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Trojans were Basques?


The Puzzler

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OK, so what I have is a fragile line through from the Basque-like language spoken on the Aquitanian Atlantic coast to the Veneti in Venice, which might have been part of a possible migration to Asia Minor (as per most legends have Troy settled after arriving there - with an Atlantic/Atlas ancestry (through Elektra) - then after the Trojan war they migrated back to the same area of the Venetian plains.

Myth corroborates a legend that Dardanus was from Italy.

This tradition holds that Dardanus was a Tyrrhenian prince, and that his mother Electra was married to Corythus, king of Tarquinia

as though an outward migration occurred, then they came back.

Quite frankly, I find it an odd story that BOTH Etruscans and Romans happened to derive from journeys out of Anatolia and ended up as neighbours thousands of miles away - I just don't know if I buy that story, I constantly search for answers that seem more probable.

Sometimes Puzzler the truth is stranger than fiction. Case in point from my own ancestry: In 1623, four completely unrelated people/couples, out of dozens, immigrated to America aboard the Ship Ann. I am a descendant of these four lines, all from a ship from 389 years ago. :yes:

cormac

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Sometimes Puzzler the truth is stranger than fiction. Case in point from my own ancestry: In 1623, four completely unrelated people/couples, out of dozens, immigrated to America aboard the Ship Ann. I am a descendant of these four lines, all from a ship from 389 years ago. :yes:

cormac

Good one.

The Romans were Trojans from Aeneus, a son of Venus.

So again, we have a link of Venus/Veneti.

Like the Romans were Veneti to start with.

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Good one.

The Romans were Trojans from Aeneus, a son of Venus.

So again, we have a link of Venus/Veneti.

Like the Romans were Veneti to start with.

Perhaps according to legend, but originating from Anatolia doesn't automatically make them, specifically, Trojan.

cormac

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Perhaps according to legend, but originating from Anatolia doesn't automatically make them, specifically, Trojan.

cormac

I'm not really sure what you mean by that.

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I'm not really sure what you mean by that.

"Trojan" implies descending from Troy, which is in Northwest Turkey, while there is not actual evidence AFAIK that the Romans originated specifically from there. There IS evidence that they descended from Anatolia in general. Anatolia was divided by several kingdoms/subkingdoms, so making a specific claim of Trojan origin should be backed by archaeological evidence, in the least.

The Trojan origin of Romans claim is much like someone claiming that Americans are Texans because Texas is a state in America. Doesn't work that way.

cormac

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I've made the comment that a Buryan in Iran can be related to Budin, Budini, and Buddah, (would be a Sakastan prince). This is related to Mt. Probejenia (Serbian - Budin, Budini), and Budapest, this is the Buda part of Budapest, on one side of the Danube, because this city was two different tribes, and I believe Atilla's - the Hun - capital. On page 380 in a sub-script, you can find a cross-reference for this translation.

A History of the Precious Metals from the Earliest Times to the Present - Alex Del Mar - Google Books

The sub-script below this one allows my previous statements about Hugarian-Finns, and Magyars, but I related to Sumerian Akkadian analysis as my source of information.

If you go to the index in this book, it contains a comprehensive writeup on ancient mining basically around the globe. So I did an overview in the Veneti, Italy, Gaul, and Spain, including the Basque regions. Anyway, good source of info FYI.

I think the idea that Liburnians are connected to Bari Italy is of interest, because the Berbers are connected to Bari, and if I recall, likely during the modern era. However, as you pointed out, the Phoencian-Iberian Spain-Ligurians in the Mediterranean to be of high importance. Because Etruscans are related to Lemnos Island, and Ligurians and Phoencians are both connected to Kabeiros people, this would reflect the older dates, I contend are before the Iron Age. Then if your also correct about the Veneti in Basque regions of Gaul, then I don't have an issue with this as I think I can show this to be highly possible based on my key tribe analysis in support of this. Other tribes, difficult for me, although, I have various misc. nuances to reflect for some tribes. Any one tribe is difficult to that end, and can take a lifetime to study. I hope the Internet can shorten this, even though its too late for me, after 30+ years now collecting data, for one tribe. Ha.

Can these players also bring a Buri god to the Baltic regions. I see this as inevitable, but is part of my missing pieces with my concept. I want to note that it seems Thor had a sister Thora. I know little on this part of the myths. If they are twins, then this would put a certain spin on the myth analysis, in my opinion. Perhaps allow a source root to twinning in mythologies, in general. Similar to Apollo-Artemis. Thor, as a probable blacksmith with his hammer would elevate this question for my tribe, if I'm correct, their blacksmiths, a wolf tribe, ...etc. I think my characterizations are in good order, which allows some tracking details, I contend will have glue, when the regional historical data is fully played into this envelope of conditions, essentially their culture. Having secret societies is damned nasty which is why my knowledge is seemingly weak. Kabeiros, and Druids didn't write these things down apparently, but I do have some ways to work around these limits as described herein. Phoenicians and Burjans appear to both be Sea Peoples. Can they be detached, or are they the same people?

I have a paper for some newer analysis on Bornholm Island. It's based on building architecture analysis, and ties to Etruscans. Etruscans match the Kabeiros related Idaean Dactyls, as they too have childlike deities, born up from the ground. Also Maris (Mars - wolf), and Apollo."

Island of Bornholm « PluribusOne™ Consulting, LLC

Rassena is equivalent to Ravenna (city) in Italy. I see no way out of this because Ravenna also has the Gothic type temple. With respect to Aachen, I believe they may have a wolf tamga. Charlemagne called himself "king of the Lombards" and I think he is of Aachen. I have a 20th century Aachen war memorial coin that has a bull dog type dog on it. I haven't found much though for these Aachens, yet, except for Buriano Italy I see as Lombards, and also related to Lombard architecture in Buriano Italy (Tuscany ), as well. Again, ~800AD, and Milan as a capital. Bari Italy has Gothic structures I think relative to this Charlemange era, and St Nicholus's shrine. He is the saint of gift giving. Where "x" is runic "gift", hence, Xmas proper for Christmas as the "Winter Fest" as this was a gift exchange, with presents, and decorated tree. He dates ~ 10th cent. AD here. His bones were exhumed from Anatolia, as the story goes, and re-buried in Bari. After-all, Bari could mean burial, or underworld Burian miners, where Bari could reflect this deified "proper" scenario to re-bury such a dignitary. Otherwise, why build a shrine? I believe this is also one stop on the 10 labors of Hercules. In fact, this saga covers most the data points were discussing, all the way to Spain, if the current analysis is in good order. Anyway, This Bari is an early port, and connects to Liburnians. If Hephaestus from Lemnos ties to Sicily, then the rest is water over the dam, in my opinion. Can a Nordic Berber fit her for the Berber-Saami DNA analysis? It may be easier to get a Berber up the Volga or Dneiper, that out of Spain. Just a suggestion.

Thanks for the data provided. Maybe we can put this to bed. I feel good about the progress, and skimpy is good, not bad. Sometimes, it takes years to find key data. I'm used to this, and right now swamped with leads. This is good, but difficult, and my model seems to hold up. What about Excalibur? Isn't this actually blacksmith nomeclature, a gift "x" from Kabeiro, aka Ka Beiro (Burjan), in lieu of Kabar as suggested in Sumerian "copper"? Sorry, wrong metal.

I see Amazon's as part of Lycians because they had women representatives in their government. I would chance this, as women capable of defending this position - to death - if need be. The "Nix" golden chariot found in France I see as Amazonian, perhaps. The oldest known chariots trace to Russia I think. Amazons were on Lemnos with Burjans, And Burjans were said to prefer Thracian women. Amazons would cut off one breast, for some reason (?), so this wouldn't make you exactly competitive, as a woman, in the dating world, would it. Another claim was they smelled. Amazons are also in the Pontic (by Lake Van). Another claim is many of their husbands may have been killed in battles, which then pushed them into Sarmation intermarriages in the N. Black Sea regions. So they like Burjans, and/or Hyperboreans, migrated out of Lake Van regions by going North, over the Caucasus (Georgia, or al-Burjan, Colchus), then also, I claim West, to Lemnos Isle, in time for Jason and the Argonauts to have his first encounter with these "men-killers", as some would suggest, on Lemnos Island. I see them as one rugged bunch of babes. I see Lycia as a mixed populace, and my key tribe would be more likely Carians (Zeus's city), next door to Lycians, and more inland at their later dates in this region. I've read Carians came by sea, and move from coastal regions later. If true, they could have come from just about anywhere, where boats may be found on these early dates. The Uluburun shipwreak by Cyprus/Turkey allows some info from 1200BC in its cargo content. Burun, nickname for the vessels location, and project recovery team, is also a mountain name in N. Black Sea regions of Russia.

.

Black Sea regions are fair play, but a Crete-Lebanon may be the real case, as we've discussed herein. This is why a Phoenician connection is important. This would enable Poseidon, Beiro, and Kabeiro as Phrygian Mother Earth goddess. Kabeiros cult ties to Crete and Egypt, but also Thessaly, Lemnos, and Tuscany in my opinion. This allows a Ligurian-Spain and Celtiberian language part, as well as mines and blacksmiths.

If, Burjans are Barats in Phoenecia (from Abiri - Canaan - as Hebrew), then in Phoenician Cretan script Barat would be as "prt".

Here's a web page that just pounds this concept into your brain relentlessly. I can only take so much at one sitting. The title "Phoenician Penetration if Britain Attested by "Barat", Patronym in Old Place and Ethnic names".

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/pob/pob_ch15.html

Even if we were to disallow a Barat as a Burjan tribe, Kabeiros is also tied to here. If so, are Kabeiros folks Barat Phoenicians, and if so, can they also be Tiberian Hebrews, a Benjamiie tribe perhaps, and can they be in Beirut (Berytus) Lebanon, as well, next to Phoenician Tyre port? And, are these tribe names all related to Bad Tibira Sumerian blacksmiths? And how do we manage the dwarfs? Do the Phoenicians also have these reflections in the Barat people?

I have one more peice of data for Norfolk England where Bury type coins can be found.

Bernicia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ida of Bernicia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So then why would their 1st king, from their list given, have a name as Ida, same as the Mt Ida's in Crete, and Phrygia (by Troy). Is his name tampered with, pray-tell? If Norse Buri reflects mountain gods, then why would would he be licked from ice, or, is Ice a mountain too, as in iceberg. Here, in ancient times, sea people were called flatlanders, because the sea is flat, hence, an ice berg then becomes a mountain, as an island in the sea. Is this because Audumia is of the land of fire, so as to encompass the arctic conditions, yet borrow Hathor from Egypt to model Audumia from"?

Why would a coin be called Bury, even if we allow all the definition described herein with respect to Avebury henge name. Bury coins are of Norfolk, and some older wood type henge ring structures here, too, and Grimes Graves ancient flint tool mines. Bernicia may be as Berenice port on the Red Sea in Egypt, the constelllation zodiac, and, an Egyptian sea worthy vessel was dug up here on the Red Sea. Otherwise, Egypt built river boats (Nile). I can't fully ascertain these factors completely yet, but are observations. Can Bury be Buri?

I think it may be better to stay a bit more centered even if one needs to lay a foundation for concept. I'm not content yet with even my key tribe and Basque people, but most data seems to be other then Basque. However their language name sounds an awful lot like Etrusk. I actually don't have a specific Buryan/Burjan language, albeit, even after the Iron Age, but a Druidic part is making more sense for many reasons, and should be Trojans, too.

I have to review the attachments more yet, but it seems we are getting somewhere, or, I'm adding to my model, as applicable. Also, Kubeiros cult wears this pointed type hat, as well as Zeus's ediface near Harran, Anatolia. It's also similar on Celtiberian coins, as a horse rider, which fits other comments, herein. A Russian hat is also called a burek, and I've considered the beret hat (Italy), but I don't know. A Burek is the very furry Russian hat, I think. I think this Kabeiros type is called a pileus.

Pileus (hat) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Be back soon, GGG guy.

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"Trojan" implies descending from Troy, which is in Northwest Turkey, while there is not actual evidence AFAIK that the Romans originated specifically from there. There IS evidence that they descended from Anatolia in general. Anatolia was divided by several kingdoms/subkingdoms, so making a specific claim of Trojan origin should be backed by archaeological evidence, in the least.

The Trojan origin of Romans claim is much like someone claiming that Americans are Texans because Texas is a state in America. Doesn't work that way.

cormac

Yes, I see now, thats what I'm trying to do. It's a good question, is there is any evidence that Romans came from Anatolia at all - I'm onto it. I'm not talking Etruscans.

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Just one man and his son begin the Roman Trojan line anyway, so it would be unlikely to find much dna from Anatolia in Romans imo.

Do you have any links on Roman dna, they seem few and far between ie; nothing I can find from Iron Age. One below is too late of interest.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100201171756.htm

Edit: I meant Iron Age, not Bronze Age.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Actually, Romans might carry Anatolian dna if they married with Etruscans, which is very probable.

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To be honest GGG, I really need to stay focused on my topic at hand, I'm not ignoring your posts but don't feel I can add much to them at this point without taking myself off track.

This one of my favourite pieces of Etruscan art:

659px-Etruscan_pendant_with_swastika_symbols_Bolsena_Italy_700_BCE_to_650_BCE.jpg

It was found in Bolsena and dates quite early, to 700BC. Obviously note the swastika - a very square shaped one. People have various ideas on what it means and is often seen as a symbol of the seasons change, time. The city of Bolsena, as Volsinii is the home of the God Voltumna, who became Vortumnus in Roman mythology. He is in charge of the SEASONS - so it occurred to me the swastika motif could relate to him, the pendant could be recognising Voltumna.

A bit like Saturn, but also note his connection to gardens and fruit trees, which then makes me think of the Garden of Eden and it's apple tree and the whole concept of 'God'.

Etruscan Volsinii (Velzna or Velusna; or sometimes in Latin Volsinii Veteres Old Volsinii) appears to have been one of the most powerful cities of Etruria, the cult centre of the god Voltumna, and was doubtless one of the 12 which formed the Etruscan confederation, as Volsinii is designated by Livy[9] and Valerius Maximus[10] as one of the capita Etruriae ("heads of Etruria"). It is described by Juvenal[11] as seated among well-wooded hills.

In Roman mythology, Vertumnus also Vortumnus or Vertimnus is the god of seasons, change[1] and plant growth, as well as gardens and fruit trees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volsinii

Not only that but this city, the richest in Tuscany appears to have a record of "a bolt from Mars falling on Bolsena" - interesting to me, to say the least.

While it is fairly certain that the city is the successor to the ancient Roman town of Volsinii (sometimes termed Volsinii Novi New Volsinii to distinguish it from the Etruscan city), scholarly opinion is sharply divided as to whether Volsinii was the same as the ancient Etruscan city of Velzna or Velsuna (sometimes termed Volsinii Veteres Old Volsinii), the other candidate being Orvieto, 20 km (12 mi) NE. George Dennis pointed out that the town of Bolsena has no Etruscan characteristics; for example, Etruscan cities were built on defensible crags, which the hill on which the castle is situated is not. The Roman historian Pliny the Elder said[2] that a bolt from Mars fell on Bolsena, "the richest town in Tuscany" and that the city was entirely burned up by this bolt. The population moved to another site, which Dennis thought was Bolsena. The new city was named after the old, hence Roman Bolsena has an Etruscan name. Dennis suggests a number of crags in the area including Orvieto but does not favor Orvieto on the grounds that it is too far away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolsena

Edited by The Puzzler
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Yes, I see now, thats what I'm trying to do. It's a good question, is there is any evidence that Romans came from Anatolia at all - I'm onto it. I'm not talking Etruscans.

The Etruscan lineage is U7a, while the Romans (as native Italians) are linked with U5b via the Carpathian Basin which originated from the parent haplogroup U in Southwest Asia/Middle East c.54,000 BP. The timeframe for both U7a and U5b is several THOUSAND years prior to any meaningful claim of a relationship/descendancy from Trojans c.1200 BC.

As a side note, neither U7a nor U5b are ancestral to/descended from one another. They are sister groups descending from Haplogroup U.

cormac

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I went back to the 5000 BC date for the ring stones in Evora, Portugal. Evora is also Ebora, And the Canary Isle sun god as Abora. If analogous, and the same tribe/s, then this would enable comparable time lines in both locations. Also, the dog underworld idea from Canary Isles should also translate to Evora, if this can be found. Both locals would also exhibit mines perhaps.

I'll attach an image from Volterra, Italy. In England, by Norfolk, an early fort or castle was built right where lightning struck. I recall its related to the last attachments and king Ida histories, and regions, and structural remnants there. In Tuscany, these images I believe to be of Lombard people. The region, as a northern front to the Romans was also called Colonna de Buriano. Note the town Volterra and the names on the attachments.

post-110550-0-07922100-1332009153_thumb.

post-110550-0-97767900-1332009331_thumb.

There was a Lord Buriano connected to Martin Luther, and of Moravia (Czech). I believe this name may be related, and would be Lombardic, and trace to Lambert de Buriano, an early guild of the region. I make no claim as Etruscans, but could be them migrating into the Netherlands, then migrating back, about 2 millenniums later. Hard to imagine, and would they actually have remembered their ancestors if true I see as doubtful.

I'll attach some Slavic lightening, or ball lightning symbol. I've read they use these as building motifs.

post-110550-0-05768100-1332010338_thumb.

Here's a Slavic god Svarog. Kind of gets to the point in this representation of him.

post-110550-0-43363300-1332010589_thumb.

Here's an old Slavic calendar, or zodiac.

post-110550-0-16835600-1332010889_thumb.

I hope this helps on some of your questions. I see concentric ring symbols as "sun", and spiral symbols as "time" in general. The Etruscan peice you attached would reflect a sun in the center. The seasonal explanation seems reasonable to me based on the quadrant of smaller suns, but I don't want to speculate too much. You definately struck a chord with me though on the Etruscan mythology. I'm impressed with your knowledge of the myths, and languages. I think scientifically and so the morals and myths are a strugle for me. I also have to allow a female part of my research, as my study stems from a surname, and yDNA, so questions as the Amazons I struggle with. After-all, they shared Lemnos Island, and in light of a Hollywood glamorized Amazon dream girl, text on my tribe suggest exactly the opposite, essentially bipolar to any popular "imagined" description.

Perhaps Burjans, Lemnians, Etruscans, and Basque have a language affinity. I can associate the Ligurians to Cetiberian Spain languages, and believe they are Lugi-Buri on Ptolemy maps, and Buri-Dacians, Likely Liburnian-Veneti, and all tied from Lake Van Anatolian ancestors, or Cacasus Iberians, and Ukrainian Russians. In the latter, mythology can relate to N. Black Sea regions, and would be Scythians as a generic grouping. Ultimately, as Trojans, around Mt Ida, in Anatolia. This follows a Veneti thinking, in my opinion.

The subject of lightening leads to Zeus ultimately for a date time line factor in the regions of interest here. I see as post Iron Age in general. The tumulus mounds in Liburnia I think may provide better clues at earlier dates, but I only learned of this a week ago. One should ascertain the probable route to connect Saami in the North, to Berbers in Africa, Spain, Portugal, or anywhere else, because the DNA signatures, although alarming would strongly suggest these folks "are" related. I'm thinking 3-2,000 BC, and perhaps the early form of their gods to include Buri.

I have crossed paths with the goddess Electra, but need some time to recover the info. I think maybe we can associate both our concepts, and as you have said, there is a lot in common, however, I'm attempting to keep things simple and basic as to convey my underlying concepts, so we can understand the associations in their proper context, and interpretation, such as the Excalibur nuance. I contend its all in how you weight data merits, to gain good approximations in very ancient histories. To me, all data, and concepts are good, but the degree of merit is always in question, unless we have facts. Any new find could make, or break a historical model. I try to read and follow data, and if enough accumulates, one can theorize which can lead to some interesting revelations in history.

Be back soon, GGG guy.

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I went back to the 5000 BC date for the ring stones in Evora, Portugal. Evora is also Ebora, And the Canary Isle sun god as Abora. If analogous, and the same tribe/s, then this would enable comparable time lines in both locations. Also, the dog underworld idea from Canary Isles should also translate to Evora, if this can be found. Both locals would also exhibit mines perhaps.

I'll attach an image from Volterra, Italy. In England, by Norfolk, an early fort or castle was built right where lightning struck. I recall its related to the last attachments and king Ida histories, and regions, and structural remnants there. In Tuscany, these images I believe to be of Lombard people. The region, as a northern front to the Romans was also called Colonna de Buriano. Note the town Volterra and the names on the attachments.

post-110550-0-07922100-1332009153_thumb.

post-110550-0-97767900-1332009331_thumb.

There was a Lord Buriano connected to Martin Luther, and of Moravia (Czech). I believe this name may be related, and would be Lombardic, and trace to Lambert de Buriano, an early guild of the region. I make no claim as Etruscans, but could be them migrating into the Netherlands, then migrating back, about 2 millenniums later. Hard to imagine, and would they actually have remembered their ancestors if true I see as doubtful.

I'll attach some Slavic lightening, or ball lightning symbol. I've read they use these as building motifs.

post-110550-0-05768100-1332010338_thumb.

Here's a Slavic god Svarog. Kind of gets to the point in this representation of him.

post-110550-0-43363300-1332010589_thumb.

Here's an old Slavic calendar, or zodiac.

post-110550-0-16835600-1332010889_thumb.

I hope this helps on some of your questions. I see concentric ring symbols as "sun", and spiral symbols as "time" in general. The Etruscan peice you attached would reflect a sun in the center. The seasonal explanation seems reasonable to me based on the quadrant of smaller suns, but I don't want to speculate too much. You definately struck a chord with me though on the Etruscan mythology. I'm impressed with your knowledge of the myths, and languages. I think scientifically and so the morals and myths are a strugle for me. I also have to allow a female part of my research, as my study stems from a surname, and yDNA, so questions as the Amazons I struggle with. After-all, they shared Lemnos Island, and in light of a Hollywood glamorized Amazon dream girl, text on my tribe suggest exactly the opposite, essentially bipolar to any popular "imagined" description.

Perhaps Burjans, Lemnians, Etruscans, and Basque have a language affinity. I can associate the Ligurians to Cetiberian Spain languages, and believe they are Lugi-Buri on Ptolemy maps, and Buri-Dacians, Likely Liburnian-Veneti, and all tied from Lake Van Anatolian ancestors, or Cacasus Iberians, and Ukrainian Russians. In the latter, mythology can relate to N. Black Sea regions, and would be Scythians as a generic grouping. Ultimately, as Trojans, around Mt Ida, in Anatolia. This follows a Veneti thinking, in my opinion.

The subject of lightening leads to Zeus ultimately for a date time line factor in the regions of interest here. I see as post Iron Age in general. The tumulus mounds in Liburnia I think may provide better clues at earlier dates, but I only learned of this a week ago. One should ascertain the probable route to connect Saami in the North, to Berbers in Africa, Spain, Portugal, or anywhere else, because the DNA signatures, although alarming would strongly suggest these folks "are" related. I'm thinking 3-2,000 BC, and perhaps the early form of their gods to include Buri.

I have crossed paths with the goddess Electra, but need some time to recover the info. I think maybe we can associate both our concepts, and as you have said, there is a lot in common, however, I'm attempting to keep things simple and basic as to convey my underlying concepts, so we can understand the associations in their proper context, and interpretation, such as the Excalibur nuance. I contend its all in how you weight data merits, to gain good approximations in very ancient histories. To me, all data, and concepts are good, but the degree of merit is always in question, unless we have facts. Any new find could make, or break a historical model. I try to read and follow data, and if enough accumulates, one can theorize which can lead to some interesting revelations in history.

Be back soon, GGG guy.

Puzzler and I have discussed this on multiple occasions. You're not remotely in the right ballpark, time wise. The Sami-Berber split was 9000 BP (7000 BC).

My previous post

cormac

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GGG, check my Saami of Lapland thread for in depth genetic followings I did, with cormac, from that split at 7000BC - there's afew things probably I now think I got wrong but generally it should be workable. Back soon to answer a couple of other things in your post.

Edited by The Puzzler
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it's late here but I do a quick reply. I'm not suggesting that a Buryan tribe of Siberia went to Spain at the DNA dates implied through a DNA timeline. I have read the other post you refer too, and do agree with the analysis therefrom. But even if these are the earliest dates of a region, coulldn't late migrators migrate therefrom at mich later dates too, to imply millenniums later? My effort involves people that have evolved enough as Modern Humans, well removed from cave man types, and would have to actually have a name for their tribe, and be able to record this, or related factors such as myths, dieties, and symbols, locational names on caves, rivers and miuntains, and therein, allow us a way to trace such a tribe - with any known and genuine name, or a translation therefrom.

I know my Buriano Italy dates are well out of scope for a 6000 BC date, and Etruscans fall short likewise. However, if I put these on the table, and timeline them, than we know what this name means in a region, and thus, as is the case here, we know how to manage it. My claim is that they can be of a Burjan/Buryan tribe as Colonna de Buriano, and likely started at the Netherlands at ~200 AD as Lombards. But then hoe did they get here. I claim as Fir Bolg and likely Eburones. And who are they, and where did they come from. Can be Burgundians (Burjans), Bornholm Island, Dacians (from Daci - daos - wolf), or Buri-Dacians Romania. Were at Trojans dates of ~1200 BC now. And where did they come from?

Now Puzzler's date of 6-5,000 BC and the ruins off Sicily, on the island called Pantelleria will suffice to acheive this DNA date line in Iberian Spain, which I see as congenial. It also Claims Iberians, but I think some see this name as a s "culture name", and perhaps I'm wrong to associated it to a tribal name. Then there is the issue of Iberia Caucasus, and whether or not they are the same Iberians in Spain. I'm not exactly sure, but may be able to make the case.

My major concern however is the Norse "Buri", and "Audumia". Who was the progenitor of these myths, and what date, and exactly where on the map at this date. And, where did they bring these concepts from? In theory, one should be able to assemble the answer for these basic questions, and DNA should comply. If not, something is wrong with some part of the analysis. For my tribal "name" type analysis, DNA is generally millenniums earlier than my historical data seems to be, except for Siberia, where I don't have an accurate date specific to my tribe and name origins - which I claim is here, or perhaps India, or Central Asia at about 10,000 BC. This has to do with domestic dogs, horses, religion (shamanism), Afro artifacts at 25-22,000 BC Lake Baikal, and the "Eternal Blue Sky" creation myths. I have stepping stones to get to Europe from here, such as Bashkotostan, and Tengra as Sumerian god Dinger. We could say Saami came out of Spain or Gaul at such early dates, but did they bring these gods and practices from here at this time, with them. I really doubt this second part, which I see as overwhelmingly Siberian in context, including their tree of life, and tambourines. It's also not my fault tambourines are also used in Egypt. In fact, on Ptolemy's maps you'll find that the Lugi-Buri is also given as a French Bouri, and in facts a Burian from Italy in France is also as Bourges, I've read. I have a few references to this type of translation.

I've worked the Iberians in Spain for some time, and although I read dates like 5,000 BC, I haven't been able to fully assimilate this, but Puzzler's link to the Island puts this closer to reality yet. I have lots of data to maybe assimilate a Burjan tribe into this envelope. On the Pelasgian question, I think they are Hyperboreans, and they are Buryan/Burjans, in my opinion. The name Palasgian is of a personal kings name Palasgus, thus, not a tribal name according to what I know about this name.

Doesn't the DNA allow a Siberian part to Saami? Or, did Buryans start in Europe, become Saami, and then migrate to Siberia, too. I always have to consider back migrations (something that is troublesome with DNA as its always so linear in territorial directions. Not saying its wrong at such early dates, but seems illogical to me for this very reason. On the other hand, DNA is getting rapidly an improved, and more mature science, and these back migrations has raised issues even to DNA counter-type theories. I see a version of this concerning south Ukraine. DNA is also a bit shy on specific tribal names. So far, DNA has worked out OK for ny personal analysis relative to Bohemia, but also to most of my theory, which involes tribe names, and later dates in general. To trace this tribe is counter intuitive to most historians, but they haven't studied this tribe close enough, so this type of comment is without merit, and out of context. I hope we see that mountain names mean a whole lot more to those ancient people that named some of them, and a berg isn't just a rock, is it? Man was made from this rock (clay) according to Hyperboreans, if I have this right. Whats the earliest date for this concept? What date did the stars become the Milky Way as a zodiac?

I think the DNA is yet premature to actually answer our questions fully. Our histories should comply real good as a minimum, in my opinion. I also agree that I struggle with this science, but I really have worked years without DNA analysis, so I'm content with my historical data points, and I think DNA is compliant thus far to a 1st order approximation. I had a statistician tell me once - "I can prove anything with statistics". This means statistic models have be characterized correctly (to mean, with the appropriate math functions) if one expects a reliable answer after testing is sampled. Not so simple with DNA samples on a complex helix. None-the-less, I think DNA is very good right now, and dirt cheap, to suggest, everyone should do this test. I did the yDNA so I could analyze my data model, and compare it to global data, I was already aware of, that I previously collected prior to my test. This really blew me away, and it actually used the word Siberia twice in the report, albeit the simpler 12-str test, that I've now upgrated to a 67-str test. Its a good thing to do if you've done global name tracing, then have this "blind test" with DNA to see if your model agrees, or not. Most people don't have this, so you just have to take their word for it on the test report. Its nice to have corroborating research historical data, because it only take moments to compare results.

I think the surname Ochoa in Basque has a wolf ingredient, but don't know the etymology yet on the translation. I'll try to keep up with the pack, but some of these questions and regions are tough to describe. Again, I'll try to keep my framework simplified because I wnt others to understand the overall concept I think I can support, Then you can compare to your other concepts for conceptual fit. I try to give a ground data point, or artifact in support of the idea brought forward. Remember, data out of scope to a data line time period still needs to be known, otherwise, it will show up later, and you'll have to figure it out anyway. One just needs to weight it for merit, then shelf it in the proper perspective. I'm providing these dates as best I can concerning regions we discuss. Some dates I don't know yet. I will usually state this in blogs, or the degree of certainty to a date, or what I cal a textbook date, such as the Iron Age, or the Trojan War, whether or not this really was a war, or in England vs. Anatolia. Again, in its proper perspective.

Again, the island Pantelleria, and Phoencians I see as critical part to link to the East, and Egypt, to Spain, as the attachment had suggested. This is likely the earliest date we will have for historical Spain, and manuscripts. I suggest ant earlier dates will likely be from DNA, or Neanderthal remnants. Working my tribe at 5000 BC is quite a chore, but I'm nit blind, and I have some possible resources to entertain the region. I have yet to model this in, somehow. I suspect an Egyptian part intuitively as my first step to the Aegean, and Lebanon perhaps. Essentially Phoencian roots. Great fun. See if this helps center my thinking and approach in this Iberian/Basque region. I'm open to any and all new ideas. Thanks for the insight, GGG guy.

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659px-Etruscan_pendant_with_swastika_symbols_Bolsena_Italy_700_BCE_to_650_BCE.jpg

It was found in Bolsena and dates quite early, to 700BC. Obviously note the swastika - a very square shaped one. People have various ideas on what it means and is often seen as a symbol of the seasons change, time. The city of Bolsena, as Volsinii is the home of the God Voltumna, who became Vortumnus in Roman mythology. He is in charge of the SEASONS - so it occurred to me the swastika motif could relate to him, the pendant could be recognising Voltumna.

A bit like Saturn, but also note his connection to gardens and fruit trees, which then makes me think of the Garden of Eden and it's apple tree and the whole concept of 'God'.

Etruscan Volsinii (Velzna or Velusna; or sometimes in Latin Volsinii Veteres – Old Volsinii) appears to have been one of the most powerful cities of Etruria, the cult centre of the god Voltumna, and was doubtless one of the 12 which formed the Etruscan confederation, as Volsinii is designated by Livy[9] and Valerius Maximus[10] as one of the capita Etruriae ("heads of Etruria"). It is described by Juvenal[11] as seated among well-wooded hills.

In Roman mythology, Vertumnus — also Vortumnus or Vertimnus — is the god of seasons, change[1] and plant growth, as well as gardens and fruit trees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volsinii

Not only that but this city, the richest in Tuscany appears to have a record of "a bolt from Mars falling on Bolsena" - interesting to me, to say the least.

While it is fairly certain that the city is the successor to the ancient Roman town of Volsinii (sometimes termed Volsinii Novi – New Volsinii – to distinguish it from the Etruscan city), scholarly opinion is sharply divided as to whether Volsinii was the same as the ancient Etruscan city of Velzna or Velsuna (sometimes termed Volsinii Veteres – Old Volsinii), the other candidate being Orvieto, 20 km (12 mi) NE. George Dennis pointed out that the town of Bolsena has no Etruscan characteristics; for example, Etruscan cities were built on defensible crags, which the hill on which the castle is situated is not. The Roman historian Pliny the Elder said[2] that a bolt from Mars fell on Bolsena, "the richest town in Tuscany" and that the city was entirely burned up by this bolt. The population moved to another site, which Dennis thought was Bolsena. The new city was named after the old, hence Roman Bolsena has an Etruscan name. Dennis suggests a number of crags in the area including Orvieto but does not favor Orvieto on the grounds that it is too far away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolsena

I was trying to work out what Voltumna name might mean - keeping in mind it transfers through to Vertumnus - it must be a word where volt became vert - it must correspond to the swastika picture which I denote as Voltumna - as seasonal change - a Saturn type God

Here's what I found:

Re-vert', v. a. (Lat. reverto) to change, to turn to the contrary : to reverberate. Re-vert' ... Re-volt', v. n. (Fr. rcvolter) to fall ossfrom one to another ; with from and to

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=g3gKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PT580&lpg=PT580&dq=volt+vert+etymology&source=bl&ots=ZIHXi3PvZm&sig=s6zCW1EWLGJZ_wydFtPaHKvO5cg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-fNlT9j2O4_FmQWmmaGRCA&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

This indicates a meaning that will lead to 'to turn' - to change back and forth - the RE makes it specifically turn back, so vert and volt are just one way really... 'to be'= volt/vert - just to be - going on...

This imo is an exact representation of what I'd expect - the seasonal change - the turning of time - revolving - which is what they say the swastika could mean.

This word might stem from a Uralic language.... (like Paabo thought Veneti might also)

From the same Uralic root *wole- as Finnish olla and Hungarian volt.

Verb

olla

1.Da-infinitive of olema

Finnish

From the same Uralic root *wole- as Estonian olema and Hungarian volt.

olla

1.(copular): To be (indicating that the subject and the complement of the verb form the same thing).

Estonian

From the same Uralic root *wole- as Finnish olla and Hungarian volt.

Verb

olema (da-infinitive olla)

1.to be

Catalan

Noun

volt m (plural volts)

1.turn, round

2.volt

Spanish

From Latin olla.

Noun

olla f (plural ollas)

1.a pot or pan; a kettle

2.a stew

3.a pool, a whirlpool

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/olla

The question is to me, does Finnish olla and Latin olla share a common background meaning - which comes through in Voltumna - to turn constantly - to be...?

pots, jars, cinerary urns, then vault is a close word, meaning a tomb for some, like a comparison to life and death - to turn, our life compared to seasons, then the word transfers through to cremation...something strange going on. The circles of the Suns really do appear to be the circles of Atlantis too, 3 canals, mound in the middle.

Here's a word with a vert etymology: (Latin vertere)

versus mid-15c., in legal case names, denoting action of one party against another, from L. versus "turned toward or against," from pp. of vertere "to turn," from PIE *wert- "to turn, wind," from root *wer- "to turn, bend" (cf. O.E. -weard "toward," originally "turned toward," weorthan "to befall," wyrd "fate, destiny," lit. "what befalls one;" Skt. vartate "turns round, rolls;" Avestan varet- "to turn;" L. vertere (frequentative versare) "to turn;" O.C.S. vruteti "to turn, roll," Rus. vreteno "spindle, distaff;" Lith. verciu "to turn;" Gk. rhatane "stirrer, ladle;" Ger. werden, O.E. weorðan "to become" (for sense, cf. turn into); Welsh gwerthyd "spindle, distaff;" O.Ir. frith "against").

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=versus&allowed_in_frame=0

Note the comparable words - TO TURN - turned toward - fate - destiny - what befalls one - even SPINDLE, DISTAFF ( I know that will take me places) - to become.

To turn as I said is equal to Saturn as well. Saturn was the seasons and this Voltumna would be his equal imo. The swastika should imo represent this concept and be his name meaning. Saturns wife was Ops (plenty) she is also Rhea.

------------------

Villanovan Cremations- biconical or

hut shaped urns; Cremation, Biconical Urns

Early trench graves; Mostly cremation

7th Century Tumulus II

(Tomb of the Beds and Sarcophagi)

Tomb of Regolini Galassi

Tomb of the Hut

Tomb of the Five Chairs

Tomb of the Painted Lions Tomb of the ducks (anatre),Veii

The Campana Tomb,Veii

http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/tombs.html

------------------

Ducks feature heavily in Etruscan art, wondering what the ducks could mean I found something a bit odd imo...

This word replaced Old English ened/ænid "duck", possibly to avoid confusion with other Old English words, like ende "end" with similar forms. Other Germanic languages still have similar words for "duck", for example, Dutch eend "duck" and German Ente "duck". The word ened/ænid was inherited from Proto-Indo-European; compare: Latin anas "duck", Lithuanian ántis "duck", Ancient Greek nēssa/nētta (νῆσσα, νῆττα) "duck", and Sanskrit ātí "water bird", among others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck

Not only does it sound like Veneti/Eneti/ened it also says AEnid and Latin anas, could this reference Aeneas and the Aeneid...??? Ducks, they SAILED to Etruria, in boats, like ducks would float on the water - which were often decorated as ducks in Etruria and all manner of drinking vessels and vessels in general are duck shaped...hmmmm - I'll sleep on it.

Edited by The Puzzler
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I have a web page that can define this duck, and as Hyperboreans, but as Ligurians, and on the River Po. I guess you noticed the duck on the Slavic Zodiac I attached. This image is poor quality, and the artifact is eroded, so I can't say for sure whats implied by this god Svarog, or relation to ducks in a Slavic pantheon. I think this explantion relative to a swan called Cycnus, Cygnus (in Latin) will suffice for our answer to this quandary concerning the medallion symbols.

CYCNUS : Prince of Liguria & the Hyperborean swan ; Greek mythology : KYKNOS

If their reference to Lydia is correct, then the story of Tyrrhenus would allow both a Lemnos Isle, and Etruscan solution, and be in Po Vally as Hyperboreans, The swan is also related to Bulgaria/Romanian river, the name slips me right now.

Lydia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tyrrhenus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On the Rome founders, I see some duality. The N. Etruscan had different burials, as grave crypt stones, and the S. Etruscan as cremation. I see their 1st kings as Etruscan, but which version? If Aethenor is a southern Roman, then he would connect to the south oracle folks, and thinks ties to the early port Bari, and therein can be Liburnian connections to Bari Italy (basically in the south end on the Adriatic), and Greek, relative to oracle of Delphi. Herein Bari is in Apulia region or province ultimately, and Apollo's temple is at Delphi's cave as well. I see both elements as founders of Rome, in this way.

In light of these attachments, the Etruscan date of ~1200BC is contrary to a Greek Trojan war date, as enemies, if Lydians are Trojans, and I would claim, in part also of Phrygia. Tyrrhenus is also of this date in Lydia, where, due to drought and famine, one half of the Lydians left because the population grew too large, and they couldn't feed everyone. Tyrrhenus, supposedly picked the straw, used to decide which half would leave to find a new home elsewhere, wherein, the outcome meant his half was destined to leave, therein. I see this as complacent to our thinking on the Etruscan Medallion, even allowing for your seasonal description, due to the swan's seasons. I would also chance the etymology of the word swan may work better on this, than would the word duck. I don't really know.

There is yet another factor on the early Rome, as I've read it was an early mine. If true, I'll speculate that the ancient villages called Suburra, and Germalus, on the Palantine hill area were a mine, and Suburra would be my approximation of the miner tribe. Cuold be Subarians of Asis minor, if I stretch the speculation. I can say that Germalus holds a date of ~ 950 BC, but I have little for reference on Suburra at early times. I'm not suprized I read about this early mine of the region, nor this name. I need more to support these definitions to specific tribe involved, and where they came from? I see this as workable from fundamental principles, as I've put forth.

Suburra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Etruscans are miners. That's the way the ball bounces, and I can't make all of this up. People could have lived here, and a group of miners shows up from elsewhere, and teaches these Suburrans (us this a fair word) how to mine, and forge metals. Not to be greedy with these factors, and just claim everything. I hope we can see how mountains, metal gods, and myths are webbed into the historical fabric, and I have these associations to reconcile. Many of them. I'm having great luck in the historical arena, but again, all factors need to be scrutinized fully to enable forward momentum and solutions. I just want to play fair, and believe any results are categorically tenable, realistic, have supporting evidences, and are a best choice given all factors, at least the ones we realize.

Again, I thick at the time of Rome's founding, this duality is my current best approximation. The wolf of Romulu and Remus is most certainly related to Turkish Asena she-wolf goddess, as the two stories mimic each with such a good fit, I don't think there is much room left to squirm in. That's my current opinion concerning Italy, and Ligurians in particular. I think a Liburnian tumulus grave would be a more North Italy burial type. Also, the Po, as in Poseidon seems to rear its face again. What does it mean?

There is also a coat of arms (CoA), as Hungarian, of the noble name Burgyan, and it also exhibits a swan, and an arm holding a sword. Maybe I can understand their CoA better now, I think. This name is also tell-tale signs as a tribe name in origin, if you asked me.

Otherwise, one would wonder, why is a duck on someones CoA? Seems so stupid of a symbol, hardly a sign or symbol of chivalry, or knighthood warrior in my 20th century way of thinking. I try to follow the data if I can actually pull this off. I'm also an optimist, as pessimism doesn't produce results. Pessimism though is required to obtain realistic, and I contend, more accurate results. This is why I'm testing my theory in these blogs, and I'm equally skeptic on various forms of the reseach, but seek new leads and logic to overcome these difficulties. I think all data is good, but has to be weighted well. I also use the term "ground truth", not to imply the term "fact", but to provide a "real location", or "real recorded tribal name", as a way to say, this is here and part of an analysis. I think this may help in some of my ways, and I too, am skeptical on my own theory, equally so. That doesn't mean though that I have this perfect historical package, but only that it appears that this tribe was part of the histories I relate, and I do have some evidence/s to support the approximations I place on the table.

Thanks for the patience. I want to bracket in my logic better for all bloggers herein. I don't think I'm completely lost, but may need some revisions to model the real derivations more accurately. I'm not sure on Druids, Basque, Brittany, Portugal, or Spain-Iberians. I do have some data, and hopefully some cultural elements, and professions to allow a more detailed analysis, to that end. Hopefully, others will find connections I've yet to entertain. I see this already, and will answer questions to the best I can, and add speculation as appropriate, according to my base model, and key tribe analysis. I try to indicate limits, but difficult to express all factors in on sitting. I hope my work will give us a second look at these locational histories, and perhaps a global model within these concentric local studies. I think my model is working pretty good, but a lot is yet needed. I'm taking a very large bite in historical terms!

I think were moving forward. Thanks again Puzzler as I always gain insight from your blogs. Maybe you could bracket in your area of interest for us/me. Maybe I can target more for your side of inquiry? Some of the myths read like Alice in Wonderland to me. I'm forever at odds with them, but my baseline thinking is actually working quite well. I'm elated, and intend to expand in this area. My tribe name is in many myths, if I'm correct, and I have a global tribal coin book too, because they are miners, I think. These two factors become very real, in the world of myths. This I'm reasonably certain of. Metal gods, akin to Excalibur. People should be able to relate to such a sword, even if my lego-linguistics is absolutely wrong for the word Excalibur, therein, be able to think as the ancient miner. Maybe the "real" tribe name will surface from this, in a more concise way, that is more believable. I wanted to clarify these additional factors, because I think it addresses several of the concerns.

Also Puzzler, I believe it was your definition, "to go around", to drill, to bore (a hole, as in mining), where to go around can be also Draco, going around the pole star. This may aid the swastika explanations in the Etruscan medallion attached herein. They should be of the tamga Draco of Romanian, and/or Bulgarian-Thracian territories. Or, Buri-Dacians, at Burridava. The mountain here was also called "Metal Mountain" where Sarmizegetusa ring structure lies, and a large rock sun-disc platform. Trajan of Rome stole all their gold. See - Trajan's Column - in Rome. Also, your reference to Rhea (Greek) I recall is similar to Kabeiro (Phrygia-as Mother Earth Goddess) in function. This is my take for now, GGG guy.

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I'm still out on the term duck for Aeneas or Aeneid but their another name that could mean duck - that is Penelope - Odysseus wife. It could mean weaver also, which is what they say it means but how about this connection of weaver AND duck...

duck (n.2) "strong, untwilled linen (later cotton) fabric," used for sails and sailors' clothing, 1630s, from Du. doeck "linen cloth" (M.Du. doec), related to Ger. Tuch "piece of cloth," Dan. dug, O.Fris. dok, O.H.G. tuoh, all of unknown origin.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=duck

The origin of her name is believed by some like Robert S. P. Beekes to be Pre-Greek and related to pēnelops (πηνέλοψ) or *pēnelōps (*πηνέλωψ), glossed by Hesychius as "some kind of bird"[3] (today arbitrarily identified with the Eurasian Wigeon, to which Linnaeus gave the binomial Anas penelope), where -elōps (-έλωψ) is a common pre-Greek suffix for predatory animals;[4] however, the semantic relation between the proper name and the gloss is not clear. Pēnelopē (Πηνελόπη) is usually understood to combine the Greek word pēnē (πήνη), "weft", and ōps (ὤψ), "face", which is considered the most appropriate for a cunning weaver whose motivation is hard to decipher.[5] Alternatively, the derivation pēnē and lepō (λέπω), "peel", because of the shroud-unweaving mytheme, has been suggested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penelope

It actually makes alot of sense that Penelope's name means duck - because was she a weaver as a child when named? No...

Penelope's parents were Prince Icarius of Sparta and the nymph Periboea. Periboea hid her infant daughter as soon as she was born, knowing that Icarius had wanted a son. As soon as Icarius discovered the baby girl, he threw her into the sea to drown. However, a family of ducks rescued her. Seeing this as an omen, Icarius named the child Penelope (after the Greek word for "duck") and raised her as his favorite child.

http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Pa-Pr/Penelope.html

Edited by The Puzzler
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Some kind of bird - how about the Phoenix, which might have been a duck..?

Jewish mythology includes the story of the hoyl—a bird that, like the phoenix, is devoured by divine fire only to rise from its own ashes.

http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Be-Ca/Birds-in-Mythology.html

Sounds like a description of Troy and how Aeneas escaped - a Phoenix bird description was Troy - devoured by divine fire and it did rise from it's own ashes - and the 400 year gap is there too since Rome is really only acknowledged around 400 years after Troy. Not only that but the whole mess was started by the laying of an egg (Helen by Leda) Maybe it was just more poetic to use swans instead of ducks...

GGG, I found this too:

Birds appear in some myths as earth divers. An earth diver is an animal that plunged to the bottom of the primeval sea and brought up mud from which the earth was formed. Legends of the Buriat and Samoyed people of Siberia feature birds as earth divers. Water birds such as ducks or swans play this role in the creation myths of many Native American peoples,

Read more: Birds in Mythology - Myth Encyclopedia - Greek, god, story, legend, names, ancient, animal, snake, war, norse http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Be-Ca/Birds-in-Mythology.html#ixzz1pWBjxbNo

I know a fair bit about the swan and I am not happy to mix ducks and swans really. But since Aeneas Mother is Venus and she is always associated with the swan, I can see how they could be mixed in some circumstances.

Look closely next to Ralna (on the end, top row)... (this is the Divine Mirror from Etruria, with the story of Helen of Troy on it).

Deities.GIF

Hoyl (Jewish phoenix type bird) sounds rather like Troy in the word itself.

------------------

The story of Cycnus by the way screams to me of a Hyperborean origin for the Ligurians.

Edited by The Puzzler
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avatar1.jpgA layman question, keeping your lego linguistics aside

Oh geez, 6 posts and we are already spouting the 'lego linguistics' term.

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With Dardanus as son of Elektra, daughter of Atlas - I can almost guarantee they will be from the Atlantic area. They went to Troy and settled from the Adriatic though imo, after moving into the Adriatic from Western Europe.

This is what I eventually hope to be able to show.

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My strongest line is that Aquitaine (Aquitani being a Basque cousin) was also known as being the southern part of Amorica - which is where the Veneti were - then the transfer of the Veneti into the Venetian plain of Italy - then these Veneti migrated to Pamphlagonia near the Black Sea and came back after the war and claim they are Trojan ancestors through Antenor - hence their mare breeding on the Venetian plains as a connection they said they shared with Trojans.

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We can have the whole Trojan War in Amorica, Brittany and Western Europe if you like...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_Troy_Once_Stood

The trouble with Wilkins theory, even though he knows too that it's more than obvious they are not Anatolians - is that it seems too early to have a Celtic war as he is claiming.

Proto-Celts maybe.

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I would expect language to have merged and changed and been infiltrated by IE anyway, so finding the original Basque roots will be hard, I don't doubt that.

The problem is, everyone is so set in the current PIE paradigm, which are MADE UP WORDS FROM A MADE UP PEOPLE. That's pretty good science isn't it? :wacko:

Don't forget I've been in the OLB thread for a long time now and much of that is devoted to language, I've researched my fair share and maybe know more than you all give me credit for.

This afternoon I studied over the list of Basque words I have looking for more clues.

I had Ur as water.

Ibai as river ie; Iberia (both Caucasus and Iberian)

Ili as city (Ilium)

Haran as valley with derivatives of Aran from that.

Now, I was looking at Phrygia, they come from the Balkans, what were these 'I' types speaking? They say Phrygian is IE, maybe it is because it too was taken over by Greek speaking people...like Greece itself.

The Basque word for CART is GURDI. Gordium was the city of Phrygia, named because Gordias stopped his CART there, the name of this city Gordium imo means cart and comes from gurdi - cart.

Just because the Phrygian language was apparently mutually unintelligable to Troy means nothing and I wonder how true that is when Hecuba, Priams wife was Phrygian and other known connections. It's important not to see this as very black and white too - the people are split, smaller tribes of these large groups, who we tend to lump together.

Before you go off looking for gurdi in another language it's Basque through and through -

It includes indigenous Basque words relating to agriculture, wheeled vehicles and metallurgy, such as shepherd (artzain), millet (artatxiki - formerly arto), wine (ardo), cart (gurdi), wheel (gurpil from *gurdi-bil, meaning cart-round), smith ([h]arotz), iron (burdina), lead (berun), gold (urre), and silver (zilar or urre-zuri - literally "white gold").[8] The most common Basque words for tin (eztainu), copper (kobre) and bronze (brontze) are all borrowed from Romance. However it has been demonstrated that Euskara originally had its own words for these metals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Basques

A term used here is hurdy-gurdy for a merry go round. This would relate to going around like a cart wheel.

Edited by The Puzzler
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