the better take out the "cops" the englishman becomes confused. Another example is when the Swedes try to translate the Swedish word "skata" (a kind of bird) and calls them "skates". So they tell the Englishman to watch out for all the skates pooing everywere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macaronic_language

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I'll try to address a couple of the remaning questions. One concerns Zeus (Iberian Ceus), and a relation to Amon, and Libyans, and the Siwi oasis.

For this see Sibyl-Libyan for Zeus/Amon, and see also the Etruscan Sibyl-Tiburtine (Etruscan ?).

Sibyl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If a Buryan/Burjan tribe was miners, and blacksmiths, than do the names of metals apply, or are they derived from this tribe historically, or did this tribe name any of them, and if so, where, and when, and what do these names mean?

In this link, see iron, and tungsten (wolfram, or German/Slavic volfram.

List of chemical element name etymologies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now in light of the Iron Age at ~1200 BC, metoritic iron (note as name bja).

To time line this material at 2-3,000 BC, this book contains many references to what is believed to be atifacts, and tex for this artifact found through archaeology, and various study references, and is use in a strict sense as proofs yes/no type derivations from these studies, and findings. See page 279 for meteoritic iron.

Ancient mesopotamian materials and industries: the archaeological evidence - Peter Roger Stuart Moorey - Google Books

Also for Egyptian (or Ethiopian) meteoritc iron, I'll attach another brief descriptor, and note the suggested Basque and French etymology.

Ancient Old Kingdom Egypt Egyptian Word Meaing Bja Etymology Meteoric Iron Stone Rock Meteorites Tribe Medjayu Arab Beja Bedja Name What Called Selves Bedaawye Bedouins Nation Son Kush Ityopis Greek Blemmyes Ethiopia Sudan Language Dispersion Meroe Meroitic Hieroglyphs Decipherment Script Kushan Kushitic Range Sanskrit India Translation Seed Semen Heaven Bija Malaysian Word Baja Meaning Peninsula Mexico Ironstone Deposits Transoceanic Navigation «

The claim here is the word Beja (Kushite) tribe is also Bedoins (as Arabic-French).

I have targeted the Bedouins as they could be of a Hyperborean reference to this region as Upper Nile tributaries between the Blue and White Nile's, roughly similar regions and time line. Note the Baja definition, and the Buri peninsula close by on the Red Sea, too. Could it be that the Norse good Buri ties to Meteoritic Iron, and of a Burjan tribe, that traces to how this peninsula was named? Note the Burjan god on Hephaestus was born of a meteorite, and iron is a "holy" metal, by name, as it comes from the Upper World gods, and a Burjan "mountain god" would be an Earth god, and they are tied to the Underworld god, I believe as a wolf-gatekeeper perhaps, too.

A Benjamin tribe, and a Bad Tibira blacksmith tribe may be connected to these Beja-Bedouins in theory. Of course, Thor would be similar in a Northern context with his smithy hammer, and Egypts Ptah/ The dog star Sirius should also be as a part of this "wolf tribe" criteria, and perhaps Egypts Anubis underworld god.

I believe a Beja/Bedouin could be defined as a Buda/Budini tribe in S Iran, and in Romania as mountain called Probijena as Serbian for Budin (or Budini), and would be related to a Burzyan-Bashkir, or Sakaliba (Slavic), or a Saka *Scythian". Should be related to R1a Central Asian yDNA.

Try these types of variants to the base tribal names I've used as Buryan/Burjan I think I may be able to accommodate the time line, and regions for tracking purposes.

I should note that the Basque region is just south of wolframite type ores in N. Portugal regions. Wolframite is also related to Englands/Cornwall tin smelters, too, as related to the wolf froth analogy in the melt process.

I contend the blacksmiths are a wolf tribe anyway, makings this type of phrase redundant to the process of tin nomenclature phrases.

See if these factors allow more Iberian-Basque tracking. The idea that Canary Islands have a black wolf mythology, and tied to the underworld is worthy, and perhaps could source from the word canine, and the Bible's Cain I think may be connectable thru this early meteoritic iron as mentioned, relative to Noah's descendants.

I have to be careful - I don't eat my words??? Also, I'm happy Puzzler found the Norse goddess relative to Egyptain Ka as to mean spirit/soul. It's better for someone else to find these connections, as it demonstrates some merit to my model's predictability. I believe a deified mountain is workable in Europe, but difficult to collect data on, and develope tribal root data, and to time line accurately. I use locational ground-truth as the more "real" part of my research baseline, but all factors are inclusive, to include mythologies. We rarely get the data in the form we would like, thats for sure. I'll be back soon, and it takes time to rationalize and contemplate so of these nuances. I think I'm still in reasonably good shape in concept. Happy Hunting, GGG guy.

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I have to be careful - I don't eat my words??? Also, I'm happy Puzzler found the Norse goddess relative to Egyptain Ka as to mean spirit/soul. It's better for someone else to find these connections, as it demonstrates some merit to my model's predictability. I believe a deified mountain is workable in Europe, but difficult to collect data on, and develope tribal root data, and to time line accurately. I use locational ground-truth as the more "real" part of my research baseline, but all factors are inclusive, to include mythologies. We rarely get the data in the form we would like, thats for sure. I'll be back soon, and it takes time to rationalize and contemplate so of these nuances. I think I'm still in reasonably good shape in concept. Happy Hunting, GGG guy.

Goodo GGG.

Same people (Sami) you will find deified mountains - called seidas, quite like Poseidon's name, don't you think?

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Thanks Puzzler. Some questions are formidable. I'll work with siedas first. I would agree with the definitions for this word pretty verbatim per this link on "Cultural Stone" in North regions.

Cultural stone

Herein defined as a Samic seit/seidas - as often a stone in the center of a holy place. A reference to "ceide" as a field at Mayo, Ireland (claims 3500 BC from under a bog). As Old Norse saete/saeti. English as "seat" in the phrase "manor including feudal domains".

Web site also claims a Southern calendar reached Lapland at ~4000 BC. Additional claim is that all people living above the latitude 60 deg. (arctic north) practice shamanism.

The other term "raur" as small mound of stones, and "herm", akin to Hermes (traveller's god), where travellers would, or can add stones to the existing pile left by numerous passing through the region. The is common to the ovoo type practice in Siberia, and Mongolia. Here, one pays respects to the territorial deity (of the mountain), or stone pile anywhere else, as a way to ensure safe passage. At Lake Baikal "Shamans Rock", one had to dismount a horse if in proximity, they had horse "booties" of leather, and would put these on the horses hoofs so the hoof steps wouldn't disturb the god/s. They would thus walk their horse thru the region before continuing their journey. Likely, they would also show reverence to an ovoo, or the cave there, and tips to gods are common. With a bottle of vodka, I think it is stil common to anoint the ground (Earth god/s) first, before continuing with your drink, or toast, as I've read in Russian news story from Lake Baikal regions.

A seidas seems to be akin to stones, and generally deified, but also could be boundry markers, or otherwise cultural passage - token (or I'll use totem) points for general safe keeping in wilderness regions.

As a locational point of interest relative to Bjarmaland is the Dvina River. I see Divine in this word, but this is just a hunch.

Now for the Poseidon part. If we were to say the etymology was as Po Seidon, as to allow a seidas (holy mountain) translation and condition, then what would Po mean, or be? My only close answer could be Burjan/Hyperborean references I have in Po River Valley, N. Italy. If we said that both Finnish and Hungarian people have the most Sumerian Akkadian in their languages, in that order respectively, then I could entertain a good argument for a proto-Po-Seidon, of this region. These two tribes were also referenced to Lake Van Anatolia, and Volga River regions. If Karelians (of the Baltic region) are of the city Kar in old Armenia (albeit Iberia, or al-Burjan, or Georgia), I can maybe associate the Carians which I see as a Zeus turf (south of Lydia), and thereby, link to a Lebanon Poseidon (where I also see a possible Sidon?), and a goddess Beroe, his daughter, ie., Samothrace Kabeiros cult.

There is a city named after Poseidon on the island called Samos, too. So could Samos be part of the name Saami (Sami)? I don't really know much about him but can add this. A Burjan tribe would be the Idaean Dactyls and Hephaestus connection, which adds Lemnos Isle, and Samothrace as common to Hephaestus. Lesbos I can't get at so readily, but they too had an oracle, and sacred cave.

Previous references were made to Euboea Island Island in Greece I think may translate as Euboea being Boii people, which is Bohemia - Home of the Boii - and Buri tribe, or, as Suevi tribes in Germanic regions. On this Island is the ancient city called Bauron. There is also a Posidon temple here.

I don't want to speculate too much, but these are additional factors for a Poseidon type connection, but relative to my scope of tribe name and research.

For Holy Hills, I have a web page for an India version of deified mountains. Note in verse 33 a reference to a trident (type weapon) as Poseidon's, but called a vadivel.

Selected Bhajans

The name of the solar deity on the Canary Islands is Abora.

Abora - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For more wolf-dog historical, I have this web page which I can direct to the part in Yorkshire, Here, Yorkshire's old name as Eboricum, I believe is Eburones, or Berones in N. Spain, by Basque territories, and/or, relative to Iberians ant the Ebro (may be Ebur, Hebrew, Iberu, Iberian, or Tiberian Hebrew language).

Black dog (ghost) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Good overall feel for some of the folklore associated to dogs and wolves. I think they left out the English Cunobelin, connected to Belinus, the sun god. Otherwise known as the "Hound of Heaven".

See if this may help some. I have confidence with the Bjarmaland notion, but don't have a good description for this naming, except the one I give as of Burjan, or Buryan. Could assimilate as Hyperboreans if I'm correct on this association of tribe name variants, and locational evolution through time.

One tribe is quite difficult to assimilate, so consider the number of them in every region we mention. I'm attempting to bring some common early practices to the table, so we can hopefully bend our thinking to that of these ancient ancestors. The stones are fair play, but we need to have some balance as to reading into the various nuances.

I mentioned that Avebury isn't on a hill or mountain. Bad news for my theory, so it seems. But, right next to Avebury is Silbury, the largest artificial hill in England. So maybe not so bad afterall.

See if these notions may help some. I have sparse data for Sami peoples, but feel its workable at Bjarmaland. The other zones in Norway are at Bergan (or Bergen). They celebrate the Boreas festival. There could be such a holy hill or mountain here, but I haven't sought this out yet. Good target for this tribal name though.

Be back soon. Thanks for the inputs, GGG guy.

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To address a Crete and Trojan connection to what I claim is an Iberian (Caucasus) Buryan/Burjan tribe, and to include the blacksmith crtiique, I believe the Idaean Dactyls are a proper solution, and they can be on both ends of the Crete Island. They also would be pre-Iron Age according to the text I'll attach and archaeology on Crete per a Kabeiros cult affinity which I believe should be in Iberian Spain, and pre-Celtic, or before a Celtiberian affiliation. The Crete city is called Palaikastro.

Idaea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dactyl (mythology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Korybantes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Palaikastro Sitia Crete Greece

This will allow a tie to Lemnos Isle where I can trace my tribe name as Burjan. Note the claim that they are assiciated with copper and bronze, and the claim they came from the East (of Anatolia I believe), or Iberians (Caucasus), to include Lake Van kingdoms. In light of the Crete-Iberian-Ligurian dates of ~6-5,000 BC as we've entertained herein, I think these mythologies would be much later in time. I'll infer Copper and Bronze ages, and Herculean periods, to include this type of architectural buildings, as a minimum. Should be proto-Greeks, or my tribe/s as Macedonian-Thessalian, as the Kabeiros cult folks, or affiliates. I believe these portions of the myths are in proper order.

Do these tell us about Trojans, Iberians, or Basque people?

Note that the Basque deity referenced herein as Lauburu has a four armed type sun wheel, with several possible root meanings to the Basque people. I found a good web page for these scenarios, and some ancient context with derivatives for the various definitions therefrom.

The Baskian Swastika Lauburu, its symbolic meaning and history

I should note that my type of tribe would likely have a triskelion, with three arms. This suggest they are not Basque, but could be in neighboring regions, as we've discussed. Note this symbol is on a Buryatia flag, I claim as first origin of a Buryan tribal name, and Later as Burjan in India and Iberia (Caucasus).

Triskelion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I also need to correct my previous blog where; the wolframite mineral is south of the Basque regions (N. Spain, or N Portugal), not North of Basque regions as state therein, in Gaul.

The mention of bulls is also within reach of Zeus's Lykaion alter in Greece as the archaeologists dug up a bull type "stamp" here. The image of the Zeus coin I previously attached was also found here. This is why the estimated date was stated 3-2,000 BC, I think. Coins this old didn't have any dates on them. I have a problem with this date even on this coin, but this site "is" quite ancient none-the-less.

Lykaion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Homepage – Mt. Lykaion Excavation and Survey Project

I may have kept a picture of this bull stamp, but the project site it where I saw this a couple years back. There top side on first page exhibits a nice slide show for the area of interest, and the ruins in question. I believe I can trace a Buryan/Burjan tribe to this island, but they are not necessarily the "wolf" Spartans, but I contend Trojans. Spartans may have inherited their wolf traditions from the other, and not be the same ethos, as such. I don't know yet how to fully differentiate. Note Idaean Dactyls are credited with the blacksmith metal process, and I don't think Spartans were because Hephaestus was in charge of their wolf training (or placed his other deities in charge of this), and he is of Lemnos Isle. So Spartans are a special case "wolf tribe" which may have been learned. The tribe of Benjamin is also within an analogous comparison, however, the name Benjamin and other factors could assimilate as ancestors of such tribe, and/or Caucasus Iberians. Blacksmiths are a key factor I've come to realize, and mines do exist in many global locations. This is why I use certain characteristics I've gathered for this tribe, and as tracking methodology of them. None-the-less, I need many factors to line up as well. The difference is hard-data, or soft-data. The word Iberia, and Gaul, Portugal, and Spain is another part of these same ramifications. One mint in Spain (Celtiberian coins) was called Bora. Is this a Bear, Bull, Bore... or, a Draco tribe mint? I say this because a Draco type war horn (wolf headed dragon) was found in Spain, too.

Some pics for a Kubera god relative to the Saami (Norway) Beavi sun goddess symbol.

post-110550-0-12837400-1331518347_thumb.

post-110550-0-55516600-1331518711_thumb.

I have read there is association between Assur god and Kubara, not to mix with Kubera, I believe was his son, and both of India to my knowledge.

post-110550-0-06564300-1331519081_thumb.

post-110550-0-41754100-1331519265_thumb.

This last image can help us date the cave and agriculture is implied.

I don't know how this Kebara cave was named, a date of the naming, nor who named it. My GGG theory would allow perhaps a Bad Tibira connection in Sumeria's 2nd dynasty, and to Kubera in NW India, by way of the fertile cresscent, and include S Iranian (likely Gorgan - Land of Wolves), and Benjamin as a wolf tribe. Ironically, Benjamins name is tampered with, as the Bible and historians' state his father renamed him. I've read translations to his name, in various spellings, or language-dialects, and I not totally comfortable with these definitions entirely. I think my root tribe caould translate equally well within this region, and various other attributes associated with this tribe. It is certainly a best Levant choice, but Edomites are also a good choice, and I believe the city Ugarit may be part of this Sumerian-Levant correlation, but more work is needed. Posidon-Bereo, Phoenicians-at Tyre, and Burjans at Berytus (Beirut) is within reach, and would fit the Phoenician-Spain Iberians, could be also Trojans later, but within a proto-Greek time line scenario.

I'm attempting to warden off my imputs for the blog, and characterize my GGG -tribe into the overall scheme of Spain-Gaul activities. Mineral maps of Gaul shows that Basque regions lack minerals, and thus wouldn't have much mining. More as lowlands, where, most minerals are related to the mountainous regions of Gaul, N. Spain, and N. Portugal. My key tribe as miners do trace to the mineral areas, so it seems. This seems the most rational 1st approximation as Basque people, Basque confederations, or even Basque ethos (genes).

However, Spain's Iberians' are yet likely players of these regions as well. If as suggested from my web pages and Idaean Dactyls, then the Crete-Sicily-Iberian Spain connection begins to make better logic.

Thats my take for now. See if these factors allow for a pre-Iron Age Caucasus-Iberian in Iberian-Spain, and perhaps the same ethos, as Strabo may have suggested, being Siberian Buryats.

Sorry abut the extra layer of text, but this is fun stuff, right? I hope to hear some feedback, and no, I can't just make this history up, from scratch. Thanks for the additional inputs as this is quite interesting, albeit time consuming, GGG guy.

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Thanks for your posts GGG, I'd address some points now and continue when I have some more time...

Herein defined as a Samic seit/seidas - as often a stone in the center of a holy place. A reference to "ceide" as a field at Mayo, Ireland (claims 3500 BC from under a bog). As Old Norse saete/saeti. English as "seat" in the phrase "manor including feudal domains".

seat (1) "thing to sit on, act of sitting," c.1200, from O.N. sæti "seat, position," from P.Gmc. *sæt- (cf. O.H.G. saze, M.Du. gesaete "seat," O.H.G. gisazi, Ger. Gesäß "buttocks"), from PIE root *sed- "to sit" (see sit). The verb is from 1570s. Meaning "posterior of the body" (the sitting part) is from c.1600; sense of "part of a garment which covers the buttocks" is from 1835. Seat belt is from 1932, originally in airplanes.seat (2) "residence, abode, established place," late 13c., extended use of seat (1), influenced by O.Fr. siege "seat, established place," and L. sedes "seat." Meaning "city in which a government sits" is attested from c.1400. Sense of "place in a parliament or other legislative body" is attested from 1774.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=seat

It could be possible that saeti O.N - seat, position is relevant to the use in Sami culture, as the seida may have been seen as the seat of a family or seat of the God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B

'po' in Linear B actually appears to look like someone sitting or the seat itself - it might be a kingly title like - 'in/of' (Lithuanian IE I think) the seat - check it out in that Lin. B link.

In the context of how Poseidon is used in Linear B, to me, the term 'the king' ie; poseidon - of the seat (throne) could make sense. Always King Neptune etc, a title like King seems to fit him moreso than any others, like he had been a King in his cultures realm before he arrived on the Greek scene.

Now for the Poseidon part. If we were to say the etymology was as Po Seidon, as to allow a seidas (holy mountain) translation and condition, then what would Po mean, or be? My only close answer could be Burjan/Hyperborean references I have in Po River Valley, N. Italy. If we said that both Finnish and Hungarian people have the most Sumerian Akkadian in their languages, in that order respectively, then I could entertain a good argument for a proto-Po-Seidon, of this region. These two tribes were also referenced to Lake Van Anatolia, and Volga River regions. If Karelians (of the Baltic region) are of the city Kar in old Armenia (albeit Iberia, or al-Burjan, or Georgia), I can maybe associate the Carians which I see as a Zeus turf (south of Lydia), and thereby, link to a Lebanon Poseidon (where I also see a possible Sidon?), and a goddess Beroe, his daughter, ie., Samothrace Kabeiros cult.

Po River and Valley may be a shorter form of Bodencus (Ligurian) which a possible Podus/Padus in Greek derived from this, into an even shorter form of Po, so I don't really see a connection on the surface.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po_(river)

Boreas, his name might mean 'piercing'- as in piercingly cold, a term used for bitterly cold wind.

Again, a Nordic IE root of bor - bore - drill - pierce

I couldn't be sure either about connecting Basque ibai (river) to buryan though, even though I suspect that ibai is the root word for (Causasian) Iberia and (Spanish) Iberia. What is the word Buryan's root do you think?

Here is a fabulous list of Basque words for now: http://www.buber.net/Basque/Euskara/hitz.html

Whoever named Ur imo just as Basque has it, water - imo have carried the Basque language - whether it was Sumerians or not, that is what I'd very much think.

Back later.

Edited by The Puzzler

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