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Trojans were Basques?


The Puzzler

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Thanks for your overview Puzzler. I tentatively agree with your overall assessment concerning the Veneti. I can say though that if Ligurians are Hyperboreans, than we are saying; they are of a mythical people, and of a mythical place. I say this because the Hyperboreans "capital city" seems unavailable for inspection.

The word Iberia, and a Basque ibai seems to fit into my quandary for the "bai" part of the Basque description. I have text wherein Baijan is equivalent to Burjan, in the name Azerbaijan, where Azer I believe may equate "fire", and Baijan being a Buryan/Burjan people. To back this idea, you have Siberian Lake Baikal, where the form "bai" is also used. I'm complacent with your approximations, and it just may be Buryan/Burjan people in Basque regions that actually spoke Basque. I've stated that I'm not so sure what language my tribe spoke, depending on era, and location. I also lack a definition for a Siberian word Baikal. However, the name Genghis Khan, from Chinngus, is said to mean "ocean", where Lake Baikal is perceived as an ocean to them likely because its so large in size-scale. He grew up here. Because he had a wolf nickname (unknown to me), I could also state I see a "chin" as wolf/dog, so I'm not totally in concert yet with these translation variants.

I also back-tracked on the Rome question as being a mining camp originally, and this was stated in the web page I previously attached concerning early mining, and the chapter on Italy. Thus, this is not my own assessment, but that of others.

The gold you reference in Basque also makes sense, as in the lowlands, panning of gold may have been the first version, and when panned out, you resort to the hills to find its source vein/s. Could be the same people, but where now, you only have actual mine remnants as evidence of early peoples, so the distribution on a configured regional map wouldn't necessarily include these other locations where surface, and panning of rivers was also employed. Historical text would have to fill this gap to realize the full extent of regional metal working.

I note that in your Basque words, iron is called "burdina". Silver as "white-gold". This I believe can all be related to meteoritic-iron as "holy metal". Burdina I would be related to my Buryan/Burjan tribe metallurgy, or, as Kabeiros cult folks.

I want to also re-address my translation for the sword named "Excalibur". My root source think for who these blacksmiths were doesn't change one iota, But, I think I can buffer my translation in a more acceptable way, and I think is also more accurate, if I am correct on this, or close to correct.

First, I'll state how this would read in Modern English; this sword Excaibur, is a gift of god, and charged with the spirit of god, such that, he who possesses it will be triumphant as the liberator for his cause, and his people.

Where; 1) "Ex " is equivalent to a runic "x" to mean "gift", and 2) "ca" to mean Egyptian "ka" spirit/soul, or "ka" Turkish for wolf/dog, or their wolf-spirit god or goddess, as in their Asena she-wolf goddess, 3) "libur" to liberate, or liberty.

To allow the word roots for liberty, I will reference the book I previously attached called "Archaic England", by Harold Bayley (of 1920's). Herein, he claims, and I'll quote; "Among the coins of Iberia some bear the inscriptions ILIBERI, ILIBEREKEN, and ILIBERINEKEN, which accord with Pliny's reference to the Iliberi or Liberini. Liber was the Latin title of the God of Plenty, whence 'liberal', 'liberty', 'labor', etc., and seemingly the 'Eliburs' or Liberins deified these virtues as attributes of the Holy Aubrey or the Holy Brain-King."

Thus, this translation I think is more proper, but the same underlying Kabeiros cult- Liburnian, and Iberian peoples, in my opinion, and they shoul be Iberians in Spain, and the miners that likely made the swords as well. All in concert with the Phrygian goddess Kabeiro goddess.

I should also state, that if Kabeiro/s is deified on Troas coins as I've attached, than this is ground to claim the Buryan/Burjan tribes would be Trojans, as evidence provided. There region by Mt. Ida can also be as territory called Burhan, that I see may link to Burkhan in Mongolia, or as Burkhan Khaldun, or God's Mountain.

I also agree with Puzzler's projections concerning Wilkens theory, that a Trojan War in England falls short for a proper European-Celtic type timetable. This appears to be the case for my key tribe research so far, but if the oldest mines are located on the soutnern side of Ireland, then this may lead to an early enough date to satisfy a 1200 BC time frame, in Cambridge England, for this event at Wilken's location. There are some old enough mines on these islands to satisfy his date, but I haven't identified evidence to identify such miners by name, nor place them into Cornwall. I think the Trojan War is mythical, my current position for a "Trojan War", but I'm not entirely finished with my research concerning this issue, so this is my position, for now.

See if this revised translation is more amenable for the word Excalibur. Interestingly, the term "Holy-Brain", can take on a new meaning Holey-Brain, no pun intended.

From this same book, I'll add another reference related to ducks, swans, and another we left out as "goose", and I'll quote; "There is a famous broch at Burrian in the Orkneys; near St. Just are the Parishes of St. Buryan and St. Veryan, both of which are identified with an ancient Eglosberrie, i.e., the 'eglis, close, or cloister of Berrie. (diagrams of swastika types of symbols labled as East and West regions, and as; Aynsley, Mrs. Murray), A berry is a diminuitive egg, and in some parts of the country gooseberries are known as deberries. 'De berry' seemingly means good or divine berry, and the prickly - 'pick' - character of the gooseberry bush no doubt added to the sanctity: from the word goosegog 'gog' was seemingly once a term equivalent to "berry'; a goose is often termed 'barnacle' - 'barn, and the phantom dog' - sometimes a 'bear' - entitled the 'bargeist' or 'barguest' was no doubt a popular degradation of the Hound of Heaven. Two hounds in a leash are known as 'brache', which is the same word as brace, meaning pair: in connection with the supposition that Brisons were originally prisons may be noted that these barnacles were primarily a pair of curbs or handcuffs."

At this point, i feel a bit liberated from my handcuffs, no pun intended.

I think gooses and Mother Earth eggs can also be traced to Mt. Alborz inscriptions with the bird/eagle, but can be similar to Mt. Elbrus in the Caucasus. I believe this is the ancestors for both the "Naval of Earth" and these birds and eggs. The "oak" would be my key tribe tree type, as is the case for Hyperborean Zeus, and Slavic myths. Herein, converse somewhat to Norse sacred tree species. I tend to agree that Indo-Irano (IE languages) is likely more post Iron Age in Europe for my key tribe, but I can't place the cart before the horse, and I'm in need of more refinement yet concerning migrations into Europe, which can have several avenues, thus, I won't over speculate, only to say, a post Iron Age event is the most realistic, so far, for this type of tribal name as Buryan/Burjan. This is one reason the stone constructions are a concern for me, because it predates Iron Age in European territories, so can my key tribe be connect to any of them remains unknown to me, but locational names, as the ones use by this author are none-the-less directly in concert with my tribes historical, so it seems.

Can someone actually make this up freelance? Maybe a goose could also work into the etymologies with birds, ducks, swans, and gooses. You Siberian-American Indian part is equally fascinating for my GGG "Grand Global Genome" concept I see as inevitable. This is why I'm attempting to elevate the visibility. I think it would be foolish to leave these factors off the table for the type of research we are attempting to unravel. I do think we are moving forward, and I think Puzzler is ahead of us in identification of these bi-directional migrations, and the Veneti in particular. But, to consider the fact, many tribes could do this, so one has to be careful on how real history really played out. All factors need to be compliant in my opinion.

My question is, did meteoritic iron enter Spain as Iberians around 6-5,000 BC, and can this be complacent with DNA, or, were they still in Asia Minor regions, or Egypt-Sumerian connections to meteoritic iron. Why would Basque people name iron as shown? Or, did iron reach their as the Iron Age in Europe, even by Buryan/Burjan allowing that they have no relation to the name Iberian, converse to Strabo's statements.

Great fun! I hope to hear about my "revised" Excalibur translation. Note I softened this, so we can keep a tribal name as transparent, or neutral. I think I know who the tribe is though, and I believe this second version to be more accurate as well. See what you think, and let me know, too, GGG guy.

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Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr - I just made a massively long post in answer to alot of your post GGG and got the server error and it didn't save - I'm so annoyed, I researched it for ages - back soon.

Just for now though, on Excalibur - I think you're definitely onto something - I'd consider the first part EX as this:

ex- prefix, in English meaning mainly "out of, from," but also "upwards, completely, deprive of, without," and "former;" from L. ex "out of, from within," from PIE *eghs "out" (cf. Gaul. ex-, O.Ir. ess-, O.C.S. izu, Rus. iz). In some cases also from Greek cognate ex, ek. PIE *eghs had comparative form *eks-tero and superlative *eks-t(e)r-emo-.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ex-

The key being the sword is IN the stone - he has to pull it out to get the actual 'spirit of liberty' from it.

Says this but the ex wasn't originally in the word - the story in French seemingly has created that word so it's meaning might be different to the original imo.

The name Excalibur apparently derives from the Welsh Caledfwlch which combines the elements caled ("battle, hard"), and bwlch ("breach, gap, notch").[1] Geoffrey of Monmouth Latinised this to Caliburnus (likely influenced by the medieval Latin spelling calibs of Classical Latin chalybs "steel"), the name of Arthur's sword in his 12th-century work Historia Regum Britanniae. Caliburnus or Caliburn became Excalibur, Escalibor, and other variations when the Arthurian legend entered into French literature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur

Edited by The Puzzler
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altai_flood

That's interesting - an idea:

From Lake Baikal, just above the Altai Mountains, c. end of ice age 9000-8000BC the rift moved and generated a massive earthquake that then created the subsequent flood of the Altai - this was a MASSIVE flood.

This may have generated a migration out of the area with some of the culture staying put there, in more unaffected areas - going on to still be the Siberians there - Buryats

The ones that left may have even contributed to the arrival of North AMericans in America - seems a fairly logical place to lead to Alaska via Bering Strait and since the Buryats are DNA related to North American Indians that would seem what happened.

Sami groups seem to also form part of this migration out.

Around 7000 BCE, people in Finland (Suomusj�rvi) begin to use pottery as do peoples in the region around Lake Baikal.

I have a feeling the name Buryat will stem from bear. This word will travel to Borr as 'son' - a bairn, 'a baby' in Celtic languages comes from the stem of bear - ancient people saw our own babies like baby bears.

Ursa Major. Finnish Kalevala mentions it so it would have been in their ancient heritage. Ursa Major was also pictured as a bear by the Jewish peoples. ("The Bear" was translated as "Arcturus" in the Vulgate and it persisted in the KJV.) - hence Arctic as you probably know - so to refer to the northern areas as a refernce to Bear is very logical. The people of the bear, of under the bear star living people - lol - that sort of thing. Sami dress in their best clothes to go hunt a bear.

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karhu seems to be bear in Finnish.

Another bird - the waterfowl

The world was believed to have been formed out of a waterfowl's egg exploding. The sky was believed to be the upper cover of the egg, alternately it was seen as a tent, which was supported by a column at the north pole, below the north star.

The movement of the stars was explained to be caused by the sky-dome's rotation around the North Star and itself. A great whirl was caused at the north pole by the rotation of column of sky. Through this whirl souls could go to the outside of the world to the land of dead, Tuonela.

Earth was believed to be flat. At the edges of Earth was Lintukoto, "the home of the birds", a warm region in which birds lived during the winter. The Milky Way is called Linnunrata, "the path of the birds", because the birds were believed to move along it to Lintukoto and back.

Birds had also other significance. Birds brought a human's soul to him at the moment of birth, and took it away at the moment of death. In some areas, it was necessary to have a wooden bird-figure nearby to prevent the soul from escaping during sleep. This Sielulintu, "the soul-bird", protected the soul from being lost in the paths of dreams.

Waterfowl are very common in tales, and also in stone paintings and carvings, indicating their great significance in the beliefs of ancient Finns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_mythology

This reminded me of the Etruscan pendant with the swastikas and ducks around the edge - I was wracking my brain trying to think what the ducks could denote...maybe the 'path of the birds'.

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Edit: I forgot to put this link in the post above this one, I'm sure you will find it interesting GGG.

http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/ABriefHistoryOfTheCircumpolarorth-AboriginalPeoples.htm

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Another edit: Just thought this was interesting, it really shows how volatile this place is.

http://theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com/2011/07/16/5-6-magnitude-earthquake-rattles-lake-baikal-in-russia/

ANother one:

In the early stages of rift origin the undercrust substance heated to plastic condition rose up to the surface along the breaks and flowed out as basaltic lavas. Volcanoes were active in the Baikal land (in the Tunka rift valley) in the early Neolithic age (8-9 thousand years ago).

Tectonic movements which caused the origin of Lake Baikal are going on now which is proved by high seismic activity of the whole Sayan-Baikal arch (vault) raise and by young seismotectonic breaches found in the mountain frame of Lake Baikal.

There are earthquakes up to force 10-11 in the Baikal land.

http://baikal-center.ru/en/books/element.php?ID=1505

Seems a likely place for a cataclysm myth to stem from, I know that.

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I decided to up grade a Siberian religion part so we can better understand why I hold the Buryan tribe origins in this region. These attachments will exemplify the importance of Lake Baikal, but also familiarize us to a Sibero-Mongol close ties, and a Tibetan-Buddha influence as is common today. I will also add Orkon script which would be my tribes likely 1st language, in principal. These web page are some older ones that still operate, that I drew parts of my GGG theory and model from concerning this tribe and name. I should note I'm complacent with the "wolf" tamga, and think I can carry this to Europe in several. Note the Volga River parts, and associated tribes. Also note the Buryats circular-ring dance used in cerominies (of their ancient ancestors).

I also reviewed Puzzler's data on the geography in the Lake Baikal regions, and the Altai regions, and I think the pages attached are real good ones, current as well. You can see from these why I think this name should attached to American Indians just from first priciples. Can this name be tied to Columbus of Liguria, in Genoa, where he grew up? Can he be a Lugi-Buri? Is Bure equivalent to Buri, and means "wolf"? Are Ligurians actually Hyperboreans, I contend are Burjans?

Does the Basque word "ibai" as Iberians have any relationship?

Soul of the World: Rafael Trénor: Vertices: Lake Baikal/Buryat

History of Buryatia (Ar Mongol) :: 네이버 블로그

For the Orkhon language. Gok-Turk would mean Blue Turk.

Old Turkic alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It may be the Bear Ursa Major and Wolf Draco may have both been placed under the pole star. Draco could be the India pole star type connections perhaps, or Sumerian Akkadian. The Bear is likely, as you say, likely more North-Finnic-Saami. I could extend this to Viking and Germanic, and a few others I think too. My thinking may make them as Karelians, but difficult for myself to fully ascertain. Bjarmaland makes the most sense to me, but tribe imo's aren't exactly clear. Bergen in Norway would also be high on the list because they celebrate the Boreas festival. I don't want to read into this with too much speculation, but allow readers to derive their respective thoughts on these factors. Maybe something will click.

To jump tracks, I leave the sword, and adopt the Battle Axe culture implement. Thanks for the info and thoughts on the Excaliber word. The battle axe should allow a Minoan, Mycenaean, and Liner B type language, and I would contend, the same people related to the locations, and Battle Axe culture in N. Europe. Same blacksmiths.

Labrys - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Personally, I think the name on this weapon is a dead giveaway as to who makes them. There are a rentless stream of these sorts of data points. See if this isn't so. Of importance here is the Amazons, and Caria. We'll have to relate back to this info soon. I let you draw your own evaluation as to weather or not this has attachments to Iberian Spain, or Gaul and Basque people.

Also, the bronze Etruscan mirror is interesting. I attribute these to Mongolia-Tibetan regions, and England. The Burrian's Stone in England exhibits an eagle, z-rod (which I think may reflect lightening), an upsidedown looking crescent moon, and a mirror. Its of early AD periods.

Orkneyjar - The Enigma of the Pictish Symbol Stones

There is also two versions of a Burrian's Cross. Here's one of them.

Burrian Cross Charm

Site Record for North Ronaldsay, Broch Of Burrian Burrian Broch; Strom Ness; Stromness; Burrian Brough Details

I wonder what the etymology is for Burrian? Is this fair? Are they wolf blacksmith's that inscribed these particular rock's, and named this Orkney location? I don't think I can answer this question with certainty even though the actual name seem rather obvious, at least to me. The version as Buryan, and Veryan in Cornwall isn't exactly so obvious?

Ibai, as Basque though, also seems so obvious.

The other cross is at St Buryans church yard, in Cornwall, and is otherwise a Celtic stone cross. It actually matches somewhat a druid artifact I have a picture of, but, I'll stick to the blog for now.

The idea that Liburnians were pirates doesn't hold. I say this, because pirates don't build their own boats, they steal them. Rome stole the Liburnian boats, and although it appears the Roman records are the ones that survived, Seems to me they were the pirates. However, at earlier times they can actually be, in part, the same people. No doubt, Liburnians ruled the Adriatic sea lanes, in their day, and perhaps had some pillagers during this period. Not exactly pirates though. They designed this vessel, a Liburna. Hardly pirates, in my opinion.

I also want to state the the port Quiburun in France harbored 200 "oak" type vessels (early AD periods I recall), and were described as Celtic-Scythian people, here at this time. Suggest a non-Basque peoples, but can allow other Aryans as Scythians from the East say Anatolia, or even the Far-East.

Key question for Crete is where their mint was, or where was the mint in the levant, in particular, by Beirut (Birytus), and Tyre was, a said Phoenician port. Are they really of Siberian tribes as I've read.? Maybe so. What Siberia brings to the Mediterranean is unfathomable to me. Perhaps they were slaves. They were slaves to Russian taters, I think that has been shown in early Russians mines. They don't seam like city builders and such, or they evolved, and perhaps were later. This is all very non-intuitive to me, but I do have data to support some of this stuff. My key tribe is good at finding historical gaps. This tribe doesn't change history, it just fills some of the historical vacancies, in my opinion. There are many of these loopholes available in actuality. You just can't look this stuff up.

Thanks again. I may need a day or too to review all the inputs, and devise some thoughts on them. Sorry my answer leads to Baikal for the ibai Basque word. This is why I ran my DNA.

Here's R1a DNA map. May help some.

Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA)

Note area of Norway, and our Siberian questions, and our Berber-Sami question. The differences in DNA players would be time line dependent for the R1b to be here as well, in Norway. I think we see this time spread to be millenniums wide. If we could bridge Spain-Iberia to Asia Minor around the 6,000 BC date, then perhaps the dual migrations are realizable? Thats my thought for now. One should have historical, lets say high confidence data, to make the case, or to support such an early date in Northern regions, due to the fact, this type of data is scarce to find here, as a minimum. Targeting data is usually quicker way to sort down. We should develope a few basic target questions related to geography. This could shorten search-result timetable.

I got to thinking, ducks migrate globally, and seasonally. So a traveler in the North territories may actually see the same duck species there, which he also sees in his home base country in the South, lets say the Black Sea. This would compel people to perhaps write these sorts of bird myths. Ironically, the Monarch butterfly does the same thing between Mexico and Canada., and perhaps elsewhere. Is there a "wolf" tribe in Bjarmaland regions with a tribal name? I may get lucky, if most are bear tribe tamga. This would save time in sorting this wolf tribe out from the mix perhaps.

I think this post is getting more interesting, even in light of my personal endevors. Its just damned interesting. Ligurians also have a bird in their symbols. I recall a Coat if arms, or Crest, where this shows up. Because of the associated myth, I think this is making sense now. I not settled on them as Hyperboreans euther, but I am as Lugi-Buri on Ptolemy's maps. His map Has Lugi-xxxx, and two other Lugi-xxxx's. These could be Hyperborean associated tribes, just not the Buri partner. Perhaps the split a few times? More later GGG guy. Enjoy.

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I'll start with Ligurians, I find them an extraordinarily interesting people and keep my eye out on everything about them. This is a post by someone else on another forum...

I've been thinking about these folks a bit lately because I've just read the late Roman era poem 'Ora Maritima' by Rufus Festus Avienus and he makes some curious statements throughout the manuscript by placing Ligurians in various places around western Europe from Iberia to Hibernia...

If you don't know anything about the 'Ora Maritima' (which I will review in another thread) apparently, Avienus meant for it to harken back into antiquity so his sources for discribing the Atlantic coast were ~1000 years old even in his time.

It has been my opinion for some time that Ligurians were in fact akin to the Iberians (most specifically Basques) and Avienus' comments seemed to shore up my feelings.

What I mean by this, is that as my understanding of the population and repopulation of Europe from the Pleistocene (Ice Age) into the Holocene (Stone Age) has improved, it seems increasingly likely that the reminants of the Magdalenian & Azillian cultures who had remained in the area stretching from northern Iberia (around the Pyrenees) to what was known as Liguria had remained ethnically intact in specific areas around the Pyrenees & Alps during periods of subsequent influxes of Indo-Europeans from elsewhere by clinging to the mountains.

That Avienus' sources would find similaity enough between people from these varying locals to call them all Ligurians speaks volumes as to how early in the 1st Millennia BC some of the accounts must have come from (i.e. before the 'Celtic Invasion')

In fact in one section Avienus even says that the Ligurians in the Alps had taken refuge in the mountains when the Celts arrived and that the ones he places in Hibernia-Albion (which we would know as the Picts) had fought so many wars with the Celts that they rarely came down from the hills.

http://www.unrv.com/forum/topic/2550-the-ligurians/

I'm going to add another post too:

That being said, the 'bloodline' that connects these groups of people (well the Iberians & the Irish for certain) is the Y-chromosome marker R1b (M343).

A couple of years ago when it was first realized that modern Irish display this marker in about ~90% of the population, the modern Spanish at ~80% (with it being over 90% in Basque communities) and substantially less in continental Europeans, the investigators had uncovered quite a pickle in regards to if the Irish should really consider themselves 'Celts' as they really are more akin to Neolithic hunter-gatherers who had been in western Europe for a much longer period of time.

This marker came about from gene mutation that occured in 1 male individual about 30,000-40,000 years ago and his hiers spread into Western Europe from somewhere in Asia. We know from ancient DNA sampling (bones, teeth, etc) that these people were the ones who left us the beautiful Magdalenian cave art during the Paleolithic throughout the area that I mentioned in the first post.

Then it seems that during the last glacial maximum, they took refuge almost solely in Iberia and when the ice receeded, it was groups of these R1b carrying individuals who moved north into into the British Isles & Ireland when it was still connected by land. Then the seas rose even more and cut them off for thousands of years until the true Celts showed up in small numbers. These (meaning the non-Celts) are your Picts (& modern Irish for that matter!) and also your megalith builders.

The ancestors of the Ligurians must have then spread back to the areas we find them in during the Classical period. Now, it seems from what I have read, the confusion comes in because since they were closer to the Indo-European (Celtic) onslaught, they adopted certain conventions of Indo-European speech and some customs much as the Celtiberians had, even though they remained genetically distinct; racially speaking. So by the period of written record, their true cultural affinities were unclear.

To answer the question in regards to what their linguistic affinities, I would have to conclude it would have been from the same family as Basque. Before it was corrupted and then replaced by Indo-European language(s) of course. We may never know for certain; just as it seems that Southern Iberian (Tartessian) before they adopted Latin should also be classified as such.

Ancient Ligurians may have had reddish hair like the Irish also, the Ligurians are described as having 'auburn locks'. I think this above, may just be correct. All that R1b in the Basques has me thinking and that second bolded part is exactly what I think happened to the language - hence I can find Basque words in areas that are known to be IE speaking populations.

I met a girl from Genoa once, a real beauty, looked like Simonetta Vespucci, she was most impressed I knew Columbus was from Genoa, I think most people think he was Spanish.

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How about this?... the Ligurians are also Lycians. Does that work for you? Lyc can be relative to wolf and see tribwatch (a website) is also onto it - the c and g are interchangable - cause I see Lycian temple tombs in Etruria and could the Ligurians be a branch of Etruscans even? Hmmm :huh:

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I was in a spelling B playoff in grade school, real good at it back then, and got the word "raiser", as, "he was raiser of crops". I responded, "r a z o r". The judges scoffed, and I heard their "correct" answer being raiser. Quickly realizing their explanation, I inquired, "someone has to cut crops down at harvest, don't they"? They quietly discussed this concept, and I lost the decision, and the playoffs. Perception is everything.

I found a web page to allow the early mining dates for Ireland, as well as dolmen dates, and other ancient connections to Ireland, Celts, Gaul, and Iberian. A breif page, but full of good dates in the most ancient Irish times. I could say that it appears they could have perahaps assembled the weapons "Bronze Age Ireland" which suggests Wilken's idea of a Cambridge Trojan War in England could have had the war materials, and ships to import tin, so I'm still out concerning his theory . The Irish tin, for bronze, was said to be connected to Cornwall as well. Ireland was said to have the oldest mines of Western Europe in General, and these dates, and tonnage of copper are impressive in comparison to what I've gathered thus far. I want to play out the miner concept because I think my concept has merit.

Prehistoric Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Consider this. If I'm a Central Europe West Bohemian, which I'm pretty certain is an Etruscan, albeit Lugi-Buri (Ligurian) part of a - theoretical - Hyperborean/Burjan Po River Valley tribal group, then my theoretical blood line would have a tribal split here, and my R1a would depart Northward to Austria-Bohemia, which is Noricum as N. Italy and S. Hungary back then, where a large assortment of mineral types, and ancient mines are also found. Noricum has unique and varied geological strata zones which provides numerous associated minerals and ores in various regions.

So, would this suggest a tribal split for a yDNA R1a haplogroup? And what would the haplogroup for the Lugi-Buri, or the Daci-Buri be? Or, are these just all the same people as R1a, I think we suggested a couple blogs back? Or, did both R1a and R1b both reside together as sister tribes of Central Asia, say millenniums earlier? Thus, they can have similar ancient beliefs and roots, say as Scythian-Aryans (IE types), thereafter migrate into Europe as sister R yDNA sub-sets, being R1a, or R1b repectively both in Liguria? Is Liguria an "exclusive" geographical-locational case? Its close to the borderline for European yDNA distrubution as R1a vs. R1b.

I've always thought truth to the phrase "birds of a color, flock together" suggesting that even if neighboring tribes are of different races, yet peaceful, they likely don't inter-marry much.

I'll back into these questions and see what I can find. Ironically, Ive always wondered about Ligurians, however, I'm catching on. You kind of work around this spot on the map. Likely due to all of the lore around its neighborhood. It kind of gets second base. I've been looking closer for a couple years or so now, and I think maybe I'm beginning to form a good base model for its imo.

I'm wondering if others saw a bird in that vintage Slavic calendar I attached. The relic is beat up, and the image is poor, but I see that Etruscan looking bird in the middle of it. Did everyone else see this? I need to get a better image of the relic, if I can find it. I also forgot to add Iran, for the Alborz mountain, and their bird-egg, naval of the world pantheon. The concept to be quite universal, similar as I claim for the wolf, and shamanism in general.

I'm curious yet as to the Basque word ibai. References for a bai are pretty scarce. This translation may allow another look at the word Iberian. Not simple to deal with at the ancient dates in this region for any geographical name, or any language sub-group here.

Be back soon. Need time to digest current data, thanks GGG guy.

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abona: Celtic/"river"

ibai: Basque/"river"

river

c.1300, from O.Fr. riviere, from V.L. *riparia "riverbank, seashore, river" (cf. Sp. ribera, It. riviera), noun use of fem. of L. riparius "of a riverbank" (see riparian). The O.E. word was ea (see aqua-).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=river&allowed_in_frame=0

An interesting site:

The south-east Azelians adopted agriculture from the Occitan-Roman speakers and took over in the process the PIE language. There, Azelian became Ligurian, now a PIE language. A number of substrate, Azelian words and place names, such as 'izara' (river : 'iz' =water + 'a-ra' = running) remained.

=

Para-Brythonic was taken over by the former Azelian speakers in central Gaul, Switzerland and a tiny part of northern Italy (south slopes of the Alps). 'Pure' Brythonic (as also spoken in Britain) became gradually confined to Brittany (Bretagne). Only the south (the Côte d'Azur) kept its Ligurian language (now a part of Occitan) for a longer time. Occitan expanded further to the west and would push Brythonic to the northwest. Basque lost gradually most of its territory.

http://www.proto-english.org/o2.html

Very tempting is to go to the Basque word 'izoz' = ice. What if the Basque language is related to Azelian? What if Azelian was a member of 'a' language family called 'the Basque language group'? The Germanic speaking farmers conquered the coasts of the North Sea and picked up a number of local words. 'Ice' is one of them. That new loan word would then be spread back up to the Black Sea where the Germanic speaking Bastarnae lived. After all, 'iz' is supposed to be an original 'pre-Celtic' (Azelian) word for water or river in Gaul and maybe in west Britain too.

=

The alternative Welsh word for the territory we call England today is Lloegr or Lloegyr ("Lloegr the lost land") in Welsh. The etymology of Lloegr has always been unclear. The Loire river in France was called Liger in Latin. Was it an Azelian word for lowland or (Thames?) valley? Or is Lloegr simply a Germanic loanword meaning lower (='lager' in Dutch, possibly 'loager' in Old English) land? Compare with 'Danes' : cognate in English is 'den' (=lair, low place), Danes were originally lowland people in Sweden, referring to the lowlands in the southern tip of Sweden.

The border of Lloegr is actually a bit more to the east, more from the Wash to the Solent. Stonehenge was no part of Lloegr.

The Cymry ("our people") regions remembered that England (well, the region of course) was once upon a time Azelian speaking. Most Azelian speakers had now changed their language into Brythonic. Only the inhabitants of England did not. They had adopted a specific form of Germanic: coastal Germanic. Brothers were no longer brothers. Lloegyr became the lost land. All that happened around 4500 BC.

http://www.proto-english.org/o21.html

Separately, there have been suggestions that Lloegyr was somehow related to Liguria, in coastal northwestern Italy, based solely on a perceived phonetic similarity. Some works that note it also dismiss it in passing, perhaps mentioning its lack of credibility.[23]

Invented meanings and etymologies continue to the present day, particularly in non-historical works, for example in a novelist's assertion that Lloegyr actually means 'lost lands'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloegyr

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Interesting post Abe, I need to absorb it better yet.

aqua- comb. element or prefix meaning "water," from L. aqua "water; the sea; rain," cognate with P.Gmc. *akhwo, source of O.E. ea "river," Goth. ahua "river, waters," O.N. Ægir, name of the sea-god, O.E. ieg "island;" all from PIE *akwa- "water" (cf. Skt. ap "water," Hitt. akwanzi "they drink," Lith. uppe "a river").

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=aqua-&allowed_in_frame=0

Aegir, an Old Norse God of water.... :unsure2:

water in Basque is ur - I love that one.

Old English - ea - that's an interesting one, not from a Basque connection but because the Akkadian and Babylonian God of WATER is Ea. Enki in Sumerian.

Seems fairly obvious this word is also the root for sea - even though they have no idea except a made-up proto word - sea O.E. sæ "sheet of water, sea, lake," from P.Gmc. *saiwaz (cf. O.S. seo, O.Fris. se, M.Du. see), of unknown origin, outside connections "wholly doubtful"

if ibai is pronounced ebay - the first part becomes a simple ee/ea sound - river - the sea was originally seen to be like a great encircling river, so sea imo would be logically from the root for river, which is also water, which became sea.

the s sound may have come from another word that has now been shortened so much to just an s sound. ie; 'sheet' of water - shé-ea - sea

Edited by The Puzzler
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Consider this. If I'm a Central Europe West Bohemian, which I'm pretty certain is an Etruscan, albeit Lugi-Buri (Ligurian) part of a - theoretical - Hyperborean/Burjan Po River Valley tribal group, then my theoretical blood line would have a tribal split here, and my R1a would depart Northward to Austria-Bohemia, which is Noricum as N. Italy and S. Hungary back then, where a large assortment of mineral types, and ancient mines are also found. Noricum has unique and varied geological strata zones which provides numerous associated minerals and ores in various regions.

So, would this suggest a tribal split for a yDNA R1a haplogroup? And what would the haplogroup for the Lugi-Buri, or the Daci-Buri be? Or, are these just all the same people as R1a, I think we suggested a couple blogs back? Or, did both R1a and R1b both reside together as sister tribes of Central Asia, say millenniums earlier? Thus, they can have similar ancient beliefs and roots, say as Scythian-Aryans (IE types), thereafter migrate into Europe as sister R yDNA sub-sets, being R1a, or R1b repectively both in Liguria? Is Liguria an "exclusive" geographical-locational case? Its close to the borderline for European yDNA distrubution as R1a vs. R1b.

I recommend you have a look at this website, it has great info and maps to explain the movement of European haplogroups.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

Edited by The Puzzler
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Burian Baby Name. Origin and Meaning of Burian

The Name Burian is a boy's name. It is 3 syllables long and is pronounced 'b(u)- rian '.

The name Burian or slight variations of Burian are seen in the origins Ukrainian, Russian

Meanings and Origins of the Name Burian.

Ukrainian Meanings of Burian (Male)- Dwells near the weeds

Russian Meanings of Burian (Male)- Lives near the weeds,

Burian has the following similar or variant Names: Berian Beriane Beryan Beryane Birian Biriane Buriane

http://www.mybaby.net.au/baby-name-full-detail/burian/7468/1

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In his studies, the abbot Dominique Lahetjuzan (1766-1818) came to the conclusion that the Basque language was the language spoken in the Garden of Eden. He showed how the names of the main chapters of the Book of Genesis were all Basque in origin and had their appropriate, specific meaning. For his theories, the abbot has been called one of the strangest characters of the theological era.

In 1825, the French abbot Diharce De Bidassouet wrote in his "History of the Cantabrians" that Basque was the original language spoken by God, a statement for which the abbot was soundly ridiculed.

At about the same period, the Basque priest Erroa stated that Basque was the language spoken in the Garden of Eden. His colleagues thought he was a lunatic, but Erroa was so deeply convinced of being right in his hypothesis that he caught the attention of the Bishop of Pamplona: he, conversely, directed his appeals to the Chapter of the Cathedral of Pamplona.

The ecclesiastical institution considered Erroa's theories and, after many months of deliberations, established that Erroa was right and publicly supported his theory. However, in a short time all the reports and the registry containing the ecclesiastical deliberations disappeared mysteriously.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_basques05.html

:ph34r:

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I found something I needed to find to connect up a loose end.

Many studies on the Basque people stress how deeply they are different and separated from other cultures. However, if we look closely we can see this is not completely true. In ancient times the Basques were known to the Greeks, who called them Ouaskonous (the people of the he-goat), due to their habit of sacrificing goats to their gods.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_basques05.htm

The he-goat is a Ram (as well as a billy or buck).

A male goat is called a ram or billy, and a female is called a doe or nanny.

http://www.squidoo.com/goatfarm

Because I was really going for the name Aquitaine being named after the goats (AK) but I didn't have much evidence of why they might call themselves this.

That name OuASKonous is probably the root for the term 'Basque'.

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In the Ukraine, burian is a generic name used for weed type field growth. Said this way - any growth that a field animal like a cow won't eat, is woody and thorny like briar, and can be thick enough where a Cossack and his horse can hide behind it.

In Serbia (if my memory is still godd) is a settlement (I recall late 1800's) as a land grant for volunteers to settle some burian scruff land. This land is hostile, and I don't think it ever was, nor is this small village of this name, very successfully developed. So there is merit to a burian weed, as such. The Burian (Burjan) tribe is recorded on the N. Black Sea, likely neighboring the Thracian domains. I think they may be the same people. I think Serbia was part of the Soviet Union when this attempt to populate otherwise partly fallow land. Today, Russia wouldn't be part of this domain. Very difficult to find this kind of info, and, I don't know if this small village still exist. Doubtful from the descriptions and few images I saw years back. And, the Russian's gave everyone "free" hand tools to work the land. I think there are some vast areas of the Steppe that is difficult to work commercially, this would qualify as one of them. The roots to the "burian" name in this form are unknown to me, and this date doesn't allow more depth, but will answer the question as such. A Burian name has an assortment of possible descriptors, but seem detached, or uncommon to one another.

I've read also, that if your from the tribe Buri, then your a Burian. Seems logical to me. This is why I'm backing into the Norse god Buri. Because I read the Buri tribe's name was the same as this god Buri, I recall claimed by them. This may be the only way to get a Buri god from 1st pricipals because the Icelandic records, or any others are pretty slim for content. I'm certain the Buri tribe was the one in the Gladiator movie ~170AD. Those folks. And the wolf in the movie too.

For the name Aquitaine, the Thracians are considered one holder of the Eagle tamga. In Italy this is called aquila, as an eagle looking symbol standard for their special legionary division/s. I believe it was Augustine ~100BC that incorporated the white eagle as Rome's new symbol (Augustine Palace, in Central Rome, on Palantine Hill, and Rome as the "city of seven hills" collectively). I've read that Draco and Thraco adds to the double eagle, as in America. I believe the oldest double-headed bird inscriptions is with the Hittites. A Buri-Daci would qualify as the Draco part of this, and perhaps both parts, as Burjan's were said to like Thracian women, for what its worth. I haven't really taken this on much yet, but a real curiosity.

Aquila (Roman) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Could this be considered a Roman held precinct in Gaul, when this name was devised, or first used as such? I haven't read this attachment yet, as its late here, but I'll give 51-49% odds something will go on with yet another bird type.

I think ibai in Basque could possibly mean bay. Related to a port activity. I've had this notion for Baikal in Siberia, but haven't deciphered their linguistics.

Norse Girl Names, Bergthora

Here's a name with a Berg, and a Thora, which may be Thor's sister as I've read these two names as brother-sister, but unsuccessful in attempts to cross verify this. Strange that it is a girls name here, and Norse. Thora's mountain?

See what you think, GGG guy.

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The Pyrenees are dotted with sacred sites: caves, springs, wells, valleys and mountain peaks. The mountains and the valleys were thought to be the abodes of divinities and Genies: the earth was believed to contain beautiful landscapes and green valleys hidden to mortals. The most famous of all these sites is probably a plain named Akelarre in the province of Navarra. The name comes from aker, he-goat and larre, pasture.

For hundred of years, this place was connected to witchcraft and it has been probably chosen as the place where to celebrate ancient rituals and sacrifices. The Church has eradicated any information related to the pagan religion of the Basques, and has even denied the existence of such rituals. However, the Greek geographer Strabo reports beyond doubt that sacrificing goats was a ritual crucial in the religious beliefs of the Ouaskonous.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_basques05.htm

Such Egyptians as possess a temple of the Theban Jove, or live in the Thebaic canton, offer no sheep in sacrifice, but only goats; for the Egyptians do not all worship the same gods, excepting Isis and Osiris, the latter of whom they say is the Grecian Bacchus. Those, on the contrary, who possess a temple dedicated to Mendes, or belong to the Mendesian canton, abstain from offering goats, and sacrifice sheep instead. The Thebans, and such as imitate them in their practice, give the following account of the origin of the custom:- "Hercules," they say, "wished of all things to see Jove, but Jove did not choose to be seen of him. At length, when Hercules persisted, Jove hit on a device- to flay a ram, and, cutting off his head, hold the head before him, and cover himself with the fleece. In this guise he showed himself to Hercules." Therefore the Egyptians give their statues of Jupiter the face of a ram: and from them the practice has passed to the Ammonians, who are a joint colony of Egyptians and Ethiopians, speaking a language between the two; hence also, in my opinion, the latter people took their name of Ammonians, since the Egyptian name for Jupiter is Amun. Such, then, is the reason why the Thebans do not sacrifice rams, but consider them sacred animals. Upon one day in the year, however, at the festival of Jupiter, they slay a single ram, and stripping off the fleece, cover with it the statue of that god, as he once covered himself, and then bring up to the statue of Jove an image of Hercules. When this has been done, the whole assembly beat their breasts in mourning for the ram, and afterwards bury him in a holy sepulchre.

http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.2.ii.html

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In the Ukraine, burian is a generic name used for weed type field growth. Said this way - any growth that a field animal like a cow won't eat, is woody and thorny like briar, and can be thick enough where a Cossack and his horse can hide behind it.

In Serbia (if my memory is still godd) is a settlement (I recall late 1800's) as a land grant for volunteers to settle some burian scruff land. This land is hostile, and I don't think it ever was, nor is this small village of this name, very successfully developed. So there is merit to a burian weed, as such. The Burian (Burjan) tribe is recorded on the N. Black Sea, likely neighboring the Thracian domains. I think they may be the same people. I think Serbia was part of the Soviet Union when this attempt to populate otherwise partly fallow land. Today, Russia wouldn't be part of this domain. Very difficult to find this kind of info, and, I don't know if this small village still exist. Doubtful from the descriptions and few images I saw years back. And, the Russian's gave everyone "free" hand tools to work the land. I think there are some vast areas of the Steppe that is difficult to work commercially, this would qualify as one of them. The roots to the "burian" name in this form are unknown to me, and this date doesn't allow more depth, but will answer the question as such. A Burian name has an assortment of possible descriptors, but seem detached, or uncommon to one another.

I've read also, that if your from the tribe Buri, then your a Burian. Seems logical to me. This is why I'm backing into the Norse god Buri. Because I read the Buri tribe's name was the same as this god Buri, I recall claimed by them. This may be the only way to get a Buri god from 1st pricipals because the Icelandic records, or any others are pretty slim for content. I'm certain the Buri tribe was the one in the Gladiator movie ~170AD. Those folks. And the wolf in the movie too.

For the name Aquitaine, the Thracians are considered one holder of the Eagle tamga. In Italy this is called aquila, as an eagle looking symbol standard for their special legionary division/s. I believe it was Augustine ~100BC that incorporated the white eagle as Rome's new symbol (Augustine Palace, in Central Rome, on Palantine Hill, and Rome as the "city of seven hills" collectively). I've read that Draco and Thraco adds to the double eagle, as in America. I believe the oldest double-headed bird inscriptions is with the Hittites. A Buri-Daci would qualify as the Draco part of this, and perhaps both parts, as Burjan's were said to like Thracian women, for what its worth. I haven't really taken this on much yet, but a real curiosity.

Aquila (Roman) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Could this be considered a Roman held precinct in Gaul, when this name was devised, or first used as such? I haven't read this attachment yet, as its late here, but I'll give 51-49% odds something will go on with yet another bird type.

I think ibai in Basque could possibly mean bay. Related to a port activity. I've had this notion for Baikal in Siberia, but haven't deciphered their linguistics.

Norse Girl Names, Bergthora

Here's a name with a Berg, and a Thora, which may be Thor's sister as I've read these two names as brother-sister, but unsuccessful in attempts to cross verify this. Strange that it is a girls name here, and Norse. Thora's mountain?

See what you think, GGG guy.

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Sorry about that, I presssed the wrong button and now it's too late to edit it.

I'm not really sure GGG, following this buri name is very hard, there's so many variations of it - I'll try and disect it's meaning some.

The name appears to be Slavic and Ukrainian as near the weeds or woods I have read - the weeds are the burs - maybe bur (as in off a plant, a prickly thing - went to cage/birdcage - which went to fortress, you know, like a prickly cage, cause cage is also in the bur etymology - then this went to burg, hill etc).

As for Buri - storage room I think is related to bur above (cage) - burr meaning son -

The meaning of either Búri or Buri is not known. The first could be related to búr meaning "storage room" and the second could be related to burr meaning "son". "Buri" may mean "producer".

storage room would come from the above bur

I'm not sure exactly how burr gets to son (maybe seed pod) but it is a 'poetic' word for it in Icelandic

From Old Norse burr.

Noun

bur m (genitive singular burs, plural burir)

1.(poetic) son

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bur

This also comes from the same etymology as: cage, chamber, prickly

Click the different bur words to follow the etymology connections - you will see cage, larder, son and more.

So, the etymology for the Norse Buri would lie in this meaning - it could possibly derive from a more Eastern language, Slavic or such, I don't know much about those languages, since bur in an original and early form seems to mean their meaning - bur - prickly seed pod land, maybe burlands of a type then.

It seems even fortress and hill come from this stem, fortresses were on hills, they WERE the burghs - really burs.

Norse myths imo do come up from the area above the Black Sea when the Nordic IE people moved in on the original I haplogroup cultures - bringing in the IE words.

So, it would not surprise me if then, the stem bur is original IE, an R1a people word, which travelled to Scandinavia when they migrated there, Russian/Ukrainian types went in with them and thier culture hero myth stems from this word. Once it became a Norse word it continues to change meanings, into English etc. IMO.

Then Buri's son is Borr - I found a connection: (the Anglo-Saxon bur leads to the above linked bur (pricky seed, cage etc) - Note bor is boy, like bur was boy in Icelandic - so somewhere Norfolk and Iceland picked up this term for boy - from bur - it said poetic in Iceland so again, I'm not sure why it means boy - maybe boy came from the word bor - but I'm unsure how the meanings from bur transfer to boy - but since Icelandic said it was a poetic use - it might not connect in meaning etymologically.

Old Norse borr

English

Etymology

Could be derived from the Anglo-Saxon word bur, or gebur, meaning freeholder of the lowest class, peasant or farmer. [1]

Noun

bor

1.(Norfolk) boy

References

1.^ bur definition taken from A Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary By John R. Clark Hall, Herbert Dean Meritt, 1916.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bor

So, borr would be connected to Buri imo and originally come from bur - in the Slavic Ukrainian meaning, that travelled North and became words used for original culture heroes.

With berry I see the connection you mentioned before - this really probably means SEED - the boy is the seed, the pod, the berry.

It appears to me then, that IE Norse words travelled up with R1a people from the North of the Black Sea.

Here I noticed something:

bore (v.1) O.E. borian "to bore through, perforate," from bor "auger," from P.Gmc. *buron (cf. O.N. bora, Swed. borra, O.H.G. boron, M.Du. boren, Ger. bohren), from PIE root *bher- (2) "to cut with a sharp point" (cf. Gk. pharao "I plow," L. forare "to bore, pierce," O.C.S. barjo "to strike, fight," Albanian brime "hole").

to cut with a sharp point - the spikes on the bur - another meaning:3.A rotary cutting implement - right, the burs have the sharp spikes so imagine one rolling along with spikes on it - same concept - so it say sto me these words are actually connected.

PIE root bher - which as you see goes through to bore I notice - so if we ignore the made up PIE words - you could go straight from bur in Ukrainian with original bur meaning (spiky seed pod) straight through to Old English - borian - so Borian would be the same as Burian - they key meaning is: a seed pod with spikes - a çontainer' surrounded by spikes - a compartment/cage probably with spikes on it - a fortress, always with spikes to keep the enemy out - so I see a line of word change of that kind.

In the meantime it became associated with the spikes, sharp points, piercing and BORING - to Greek 'I plough' - so plough even appears to stem from it as well.

The boring or continual turning (augur) plough, even the plough in the sky.

An older Odin's Wain may have preceded these Nordic designations.[1] Similarly, in Romanian and most Slavic languages it is known as "the Great Wagon", as opposed to "the Small Wagon," the Little Dipper. In German it is called Großer Wagen (Great Cart).

The bore motion of the plough, probably contributed to it's name in Greek as 'the plough' - the bur - the borer - cart or plough depending on who said it.

Ursa Major, the Plough is also the Bear.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bear

PIE root bher (again) I know this will connect but I'll leave it for another post. The Bear/Plough is equal to the Greek word for plough which is a same word for bore and this happens to be a bear - I don't really trust *Proto words much.

Edited by The Puzzler
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The concept is familiar to me of the bore motion and a comparison I thought of is Sheaf, another culture hero who was a kind of reborn son, who was in a pod, the sheaf is his protection - the pod, seed - the pod was tied to a central stick and he went around adn around - to plough, bore etc, sounds like farmers to me - people who planted these seeds and saw them in the same light as themselves, these terms are common in Nordic - pods, buds, regrowth after winter after dying...

Snorri himself says the Nordic people came from Asaland and he places it near the Don River, so it's not unusual to think thats exactly where these early R1a Ukrainian types pushed North to becomes IE speaking large built fair haired Viking types. The legends would appear to stem from the Ukranian areas imo, who may have been very early farmers.

Buri, Borr and Boreas, then Hyperborea in would all stem from the same root - then the swastika represents the movement of the seasons and the iconology of the rotating.

brown and bear - all that made up mystery PIE *bher word:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=brown

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bear

Imo, the root word for all these words is bur and that is this PIE *bher.

Even other words like 'burn' imo - you rotate a stick really fast to create fire, bore it into another piece of wood or bark - the concepts are what is important to think about to see the changes in the word meanings.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Borr or Burr ('son'; sometimes anglicized Bor or Bur) was the son of Búri and the father of Odin in Norse mythology. He is mentioned in the Gylfaginning, part of Snorri Sturluson's Prose Edda.

Brodeur's translation

[búri] begat a son called Borr, who wedded the woman named Bestla, daughter of Bölthorn the giant; and they had three sons: one was Odin, the second Vili, the third Vé.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borr

It looks like some things got confused here: a name and a noun.

On the other hand. in Aramaic "bar" means 'son' or 'son of', lol. Nah, forget that one, pls.

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Wolf in Basque is otso.

I have a feeling IE wolf will connect to whelp (puppy - also to give birth) and the iconology of Lupa the wolf with Romulus and Remus.

wolf O.E. wulf, from P.Gmc. *wulfaz (cf. O.S. wulf, O.N. ulfr, O.Fris., Du., O.H.G., Ger. wolf, Goth. wulfs), from PIE *wlqwos/*lukwos, from root *wlp-/*lup- (cf. Skt. vrkas, Avestan vehrka-; Albanian ulk; O.C.S. vluku; Rus. volcica; Lith. vilkas "wolf;" O.Pers. Varkana- "Hyrcania," district southeast of the Caspian Sea, lit. "wolf-land;" probably also Gk. lykos, L. lupus). The verb meaning "eat like a wolf" is attested from 1862. Wolves as a symbol of lust are ancient, e.g. Roman slang lupa "whore," lit. "she-wolf" (preserved in Sp. loba, It. lupa, Fr. louve). The equation of "wolf" and "prostitute, sexually voracious female" persisted into 12c.

Here we go: English

Etymology

Old English hwelp 'pup, wolf cub', from Proto-Germanic *hwelpaz (compare Dutch welp, obsolete German Welf, Danish hvalp), from pre-Germanic *kʷelbos, from Proto-Indo-European *gʷelbhos (compare Old Church Slavonic жрѣбѧ (žrěbę) 'foal', Latin vulva, bolva, volba 'womb', Ancient Greek βρέφος (bréphos) 'fœtus, newborn', Hittite huēlpi 'overipe, fresh; newborn animal', Sanskrit उल्ब (úlba, úlva) 'womb').

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whelp

wlp became lp/lup (Lupa - probably pup as well) the p sound changes to a k in some languages so it can be lupa or luka - luk/luc is light so maybe a connection could be to light as well.

Interesting Russian 'volcica'. Volc might be a stem you could follow as far as metal smiths. If Hyrcania was a land of metal working - I'd be sure of some connection in the words. Metalsmith could then connect to wolf in the volc stem.

In the words for whelp, looking for a root sound it seems to be 'alp' - so how do we get whelp from alp?

perhaps from altus "high," or albus "white" or from a Celtic word (according to Servius), or a pre-I.E. root.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=alp

Before I said luka is light (white, bright) so Alps as white really should relate to whelp as going through to lupa then to luka (light,bright,white).

newborn - new, fresh, bright, light, white (the Alps)

whelp - new, fresh - like a newborn - a pup - a wolf cub

Wherever this IE alp sound was from, maybe pre-Hittite origin - is where this word might stem from. Maybe 'wolf land' near the Caspian Sea...probably again the point where the Nordic people headed North from taking these early IE words and concepts.

Romulus was probably viewed as a new bright light ('pup' of a wolf - Lupa). I think Lycians will connect as I said before.

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Borr or Burr ('son'; sometimes anglicized Bor or Bur) was the son of Búri and the father of Odin in Norse mythology. He is mentioned in the Gylfaginning, part of Snorri Sturluson's Prose Edda.

Brodeur's translation

[búri] begat a son called Borr, who wedded the woman named Bestla, daughter of Bölthorn the giant; and they had three sons: one was Odin, the second Vili, the third Vé.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borr

It looks like some things got confused here: a name and a noun.

On the other hand. in Aramaic "bar" means 'son' or 'son of', lol. Nah, forget that one, pls.

The bur is the son, the seed, in Aramaic it's probably a similar root, with bar really being a form of bur.

Barley will be connected also - another seed sheaf - I think I covered this in the OLB thread - barn also.

Edited by The Puzzler
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If I could perhaps take a DNA approach. R1a, and R1b depart from R in Central Asia, typically shown southward, or in the Northern region of the Caucasus mountain range. If one of the translations for Iberia in the Caucasus is "to cross over", perhaps, more in line with Biblical thinking, Then R1b "crossed over - the Caucasus Mts - and set up shop in both Anatolia, and Sumeria, and the North Black Sea.

This was my own extrapolation years back, and would fit the DNA map I attached, and fit as R1a in Macedonia, Romainia, and fit - I think into a Buri tribe envelope during early periods in these particular regions, lets say before a Buri god in the North was fully realized in their gods pantheon we know of now.

I have another historian that would make the claim that indeed Hyperboreans of Lake Van split into a Volga migration, and an Anatolian part. I think I can show similar with a Burjan tribe, herein as Buryan, or a shaman pantheon og gods derived therefrom, if not the same players. See if this logic may fit into this yDNA roots, but where the dates would be very ancient, I would think, if we were to compare to our historical type written manuscripts, and most current archaeology, and ruins and such.

To extrpolate all of the possible Buri linguistics is a chore, and in the end, I don't exactly know which the "winning door" is, or as a minimum, have some logic to perhaps find common roots to many of them, perhaps not all.

As miners, there is the metal working tool called a burr, used to remove burrs (like a file) from metals. If this is a blacksmith tribe, the this seems the most logical in its own way, and would fit a shaman aspect, perhaps from ancient times. If true about R1a and R1b spliting as stated, the both Ria and R1b could (or should) reflect the same religion as shamanism, thus R1a, or R1b could in theory have similar pantheons, but a this location, their respective meanings would evolve into different territories, and thus take on varients in translations, but yet should retain some basic root parts, albeit in the linguistics, but various other attributes such as, Their ocupations, could be a few here - farmers, sea people, potters, etc., and herein perhaps allow a Buri entity to arise, and migrate North, to the Baltic regions, as R1a would typify. The Caucasus event I would project as pivot point to bridge proto-Europeans, of these earlier periods, as related to the IE language part. Manly, after the Iron Age for Europe, especially for the blacksmiths parts, if, from Central Asian crafts they brought with them, during this European migration period, or the dark ages of Europe. There could be an earlier period before this, and a Norse Buri god fits within this earlier period, and I project 3-2,000 BC, and an Egypt affiliation to allow this Audumia cow aspect to be realized. Was it the Buri tribe that fashioned this god, then introduced it to the Scandinavian peoples. There is similarities in the shamanism, and I contend, goes all the way to Siberia, as a Buryan root name origin. Outside of Strabo, you don't find much on this concept. There is many locallized studies (I call geographically concentric, or based in a local - lets say like Greek studies), where I have to assemble the tribal name, and local histories, then model them into a global time line. This is why I say "all data is good", because I will try to assemble it within these constraints, and also find supporting evidence, if this is available. These factors are the ones I believe I can support with data, as verifiable, and that which I've modeled from thus far. If the model is good, then the other nuances can be realized, at least as 1st order approximations.

If R1a is Macedonians, then I can get to Bohemia readily as Danube River migration, as a Buri tribe, and is Ptolemy's maps in Bohemian regions. This is basically "hard data" for a Buri name, and a tribe name, which I can clearly state has historical data and evidence.

My position reduces to shaman blacksmiths, and I believe I can make this case, and can be old enough to suggest both R1a and R1b could exibits these attributes for their ancestors respectively.

Puzzlers last cut with Jesus in a manger actually fit pretty good into my Hounds of Heaven attachment, relative to Gooseberries, and barns. Hard to imagine for me anyway.

Because of all the possible variants for "Bur", I decided long ago, I need to understand this tribal relationship before I can untangle all the European names, as personal, or regional names from ancient times, in numerous locations, and languages.

In light of my personal name, I want to deal this as a tribal component, and I think this is more important to all of you, as this integrates into Europe is some way, and I confess, can be figured out, but many theories currently exists, so somehow, my parts have to fit within this larger picture, alongside many tribes, in the various regions, in their respective era/s. Many of these tribe are poorly understood.

When Puzzler finally derived a manger, and the image as such, a light bulb immediately went off in my mind. That idea, the Vergina Star, or Sun, and is a Macedonian-Greek 16-pointed star symbol. Both the name Vergina for the sun and the city comes from Veria, which is Berea in the Bible, and is also called "the star of Bethlehem," I would contend is a nickname. Did we come full circle in the meaning of Bur (also a god prefix, like Per, Bir, Bor, Bar, and others)?

Note the word Burgher, to mean rich. The god Kubera in India is a treasurer of the gods. Called Bokkr in Nores pantheon, where I see "broker, and banker".

Brokkr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Training Swords : Bokken

I'll get back in a bit, and this can get complex, GGG guy.

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The bur is the son, the seed, in Aramaic it's probably a similar root, with bar really being a form of bur.

Barley will be connected also - another seed sheaf - I think I covered this in the OLB thread - barn also.

Yeah, the "barley/barn" thing, I won't forget about that one, lol.

It wasn't anything convincing if you ask me.

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