the god theory

[The Pharaoh]

"who is god" , "do we need a god?" , "is god real or is it the fruit of our imagination?"

these questions and many more echoed my mind since the day i knew my place in the universe and understood my existence.

and now am 20 years old and its been almost 10 years since the first time this questions came to my mind , and i still ask myself them everyday .

before civilizations began humans were language-less creatures and thus we lacked the ability to start one but overtime We have developed somehow a sort of communication method that after many time it became today's "language" ,(( every nation have its own ))"i put that in brackets for later explanation" , and after language we humans started building societies and then it was the first time "religion" made its "debut" .

and here's my theory why religion/god is needed to start a proper civilization ,

first :

- kings and emperors and pharaohs etc,.. claimed that they were gods or sons and daughters of gods for more power and control over their own nation " so it was sort of a controlling method for mass population "

second:

- it gave people reason to live and to start a bigger civilization ,and gave less fortunate people "poor people" ,and others a reason to obey the RULES because if they don't "the god/s" will punish them in life and "AFTERLIFE" which will bring us to my third point

third:

- we always become afraid of what we don't know and the "fear of discontinuity" aka death ,so this is where "afterlife" came from ,( if u obeyed the RULES ,u shall go to (heavin) and if u don't you will spend the eternity in (hell) so it was again a control method with merits and demerits (if u do what i want u to do i will "REWARD" you with great pleasures ) but if u don't ,well no need to say because everyone know how it goes in every religion ,but if u don't well here some of the punishment ( u will suffer in the eternal hellfire for ever ).

"if they believed in our god they're with us ,and if they don't then they're our enemy" ,the nature of the animal inside us humans ,the violence like a group of chimps banishing the "not related" others ,and my prove that it not just religion look at racism ,sexism ,etc... if you're not like me then you're my enemy

i feel bad and sorry for us everyday because other people kill eachother in the name of religion , leaders now use religion to conquer other countries like they did in iraq and afghanistan under the cape of freedom but with a blood stained dagger ,all that for more Oil and land and they use religion to justify terrorism same goes for both sides arabs and non arabs for what we all call freedom.

(( every nation have its own )) as i mentioned earlier but what about nations with more than one religion? ,well they still use the smaller religion for agendas to disturb the bigger one and then control the whole population .

but do we really need a god now?

-god was a reasonable thing 5000 plus years ago when the earth was flat and it was the center of the universe

but do we really still need a god now? no not us ,but our leaders need us to still believe in god ,cause most people wont work or do anything "BY THE BOOK" or "LAW ABIDING" why?? simple because there's no such thing as afterlife ,so "when u die its not worthy because will THERE'S NOTHING AFTER IT!!! u just die like the apple that felt from the tree ,like that tree our ancestors cut 3000 years ago and burn to keep them warm " that what most of people think eventually ,well thats what i felt after i became an atheist ,it was shocking to me as a little kid that everything i knew about god was wrong so i started researching other religions ,christianity ,budhism ,etc...but they all are the same ..then i grow up and after a while i accepted myself and the world around me and someday a thought hit my mind like a lightning ,( we cant leave religion because we are just selfish ) most of people wont help others if there's no REWARD at the end (afterlife) ,ever heard of the "bystander effect?" well here's it in a nutshell "source : wikipedia"

(( The bystander effect or Genovese syndrome is a social psychological phenomenon that refers to cases where individuals do not offer any means of help in an emergency situation to the victim when other people are present. The probability of help has in the past been thought to be inversely related to the number of bystanders; in other words, the greater the number of bystanders, the less likely it is that any one of them will help. The mere presence of other bystanders greatly decreases intervention. This happens because as the number of bystanders increases, any given bystander is less likely to interpret the incident as a problem, and less likely to assume responsibility for taking action.))

because simply we just don't give a flying **** at first

but i do believe in the good inside us "the father who love his kids without the need of religion ,and the mother who wake up at 5:30 am to see if her kid is okay ,the friend who stand by his friend when he needed him/her " the unconditioned love

but that doesn't mean we don't have a dark side "i'll spare you from the examples"

so here's the bottomline of the god theory "man created god to make civilization" but now after the technology we have and our expanding realization of the universe and ourselves do we still need one?

[keven3]

... "man created god to make civilization" but now after the technology we have and our expanding realization of the universe and ourselves do we still need one?

When I outstretched my arms to God, the presence of the Holy Spirit filled my soul. Forever I was changed. I didn't fabricate the idea of God. When I reached out to him, he was there. He is not a simple construct of the mind. He is real. The more I use technology, the more I realize how little technology is in comparison to universal love, peace, and joy.

The more we know about the universe, the more we know that we don't know anything. We need God regardless of technology. Without God, there is limited meaning in the world. With God, there is meaning.

Keven

[Karyotype]

I personally believe that this

" kings and emperors and pharaohs etc,.. claimed that they were gods or sons and daughters of gods for more power and control over their own nation " so it was sort of a controlling method for mass population "

sums up the answer to your question. We don't need God and never did, but the folks that want to be in power surely do need for us to need God.

JMHO

[J. K.]

I personally believe that this

" kings and emperors and pharaohs etc,.. claimed that they were gods or sons and daughters of gods for more power and control over their own nation " so it was sort of a controlling method for mass population "

sums up the answer to your question. We don't need God and never did, but the folks that want to be in power surely do need for us to need God.

JMHO

Regarding the first king to suggest he was divine: what do you think his definition of a god be?

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

the god theory

Hello The Pharoah:

Yes, that's exactly what it is -- theory. No one on earth has ever seen God(?); otherwise, that person wouldn't be here. Hearing 'sounds' are definitely not a sign that you are with God(?); in fact, it's far away from the truth. Everybody has the right to label himself "god" with a small "g," but it's only obvious why a person would do that. Everybody wants to be special: "Aren't you special?!"

["do we need a god?"] It doesn't hurt to think and believe it, I suppose. Truth is, we will all get the chance to be with God(?), effort or no effort. Actually, effort gets in the way, more often than not. The question is: why are you back in this world? Surely, there is a profound reason for that...

Another truth: this world matrix runs perfectly without God(?). It's designed to do exactly that. It has checks and balances and humans don't live long enough to really affect anything, unless "the powers that be" allow it. Don't you think the ever unfolding 'story' of your life is enough to keep you busy?? Just to stay on top of it all (in the "now") is a feat in itself -- surely you would agree?

God(?) is real; otherwise people wouldn't be talking about It, to begin with. It's that itch you can't seem to scratch (out).

Again, the perfect question which fits well with this thread: why are we back in this world?

Edited February 23, 2012 by braveone2u

[The Pharaoh]

exactly its my "theory" about god but i also respect your opinion and others that replied on my post ,but the thing is this theory seems more rational to me when i think about it ,cause the whole idea that an entity that rules the universe and he or she loves you but he'll burn your soul in the eternal hell while you scream in agony "BUT HE STILL LOVE YOU" is not really convincing to me ,..i believe in good but when i see the world today i just don't see that there's a god that could allow whats happening ,children dieing for no reason others killed under the flag of religions i'm not complaining cause you can't complain to something that its not there

if there's a thing i want it would be a proof that god really exist

i really really really want to believe in god if there's one because before i become an athiest i was a regular prayer that devoted most of his day to god ,instead of playing with my friends i used to pray and the thing i was happy inside but after a while i noticed that happiness is a sort of an illusion ,like the kind of illusion you get when you watch a movie and u put yourself in the protagonist's shoes and pretend your him ,its fun and we all do it but its not the real deal its just a movie a dream inside you ,same with religion i don't get it with noah's ark's story cause i can't imagine putting two of each animals on a ship "its mentioned in the bible and quran and torah " and many stories like that , i know the first thing religious people would say is ( you can't prove god u just feel his divine soul inside you ) ,do we really feel god?? or do we just make that feeling inside our mind just to give ourselves a reason to continue without thinking that after we die there's nothing? just like a daily-social pain killer. i hope i made my point and i don't mean to offend your beliefs or anything ,love and respect

[The Pharaoh]

Regarding the first king to suggest he was divine: what do you think his definition of a god be?

an immortal live giver and world "CONTROLLER" that if u follow his rules he will pay you with great rewards

[The Pharaoh]

We don't need God and never did, but the folks that want to be in power surely do need for us to need God.

JMHO

exactly

[Imaginarynumber1]

God(?) is real; otherwise people wouldn't be talking about It, to begin with. It's that itch you can't seem to scratch (out).

So then unicorns, fairies, elves, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, Eskimos, griffins, the Loch Ness Monster, etc are all real to, right? Otherwise people wouldn't be taking about them.

[QueenyQueen457]

Humans are so irritating, Such a primitive way of thinking, And a primitive language.

That's what my guide said to me when I was on the Dream Plane. Or dream dimension.

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

So then unicorns, fairies, elves, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, Eskimos, griffins, the Loch Ness Monster, etc are all real to, right? Otherwise people wouldn't be taking about them.

Cute, but not very, it's actually a tedious reply.

Edited February 24, 2012 by braveone2u

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

exactly its my "theory" about god but i also respect your opinion and others that replied on my post ,but the thing is this theory seems more rational to me when i think about it ,cause the whole idea that an entity that rules the universe and he or she loves you but he'll burn your soul in the eternal hell while you scream in agony "BUT HE STILL LOVE YOU" is not really convincing to me ,..i believe in good but when i see the world today i just don't see that there's a god that could allow whats happening ,children dieing for no reason others killed under the flag of religions i'm not complaining cause you can't complain to something that its not there

if there's a thing i want it would be a proof that god really exist

i really really really want to believe in god if there's one because before i become an athiest i was a regular prayer that devoted most of his day to god ,instead of playing with my friends i used to pray and the thing i was happy inside but after a while i noticed that happiness is a sort of an illusion ,like the kind of illusion you get when you watch a movie and u put yourself in the protagonist's shoes and pretend your him ,its fun and we all do it but its not the real deal its just a movie a dream inside you ,same with religion i don't get it with noah's ark's story cause i can't imagine putting two of each animals on a ship "its mentioned in the bible and quran and torah " and many stories like that , i know the first thing religious people would say is ( you can't prove god u just feel his divine soul inside you ) ,do we really feel god?? or do we just make that feeling inside our mind just to give ourselves a reason to continue without thinking that after we die there's nothing? just like a daily-social pain killer. i hope i made my point and i don't mean to offend your beliefs or anything ,love and respect

[cause the whole idea that an entity that rules the universe and he or she loves you but he'll burn your soul in the eternal hell while you scream in agony "BUT HE STILL LOVE YOU" is not really convincing to me] I'm absolutely with you on that.

God(?) is not in this world.

[when i see the world today i just don't see that there's a god that could allow whats happening ,children dieing for no reason others killed under the flag of religions] Some mystics would say that it's because of a domino effect. We don't live long enough to see the whole picture. On the other hand, what are you, The Pharaoh, going to do about it? Would you add to the 'noise'? Or, would you work on yourself, be a good human being, to lessen the negativity of the ever unfolding stories of your life? The wonderful thing about living in the now is that you will realize you have a choice, always. That choice is sanctuary; this may or may not make sense to you at this moment...

Ah, your mind has distracted you. Have you ever heard of the chakra system? It has no banner of religion. Everyone has it. You may want to look in to that. Prayer is a form of quieting the mind, enough to get you centered. There are other ways, more potent ways. Don't let your mind distract you. Your heart chakra is open, but your mind-stuff is its slayer. Use your brilliant mind to develop your metaphysical body.

Edited February 24, 2012 by braveone2u

[MysteryX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bncrybslVW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6wnCUvl2tc

[Lion6969]

Why do you who do not believe in god, believe that god is all love, unconditional love. Why do you assume this, god does love us, but if he has attributes like the all just, or the judge, the sustainer, creator etc. Maybe if a god is not just all love but all just as well, then those who deserve what they due for any evil, get what they deserve, that would be just. ultimate justice etc.

Most of you expect accountability for your actions in this short lived life, expect justice, mercy, forgiveness, redemption etc, but deny god to be the ultimate provider of these and that we will be accountable for our actions. You want accountability here but can't reconcile why god would hold you accountable, or even judge you and punish you.

[shadowhive]

Why do you who do not believe in god, believe that god is all love, unconditional love. Why do you assume this, god does love us, but if he has attributes like the all just, or the judge, the sustainer, creator etc. Maybe if a god is not just all love but all just as well, then those who deserve what they due for any evil, get what they deserve, that would be just. ultimate justice etc.

Most of you expect accountability for your actions in this short lived life, expect justice, mercy, forgiveness, redemption etc, but deny god to be the ultimate provider of these and that we will be accountable for our actions. You want accountability here but can't reconcile why god would hold you accountable, or even judge you and punish you.

See there's something slightly flawed in that point.

Yes most of us expect some form of justice in this life, but we expect it to be fair. For instance a murder and someone that drink drives both did something wrong, but they both get different and appropriate forms of justice. The punishment (as they say) fits the crime. In life there are many things that we can do wrong, but the appropriate form of justice for each thing 'fits the crime'. There's not an answer that covers everything. ie execution for someone that had a parking ticket would be unacceptable, but for someone that committed genocide would be considered acceptable (likewise giving someone a fine for genocide would be equally unacceptable).

The problem with 'god's justice' is that the concept of fitting the punishment to the crime is alien. There's only one punishment (eternal death) and almost anything can be deemed worthy of it (even things that wouldn't be deemed as worthy of such treatment like disbelief in god is treated as such). God's supposed to be this supremely wise and superior entity, but has the black/white morality of a child. THAT is why people have a problem with 'god's justice' lion: that it's not justice at all.

Edited February 24, 2012 by shadowhive

[Lion6969]

See there's something slightly flawed in that point.

Yes most of us expect some form of justice in this life, but we expect it to be fair. For instance a murder and someone that drink drives both did something wrong, but they both get different and appropriate forms of justice. The punishment (as they say) fits the crime. In life there are many things that we can do wrong, but the appropriate form of justice for each thing 'fits the crime'. There's not an answer that covers everything. ie execution for someone that had a parking ticket would be unacceptable, but for someone that committed genocide would be considered acceptable (likewise giving someone a fine for genocide would be equally unacceptable).

Without going in depth if there is a god, then he is all powerful, all loving all just and all judging and the best of judges. Then he will judge best what your accountable for, it's very simple.

The problem with 'god's justice' is that the concept of fitting the punishment to the crime is alien. There's only one punishment (eternal death) and almost anything can be deemed worthy of it (even things that wouldn't be deemed as worthy of such treatment like disbelief in god is treated as such). God's supposed to be this supremely wise and superior entity, but has the black/white morality of a child. THAT is why people have a problem with 'god's justice' lion: that it's not justice at all.

so if a god exists, he created all, he tells us via human messengers who and what he is, and that we ought to live our lives to fulfil our purpose for creation. It's like going into exam where the examiner hands you a question paper bit in the other hand also gives you the answer sheet showing you how to pass. Now if your arrogant enough to reject that, then you have no excuse for your failure. Thus if god has provided the test (your life), then given you the intelligence to seek the answers and pass the test, if you do you return to your true home, if not your destined to goto hell, not because god loves for you to be there, but because you were arrogant to reject him and his help. That's justice, ultimate justice, the thing you hold most precious to yourself is a gift from him, if you abuse it then it's your fault, especially if you know where you could end up through such negligence, then that would be tantamount to foolishness. Obviously this is if there is a god.

As for punishments fitting crimes, in this life that's debatable. But the penalty to waste a whole life has a higher stakes.

[shadowhive]

Without going in depth if there is a god, then he is all powerful, all loving all just and all judging and the best of judges. Then he will judge best what your accountable for, it's very simple.

And yet god still has no sense that (for example) a person that committed genocide is worse than an atheist. Doesn't sound like the best judge to me.

Also doesn't sound like the best judge when he only has one punishment available to him.

so if a god exists, he created all, he tells us via human messengers who and what he is, and that we ought to live our lives to fulfil our purpose for creation. It's like going into exam where the examiner hands you a question paper bit in the other hand also gives you the answer sheet showing you how to pass. Now if your arrogant enough to reject that, then you have no excuse for your failure. Thus if god has provided the test (your life), then given you the intelligence to seek the answers and pass the test, if you do you return to your true home, if not your destined to goto hell, not because god loves for you to be there, but because you were arrogant to reject him and his help. That's justice, ultimate justice, the thing you hold most precious to yourself is a gift from him, if you abuse it then it's your fault, especially if you know where you could end up through such negligence, then that would be tantamount to foolishness. Obviously this is if there is a god.

As for punishments fitting crimes, in this life that's debatable. But the penalty to waste a whole life has a higher stakes.

Problem: we have had literally hundreds of 'human messengers' over human history, each claiming to know what god/gods want us to do. Ssome are liars, ovbviously only in it for the power. Some might not be. Some might just be saying what THEY want. So if (and it's a big if) god gave the message to even one of those messengers all we can do is just guess and hope we got the right one.

It's not arrogant to 'reject his help' when history shows (and the present does too) that there are many frauds and liars that claim to know god and use that to manipulate people.

That's a bad example. If an examiner gives you the questions and answers together then the exam is void. It it called cheating and it results in the exam being tossed away and you get nothing.

Again, that makes god seem childish. 'I give you your own intelligence... but it's best if you don't use it, follow me instead and you won't have to. All you have to do is do as your told, don't really question it and you're all set.' The my way or the high way thinking is nothing short of a dictatorship system, but because it's god that's all fine.

Why is punishment meeting the crime so debatable? It's better than having one set punishment for everything.

So you think everyone deserves to go to hell if they don't toe the line, regardless of how minor the mistake may be?

Edited February 24, 2012 by shadowhive

[Lion6969]

And yet god still has no sense that (for example) a person that committed genocide is worse than an atheist. Doesn't sound like the best judge to me.

Also doesn't sound like the best judge when he only has one punishment available to him.

It's irrespective what our finite little minds can comprehend his wisdom or judgment. My point is simple, if there is a god, perfect etc, then logically he would also be the best judge irrespective of whether you agreed with his judgement or not. Do you understand this?

As for one who commits genocide can have it easy over the atheist, how so? How do you even know? God may forgive both at the last breath when they truly acknowledge him (atheist) or repent (genocidal maniac). How god judges is not fully comprehensible, we can comprehend the essence and function of justice based on our own experience and lives, but if gods the best judge, then we cannot argue with his judgement, because we cannot fully comprehend it. To argue against gods judgement is futile if he is god then is he is the best to judge. It's really simple.

Problem: we have had literally hundreds of 'human messengers' over human history, each claiming to know what god/gods want us to do. Ssome are liars, ovbviously only in it for the power. Some might not be. Some might just be saying what THEY want. So if (and it's a big if) god gave the message to even one of those messengers all we can do is just guess and hope we got the right one.

Not guess but analyse. We have been here before and I can I say is it takes an open mind and an open heart, patience, hard work and reflection which carries implication. Go through them all to find which ate truthful, consistent. Good luck. However this will not be an excuse in the end when judgement arrives, as ignorance is not excusable. A true step to seek the truth will lead you to it and the path will open up.

It's not arrogant to 'reject his help' when history shows (and the present does too) that there are many frauds and liars that claim to know god and use that to manipulate people.

I agree there are many frauds etc, but gods given us faculties to be able to determine for ourselves. Don't accept anything from anyone as gospel, cross reference it, check it, analyse it, decide for yourself. You will still be rewarded for the intention let's say if you died before finding the truth. That's the mercy of god, just a true intention to seek the truth can lead you to home, even if you died before actually reaching the truth.

That's a bad example. If an examiner gives you the questions and answers together then the exam is void. It it called cheating and it results in the exam being tossed away and you get nothing.

Call it what ever you wish, but the example is apt because life is a test, gods given you an answer sheet too, use it or don't is down to you and cconsequence have to be accepted. The example was to illustrate how easy god is trying to make it for us.

Again, that makes god seem childish. 'I give you your own intelligence... but it's best if you don't use it, follow me instead and you won't have to. All you have to do is do as your told, don't really question it and you're all set.' The my way or the high way thinking is nothing short of a dictatorship system, but because it's god that's all fine.

No! It's like this. "here I give you life a gift, cherish and use it purposefully. If you live your accordingly to your purpose and remember your creator, you will return home. You have the choice to do as you wish, I will give you free will. Now go use the intelligence I have given you and make your choices". That's not dictatorship, that's offering you a path to success, at the same time he has given you free will to use that intelligence against that successful path or use it for that path and get home. Consequences of choices are clearly told to us, if we ignore them then that's our fault.

Why is punishment meeting the crime so debatable? It's better than having one set punishment for everything.

So you think everyone deserves to go to hell if they don't toe the line, regardless of how minor the mistake may be?

I don't want anyone to go to hell as a Muslim we are taught to spread the truth in order to help humanity dodge hell, so why would I think that. I think if gods judges anyone to go to hell then that's his judgement, he is the best of judges. However god has also told us what actions, choices, kind of lives that can lead to hell, so how to avoid is also shown, if we ignore it all then it's our fault. All religions talk of the same.

[Ahzi_Dhaka]

I think everyone needs something to hold onto, a belief in something to help them get through their days, did we invent god or did he invent us? thats something well all have the answer to sooner or later, so why worry about it? why try to shove our ideas down some other peoples throats? I know the Moon's not made of cheese, but until someone can physically prove to me otherwise I'll keep believing what I want to believe.

[shadowhive]

It's irrespective what our finite little minds can comprehend his wisdom or judgment. My point is simple, if there is a god, perfect etc, then logically he would also be the best judge irrespective of whether you agreed with his judgement or not. Do you understand this?

As for one who commits genocide can have it easy over the atheist, how so? How do you even know? God may forgive both at the last breath when they truly acknowledge him (atheist) or repent (genocidal maniac). How god judges is not fully comprehensible, we can comprehend the essence and function of justice based on our own experience and lives, but if gods the best judge, then we cannot argue with his judgement, because we cannot fully comprehend it. To argue against gods judgement is futile if he is god then is he is the best to judge. It's really simple.

Oh I understand that. What I don't comprehend is a judge that has no concept on morality. A judge that thinks everything bought before them deserves one punishment (regardless of what it may be) isn't a good judge. It's that simple.

Have it easy? No. Genocide and atheism are to completely different things. They are not treated as equal by any means, yet you're ok with a 'perfect judge' treating them as such.

Not guess but analyse. We have been here before and I can I say is it takes an open mind and an open heart, patience, hard work and reflection which carries implication. Go through them all to find which ate truthful, consistent. Good luck. However this will not be an excuse in the end when judgement arrives, as ignorance is not excusable. A true step to seek the truth will lead you to it and the path will open up.

We have, but I think it's an impotant point to bring up.

A religion that calls god a perfect judge but who also only has two options available to him (heaven and hell) sounds more questionable than truthful.

IF judgement arrives I'd want god (this supposedly perfect judge as you claim) to look at me as a person. Religion does not automatically make a person good, yet is frequently given as a 'get out of jail fee' card to get passed god (or to get god to look more favorably on you).

I agree there are many frauds etc, but gods given us faculties to be able to determine for ourselves. Don't accept anything from anyone as gospel, cross reference it, check it, analyse it, decide for yourself. You will still be rewarded for the intention let's say if you died before finding the truth. That's the mercy of god, just a true intention to seek the truth can lead you to home, even if you died before actually reaching the truth.

I don't accept anything from anyone as gospel, certainly when it pertains to god. That's why I'm so skeptical when it comes to religion. I'm not willing to buy what anyone says about god at face value, regardless of who they are or what revelations they may claim to have had.

Call it what ever you wish, but the example is apt because life is a test, gods given you an answer sheet too, use it or don't is down to you and cconsequence have to be accepted. The example was to illustrate how easy god is trying to make it for us.

It's not that simple though is it? As said above, there are many religions and many gods (or versions of the same god). So to make your exam example more accurate: You're given an exam and also 50 sheets with answers on. All claim to be the 100% accurate one. You have to find which it is and you only have a short time to do so. Now that is closer to the truth.

No! It's like this. "here I give you life a gift, cherish and use it purposefully. If you live your accordingly to your purpose and remember your creator, you will return home. You have the choice to do as you wish, I will give you free will. Now go use the intelligence I have given you and make your choices". That's not dictatorship, that's offering you a path to success, at the same time he has given you free will to use that intelligence against that successful path or use it for that path and get home. Consequences of choices are clearly told to us, if we ignore them then that's our fault.

'If you live according to you purpose' sounds an awful lot like 'if you give up your free will to do what I want'.

That's 'offering a path to sucess and punishing anyone that does not follow to the letter'... much like a dictatorship.

If a ruler of a country said to it's citizens 'do as I say or die' no one would have a problem decrying him. God says do'do as I say or die' (in a nicer way of course to make it palatable) you jump through whatever hoops he says to do.

I don't want anyone to go to hell as a Muslim we are taught to spread the truth in order to help humanity dodge hell, so why would I think that. I think if gods judges anyone to go to hell then that's his judgement, he is the best of judges. However god has also told us what actions, choices, kind of lives that can lead to hell, so how to avoid is also shown, if we ignore it all then it's our fault. All religions talk of the same.

Again, there's the problem again. 'All religions talk of the same' but they don't do they? Each religion is different and has a different moral code (with a different list of things that lead to death/hell). Again all say they have the most accurate list. Of course there's alot of crossovers on the list (murder being the most obvious) but the lists aren't 100% the same.

On top of that each religion has sepeate factions within itself, all with slight differences but again all claiming to be 'the truth'. For example Christianity has Catholics, protestants, mormons, adventists etc all of which believe in the same basic belief but each one has differences from the others.

I try and be a good person, but what you (and others) constantly claim is that goodness means nothing to god. Religious belief matters more than goodness, kindness, compassion etc to god andm, to be honest, that disturbs me. Personally I'd rather go to hell than serve a god with such a messed up sense of priorities.

If god is the perfect judge you claim him to be, than religion shouldn't come into the judgement process at all. What a person does is far more important than what they believe.

Edited February 25, 2012 by shadowhive

[Lion6969]

Oh I understand that. What I don't comprehend is a judge that has no concept on morality. A judge that thinks everything bought before them deserves one punishment (regardless of what it may be) isn't a good judge. It's that simple.

What morality, if morality exists then it can only do so with a god. If there is a god then our morality is in anchored in god as he is the only thing that makes morality objective, like you are doing above. You question gods morality based on your own belief which is that morality is subjective and not objective, then on what grounds do you have a higher moral authority than a god who is perfect and best in everything from morals to judgement.

Have it easy? No. Genocide and atheism are to completely different things. They are not treated as equal by any means, yet you're ok with a 'perfect judge' treating them as such.

You obviously did not read what I said. I never said they are the same or equal. I clearly said both will be judged by god, but also both are open to his mercy till the past breath. How god judges between them or what they get is upto him, if a god exists logically he would be the best judge, the most just etc etc etc. So either way your argument hold no logical validity.

We have, but I think it's an impotant point to bring up.

A religion that calls god a perfect judge but who also only has two options available to him (heaven and hell) sounds more questionable than truthful.

Hell or heaven are your abodes once you live this short life. Hell will have varying punishments apt for the crime or sin or disbelief. However a perfect judge decides to judge or exact punishment is down to him, if he is perfect and a god then he can't get it wrong can he?

IF judgement arrives I'd want god (this supposedly perfect judge as you claim) to look at me as a person. Religion does not automatically make a person good, yet is frequently given as a 'get out of jail fee' card to get passed god (or to get god to look more favorably on you).

You keep applying human qualities in god, if one exists he knows you better than yourself, hence all knowing. Thus why would he need to look at you as a person, who says he won't, he might even say, did x y z truths not reach you, if they did, then what you gonna say "look at me as a person". Ofcourse not, neither will you be truthful and say I did recurve x y and z but I did not agree with it or with you, now please let me into heaven, don't think that's gonna work. At the end of the day how god judges us is irrelevant, if he exists he is perfect and the best of judges so he don't get things wrong.

I don't accept anything from anyone as gospel, certainly when it pertains to god. That's why I'm so skeptical when it comes to religion. I'm not willing to buy what anyone says about god at face value, regardless of who they are or what revelations they may claim to have had.

That's good, but after many conversations with you I have noticed you reflect, but with no implications or effect. That's quite common with most. You see if you studied logic and philosophy you could apply other standards of knowledge and realise how to determine false gods from descriptions of a true god. For example, if someone is telling you that they are god, or god is in them, you realise immediately the logical and philosophical flaws in such a notion. It then becomes easier, until you reach a basic concept of god, ie singular, the cause, unique, metaphysical, etc, basic definition. Then see who or what relate to such a description, in it's entirety.

It's not that simple though is it? As said above, there are many religions and many gods (or versions of the same god). So to make your exam example more accurate: You're given an exam and also 50 sheets with answers on. All claim to be the 100% accurate one. You have to find which it is and you only have a short time to do so. Now that is closer to the truth.

That sounds like multiple choice

It's not like that all. You have an exam, but before any exam you will revise (research), then apply your revision. However the examiner has provided all the answers as well. Even if they were 100% accurate, you would not know any better if you had not studied or revised for the test. With the latter you can determine yeah these answers are right, make sense, logical, accurate based on my revision (research etc).

However I do understand your sentiment it's seems daunting. I had the same feeling early days, but soon as you truly get in to it, you will start dismissing most as hog wash ie Demi gods, man gods, trinities, etc etc.

'If you live according to you purpose' sounds an awful lot like 'if you give up your free will to do what I want'.

That's 'offering a path to sucess and punishing anyone that does not follow to the letter'... much like a dictatorship.

How is living and fulfilling your purpose negate free will? You choose to fulfil the purpose or not, the choice means you have free will. So your free will is not given up, your rebellion is the result of excercising your free will.

If a ruler of a country said to it's citizens 'do as I say or die' no one would have a problem decrying him. God says do'do as I say or die' (in a nicer way of course to make it palatable) you jump through whatever hoops he says to do.

that's not the same. Firstly it's god asking you the one who gave u breath and life, not a man like me and you. Secondly we will all die, so god is not asking or demand anything he simply states the paths you can take and the consequences of your choices. You make the choices and he does not force you.

Again, there's the problem again. 'All religions talk of the same' but they don't do they? Each religion is different and has a different moral code (with a different list of things that lead to death/hell). Again all say they have the most accurate list. Of course there's alot of crossovers on the list (murder being the most obvious) but the lists aren't 100% the same.

Core teachings of all these faiths are identical, worship one god, remember him and show gratitude, live a righteous life etc etc etc. There are few differences but most of them have more similarities. That's because the original source was the same, yeah over time alot of them corrupted or lost, but even then within them there are truths which are consistent with each other (meaning different faiths).

On top of that each religion has sepeate factions within itself, all with slight differences but again all claiming to be 'the truth'. For example Christianity has Catholics, protestants, mormons, adventists etc all of which believe in the same basic belief but each one has differences from the others.

True, factions a created by men, the ones you describe as power hungry and those who manipulate religion a control tool. Most factions are easy to see through. Your example above is true of Christianity and other faiths too. This usually happens when free interpretation is applied and self created truths.

I try and be a good person, but what you (and others) constantly claim is that goodness means nothing to god. Religious belief matters more than goodness, kindness, compassion etc to god andm, to be honest, that disturbs me. Personally I'd rather go to hell than serve a god with such a messed up sense of priorities.

What are you being good for? For yourself, those around you etc? Why? When in your eyes goodness and badness are subjective like morality. So what's the purpose to be morally upright? Why should you care? Empathy, but why? For who? It's subjective, so what value has your goodness or morals got without god? I will say it again, you probably believe there is a god but don't like him, you try and act with higher morality when you claim it's merely subjective. Then authority do you have to crticise god after you simply reject him based on a foolish notion that your morally upright than god is…it's ironic and illogical my good friend.

If god is the perfect judge you claim him to be, than religion shouldn't come into the judgement process at all. What a person does is far more important than what they believe.

actions and beliefs are important one can lead to the other and vica versa.

[shadowhive]

What morality, if morality exists then it can only do so with a god. If there is a god then our morality is in anchored in god as he is the only thing that makes morality objective, like you are doing above. You question gods morality based on your own belief which is that morality is subjective and not objective, then on what grounds do you have a higher moral authority than a god who is perfect and best in everything from morals to judgement.

That's not what I'm getting it (and no, I don't think of myself as higher than god).

What I'm getting at is yes, there are good and bad things, however somthings are worse than others (just as some things are better than others). I'd have thought that was obvious.

What is at fault here is that god doesn't seem to see things that way. Things are good or baad and they all have the same value. That's what I find flawed, that a supposedly perfect judge can't tell that one thing is worse than another.

You obviously did not read what I said. I never said they are the same or equal. I clearly said both will be judged by god, but also both are open to his mercy till the past breath. How god judges between them or what they get is upto him, if a god exists logically he would be the best judge, the most just etc etc etc. So either way your argument hold no logical validity.

I find that concept of mercy to be rather odd, mainly because it's another demonstration of how belief matters more to god than deed.

Hell or heaven are your abodes once you live this short life. Hell will have varying punishments apt for the crime or sin or disbelief. However a perfect judge decides to judge or exact punishment is down to him, if he is perfect and a god then he can't get it wrong can he?

Again, why should disbelief be punished automatically? Doesn't sound like this 'just' god is too just to me. Sounds like he's more vain.

That's a matter of opinion.

You keep applying human qualities in god, if one exists he knows you better than yourself, hence all knowing. Thus why would he need to look at you as a person, who says he won't, he might even say, did x y z truths not reach you, if they did, then what you gonna say "look at me as a person". Ofcourse not, neither will you be truthful and say I did recurve x y and z but I did not agree with it or with you, now please let me into heaven, don't think that's gonna work. At the end of the day how god judges us is irrelevant, if he exists he is perfect and the best of judges so he don't get things wrong.

You keep applying human qualities to god (that he is just, moral, loving), why is it ok for you to do so, yet wrong for me to?

If he is all knowing then he'd know if such things wouldn't have reached me wouldn't he? The curius thing hee is, you keep saying he'd judge people, which does require looking at people as they are. (By which I mean looking at their actions and thoughts, not just saying 'oh Lion is a Muslim, he gets in!'.)

That's good, but after many conversations with you I have noticed you reflect, but with no implications or effect. That's quite common with most. You see if you studied logic and philosophy you could apply other standards of knowledge and realise how to determine false gods from descriptions of a true god. For example, if someone is telling you that they are god, or god is in them, you realise immediately the logical and philosophical flaws in such a notion. It then becomes easier, until you reach a basic concept of god, ie singular, the cause, unique, metaphysical, etc, basic definition. Then see who or what relate to such a description, in it's entirety.

Ok, let me break things down for you as I see them. I see religion and you know what I see? I see manmade systems that manipulate the vulnerable and use fear (the fear of hell) as a system of control. I don't see that as a good thing or something that we as humans need.

Now as to god, I think it's obvious (and you can see this from past discussionss) that we have invented gods. Greek, Roman, Egyptian etc are all obviously inventions. I do not see the current worshiped deities as anything more than just an evolution of that, all man made as means of control.

However, that's not to say I rule out a god existing, I just don't see enough evidence that such an entity cares about us. I have seen a lot of evidence that people WANT god to exist, but that's not proof.

That sounds like multiple choice

It's not like that all. You have an exam, but before any exam you will revise (research), then apply your revision. However the examiner has provided all the answers as well. Even if they were 100% accurate, you would not know any better if you had not studied or revised for the test. With the latter you can determine yeah these answers are right, make sense, logical, accurate based on my revision (research etc).

However I do understand your sentiment it's seems daunting. I had the same feeling early days, but soon as you truly get in to it, you will start dismissing most as hog wash ie Demi gods, man gods, trinities, etc etc.

It sounds like multiple choice because it is. After all you have to decide which group of people that claim to have god's word are truthful.

If the answers are presented to you like that, then it makes your revision (and the test itself) utterly devoid of meaning as I said earlier.

It is daunting but you know what? I would rather live my life as best I can, trying to be as good a person as I can, rather than trying to please a potentially man made entity that may or may not exist.

How is living and fulfilling your purpose negate free will? You choose to fulfil the purpose or not, the choice means you have free will. So your free will is not given up, your rebellion is the result of excercising your free will.

Because it's something claiming to know your purpose. Is it god telling you what that purpose is? No, it's a holy scripture. We've been through this before, but religious texts don't equal god.

that's not the same. Firstly it's god asking you the one who gave u breath and life, not a man like me and you. Secondly we will all die, so god is not asking or demand anything he simply states the paths you can take and the consequences of your choices. You make the choices and he does not force you.

Is it really god that's asking you, or is it a text written by man? Again, two different things.

Secondly, yes we all die, but god's dangling heaven and hell as the two only options afterward and hell always comes off as a threat. You famously say religion is about 'no compulsion' but the fear of hell certainly qualifies as compulsion from where I'm sitting! (As does the promise of heaven.)

Core teachings of all these faiths are identical, worship one god, remember him and show gratitude, live a righteous life etc etc etc. There are few differences but most of them have more similarities. That's because the original source was the same, yeah over time alot of them corrupted or lost, but even then within them there are truths which are consistent with each other (meaning different faiths).

'Worship one god' etc again, makes god sound awfully vain. Why does god need the ego boost? Some have shared qualities but again, it's all about control and the best way to control people is stick god on a set of rules. Also some rules just make common sense.

True, factions a created by men, the ones you describe as power hungry and those who manipulate religion a control tool. Most factions are easy to see through. Your example above is true of Christianity and other faiths too. This usually happens when free interpretation is applied and self created truths.

Far too many people have done that to make any religion viable to me. Religious texts are far too open to interpretation which leads to me to question if a 'perfect' god would really put his name to any of them.

What are you being good for? For yourself, those around you etc? Why? When in your eyes goodness and badness are subjective like morality. So what's the purpose to be morally upright? Why should you care? Empathy, but why? For who? It's subjective, so what value has your goodness or morals got without god? I will say it again, you probably believe there is a god but don't like him, you try and act with higher morality when you claim it's merely subjective. Then authority do you have to crticise god after you simply reject him based on a foolish notion that your morally upright than god is…it's ironic and illogical my good friend.

For those around me. You know, people I can see, touch, interact with and care about. I'm not being good to please an entity to get a fast track to heaven. I'm not god because god tells me to be.

Strangely me doing good for the people around me now solely for them is considered bad to you. Whereas you doing good to get brownie points with god so you can get to heaven (in other wrds for a selfish reason) is considered better.

I explained what I meant about goodness and badness. Simply put some bad things are worse than others (ie stabbing someone is worse than lying to someone). Some good things are better than others (ie caring for someone who is ill is better than giving a homeless person some spare change).

I don't reject god, I reject man made gods. There's a difference.

actions and beliefs are important one can lead to the other and vica versa.

My point was simply being a person of x religion shouldn't get you better thought of than anyone else.

Edited February 25, 2012 by shadowhive

[Lion6969]

Shadow get back to you soon pal