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Shabd Mystic

Was Christ a Yogi?

466 posts in this topic

Submit your will to Jesus by accepting His lordship over your life, allowing Him to regenerate your dead spirit through the power of the Holy Spirit, and dedicate your life to obey His teachings as a disciple.

So you wouldn't associate with any church or religious group ? That to me would be placing yourself under the direction of the "son of man", would it not ?

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In belief system of Christianity, the "divine" is only present, in the form of the Holy Spirit, in those who follow Jesus. Those who are not followers are spiritually dead.

More great "marketing."

"Join our church and be saved! Go anywhere else and be 'spiritually dead.'"

Definitely a "man made' sales pitch. No "God" would EVER create such a thing. Ever.

God wouldn't punish people who didn't "believe," let alone the countless people who never even "heard." "Beliefs" not only won't help you, it's beliefs that are what actually keep you from finding God. God has made 'the way out" available to everyone but the "churches" of every religion are working against allowing anyone to ever find that way "out." They are all hung up on the words of dead Mystics who were only here for those who were ready THEN. When the Mystic was alive. "While I am in the world, I am the light of the World." (Note the first part of that statement. Why was Jesus specifying that if He was going to continue being "the light of the world" even after He was crucified?)

God puts "the way Home" out there for Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, and all others, but everyone is so wrapped up in their own "beliefs" (ego) that few ever even think to look anywhere else. (Looking elsewhere would mean you didn't "believe" so you'd automatically lose everything. Great marketing once again!)

It is ego which is separating us from God. It's the ONLY thing. When the ego dies all that remains is God. When "I" ceases then "Thou" fills the void.

Even the Bible says in so many places and so many ways how God can be found but the words are interpreted by "man" and man doesn't have a clue that such things as "Be still and know that I am God" is referring to "stilling the mind" (AKA ego). No, that just means, "stop moving around and think about God." Ya, sure it does. :lol:

The "Divine" is present within everyone. That's how "life" exists. But it's only those who are able to access It and come face to face with It, before they die, who are ever going to "realize" It. (AKA "God realization," which is what Jesus experienced, as that means the ego has died and the person becomes One with God).

And no "books" or "beliefs" or "hopes" or "rituals" of any kind will ever help in any way other than in making life a bit more comfortable because you will believe the afterlife will be something other than what it actually will be. So, to Christians, and Muslims and everyone else, I say, enjoy your "beliefs." They will be comforting for the next several years (I hope). But for the trillions and trillions and trillions of years that make up "eternity," they aren't going to help in any way.

For those who want to find God, "seek and ye shall find." For those who have better things to do with their very limited time here, just "believe." ;)

.

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So you wouldn't associate with any church or religious group ? That to me would be placing yourself under the direction of the "son of man", would it not ?

Associating with a church - a gathering of believers - would be considered part of discipleship. Fellowship with other believers is an important part of growing as a disciple. "Son of man" is a reference to the humanity of Jesus.

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Submit your will to Jesus by accepting His lordship over your life, allowing Him to regenerate your dead spirit through the power of the Holy Spirit, and dedicate your life to obey His teachings as a disciple.

I have never met a Christian who dedicated their life to obeying His teachings. I met a TON who claimed they did, and some who even believed they did, but none came close to actually doing it.

.

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Associating with a church - a gathering of believers - would be considered part of discipleship. Fellowship with other believers is an important part of growing as a disciple. "Son of man" is a reference to the humanity of Jesus.

Only in the interpretation of men seeking to form a church. Discipleship is a one-on-one thing. There can be no other way. It's you and God. Nobody else. (That doesn't mean you don't continue to live your life and to act with compassion to your fellow man, but that is a "result" of your "discipleship" not a cause of it.)

The Bible even says to pray in solitude. God can only be reached "within." There are no "group" excursions. :P

.

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Associating with a church - a gathering of believers - would be considered part of discipleship. Fellowship with other believers is an important part of growing as a disciple. "Son of man" is a reference to the humanity of Jesus.

Would be considered discipleship by whom ? "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help."

That is not referring to Jesus at all, it is a reference to all people, and is saying put your trust wholly in God. Fellowship is in fact contrary to the solitary pursuit of the kingdom, you have failed to understand the truth at all.

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I'm merely sharing my viewpoint on the question based upon my interpretation of the Bible. I realize that it is one of many interpretations, and that it is neither popular nor politically correct. However, it is the truth upon which I have chosen to base my life. Others are free, as always, to have their own belief systems.

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Jesus chided some of his followers for their constant references to "dead prophets", on the basis that the "living God" that they could access was of far more value to them. Little has changed, with millions jabbering about Jesus, but ignoring the living God within them.

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Submit your will to Jesus by accepting His lordship over your life, allowing Him to regenerate your dead spirit through the power of the Holy Spirit, and dedicate your life to obey His teachings as a disciple.

I'm in agreement with JK over an easy definition to "follow".

Keven

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I'm in agreement with JK over an easy definition to "follow".

Keven

We ought to be concerned with what is right, not with what is easy. Which is not to say that what is right, is difficult.

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We ought to be concerned with what is right, not with what is easy. Which is not to say that what is right, is difficult.

It was a simple question with a simple answer, and in it's simplicity I agreed with it in its essence.

This particular thread is about whether Christ is a yogi or not. Maybe we should start a new thread.

Keven

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It was a simple question with a simple answer, and in it's simplicity I agreed with it in its essence.

This particular thread is about whether Christ is a yogi or not. Maybe we should start a new thread.

Keven

I don't think we are too far off track, a yogi is a mystic, Jesus was a mystic, to "follow" Jesus does not mean to hang out with like-minded people, it means to be like Jesus and embrace mysticism, the "flock" are children of the church, sheep that the shepherd (church heirarchy) herds according to his dictates. They are not followers of Christ, as much as they like to think they are. They are the followers of the "son of man" that was declared to be of no help.

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What I have to wonder is if Christianity was truly God's idea, why didn't He do a better job with it? Why are there so many questions and contradictions and multiple interpretations of everything?

When Jesus was actually here, teaching His disciples, there wasn't a problem. If there was a question Jesus was there to answer it.

But if He, or God, actually had planned for Jesus to come to tell the world "the way" you'd think He would have done a better job of it.

If they'd planned on forming a religion with His teachings you'd think He would have, after announcing His next "sermon," grabbed Mary Magdeline and told her that when she came to hear the sermon to "bring a pen and some papyrus."

I mean, how dumb do people think God really is? He knows how thick humans are. He knows nobody is going to remember anything Jesus taught 40 or 50 years earlier. Heck, if someone tells you something today you won't remember 50% of it tomorrow.

Didn't God ever think of having anyone "take notes?"

If I didn't know better, I'd think Jesus only came for those who were alive that were ready to hear how to get to heaven. I'd even believe that what He taught was so compelling that the word spread and people began to write things down and to talk about His teachings. And soon He became much more popular than He was when he was alive. (That "crucifixion" thing might give a hint as to His popularity during His lifetime.)

After some time, 200-300 years, there was so much written down, and He was gaining such popularity, that people started seeing "dollar signs" and realizing they needed to get His supposed teachings into a big book and then form a church around whatever they decided were the best "teachings."

That's how all religions have come into being since the dawn of time. A Mystic comes and "gathers His sheep" from those who are ready, and then when He dies, people take a bunch of the things he taught and form a business ... umm ... I mean a religion.

Meanwhile the very same Perfect Mystic comes in some other form for the sheep who are ready to go Home and God has continued to send such Mystics since the dawn of time. There has never been a period where the earth has been without one, but we only hear about the ones who had religions formed after they died. (The goal of all of us is to find such a Mystic and then become a mystic ourselves - AKA one who meditates and follows His instructions on how to find Him - so we can finally unite with God and become just like Jesus, as He plainly described).

.

I don't think we are too far off track, a yogi is a mystic, Jesus was a mystic, to "follow" Jesus does not mean to hang out with like-minded people, it means to be like Jesus and embrace mysticism, the "flock" are children of the church, sheep that the shepherd (church heirarchy) herds according to his dictates. They are not followers of Christ, as much as they like to think they are. They are the followers of the "son of man" that was declared to be of no help.

Yet another great post!

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From Sawan Singh - "Intoxication Of The Naam"

The plains of our universe,

compared to the vast inner expanse,

Are like a single hair flung in a raging sea.

There are, however, concealed

ladders placed on this earth;

Rising step by step, one

reaches the high Heaven.

~ Rumi

For reaching every inner stage, a ladder has been provided. The way is within. Guru Ram Das says that "Ram" of the saints has sway over millions upon millions of such worlds, and that He resides within you. Raise your soul to this "Ram," and merge in Him by listening to the celestial sound of the Life-Stream. Your joy will be indescribable. When you listen to that Sound Current, the mind will be controlled.

This is the sovereign remedy for conquering the mind which is always seeking pleasure in outside objects. If you wish to subdue the mind, you must withdraw from the body up to the eye-level, and enter the inner spiritual planes. There, the Water of Life is showering down. With the joy of drinking it, the mind will give up worldly delights because there is no greater joy elsewhere.

This teaching is for all mankind. You have to go within whether you are a Hindu or a Muslim, or a member of any other religion. Just as the bodily limbs, hands, ears, nose, etc., are similar in all people, so too, the "way up" is the same for all. Our languages and religions may vary, but all heavenly regions are the same for everybody.

Die while living,

And gain the Home

you go to after death.

~ Nanak

Naam is inaccessible until you learn to rise above the physical body.

Guru Ram Das says that if you keep on reciting "Ram, Ram" you do not realize the Ram Power, because He is not a verbal expression. "Ram" is spiritual Light, Power or Energy. He is the life of creation and of all the spiritual realms. You may call him Ishwar, Parameshwar, Khuda, or God. People forget the reality and fight over words instead of realizing Him. They devote their lives to the reading of the scriptures, but they get nowhere.

The soul neither goes within, nor does it encounter the Spirit and Power of the Supreme Being. Were we, on the contrary, to disregard the promptings of the mind and follow the Teacher's bidding, we would find God. The task, however, is difficult. The mind is obstinate and does not give up its tactics. Rather, it regards itself as very wise. Whenever man fails, it is because of the mind which continues to claim that it is rendering the best counsel-although subsequently it is proved wrong. Man keeps falling into error, but the mind does not submit.

Those who are not dyed in God's love are the disciples of the mind and worldly riches. They waste their life for nothing. They do not withdraw into themselves and, going behind the veil, ascend into their higher self.

Chasing money. they rush

around incessantly!

Keep such people at a

distance of millions

of miles.

The distance between the seekers of material wealth, and the lovers of God, is millions of miles. The former crave for the world, and the latter want only God. How can the two ever think alike?

In the entire world there are only two things of worth: God and His lovers. All else is perishable. What words can you offer which can do justice to the lovers of God? How will you describe them? In answering, the Teacher says that they are like the drops of water mingling in the ocean: They become one with Him. The soul has come into being through the Will of God (Amaar-e-Rabbi) , and it must merge in God and become God. In- deed, for the soul, there is no other resting place but God, the source and fountainhead of all that is.

.

Edited by Shabd Mystic

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"O Seeker of God, thou hast lost God in

the waves of the ocean of thy mind."

(Guru Arjan)

"One and same bed occupy the twain,

She and her spouse.

And He doth keep awakening her in vain,

But sleeping doth she lie."

(Guru Arjan)

"Why dost thou shout and pine for the Lord?

When He is there beside thee."

(Paltu Sahib)

"Why dost thou seek thy love,

much wander vext.

Way to Him is above,

Shah Rag's* for the quest."

(Tulsi Sahib)

(*Shah Rag in Arabic; a central current or canal in the finer body.)

"The kingdom of heaven is within you."

(Jesus Christ)

"A wonder 'tis that like the moth

To different sides the folks do run.

They go about, embrace the walls,

And yet ignore the Light within."

(Shamas-i-Tabriz)

.

Edited by Shabd Mystic

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Any stress on the ecstatic in mystical union ought to be strongly tempered by the need to emphasise the 'main game', which is the quest for higher purpose and meaning, in the service of the Supreme Good.

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Any stress on the ecstatic in mystical union ought to be strongly tempered by the need to emphasise the 'main game', which is the quest for higher purpose and meaning, in the service of the Supreme Good.

Ya, the "ecstasies" are fun to experience when they first arrive but if you don't move quickly past such traps you won't get far at all. They are merely "kid's games."

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Of course none of this will ever have a chance of "getting through" because with Christianity all you have to do in order to get "eternity in Paradise" is to BELIEVE. Who on earth is ever going to risk such a sweet deal by questioning anything they are told? It's history's greatest multilevel marketing scheme!

Granted that some Christians do think this, but if this is the limit of your understanding of Christianity then you still have much to learn. Try James 2 for a start :tu:

~ PA

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He must be a second-rate God since Jesus didn't become "enlightened" until His Master, John the Baptist, "baptized" Him and the "Heavens opened up" to Him.

You'd think the "Son of God" would have been just as much His Son when He was a day old. But Christians like to believe that a "Toddler from heaven" was bouncing around but nobody even noticed. It's just a "coincidence" that Jesus wasn't noticed until He was baptized by John the Baptist.

Maybe Jesus was just clueless about His powers until then. Or maybe He was doing the same "raising the dead" sort of things for many years before then but nobody else noticed.

Forget all those Biblical inconsistencies. Forget all those things that don't make sense. Forget the fact that you have to wait until you are dead to find out whether anything you chose to believe is true. That was "God's" way. What sort of God would He be to have anything that makes perfect sense and that you can actually VERIFY is true before you die? I'm too busy trying to make money to bother with all that.

Give me that "believe" deal! Who wants to have to do any sort of "work" in order to get to heaven? What sort of God would ever expect anything like that?

You put quotations around the word "enlightened" as though you were quoting that from scripture. It is not scripture. John the Baptist was not His Master. According to the Old Testament Law, when a priest began his ministry, he had to be baptized by an already officiating priest. Priesthood was inherited except in the priesthood of Melchisedec. John's father, Zacharias, was a priest, John was a priest. John was baptizing Jesus after the order of Melchisedec to begin His ministry.

The shepherds noticed when the pre-toddler came from heaven. The wise men noticed when the toddler came from heaven. The old gentlemen when the baby was forty days old and brought into the temple noticed Him. The Prophetess Anna who had been preaching to the Jews in the temple that the signs were being fulfilled and right for the coming of the Messiah noticed this forty day old baby when He was brought into the the temple, too.

"God confounds the wise with the foolish things." That's why Jesus didn't come to earth fully grown on a white horse and a conquering army. God does "His will in the armies of heaven and on earth and none can stay His hand." God proves what no one else can say from the beginning what He is going to do - - - way back in Genesis and do it 4,000 years later-- when He said this one would come from the seed of a woman. A woman doesn't have a seed. But Jesus came from her male lineage on Woman's side. Jesus called His earthly mother, Mary, "Woman." Mary was a descendant of the Women, Eve, the first Jewish woman.

By the way, the heavenly Father did not impregnate the Blessed Virgin Mary. She was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. (The Godhead is Three in One.) As pure as Mary was, she was human. She was born of human parents. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. All must die." She eventually died. If she didn't die (and there is no scripture to support that she didn't) then that scripture is a lie.

Although, you are right. She was among the 120 in the Upper Room of men and women who received on Pentecost the baptism of the Holy Spirit's power to preach. 120 is the same number of priests officiating when Solomon's Temple began. After having Jesus, as a mature woman Mary had other children with Joseph. One brother, James, became a church leader after Jesus returned to heaven. Flesh is made of clay. Clay is corruptible. Clay is short of the glory of God. Clay is not pure enough to live forever in heaven. That part of humans must die. And that is the only part of Jesus that died.

There is no scripture for the Blessed Virgin Mary being spotless. Only Jesus was spotless. If she was, she could have been our sacrifice for sin and Jesus would not have needed to come to earth and died for His people.

You said:

Of course none of this will ever have a chance of "getting through" because with Christianity all you have to do in order to get "eternity in Paradise" is to BELIEVE. Who on earth is ever going to risk such a sweet deal by questioning anything they are told? It's history's greatest multilevel marketing scheme!

My answer:

If believing merits one's eternal salvation, then it is a work. If it is a requirement for salvation, man is the actual saviour if his decision trumps over what Jesus did. No, believing is a gift, which man cannot not muster up himself. If he could he has every right to boast he was smart enough, or lucky enough to save himself in time. "Whosoever believeth HATH (past tense - already has) everlasting life." Making believing the evidence. Not the way to get it.

Salvation is 100% by the blood of the spotless Lamb. Add anything to the blood, (accepting, believing, repenting, being baptized, etc.) and you dilute the blood and worked your way to salvation. There is also two different salvations in the Bible. The eternal one is by the blood and nothing else. The second salvation while on this earth, requires "also walking" in obedience and laboring for Fruit of the Spirit. There's lots of works of believing and prayer goes into that salvation.

God bless you all is my prayer.

Edited by Copen

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Granted that some Christians do think this, but if this is the limit of your understanding of Christianity then you still have much to learn.

Well, I guess I'll have to give you that. My understanding of "Christianity" is limited (mostly by the 2,000 varieties of "Christianity" there are out there).

I'm really not interested enough in Christianity to learn all the many different teachings and interpretations and countless other areas of dispute. What's true of one sect is not true in another.

I'm not interested in "Christianity." I only care about the teachings of Christ. And the two are miles apart.

.

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You put quotations around the word "enlightened" as though you were quoting that from scripture. It is not scripture. John the Baptist was not His Master. According to the Old Testament Law, when a priest began his ministry, he had to be baptized by an already officiating priest. Priesthood was inherited except in the priesthood of Melchisedec. John's father, Zacharias, was a priest, John was a priest. John was baptizing Jesus after the order of Melchisedec to begin His ministry.

The shepherds noticed when the pre-toddler came from heaven. The wise men noticed when the toddler came from heaven. The old gentlemen when the baby was forty days old and brought into the temple noticed Him. The Prophetess Anna who had been preaching to the Jews in the temple that the signs were being fulfilled and right for the coming of the Messiah noticed this forty day old baby when He was brought into the the temple, too.

"God confounds the wise with the foolish things." That's why Jesus didn't come to earth fully grown on a white horse and a conquering army. God does "His will in the armies of heaven and on earth and none can stay His hand." God proves what no one else can say from the beginning what He is going to do - - - way back in Genesis and do it 4,000 years later-- when He said this one would come from the seed of a woman. A woman doesn't have a seed. But Jesus came from her male lineage on Woman's side. Jesus called His earthly mother, Mary, "Woman." Mary was a descendant of the Women, Eve, the first Jewish woman.

By the way, the heavenly Father did not impregnate the Blessed Virgin Mary. She was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. (The Godhead is Three in One.) As pure as Mary was, she was human. She was born of human parents. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. All must die." She eventually died. If she didn't die (and there is no scripture to support that she didn't) then that scripture is a lie.

Although, you are right. She was among the 120 in the Upper Room of men and women who received on Pentecost the baptism of the Holy Spirit's power to preach. 120 is the same number of priests officiating when Solomon's Temple began. After having Jesus, as a mature woman Mary had other children with Joseph. One brother, James, became a church leader after Jesus returned to heaven. Flesh is made of clay. Clay is corruptible. Clay is short of the glory of God. Clay is not pure enough to live forever in heaven. That part of humans must die. And that is the only part of Jesus that died.

There is no scripture for the Blessed Virgin Mary being spotless. Only Jesus was spotless. If she was, she could have been our sacrifice for sin and Jesus would not have needed to come to earth and died for His people.

You said:

Of course none of this will ever have a chance of "getting through" because with Christianity all you have to do in order to get "eternity in Paradise" is to BELIEVE. Who on earth is ever going to risk such a sweet deal by questioning anything they are told? It's history's greatest multilevel marketing scheme!

My answer:

If believing merits one's eternal salvation, then it is a work. If it is a requirement for salvation, man is the actual saviour if his decision trumps over what Jesus did. No, believing is a gift, which man cannot not muster up himself. If he could he has every right to boast he was smart enough, or lucky enough to save himself in time. "Whosoever believeth HATH (past tense - already has) everlasting life." Making believing the evidence. Not the way to get it.

Salvation is 100% by the blood of the spotless Lamb. Add anything to the blood, (accepting, believing, repenting, being baptized, etc.) and you dilute the blood and worked your way to salvation. There is also two different salvations in the Bible. The eternal one is by the blood and nothing else. The second salvation while on this earth, requires "also walking" in obedience and laboring for Fruit of the Spirit. There's lots of works of believing and prayer goes into that salvation.

God bless you all is my prayer.

Thanks for this. You perfectly proved my point. I couldn't have done it better myself. ;)

.

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It always amuses me to see Christians argue for their beliefs. They spout off all the tried and true things they've been taught but they don't even realize they aren't worshiping Jesus. They are worshiping Paul. The Christian religion is all about Paul. Jesus barely even makes an appearance in the greater scheme of things. :lol:

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Well, I guess I'll have to give you that. My understanding of "Christianity" is limited (mostly by the 2,000 varieties of "Christianity" there are out there).

I'm really not interested enough in Christianity to learn all the many different teachings and interpretations and countless other areas of dispute. What's true of one sect is not true in another.

There are not thousands of varieties, though I understand why you may think there is. There is only one Christianity. The problem is that humans are fallible and so we get some things wrong. If a church or denomination claims to be the only one with the complete truth I would say they are one of the few "wrong" churches. Most denominations have minor variations but would still hold the same core teachings.

I'm not interested in "Christianity." I only care about the teachings of Christ. And the two are miles apart.

Which is fair enough, as long as you understand what Christ actually taught, rather than trying to fit him into a Hindu ideology.

Going back to your comment that all Christianity says we need is "belief", Jesus said otherwise - "Repent AND believe, for the kingdom of heaven is near". Not just believe but repent and believe. Do you know what Christ means by "repent"?

Just a thought,

~ PA

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It always amuses me to see Christians argue for their beliefs. They spout off all the tried and true things they've been taught but they don't even realize they aren't worshiping Jesus. They are worshiping Paul. The Christian religion is all about Paul. Jesus barely even makes an appearance in the greater scheme of things. :lol:

You are of course free to hold any opinion you like. Funny thing is, in your last post you say you don't know much about what Christianity teaches and you don't care to because you are more interested in what Christ teaches. Yet now you speak as if expert enough to make a value judgement on Jesus vs Paul.

I'm thinking you've never read Paul's teachings and are just repeating something you read or heard from someone else that you trust. Am I close?

~ PA

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"Worship" of anyone, or anything is tantamount to madness.

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