Would you take an ID marker?

[+and-then]

Why is a chip or ID interpreted as the mark of the beast?

The "mark" will be on the right hand or forehead. If it is to be used to allow people to transact business then the assumption is that it is a unique ID of some sort. But it is just an assumption. Some folks think it could be a tattoo that is scanable. The RFID chip is easily implanted and can tie the individual to a database entry based on a 16 digit number. Since technology IS advancing so rapidly it may be obsolete soon. Skeptics will denounce anything that seems to fit the prophecy but they never seem to care that they're discussing methods and technologies that actually do something that could not have been dreamed of when the prophecy was written. Sure, a mark of some kind was in use back then to ID slaves or other property. But the prophecy covered all the earth. Today that could be accomplished. It would require a lot of money but it could be done and the very nature of government is to trend towards absolute control. So the prophecy takes less and less faith to believe as the years pass.

Reminds me of a quote by Aragorn in the Two Towers:Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?'

A man may do both, For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day! [answering Éothain of Rohan]

[aquatus1]

So, the whole "It'll happen! It may take a hundred years...or a thousand...or two thousand...and it may not actually be a mark...and it may not actually be only on the hand or the forehead...but, hey, it will happen!" doesn't really bother you?

I mean, are you really so comfortable referring it to it as a divine prophecy if we can just change any part of it willy-nilly? Seems like a pretty open-ended type of thing to do, you know?

[+and-then]

So, the whole "It'll happen! It may take a hundred years...or a thousand...or two thousand...and it may not actually be a mark...and it may not actually be only on the hand or the forehead...but, hey, it will happen!" doesn't really bother you?

I mean, are you really so comfortable referring it to it as a divine prophecy if we can just change any part of it willy-nilly? Seems like a pretty open-ended type of thing to do, you know?

Very comfortable. Why is it so difficult for you to grasp(or accept) that there are folks in the world who have what you'd call blind faith? It seems to offend something in your nature. That's not my intent by posting my beliefs. You discount anything as prophecy unless it meets your criteria of happening at a specific time/place. Assuming you believe in any prophecy (which I doubt) Jeremiah predicted the end of Israel about 40 years before the Babylonians conquered it. He didn't give a date. But it happened just as he said. He also predicted the diaspora in Babylon would last 70 years which was precisely correct. Before you waste both our time by refuting the importance of this - I SURRENDER!

It gets old trying to explain myself and prove every statement I make about my opinions and beliefs. If others here think I'm not worth the time to discuss things with then they can ignore me or excoriate me. I'm just here like everyone else - to enjoy the company and the discussions.

I've recently chosen to "ignore" a couple of members here who seem to make it a hobby to follow me from thread to thread so they can explain to me what a dimwit I am. I understand that my arguments are often weak by the standards used here but I do the best I can. I'm neither a PhD nor a debate champion. I finally took the extreme step of ignoring them because it was obvious we would probably never agree on anything and it was a waste of my time reading the thinly veiled insults. Nothing productive there...

And I did not say "it may not actually be a mark" just that the chip may not be THE mark. I fully believe that an identifier will be used at some point future to segregate believers from the rest of humanity. Why do I believe this? Because it was written in a text that I consider to be the utterance of a Creator God. If this makes me an idiot in your eyes - so be it.

[Rlyeh]

The "mark" will be on the right hand or forehead. If it is to be used to allow people to transact business then the assumption is that it is a unique ID of some sort. But it is just an assumption. Some folks think it could be a tattoo that is scanable. The RFID chip is easily implanted and can tie the individual to a database entry based on a 16 digit number. Since technology IS advancing so rapidly it may be obsolete soon. Skeptics will denounce anything that seems to fit the prophecy but they never seem to care that they're discussing methods and technologies that actually do something that could not have been dreamed of when the prophecy was written. Sure, a mark of some kind was in use back then to ID slaves or other property. But the prophecy covered all the earth. Today that could be accomplished. It would require a lot of money but it could be done and the very nature of government is to trend towards absolute control. So the prophecy takes less and less faith to believe as the years pass.

If the ID is on the left hand does it throw your whole theory out?

This is confirmation bias, grasp on to anything that is remotely similar and run with it.

[+and-then]

If the ID is on the left hand does it throw your whole theory out?

This is confirmation bias, grasp on to anything that is remotely similar and run with it.

I'm not familiar with "confirmation bias" but I'll research it. It's not my theory it's a prophecy from a 3000 year old book. The book says the mark will be in the right hand or forehead. There are many commentaries that dispute each other over the exact meaning. But the location of the mark is not in dispute. My point is that when the prediction was made by John of Patmos about 2000 years ago there was no known way for it to be done. The proof will be if it does actually happen. Today's technology makes it plausible that a globally interconnected system of credit could be put in place that could be restricted from certain individuals based on whether or not they willingly accept a unique identifier. A tattoo or chip or some other device that can be used as that identifier would be the "mark".

The point of the post was to have people ponder what they would do if such a thing DOES occur in their lifetimes. It's obvious that most would choose to go along and not question it. Most but not all...

[Rlyeh]

It's not my theory it's a prophecy from a 3000 year old book.

Please don't be disingenuous. You know full well the prophecy speaks nothing of a chip or ID marker, as such it is most definitely your (or someone else's) theory.

The point of the post was to have people ponder what they would do if such a thing DOES occur in their lifetimes. It's obvious that most would choose to go along and not question it. Most but not all...

This only shows you haven't bothered to read the responses.

[+and-then]

Please don't be disingenuous. You know full well the prophecy speaks nothing of a chip or ID marker, as such it is most definitely your (or someone else's) theory.

This only shows you haven't bothered to read the responses.

Sure thing man. Anything you say. You might examine your own dabbling with confirmation bias. It cuts both ways. Toodles...

[aquatus1]

Very comfortable.

Well, more power to you.

Why is it so difficult for you to grasp(or accept) that there are folks in the world who have what you'd call blind faith?

It really isn't that difficult. I just want to make absolutely sure before I make that decision.

It seems to offend something in your nature.

Well, yes, it does offend my sense of logic, but that is neither here nor there. They are your beliefs, and you are not required to support your beliefs with anything other than your opinion.

You discount anything as prophecy unless it meets your criteria of happening at a specific time/place.

Hmm...not quite.

Rather, I discount as verifiable or as useful any prophecy that has no defining limits to its possibilities. In other words, a prophecy that can mean anything doesn't really mean a whole lot.

Assuming you believe in any prophecy (which I doubt) Jeremiah predicted the end of Israel about 40 years before the Babylonians conquered it.

In all honesty, haven't done a lot of research into them.

It gets old trying to explain myself and prove every statement I make about my opinions and beliefs.

Are you under the impression you will not be having to do this in pretty much any discussion you have in your life, in one way or another? I suggest you get used to the notion that a disclaimer is going to be a standard part of your opinion. In fact, if you start off your discussion with that disclaimer, you pretty much set up anyone who tries to bait you with that tactic for a fall.

And I did not say "it may not actually be a mark" just that the chip may not be THE mark. I fully believe that an identifier will be used at some point future to segregate believers from the rest of humanity. Why do I believe this? Because it was written in a text that I consider to be the utterance of a Creator God. If this makes me an idiot in your eyes - so be it.

Not so much an idiot. Not so much blind faith either. I choose to believe that the anger you just displayed is due to an internal admission that, yeah, it really isn't a logical or reasonable position, but you know what, screw it, I'm believing it anyway.

And really, there is nothing wrong with that.

As I stated before, belief does not require logic or reason to support it. Beliefs are personal. A blind believer just believes, and completely ignores or denies anything which contradicts their belief. However, there are people who do take the time to think through and reason out their beliefs. They do apply logic, and they do apply reason, and when all is said and done, they look at all the information, and they look at their beliefs, and they simply nod their heads, bite the bullet, and choose to believe, even while fully acknowledge that it doesn't really make sense to.

Is that a contradiction? Is that unreasonable? No, not really. If we were looking at this while placing a bias on science and reason, sure, but science and reason is only one way to view the world, and really, not that old a method at that. If we look at this through the eyes of a faith, however, we see something a bit different.

I do not regard anyone who has faith as an idiot simply because they have faith. Everyone has faith in something; it is a necessary part of being human. Faith isn't what makes me question a persons intelligence. What makes me question their intelligence is the type of faith that they have.

Blind faith, a faith that shuts its eyes and closes its ears to anything but the glorious concept on its pedestal, that to me is repugnant. To believe without question is a violation of what we were created to be. Dogs are capable of blind faith; we, as God's greatest creation, made in His very image, are capable of more. Blind faith is an unworthy gift from us to Him.

A faith that questions, however, is different. A faith that has learned all it can about the opposition, that has studied its very foundation, that is capable of not only admitting to, but even teaching what its own weaknesses are, that is not a blind faith. That is a tested faith. That is a faith that has been strengthened by the fire that threatened it, and come out the stronger. A faith that is capable of admitting that there is nothing to support it, nothing to prove it, nothing to even indicate it needs to exist, and yet, exist it does anyway, that is a worthy gift to God. That is the faith Job had, when he said (and I paraphrase) "As the morning light hardens the clay to a seal, so does conflict turned a common belief to strong faith". I can have nothing but respect for a faith that has endured the true test of knowledge and come out stronger; I can have nothing but contempt for a faith that has shielded itself with ignorance.

[+Link of Hyrule]

The "mark" will be on the right hand or forehead.

Easy to avoid then. Request for the implant to be put in the left hand. Case solved

edit: sorry, Riyeh made a similar response, hadn't read it when I posted this

Edited February 22, 2012 by Paranoid Android

[einfopedia]

the chip is the better thought...

[Paracelse]

So, Seeker you believe that the SSN is the mark? I think numbering systems for identification are a forerunner to the mark but not the mark itself. For one thing it is to be global and not all countries use such a system. But with technology today it is now possible to assign a unique and secure biometric id for every person on the planet. India is in the middle of digitally photographing and fingerprinting 1.2 billion citizens. China is embarked on a similar scheme. I think the technology will have good acceptable uses but that it will be turned against persons of faith in Christ in the last days. And I think it cannot be a case of being mistaken by the believer. It will have to be a clear choice that is made with foreknowledge. It will be a choice to accept the AC as God.

It's already done in some countries of EU, France has already passed the law that only the "City Halls" will have the right to take pictures for ID's the fingerprinting is already in place.

Very comfortable. Why is it so difficult for you to grasp(or accept) that there are folks in the world who have what you'd call blind faith? It seems to offend something in your nature. That's not my intent by posting my beliefs. You discount anything as prophecy unless it meets your criteria of happening at a specific time/place. Assuming you believe in any prophecy (which I doubt) Jeremiah predicted the end of Israel about 40 years before the Babylonians conquered it. He didn't give a date. But it happened just as he said. He also predicted the diaspora in Babylon would last 70 years which was precisely correct. Before you waste both our time by refuting the importance of this - I SURRENDER!

It gets old trying to explain myself and prove every statement I make about my opinions and beliefs. If others here think I'm not worth the time to discuss things with then they can ignore me or excoriate me. I'm just here like everyone else - to enjoy the company and the discussions.

I've recently chosen to "ignore" a couple of members here who seem to make it a hobby to follow me from thread to thread so they can explain to me what a dimwit I am. I understand that my arguments are often weak by the standards used here but I do the best I can. I'm neither a PhD nor a debate champion. I finally took the extreme step of ignoring them because it was obvious we would probably never agree on anything and it was a waste of my time reading the thinly veiled insults. Nothing productive there...

And I did not say "it may not actually be a mark" just that the chip may not be THE mark. I fully believe that an identifier will be used at some point future to segregate believers from the rest of humanity. Why do I believe this? Because it was written in a text that I consider to be the utterance of a Creator God. If this makes me an idiot in your eyes - so be it.

OK I'm going to Bugarach on December 21 th of this year

[Left-Field]

The bible says that will be the case with the mark of the beast. Something in your right hand or forehead without which you can't buy or sell.

There is no way I would allow any organization to plant something in my body, or stamp some kind of mark on it.

For religious reasons or not, it will be a sad day when / if people ever allow such a thing to be done to themselves and others.

[karmakazi]

There is no way I would allow any organization to plant something in my body, or stamp some kind of mark on it.

For religious reasons or not, it will be a sad day when / if people ever allow such a thing to be done to themselves and others.

I agree... it would be capitalism gone off the deep end.

[Rlyeh]

I agree... it would be capitalism gone off the deep end.

May not have anything to do with capitalism. I can think of many better reasons for tagging the population.

[Mr Walker]

The mark of the beast has nothing to do with physical marks. And so it wouldnt bother me. I already have a locater and identifier implant which carries all my health details, can be used to gain access to dances/rage parties , allows me to make money transfers like eftpos, and tels my wife where i am at all times. It gains me access to my place of work and can be used to track me if I am kidnapped. When i want to buy something i just wave my hand under the scanner and it debits the cost of the item from my account.

Only kidding but these all exist and are being used. In some parliaments and other estabishments around the world you already have to have an implant to be able to enter the secure areas. And certainly i could get a health /identity one, with a tracking device, installed in australia. My dog already has one. Really. The vet reads it to access health data and identify the animal, and to do the bills electronically.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Mr Walker

[Paracelse]

I agree... it would be capitalism gone off the deep end.

Can I tell you a secret: true capitalism has never existed, only Oligarchies. In a true capitalist society car cies and banks dont get help, they fall on their asses and other open that won't the same mistakes:

[markdohle]

Governments will always find ways to control their people. In the near future this will be a mote question since I think chips will be implanted at birth. The problem, when this happens, the goverment can implement policies and if someone does not want to follow them,wll, then their chip will be deactiviated. So no buying or selling. Getting the chip is not the real questions, is what would you do if the govermment had policies that went against your beliefs, would you refuse or go along with it. Like someone said above, we already are in the control of the government in ways we dont really think about. For instance, our credit cards could be shut down at any time, accounts frozen etc.

peace

mark

[karmakazi]

May not have anything to do with capitalism. I can think of many better reasons for tagging the population.

True, I was thinking in the terms of the thread overall that it would be required to buy or sell, but yeah there are lots of other reasons and methods for achieving the same effects.

Can I tell you a secret: true capitalism has never existed, only Oligarchies. In a true capitalist society car cies and banks dont get help, they fall on their asses and other open that won't the same mistakes:

I know, no type of government system can exist in a pure form because of the human factor. Which is why both true socialism and true democracy haven't been achieved or sustained in any countries.

[Paracelse]

I know, no type of government system can exist in a pure form because of the human factor. Which is why both true socialism and true democracy haven't been achieved or sustained in any countries.

True socialism would imply bringing the entire population to the lowest common denominator and wouldn't work even in a perfect world.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Paracelse

[WoIverine]

I wouldn't take one. Wouldn't starve either. I'd eat other people if my survival was on the line. Everything becomes fair game at that point.

But then again, I might take one, if it was not a physical one, and only required a DNA sample to be given. Each person has different DNA, we probably won't even need physical ID markers, simply breathe on a scanner, and everything you need is right there.

Also, anything and everything in every form is capable of being hacked to some extent, nothing is ever 100% secure. The rise of quantum computing and AI will take the human factor (the imperfection) out of the encryption equation eventually, when that happens, be afraid.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Spid3rCyd3

[Leonardo]

The bible says that will be the case with the mark of the beast. Something in your right hand or forehead without which you can't buy or sell.

Why would God refuse to save someone simply because they wished to eat while alive?

The whole premise about "the mark" seems absurd to me, that placing a person in a situation where they have no choice means they forsake what they believe? It casts God as an idiot, and a rather unfeeling one at that.

Although that could be said of other passages in the bible, also.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Leonardo

[Gromdor]

With the growth of the internet and applications such as google earth and what not, I predict that we will soon have a virtual informational world that people could access at any time. Basically hold up the equivalent of a cell phone to a cat on the street or a car or a telephone pole and being able to pull up information on it. As for the buying of food and getting a job, I can see legislation passed to that effect under the pretense of stopping illegal immigration. A national ID card based off your social security number in order to get a job or shop basically. In Brazil and other countries, you don't just sign for a visa transaction, you also do a thumb scan. I could see that coming to the US in order to help identity theft. Those are just three of many plausible ideas that come to my mind on what could come to pass that would be socially acceptable.

[Mr Walker]

True socialism would imply bringing the entire population to the lowest common denominator and wouldn't work even in a perfect world.

While i apprecaite and tend to this pov myself, i also think we tend to accept it unquestioningly.

Given education and a well organised social dystem why should socialism not RAISE the common denominator. What it would do would be to reduce the extremes of wealth and poverty in a country. And many countries, like australia, already achieve this through a mix of capitalism and socialism.

Thus we dont have many people in true poverty. However, we still have extreme diferences in wealth I am worth about half a million dollars in assets and earn nearly $100000 a year in income and investments, but i am only in the middle range of income/assets in australia i know people who have assets of less than 10000 total (mainly their car and household contents) and an income of less than 10000 a year yet can still live comfortably because of govt policies like free health care, child allowances, rent and services concessions, and free education.

Socialism can raise the common denominator, by averaging the extremes of wealth and poverty in a country, but it wont work if it eliminates the ability of people to grow wealth and capital. That is more a characteristic of communism than socialism.

[Mr Walker]

My understanding is that, using established interpretations of biblical symbologies, the forehead represents the mind, and the hand represents ones deeds. Thus, the mark of the beast represents how we think and act. The bible goes on to describe how people's thoughts and actions will illustrate whether they are marked by the beast, or not.

Thus, for example, people wont be physically prevented from buying and seling by a mark, but their conscience and beliefs might prevent them from doing so, if that contravened gods laws or their faith.

Many people thus fear a "world order" which will establish laws that people of faith CANNOT obey, without being marked by the beast. But it is the obedience to those laws which marks them, not the other way around.

[pallidin]

If it hasn't been said before, the suggested "mark" is to provide for a means of personal "authentication" especially with regard to anything financial. With identity theft at an all-time high ruining people's lives some of it makes sense. But, I'm still against it, and anyone is welcome to rape my poverty stricken identity.