Was Christ a Yogi?

[+Paranoid Android]

I enjoyed your post! Thanks for...

...If the preacher asks people to say such prayers when they get home, then that's fine. Those who truly feel they want to pray will do so when no one can see them doing it. Those who don't care won't because they don't pray when there's nothing in it for them (being seen in church by many others as they pray). It's what happens in private that separates the real believers from the hypocrites.

Hi Shabd mystic,

Again I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. Two things I would like to add though. First, I agree that what we do behind closed doors when no-one can see us is important. Christians who pray only when they can be seen at church are exactly the hypocrites Jesus was speaking about, in my opinion. I'm sure that there are many Christians who pray at home and no-one will ever know (except God). I could be wrong on that, though.

It seems to say the exact same thing as it does about prayers. Charity should be done "in secret" (except when that's not possible, of course) because, like with prayer, any sense of "I" must be removed for it to be TRUE charity or TRUE prayer.

Just finding out how difficult it can be to give to charities secretly will show most people how much previous charity donations have actually been about "me." It can be quite surprising, and quite educational as well. But that's not something I or anyone who understands what Jesus was saying, wants people to understand because, unfortunately, donations to charities would all but dry up if people HAD to follow this. So in that respect, at least, ego is actually a "good" thing.

.

The second thing I wanted to raise is a thought - would it surprise you if I said the church I attend does not hand out an offertory plate/bag? We don't even mention finances during church services. There's a nondescript white box in a corner where regular members can at any time go to and put something in, but if you're new or visiting you will have no idea it was there. Unfortunately, because it is so ignored, I know that at least once in the past twelve months someone has stolen all the money inside after a given week (we can only hope that the person who took it really needed it for something honest - whether it was an observant visitor who saw people putting money in, or whether a regular member we have no idea). Only regular members are told the box exists, and that is only during our monthly member meetings, the only time finances are ever brought up at church.

I think my church loses revenue because of this, but I think it is a much more "godly" approach than a collection plate.

In any case, I just thought I'd share something interesting to your point

[karmakazi]

The second thing I wanted to raise is a thought - would it surprise you if I said the church I attend does not hand out an offertory plate/bag? We don't even mention finances during church services. There's a nondescript white box in a corner where regular members can at any time go to and put something in, but if you're new or visiting you will have no idea it was there. Unfortunately, because it is so ignored, I know that at least once in the past twelve months someone has stolen all the money inside after a given week (we can only hope that the person who took it really needed it for something honest - whether it was an observant visitor who saw people putting money in, or whether a regular member we have no idea). Only regular members are told the box exists, and that is only during our monthly member meetings, the only time finances are ever brought up at church.

I think my church loses revenue because of this, but I think it is a much more "godly" approach than a collection plate.

In any case, I just thought I'd share something interesting to your point

I haven't been in this particular discussion but I just wanted to say . I so rarely hear about churches that aren't hypocritical...glad you've found one

[la_paloma_blanca]

Wow! I think some took this article completely out of context. I agree with the idea as Christ as a yogi. A yogi is pretty much a synonym for a prophet. Christ was a prophet regardless if you view him as the son of God or not.

[Shabd Mystic]

The second thing I wanted to raise is a thought - would it surprise you if I said the church I attend does not hand out an offertory plate/bag? We don't even mention finances during church services. There's a nondescript white box in a corner where regular members can at any time go to and put something in, but if you're new or visiting you will have no idea it was there. Unfortunately, because it is so ignored, I know that at least once in the past twelve months someone has stolen all the money inside after a given week (we can only hope that the person who took it really needed it for something honest - whether it was an observant visitor who saw people putting money in, or whether a regular member we have no idea). Only regular members are told the box exists, and that is only during our monthly member meetings, the only time finances are ever brought up at church.

I think my church loses revenue because of this, but I think it is a much more "godly" approach than a collection plate.

In any case, I just thought I'd share something interesting to your point

That's great to hear. Not that they don't try hard to get money, lol (or the theft of course), but just that it isn't a big motivation. That's surely a rare thing in organized religions these days!

.

[Shabd Mystic]

Wow! I think some took this article completely out of context. I agree with the idea as Christ as a yogi. A yogi is pretty much a synonym for a prophet. Christ was a prophet regardless if you view him as the son of God or not.

A yogi and a prophet aren't even close to the same thing, though there can be yogis who were prophets as well. A brief idea from Wikipedia:

The Sanskrit word yoga has the literal meaning of "yoke", or "the act of yoking or harnessing", from a root yuj. A serious practitioner of Yoga (someone pursuing the higher spiritual and religious goals of Yoga) takes upon themselves a life of austere self-discipline common to nearly all forms of mystical and religious life. The practices that constitute this self-disciplined life are called in yoga yama and niyama. This self-discipline is the 'yoke' that one puts upon oneself for the purpose of attaining moksha (moksha is the liberation from samsara and the concomitant suffering involved in being subject to the cycle of repeated death and reincarnation or rebirth). ... Techniques for experiencing higher states of consciousness in meditation were developed by the shramanic traditions and in the Upanishadic tradition.

There is a TON more to it, but that just gives a broad idea of what a yogi is. That book chapter was written by a yogi and in no way was talking about a "prophet." The first few chapters were all about the yoga that he practiced, and it is in no way something for the "light of heart."

The author was asking if Jesus maybe followed a yogic path in order to achieve his state of "Perfection," but that yogi was from a lower form of yoga, which every type of widely known yoga is. They highest achievers on such paths fall way short of of "Perfection."

The only type of yoga that could result in a Perfect human being like Jesus is Surat Shabd Yoga, which wasn't mentioned in that book and isn't even known about by 99% of "traditional" yoga practitioners in this world.

And like all other True Paths that were eventually corrupted by different "branches" or turned into religions, there are numerous ones now teaching Surat Shabd Yoga that range from downright frauds all the way to the only one teaching the True form. And the only way to know which one is True is by judging the Master who teaches it (hint: He doesn't have an "English sounding name," lol).

In all forms of spiritual pursuit it has been said for centuries that you can never rise higher than your Master/Teacher, so if you want to ever reach the highest level (or the 5th Heaven) and attain "Perfection," you need a Master/Teacher who is absolutely Perfect (with no ego). You need to find "God" on earth before you will ever be able to see Him after you leave.

.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Shabd Mystic

[White Crane Feather]

Completing the circle ? Interesting way of putting it,like the creation returning to acknowledge the Source.

Yes a circle or more like a never ending hall of mirrors. A tangled hierarchy.

You need the mirror to reflect and create the illusion of separation so you can experience yourself. We are made in gods image

( an interesting related annecdote) one day in meditation ( obe)on a spirit quest I first learned to dig beneath everything in between every thing ( it's hard to explaine) but there I discovered pure light. Very bright. After hiking out and resting. An epiphany came to me. I have always been strangly attracted to audio feedback. But then I grab a video Camara hook the Camara up to the television and turned it onto the television. What do you get? A "hall of mirrors" condensing into a bright light. Try it you will see what I mean. If you can create OBEs, set it up and meditate... Then when you exit your body dive into it. I can't explaine what happens next but it's a pure merger experience. Dissolution of separation..., but I might be a bit crazy

Edited February 23, 2012 by Seeker79

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

Was Christ a Yogi?

You must have seen "The Lost Years of Jesus."

[Shabd Mystic]

You must have seen "The Lost Years of Jesus."

No, I've never seen it, but judging from the title it discussed what many other sources have claimed, that Jesus spent much of His "lost years" studying in India. While His subsequent teachings surely match much of what has been expounded by numerous highly "achieved" Mystics from India, I see no reason to believe that He definitely spent time in India. According to the Path of the Saints (in whatever form it took) Jesus would have gotten all the "teaching" He ever needed from His own Master, John the Baptist.

John "baptizing" Jesus is the same thing that is now called "initiation" and has been called other things in the past. That basically describes the process where a Perfect Master, who has become One with God, connects His disciple with the "Shabd" or "Word" or "Audible Life Stream." The Bible describes it as "the heavens opening up" for Jesus which is exactly what happens.

Until you are "baptized" by a living Perfect Master, you can't possibly have all the heavens opened up to you. All that is ever possible is that you might have some sort of "mystical experience" or even hear a couple sounds and see some lights (and similar things), but despite what the "negative power" wishes you to believe with false assumptions of "God realization" that aren't even close to the "real thing," the True Path can ONLY be reached by finding One who has reached it and who will help you do so as well.

John the Baptist was such a One, and Jesus became such a One because of Him. Thomas then became such a One because of Jesus. There has always been at least One such perfect Saint on earth since the dawn of time and there is NO OTHER WAY to get Home without finding such a One. None. Absolutely none. Despite everything the mind wants us to believe.

As it says in The Gospel of Thomas

(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

The line "he will rule over the All" is LITERAL. Jesus says in the Bible many of the same things, but nobody even sees what He is saying. Christians, as a rule, take things He meant literally in some other way, and take things He meant in some other way, literally.

Every person on earth has within them the power to become absolutely Perfect. To become exactly like Jesus was. And until that happens that person will NEVER go "Home."

The mind is "the great deceiver" and the Christian religion is the most perfect example of that I have ever seen.

.

[Cosmic Radiant]

Every person on earth has within them the power to become absolutely Perfect. To become exactly like Jesus was. And until that happens that person will NEVER go "Home."

The mind is "the great deceiver" and the Christian religion is the most perfect example of that I have ever seen.

well said

[Habitat]

No, I've never seen it, but judging from the title it discussed what many other sources have claimed, that Jesus spent much of His "lost years" studying in India. While His subsequent teachings surely match much of what has been expounded by numerous highly "achieved" Mystics from India, I see no reason to believe that He definitely spent time in India. According to the Path of the Saints (in whatever form it took) Jesus would have gotten all the "teaching" He ever needed from His own Master, John the Baptist.

John "baptizing" Jesus is the same thing that is now called "initiation" and has been called other things in the past. That basically describes the process where a Perfect Master, who has become One with God, connects His disciple with the "Shabd" or "Word" or "Audible Life Stream." The Bible describes it as "the heavens opening up" for Jesus which is exactly what happens.

Until you are "baptized" by a living Perfect Master, you can't possibly have all the heavens opened up to you. All that is ever possible is that you might have some sort of "mystical experience" or even hear a couple sounds and see some lights (and similar things), but despite what the "negative power" wishes you to believe with false assumptions of "God realization" that aren't even close to the "real thing," the True Path can ONLY be reached by finding One who has reached it and who will help you do so as well.

John the Baptist was such a One, and Jesus became such a One because of Him. Thomas then became such a One because of Jesus. There has always been at least One such perfect Saint on earth since the dawn of time and there is NO OTHER WAY to get Home without finding such a One. None. Absolutely none. Despite everything the mind wants us to believe.

As it says in The Gospel of Thomas

(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

The line "he will rule over the All" is LITERAL. Jesus says in the Bible many of the same things, but nobody even sees what He is saying. Christians, as a rule, take things He meant literally in some other way, and take things He meant in some other way, literally.

Every person on earth has within them the power to become absolutely Perfect. To become exactly like Jesus was. And until that happens that person will NEVER go "Home."

The mind is "the great deceiver" and the Christian religion is the most perfect example of that I have ever seen.

.

Nicely written, but I have to challenge the premise that full realization is impossible unless under the wing of a "perfect living master". How did the first of this genre arise then, without the benefit of a perfected guide ? Does not make sense to me, I would be more cautious about what may or may not be possible.

[Shabd Mystic]

Nicely written, but I have to challenge the premise that full realization is impossible unless under the wing of a "perfect living master". How did the first of this genre arise then, without the benefit of a perfected guide ? Does not make sense to me, I would be more cautious about what may or may not be possible.

Without getting into the specifics of how the "first of this genre" arose because it would take more to explain it than you would want to read (or I would want to write), I'll just share this along with an example of what has been written ...

The world is full of people who believe "anything is possible." That's exactly what the "negative power" wants us to believe. The human ego is an incredibly cunning foe, to the point where many actually believe they have "transcended ego" (and they haven't even come close as the ego has actually been so magnified in such people that they are incapable of seeing the truth).

The perfect Masters have been very clear on this point for 6 centuries now. (Though earlier Masters said the same things in different ways.) I have enough material regarding this to fill dozens of posts, but there is no way on earth that the human ego will ever allow anyone to understand it, especially the countless people who have attained anything like what they believe is "God realization" which is nothing even remotely close to anything other than something akin to "expanded consciousness" that at the very most is only 'attainment" of the very first level.

Many such people are absolutely convinced they have eliminated all "karma" and become "one with God" because they've often been granted various minor powers (or siddhis). Most have reached this state because of something like Kundalini, but others just had it "bestowed" on them.

They haven't even come close to what they believe they have, but they've become so dazzled because what they've got is so beyond anything they've known on earth that they believe it's something that it isn't. There have been countless books written by such people, and the world celebrates many others such as Ramana Maharshi who never went past the 1st level (or Eckert Tolle who hasn't even reached that "high"). Such "gurus" have completely wasted the precious gift of human life and spent their time swimming in ego and thinking how "special" they were. And so have their countless followers.

There are many people who "hear music" in their right ear and have all sorts of "otherworldly" experiences and don't even have a clue that they are firmly in the grip of the "negative power" who is so vastly more intelligent than they are. The Masters have all said that any lights and sounds people see and hear (whether via meditation, Kundalini, or just from being "bestowed" on them) are "of lowest sensory nature (negative and harmful) and have nothing to do with sound and light experiences of real Sant Mat."

From the book, "With a Great Master In India," by Doctor Julian Johnson:

Volumes could be written and still tell but little of the worlds crossed by the Saints. Much of it cannot be told in mortal language, because we have nothing like it here with which to compare it. ... Each successive stage brings him just that much nearer to sainthood itself. But very few of the ancient yogis, seers and prophets ever reached this second region. And yet, no doubt, each one thought he had reached the highest, the abode of the Supreme. For so it appeared to him.

In his delight, he could not imagine anything greater, and he had no Guru to instruct him concerning the many worlds beyond. Traveling alone, no one can hope to go beyond the upper frontiers of the first region. A few of the yogishwars reached the second, and still fewer the third, by the aid of their gurus who had gone that far ahead of them. Beyond that none but the Saints and their disciples have ever gone. From this second region the Vedas emanated, and consequently they know of nothing beyond it, although the Lord Krishna hints at a higher region when he tells his disciple, Arjuna, to transcend the Vedas. They believed it to be the ultimate region and its lord they accepted as the Supreme Being.

The books all map out the 5 regions one must transcend and they are VERY detailed and incredible. It is a very specific Path one must travel and there are COUNTLESS places one can and will be fooled and will be unable to go higher. As they say, souls who have managed to reach the third level, which is the region of Brahma, or "OM," are extremely rare and even that level is fully controlled by the "negative power" (Brahma is the same as that very power, and in fact is the "God" of the Old Testament). Beyond the third level is yet another even more incredible spiritual level but before one reaches it he must first make it through "Maha Sunna." Maharaj Sawan Singh, "The Great Master," describes that as:

Above Daswan Dwar lies Maha Sunna, a vast void of such utter darkness that the spirit, which is now a glorious thing giving forth the radiance of twelve suns, finds itself overwhelmed by the pitch darkness and cannot pass through it without the benign Grace and guidance of the Satguru. In this region there are many thousands of spirits, each with the light of twelve suns shining round it, yet unable to extricate itself from this region of darkness. But the spirit that crosses it once with the help of the Master is, thereafter, free to do so at will.

"If a hundred moons appear,

A thousand suns anear,

If Master be not here,

Its veils you cannot tear,

The darkness is so sheer."

~ Guru Angad

"The Saints are like proverbial hens,

That lay the golden eggs.

In the fourth watch of the night

When they ride on seven heavens

They become their suns.

When they sleep

They make sun and moon their pillow.

Beyond the three worlds,

They go into the fourth.

And to thousands of born-blind

Thro' their compassion do they grant sight."

~Shamas-i-Tabriz

It is clear, therefore, that a living Master is the prerequisite for a safe journey to the regions beyond Maha Sunna. Yet people commit the blunder of depending on saints and prophets who left the earth plane centuries or, in some cases, aeons ago. Those holy men are not able to help the people now living on earth.

That level is so vast that what we know as the "universe" would be no more than a grain of sand on a beach. There are similar areas of tremendous darkness on every level (even the lowest level, that of the human body with it's "chakras" is merely a reflection of the regions above it), but nothing even comes close to that one. No soul could ever transcend it without One who has come from the level above it to take you through it (which They do, literally).

There is sooooo much more, but as i said, i know this is a waste of time. People are going to believe what they want to believe no matter how much "proof" may be offered, so there is absolutely no chance a few words will ever sway them.

Christians are living proof of that and they have never been given anything close to what so many people who've dabbled in meditation or different yoga practices have been given. They have a bunch of words and any one of hundreds of interpretations that best fits their wants and desires, and not a single one would even give anything I've shared here the time of day. How on earth is there even a chance that someone who's gotten so much more than that going to believe they've been "suckered?"

The human ego so wants to believe it's because they are "special" that nothing I could ever write could ever hope to sway them from that position. I've often thought that it must be wonderful to believe "I am special" but I've come to finally understand that only those who can truly see how so very "unspecial" they are ever have a hope of one day becoming special. It's not exactly fun realizing what a pathetic fool I am, but at least I know that without being able to fully understand that there is no hope whatsoever of ever transcending it.

Meanwhile I'll just have to go through life being surrounded by all those who are special enough to have been "saved" by Jesus, and all those who are so "brilliant" they can see that foolish beliefs in things like "God" are only for the small-minded, and all the ones who are so "incredible" they've been granted "gnosis" or "God realization" even though they never had to follow the long and difficult Path described by numerous Perfect Masters who have ACTUALLY traversed all the spectacular regions (and the very first region alone has countless heavens and hells and so much more).

That's okay because I don't mind. I know it's worth it. Let everyone else have their dreams, hopes and beliefs, combined with their "experiences" that help strengthen such beliefs. I'll just rely on what all the various Perfect Masters have said and the many ways I have been able to confirm that. I'm not trying to have any sort of "contest" with anyone. I'm merely trying to share what i can. Whether anyone chooses to believe it or ridicule it doesn't change the reality of it one iota. And it's only the Reality that matters. Nothing else.

.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Shabd Mystic

[Shabd Mystic]

I figured I'd add this since it's relevant (From Maharaj Sawan Singh):

After emerging from the expansive sombre void of Maha Sunna, the soul reaches the Fourth Spiritual Region, which is called by the Saints Bhanwar Gupha, the whirling cave. This region is ruled by the great spiritual Lord Sohang whose name means "That Am I."

From here the soul journeys to the Fifth Spiritual Region, Sach Khand (the Region of Truth). This is the Father's House, its True Home, from which it descended ages ago. The music emanating from this land is that of the Veena (a stringed instrument). All the Saints who have reached this Region, mention the enrapturing sweetness of this music.

"In the changeless abode

Of the Formless Lord,

Shall Veena play,

The endless Melody;

And Rama will I say,

Detached inwardly."

~ Namdev

"The glory of the Lord, Forever I behold,

Where tunes of Veena play,

O Nanak, night and day."

~ Guru Nanak

"In the Fourth Realm doth Sat-purush reside,

And in that bliss the saints do ever abide.

That Home was shown to me by the perfect Guru

Wondrous the dulcet strains of vina play."

~ Swami Ji

"In the Sat lok above

There emanate the sweet strains of vina."

~ Gulal Sahib

"The sound of vina ringeth in heaven,

Where the Supreme Lord hath His throne."

~ Bhika

Tens of millions of worlds like ours are under the benign governance of Sat Purush (the True God), who is the Ruler of that Region. Eighty-eight thousand Islands of the Blessed are revolving around this Region, as the earth revolves round the sun. These are the abodes of Hansas, pure souls, who never descend to lower planes.

Our intellects are limited: our minds narrow. Never have we ascended to the inner realms of the spirit. We have been petrified by the worship of idols. The Vedas and other scriptures reveal to us the existence of tens of millions of suns and moons that are in the kingdoms of heaven within us. But if we do not go within, how shall we ever behold them?

In Sach Khand, as has been already said, the Audible Life Stream sounds like melodies played on the Veena. But this simile is used simply to give an idea of that enrapturing music, which is matchless and ineffable. The Muslim faqirs call this land Muqam-i-Huq (the abode of the True God).

The Master who has initiated us in this body, has the duty of taking the soul as far as Sach Khand. Thereafter, it is Sat Punish, the Lord of this vast region, who infuses His own divine energy into the soul and sends it to the higher worlds—Alakh (Invisible Land), Agam (Inaccessible Region), and Anami (the Nameless Region, the Eighth and Highest Spiritual Region).

"Next (to Sat lok) is Alakh lok, O brother,

Ruleth there the Lord Alakh-purusha.

Billions of suns equal not one hair of His,

Such Alakh have I beheld."

~ Swami Ji

"Then comes the Agam lok, a unique place,

Wherein the soul of a rare saint findeth access."

~ Swami Ji

Cross Alakh and Agam and look beyond. What indescribable Bliss! Here in Anami there is "the peace of God, which passeth all understanding."

"Above that there's Akeh lok, Brother,

Inhabited by Anami Purush, no other.

Who reach that land know only they,

For words can naught of that convey."

~ Kabir

.

[Shabd Mystic]

Just another paragraph from "With a Great Master in India" (that I'm in the middle of reading once again):

Many of them, rejoicing at the great beauty and light of this region, have quite firmly believed that they have reached the highest heaven and that the Lord of this region was the Supreme God. But, in fact, this is only the very lowest threshold of that vast system of heaven-worlds which lie above and beyond it. It constitutes the very first stage or resting place on the Path of the Saints. In reality, their journey begins here since this is the lower terminus of the Royal Highway of the Saints. And yet for most of the world religions, this is the end, for their founders never went beyond this region, and so they believed it to be the ultimate.

And a couple more paragraphs from the same book on the "Word" or "Sound Current:"

It is quite necessary to call attention here to the Sound Current. Only when he reaches the first region, the true Sound is heard, the real Shabd. This Sound Current is the most vital factor in his further progress.

From it he constantly draws energy, and by it he is enabled to overcome all hindrances and all weaknesses. It is extremely musical, sweet and delightful. Its attraction fairly pulls the soul upward; and throughout the entire journey, this Sound Current is his constant companion and support. Without it he could never make the journey.

Consequently, the Sound Current and the Master are the two vital factors in making the upward journey. Without them both, it cannot be made. These two, then, are the all-important factors in the Path of the Saints—the Sound Current and the living Master.

.

[Habitat]

A lot of people would get irritated by talk of great spiritual masters attaining high levels of perfection, by climbing some scale of achievement. It smacks of self-absorption and lacks the down to earth quality I see in the true "masters". Unless such activity ( or, paradoxically, inactivity) yields fruit for the world at large, it is just an exercise in vanity. The true test of any "inner traveller" is love, and how much it is the prime mover in their quest.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Habitat

[+and-then]

I'm pretty sure Christ never made the claim that he was God, the way I've heard the story he just told people how to live and to be kind. I have no idea where this idea that he was God comes from. I've always heard two sides of the story; either that he was the son of God (not God himself), or that he was just a very good man who others saw as a divine prophet because of this. In fact, didn't Jesus say when he was brought to the emperor or whoever it was who said "So you claim to be the king of the jews?"; "Those are your words" or something like that?

Note that I'm not an expert on Christianity, so I could be wrong.

Actually He did and he was nearly stoned for it. Read John 8:58 In it he was telling the religious types that he was around before Abraham, several hundred years earlier.

[m namasivayam]

A yogi is a mystic, Christ was a mystic, they are both similar in that respect.

christ was a siddhar.He may be a poonai kan siddhar as narrated in tamil siddhar tradition.

[Shabd Mystic]

A lot of people would get irritated by talk of great spiritual masters attaining high levels of perfection, by climbing some scale of achievement.

As Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Of course, Christians have no earthly idea that Jesus was being VERY literal in that statement because they believe getting to heaven merely involves some or all of the following: "belief in Jesus," "reading the Bible," "going to church," and/or "leading a decent life."

But, judging from your statements it's clear you don't believe Him either.

It smacks of self-absorption and lacks the down to earth quality I see in the true "masters".

Only a very human mind could ever see "Perfection" as "self-absorption."

Considering the fact that "Perfection" can only be attained through the total elimination of ego, in other words losing all sense of "self," I'd have to say seeing it as "self-absorption" is the absolute definition of "delusion."

Only a very human mind could ever try to find a "flaw" with "Perfection."

When all sense of "I" is gone all that is left is "He."

Ego is the ONLY thing separating us from God. When the ego dies, and there is no longer any "I," then what's left to fill the void is "God." Nothing else. And ego-death can only come the way that has been told by countless Perfect Mystics since the dawn of time.

But the world is filled with people who are convinced their egos are "gone" who haven't even come close to such a state.

A Perfect Master is just that. He is Perfect. He is "One with God." He is God in human flesh. Jesus was a Perfect Master.

You can look all day to try to find a fault with "God" (a Perfect Master such as Jesus and several others) if that makes you feel better about your own life, but it won't change the truth one iota.

.

[Shabd Mystic]

I was reading where Buddha once said:

"Some there are who are clear-sighted and do not need my teaching, and some whose eyes are clouded with dust who will not heed it though given, but between these two there are also some with but little dust in their eyes, who can be helped to see; and for the sake of these I will go back among mankind and teach"

It got me to thinking this forum should be renamed "The Dust Bowl."

[+Paranoid Android]

It got me to thinking this forum should be renamed "The Dust Bowl."

Perhaps the Buddha would agree with you. However, not everyone agrees with the Buddha (or more correctly, his approach). Jesus used a very similar analogy about sowing seed in different types of soil and how only some people receive the seed as it was intended. However, Christians would argue something completely different than Buddha as to what defines whether a person is "good soil" or "bad soil" (or Buddha's reverse - "dust in the eyes" or "dust free").

The problem with calling this The Dust Bowl is that you are presenting your views as the only one here on UM who has "clear vision" - or if not that, at least that by posting your opinion others will search the mystics and have their vision made clear (either way, by searching the information YOU present and then branching out, that will clear the vision). Unfortunately, your view is not the only one represented here on UM. We have Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Deists, Pagans, Jews, and pretty much everything else around. Thus when thinking of a dust bowl, who's eyes are clear and who's are muddy? All, none, one, some, everyone will have their own opinion which may or may not agree with your view.

That's just my thoughts on the matter

~ Regards,

[Shabd Mystic]

Perhaps the Buddha would agree with you. However, not everyone agrees with the Buddha (or more correctly, his approach). Jesus used a very similar analogy about sowing seed in different types of soil and how only some people receive the seed as it was intended. However, Christians would argue something completely different than Buddha as to what defines whether a person is "good soil" or "bad soil" (or Buddha's reverse - "dust in the eyes" or "dust free").

The problem with calling this The Dust Bowl is that you are presenting your views as the only one here on UM who has "clear vision" - or if not that, at least that by posting your opinion others will search the mystics and have their vision made clear (either way, by searching the information YOU present and then branching out, that will clear the vision). Unfortunately, your view is not the only one represented here on UM. We have Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Deists, Pagans, Jews, and pretty much everything else around. Thus when thinking of a dust bowl, who's eyes are clear and who's are muddy? All, none, one, some, everyone will have their own opinion which may or may not agree with your view.

That's just my thoughts on the matter

~ Regards,

I'm not speaking about "my views" at all. I'm speaking about the fact that I have made SEVERAL posts in defense of the idea that "the kingdom of heaven is within you" and that it can be accessed by anyone in this very lifetime and will give anyone who accesses it greater treasure than a human mind can even begin to imagine, and I've backed that idea with dozens of examples of how the exact same thing was said by many famous Mystics, including Jesus Christ, and not even a single person has asked where to find any more information about it so they might at least try to find proof that it isn't the truth. It's as if I said there is a bag of diamonds in your closet and was completely ignored for all kinds of different reasons.

The possibility that it "could be true" never entered the picture. If even that possibility was there anyone with half a brain would surely want to find out more, even if just to PROVE to themselves that it couldn't be true so they wouldn't blow this chance they've been given and live out their life without ever finding the way to heaven. But the possibility that it "might be true" never even showed it's face because everyone already KNEW the truth, even though "the truth" was completely different for many different people. And in NO case were any of those truths anything that could be absolutely proven to them.

Even the mystics who are able to obtain different types of "proofs" that "God is real" have not come close to obtaining absolute proof or they would never be on this message board. They too are convinced they've already got the "answers" even though I've posted plenty of evidence from assorted great Mystics that say they haven't. The mystics can be on any of dozens of paths yet I've posted tons of quotes and articles that explain how even the "greatest" of those paths can only offer something that is 'temporary" and that the Path i speak of is permanent and all that will be PROVEN to anyone who cares for proof instead of "beliefs," but, of course, that could never be possible because they already found the truth. Just like the Christians, the Atheists and everyone else.

The entire purpose of this thread was to attempt to prove what countless Mystics have said for eons, and what Buddha said in that quote, and that is that NOBODY will ever even consider the possibility that their own beliefs might not be "right" except for the rarest of human beings. Everyone is so completely enmeshed in their own egos that they believe "I am right and everyone who has any other idea is wrong." It doesn't matter whether or not anything I said or posted might have been right or might have been wrong. The fact is that nobody would even consider the possibility that it "might" be right. They already KNOW what's right so anything that doesn't agree with that has to be wrong.

It didn't matter who came here, whether they were Christians, mystics or the Atheists wanting to tell everyone how smart they were and how foolish everyone else was, everyone was here to expound their own viewpoints and nobody was the slightest bit interested in even checking out anything else, no matter what was presented to try to make them even slightly curious. No curiosity can be awoken in people who already know all the answers.

The reason for this thread's existence was to prove that to myself, and some others I know, though I'd foolishly held out some hope that maybe all the Masters/Mystics had been speaking more figuratively than literally. This thread proved they were speaking very literally and the fact is that I would have dozens of people trying to argue with even that if it wasn't for the fact that so few even gave this thread a glance. This thread has averaged about 15 views for every post while countless others about ghosts and UFOs and Christian beliefs and everything else get tons of hits. This thread didn't agree with most people's ideas so there was little interest in anything other than the possibility of debating what I posted, but there was too much "reading" required to do even that so few could even be bothered. I mean, who wants to bother investing time in reading something that could give them riches beyond belief well before they die? There are other threads where they can "argue" that don't require much reading.

I'm not "complaining." I find it incredibly funny. It's like the analogy I used earlier about a billionaire coming here and telling everyone he wants to give them a ton of money for free and getting nobody even slightly interested because they all just want to talk about how much they already have or how much they've been promised to get years from now by some other source.

It's exactly what Buddha said and it's exactly what Jesus Christ experienced and exactly what countless great Mystics experienced. If they couldn't give away what they had to offer everyone, how on earth is a nobody like me going to even get anyone to go check "them" out? There was no chance whatsoever. This thread proved that beyond any doubt. And it proved what I desperately needed to see, that I am wasting my very precious time even talking about it. The time it takes me to type this drivel can be spent in actual pursuit of the treasure no one else is interested in. I needed to have that jammed down my throat and so I put a lot of effort into this thread so that I'd be left no doubt whatsoever. And that's exactly what happened.

This hasn't been a thread about who is right and who is wrong, though that's how everyone who came here saw it. It's been a thread about how nobody could ever see even the possibility that anything I shared "might" be true, no matter how much evidence I continued to post. People only see what they want to see. And this board is in existence so people can either "connect" with others who agree with them or they can argue with people who don't.

People who come here with a truly open mind and "seeking" in any way are the rarest of the rare and that's true worldwide. And any attempt to "share" anything here is a complete waste of time unless it is about something other people already believe. It's a "dust bowl, plain and simple.

.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Shabd Mystic

[J. K.]

Aren't you, in effect, making the same type of claim? That Mysticism is right and all others are wrong? I respect your belief (and your right to belief) and have asked questions to learn about your belief. My reality is that I already have a belief system which has been my own treasure for decades. And there is a similarity between the two: Christianity does teach that you should strive to bring your "self" in submission, and live in order to further God's Kingdom. We become an avatar of Jesus, so to speak. I know that you believe that Christianity is misguided, and you have the right to do so. However, I sense that you have become--disappointed?--that more people are not inquiring about Mysticism. I submit to you the possibility that changing one's belief system may not be as much about choice as it is reacting to a life-changing event. Where one finds solace, one finds life.

[Shabd Mystic]

Aren't you, in effect, making the same type of claim? That Mysticism is right and all others are wrong? I respect your belief (and your right to belief) and have asked questions to learn about your belief. My reality is that I already have a belief system which has been my own treasure for decades. And there is a similarity between the two: Christianity does teach that you should strive to bring your "self" in submission, and live in order to further God's Kingdom. We become an avatar of Jesus, so to speak. I know that you believe that Christianity is misguided, and you have the right to do so. However, I sense that you have become--disappointed?--that more people are not inquiring about Mysticism. I submit to you the possibility that changing one's belief system may not be as much about choice as it is reacting to a life-changing event. Where one finds solace, one finds life.

Not disappointed at all. Just amazed to actually witness what I was told would surely happen. Amazed that NOTHING that was said even caused a murmur of interest. The shear fact that what I reported didn't in any way even threaten anyone's Christianity, and even spelled out that nobody had to leave whatever religion they believed in because it's in no way a religion, never mattered to anyone.

The fact that there are hundreds of thousands of Christians who have been following the Path for years and are still active members of their churches didn't matter. Nothing mattered. The world is filled to the brim with people who "already know" all they need to know about spirituality. If they felt the same way about science, I'd probably be one of the few people today with a computer.

There is nothing disappointing because even if 100 people proved to be interested all I could do was to lead them to more information and never hear from them again. There was nothing in it for me whatsoever. If I was the only person on the planet who did this it wouldn't matter because it's something done alone. Nobody else traverses the heavens with me (except the "radiant form" of the Master as Jesus did with His disciples whenever they described Him "glowing" or seeing Him on a "mountain," which describes "inner" events). I get there solely based on my own actions. What anyone else does or believes can't affect that in any way.

This was more of an experiment than anything else, and though I was told what the results would be, it is still stunning to see happen. What I was describing in great detail wasn't any sort of "religion" because it has no "beliefs" or rituals or donations or churches or anything like that. All it was was a way where anyone who cared to could literally travel to every one of the heavens, meet face to face with Jesus or Moses or anyone they desired to meet, have their entire life turn around as all "negative" qualities vanished and were replaced only with love and kindness, completely lose any fear of death whatsoever (because they "conquered" death), have even the worse thing imaginable happen to them or to family and they would be unaffected emotionally and be able to help others tremendously, and all kinds of other amazing things (plus the fact that they KNEW that at death they were going to the highest possible heaven because they'd been there in life), but all that got was laughter or yawns.

I "expected" it but I still can't truly believe it happened. It is literally VERY funny to me. "Knowing" what the human mind is like is nothing like seeing it in action. All these very same people drool over the chance to get a new and better car, or home or iPhone or countless other things. But when "new and better" challenges their beliefs and the possibility that "new and better" might be real means what they already have might be wrong, or just less than what they believed, then it becomes a challenge to their egos, so it can't possibly be "real." In everything in life people are hungry for something "better." Just not anything regarding whatever they believe about God, or His nonexistence.

They go through life never happy for long with what they have and looking to "improve" it. But not their "beliefs" because while improving their material possessions means they are becoming "better," or more people are envying them, changing their beliefs means they were "wrong" and they can't handle that. Getting a new and better car means they have "improved themselves" and have become "richer." It looks good for them. Finding a "new and improved" spiritual belief means they might have to leave their little community where everyone believes they are "special," so they believe they already have the "ultimate" and who wants to ever "move up?"

Even if it is "moving up" they'd lose the prestige and connections they had, and that's more important NOW than even the most incredible gains. Nobody ever understands that but that's what holds them back in spiritual matters. If they had the same drives in spiritual matters as they do in getting the latest and greatest "toys" with which to show how "special" they were, eventually nearly everyone would find the greatest possible spiritual Path. But the personal motivations are very different for spirituality.

It's much more important to believe that whatever they now believe is "right" (even Atheistic) than to ever be concerned with making sure they are right. Making sure they are right is about the "future" while being right is about the "now." And it's much more important to the human ego to have people think they are right (especially themselves) than to ever risk thinking they could be wrong so that they might be able to find what is truly right.

That's just human psychology. It might be screwed up, but that's the human mind. Only a tiny minority of people are able to live with the thought that they might be wrong, and who care more about BEING right than in having other people think they are right. Those people are the true definition of "seekers" ("seek and ye shall find").

The vast majority are the complete opposite because, although many will challenge their current beliefs and look for something more, they are still so driven to "be right" that they latch on to whatever sounds "better" and once they do, nothing can ever challenge that, no matter how ridiculous it is. Just look at Scientology or countless other bizarre cults throughout history and you see perfect cases of the human mind in action when it comes to spirituality. Without getting into all that and breaking it down, it comes down once again to the human ego and the fact that once someone chooses to believe something, NOTHING is going to change that, no matter what is tried.

It's too essential to the human ego to think themselves right and think all who disagree with them are wrong. And even the one single "belief" in existence that promises the most, and which can be personally verified, and with "faith" and "dogma" not even existing, can't even raise an eyelid. Because what is right "is whatever I believe is right.!!" And religions and cults and Atheist beliefs all thrive because of that. The great Mystics all have said the human mind is fully in the devil's control. Just examine every moment of your past week honestly and you will see that (though few can ever do so). "Mind" works in opposition to "soul." Mind has to be "controlled" in order to allow soul to come to the forefront. Mind has to be stilled so soul (God) can begin to "run the show." (Be still and know that I am God.")

As long as mind is "in charge" (and it is fully in charge) we are always chasing "pleasures," whether in food, drink, sex, possessions, or countless other things. The mind is a tremendous foe (literally, not figuratively). It even convinces us we are in control because we don't eat that tremendous piece of cheesecake because we are trying to lose weight ,or we don't accept the offer of the gorgeous blond to go have drinks because we love our wives. We have such "proof" that we are in control of our minds and never realize that if we were in control we would never even allow there to be any such temptations or desires.

Once all desires go away you are left with the wonderful (and rare) state of perfect contentment. You are happy with what you have and have no desire for anything at all. It's a wonderful state and tremendously freeing, but the human mind won't allow that until you begin to gain control of it. And you will NEVER meet God, or even come close to the ultimate heaven (before or after death) until you can fully control your own mind (that alone is a rare state for most but that is just the beginning of the "journey").

Until you control the mind, the mind controls you. And the mind wants most of all to never have you understand this. And the absolute most important thing to it is to have you locked into whatever belief you have, whether it be organized religion, agnosticism, atheism, or any of the many mystical paths that can bring you "high" but never allow you out of it's powerful grip.

And the power of the mind has been glaringly shown in this thread but there is NOBODY who will ever be able to see that. Nobody. I will be seen as the deluded fool who doesn't have a clue, lol. But that's all right because I proved what I came to prove. And I can't even tell you how freeing that is for me. In so many ways.

People will continue to believe I was saying "I'm right" and "you are wrong" and never even have a chance to see what I was actually saying because the "mind" OWNS them, and they will only believe what their "boss" wants them to believe. I have no interest in "beliefs." I only care about "facts." Everyone else can enjoy their beliefs while i enjoy my facts. That's a fine tradeoff for me.

.

[Shabd Mystic]

J.K., and a few others here,

I just wanted to say that I find it VERY impressive that you even bother reading some of this stuff. My life is filled with people who can't be bothered reading more than a paragraph or two of anything I write because they have much more "important things to do" than waste a few minutes reading some words.

Just the fact that there are people trudging through all this mess shows a LOT of very good things, even if they don't believe a word of it. That alone shows the soul of a "seeker" even if the mind currently shows no such thing.

I'm sure this won't even be seen as the compliment it's meant as, lol, but I hope you will at least realize I was "trying" to compliment you even if I'm poor at communicating that.

[+Paranoid Android]

I'm not speaking about "my views" at all. I'm speaking about the fact that I have made SEVERAL posts in defense of the idea that "the kingdom of heaven is within you" and that it can be accessed by anyone in this very lifetime and will give anyone who accesses it greater treasure than a human mind can even begin to imagine, and I've backed that idea with dozens of examples of how the exact same thing was said by many famous Mystics, including Jesus Christ, and not even a single person has asked where to find any more information about it so they might at least try to find proof that it isn't the truth. It's as if I said there is a bag of diamonds in your closet and was completely ignored for all kinds of different reasons.

Why search for a bag of diamonds in the closet when I already have access to a whole diamond mine whereby I can get as many diamonds as I want.

I've looked at your opinion, Shabd, I've just come to believe it to be wrong. And for that, I am said to have dust in my eyes, because I won't agree. You know there was a time in my life when I wasn't a Christian. Yes, for 19 or 20 years I spent my life living as a non-Christian. Then I "opened my eyes" and found Christ. Now you're saying they are full of dust because I refuse to look at mysticism. When the fact is I've looked at it (albeit in no huge detail) and found it lacking. I did not find that lack in Christ, and the last 12 years of my life as a Christian has proven this to me over and over again. The diamond mine is still there just waiting to be plucked as treasure is stored up (not literal money, of course, but spiritual riches).

People who come here with a truly open mind and "seeking" in any way are the rarest of the rare and that's true worldwide. And any attempt to "share" anything here is a complete waste of time unless it is about something other people already believe. It's a "dust bowl, plain and simple.

I'm curious, did you come here with a truly open mind?

I wrote a few more responses to your post in between, but I don't think it really adds anything to the discussion, so I'll leave it at this.

~ PA

Edited February 29, 2012 by Paranoid Android

[Habitat]

Shabd Mystic seems to be showing a bit of frustration at the unresponsiveness of the masses to his ideas. But......

"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 7:6).

That mysticism is the heart of true religion should be welcome news to those that are disposed to learn the truth, but less so to those who have lodged in bureaucratic religion. Hence.....

"And He said unto them, Unto you (the disciples of Jesus) it

is given to know the MYSTERY of the Kingdom of God: but unto them

that are without (the ones not called and chosen) all these

things are done in parables" (Mark 4:11).

So, it really lays with the individual to follow the path that to him seems right, it is possible to lead a horse to water, but the drinking is the horse's choice.