A slice of Spanish History...

[keithisco]

After years of Legal debate over ownership of the Gold Bullion coins salvaged from the "Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes" in International waters, the coins have finally been returned to Spain... read more:

A haul of gold and silver coins salvaged from a sunken Spanish galleon are heading from the US to Spain after five years of legal ownership wrangles.

US firm Odyssey Marine Exploration found 17 tons of the coins in a wreck off Portugal's Atlantic coast in 2007.

At the time, the treasure was estimated to be worth $500m (£316m). But a US federal judge recently ordered Odyssey to give Spain access to the treasure, the last in a series of legal defeats for the salvage firm.

Courtesy BBC

[Englishgent]

Sorry, but I disagree. if a boat sinks in international waters, then it no longer belongs to that country. Specially when we are talking about a spanish galleon hundreds of years ago. I find it ridiculous that a country can even consider ownership after all that time. However, the court of law would appear to have a differing opinion

edit. Just a thought, but that 'Spanish' gold probably came originally from the Incas and other ancient peoples of foreign lands. I dont think Spain has any rich gold ore deposits. So, they stole it in the first place!!!

Edited February 25, 2012 by Englishgent

[keithisco]

Sorry, but I disagree. if a boat sinks in international waters, then it no longer belongs to that country. Specially when we are talking about a spanish galleon hundreds of years ago. I find it ridiculous that a country can even consider ownership after all that time. However, the court of law would appear to have a differing opinion

edit. Just a thought, but that 'Spanish' gold probably came originally from the Incas and other ancient peoples of foreign lands. I dont think Spain has any rich gold ore deposits. So, they stole it in the first place!!!

That is Maritime Law for you..... It would be nice to think that Spain compensated the company for its recovery - and probably did, but dont know for sure.

For information: Spain has one of the largest Gold and precious metal ouputs in Europe, with new mines (Gold) opening in the north of the country this year. and, completely unprovable, but I suspect that most of the Inca / Aztec gold found its way to France, UK, and USA through State Sponsored Piracy (Privateering)

[+and-then]

I always thought international salvage laws were pretty simple. If it's in international waters and you find and retrieve it it belongs to the finder. Apparently not so. Just a few weeks ago a salvage operation found $3 billion worth of platinum off Nova Scotia, I think. Claimants are coming out of the woodwork

[Englishgent]

That is Maritime Law for you..... It would be nice to think that Spain compensated the company for its recovery - and probably did, but dont know for sure.

For information: Spain has one of the largest Gold and precious metal ouputs in Europe, with new mines (Gold) opening in the north of the country this year. and, completely unprovable, but I suspect that most of the Inca / Aztec gold found its way to France, UK, and USA through State Sponsored Piracy (Privateering)

Well, once the Spanish had stolen it from the Incas/Aztecs, and they were on the high seas, they were fair game for us British pirates

From all accounts we were pretty good at it too

[keithisco]

Well, once the Spanish had stolen it from the Incas/Aztecs, and they were on the high seas, they were fair game for us British pirates

From all accounts we were pretty good at it too

Today it would be called "State Sponsored Terrorism"...

[questionmark]

Today it would be called "State Sponsored Terrorism"...

But it is highly unscientific to try to measure the acts of 1500 with today's view of the world.

[keithisco]

But it is highly unscientific to try to measure the acts of 1500 with today's view of the world.

Unscientific?... yes, agreed. But the corollary is any Nation funding and supporting (for the purpose of the State) the capture and sequestration of goods on the High Seas would today be a "Rogue Stae" and sponsor of State Terrorism on the High Seas.

[Mr Right Wing]

Sorry, but I disagree. if a boat sinks in international waters, then it no longer belongs to that country. Specially when we are talking about a spanish galleon hundreds of years ago. I find it ridiculous that a country can even consider ownership after all that time. However, the court of law would appear to have a differing opinion

edit. Just a thought, but that 'Spanish' gold probably came originally from the Incas and other ancient peoples of foreign lands. I dont think Spain has any rich gold ore deposits. So, they stole it in the first place!!!

Spain has some large gold mines.

Maritime Law (if I remember correctly) treats states different from companies. As Spain has lodged the claim it has been awarded to them by a Court of Law. If the Incas lodged a claim they would win but their state no longer exists.

I hope they were kind enough to share the rewards with the salvaging company that recovered the gold.

[keithisco]

Spain has some large gold mines.

Maritime Law (if I remember correctly) treats states different from companies. As Spain has lodged the claim it has been awarded to them by a Court of Law. If the Incas lodged a claim they would win but their state no longer exists.

I hope they were kind enough to share the rewards with the salvaging company that recovered the gold.

...You never quite understand posts on UM do you? There is no suggestion that this is Inca / Aztec gold bullion. It fact it is Coinage of the Spanish Realm, and considering that Gold mining in Spain produced vastely greater amounts of the metal it is entirely probable that the Gold was of Spanish origen. Maritime Law (specifically Salvage Law) makes no distinction between Private Enterprise and Stae funded salvage.

This is Spanish cargo, as already declared in the respective Courts of law

The Salvage company are entitled to a proportion of the value of recovered cargo.

Edited February 27, 2012 by keithisco

[zebra99]

"Despite an ongoing battle with high unemployment and debt concerns, Spain's Culture Ministry has ruled out the idea of the treasure being sold to pay off the country's national debt, the Associated Press news agency reported.

Instead the coins will be exhibited in Spanish museums."

Yeah!...don't create jobs with it.There's plenty of money from us other EEC mugs to do that.

[keithisco]

"Despite an ongoing battle with high unemployment and debt concerns, Spain's Culture Ministry has ruled out the idea of the treasure being sold to pay off the country's national debt, the Associated Press news agency reported.

Instead the coins will be exhibited in Spanish museums."

Yeah!...don't create jobs with it.There's plenty of money from us other EEC mugs to do that.

Selling off the treasure would actually not ease Spanish Debt at all, the treasure is nowhere near sufficient for that.

Which nation would sell off its History to achieve a short - term gain? The recession was brought about by errors in the Banking System, by greed. Spain is moving forward by realising the enormous natural resources that it has.. yes, times are difficult now , that is a very short term consequence of over - confidence in its past.

Spain will exit the recession much stronger financially, it will become a major European Economy based on saleble goods and commodities that are home grown. reliance on Banking will be under the closest Governance to ensure that this will not happen again.

How much money has Spain asked for from other EU countries? In particular, how much money has been requested from the UK? Nada, Nothing, Zilch.

The UK is in a much more precarious position than Spain.

Edited February 27, 2012 by keithisco

[smurf0852]

"Despite an ongoing battle with high unemployment and debt concerns, Spain's Culture Ministry has ruled out the idea of the treasure being sold to pay off the country's national debt, the Associated Press news agency reported.

Instead the coins will be exhibited in Spanish museums."

Yeah!...don't create jobs with it.There's plenty of money from us other EEC mugs to do that.

yep that ststment says everything there is to know about the mentality of a lot of british people .we are told day after day by newspapers with a reading age of 6 that europe is out to take all our money and give us nothing apart from laws we hate .but if we left them we would all be rich and all the worlds whoes would end.the problem is its all total and utter lies.

[questionmark]

"Despite an ongoing battle with high unemployment and debt concerns, Spain's Culture Ministry has ruled out the idea of the treasure being sold to pay off the country's national debt, the Associated Press news agency reported.

Instead the coins will be exhibited in Spanish museums."

Yeah!...don't create jobs with it.There's plenty of money from us other EEC mugs to do that.

How 'bout selling the crown jewels and Tate modern to pay for the British debt?

[Englishgent]

I would just like to make a small apology for thinking that Spain did not have any gold mines. I stand corrected

[keithisco]

I would just like to make a small apology for thinking that Spain did not have any gold mines. I stand corrected

Unnecesary Sir!

I live in a land considered by many British to just be Manuel (from Fawlty Towers - loved that series), cheap beer (provided by ex-pat Bars) and Karaoke (also ex-pat bars). It is difficult to explain that there is so much more, but most people aren'y interested - go with a British Invented stereotype (that is reflected in Mexican stereotyping in the USA), and everyone is happy.

Truth be told - many, many Brits are selling up (at knock - down prices) and the Spanish are buying up again. perhaps it is their way to reclaim their Coast. I look forward to the day when Benidorm (I live just outside now) offers Tapas with every beer, and the drunken youth of a socially impoverished nation (UK) no longer threatens the Streets.

The Spanish are already flocking back to my home-town, and the Guardia Civil will allow them to enjoy the area without yobbish idiots causing fear.

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

Unnecesary Sir!

I live in a land considered by many British to just be Manuel (from Fawlty Towers - loved that series), cheap beer (provided by ex-pat Bars) and Karaoke (also ex-pat bars). It is difficult to explain that there is so much more, but most people aren'y interested - go with a British Invented stereotype (that is reflected in Mexican stereotyping in the USA), and everyone is happy.

Truth be told - many, many Brits are selling up (at knock - down prices) and the Spanish are buying up again. perhaps it is their way to reclaim their Coast. I look forward to the day when Benidorm (I live just outside now) offers Tapas with every beer, and the drunken youth of a socially impoverished nation (UK) no longer threatens the Streets.

The Spanish are already flocking back to my home-town, and the Guardia Civil will allow them to enjoy the area without yobbish idiots causing fear.

Does that go for the Spanish youth as well or have they had their knives taken off them now,The last time i was in Spain it always seemed to be the Spanish that were the agressors and the Brits were the one's that got Arrested.

Edited February 28, 2012 by shaddow134

[keithisco]

Does that go for the Spanish youth as well or have they had their knives taken off them now,The last time i was in Spain it always seemed to be the Spanish that were the agressors and the Brits were the one's that got Arrested.

I dont know the circumstances of your confrontation so cannot comment.

Spanish youth appear to be less "Hyper" but that is just my impression. The british youth, coming here (where I live) in large groups, seem to think that they can do anything they want, irrespective of any normal codes of conduct. They go and buy knives here as some kind of Talisman, take them out and many do get arrested, and they "cry" over this because they think they can behave in Spain the same way that they behave in any main population centre in the UK.

Drunkeness on the street is not tolerated, abusive behaviour is not tolerated, fighting is certainly not tolerated (you WILL get arrested for this) , and the Guardia Civil operate a Zero Tolerance for this behaviour - irrespective of nationality. This is for the greater good of the Resident Population (we pay their wages afterall).

The unfortunate truth is that alcohol is very cheap here (1 euro a pint) , and most adolescent Brit groups are not able to handle the temptation to drink to excess. But... this is no excuse in Spanish Police eyes.

There is no shame in being polite and respectful, getting a taxi to get back to your hotel instead of staggering along in the Streets when you have drunk too much.

Edited February 28, 2012 by keithisco

[Mr Right Wing]

Unnecesary Sir!

I live in a land considered by many British to just be Manuel (from Fawlty Towers - loved that series), cheap beer (provided by ex-pat Bars) and Karaoke (also ex-pat bars). It is difficult to explain that there is so much more, but most people aren'y interested - go with a British Invented stereotype (that is reflected in Mexican stereotyping in the USA), and everyone is happy.

Truth be told - many, many Brits are selling up (at knock - down prices) and the Spanish are buying up again. perhaps it is their way to reclaim their Coast. I look forward to the day when Benidorm (I live just outside now) offers Tapas with every beer, and the drunken youth of a socially impoverished nation (UK) no longer threatens the Streets.

The Spanish are already flocking back to my home-town, and the Guardia Civil will allow them to enjoy the area without yobbish idiots causing fear.

Spain is our favourite holiday destination, your women are fit and Manuel is your most famous citizen.

We like Spain even if your football team is better than ours. Sure we have problems with alcoholic youths but look on the brightside. We stopped Napoleon turning you into a French colony now didnt we?

Sometimes I think the world hates my little island. If it wasnt for us you wouldnt have tea and cricket. Now what kind of world would it be without them?

[keithisco]

Spain is our favourite holiday destination, your women are fit and Manuel is your most famous citizen.

Sometimes I think the world hates my little island. If it wasnt for us you wouldnt have tea and cricket. Now what kind of world would it be without them?

To that I have no adequate response

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

I dont know the circumstances of your confrontation so cannot comment.

Spanish youth appear to be less "Hyper" but that is just my impression. The british youth, coming here (where I live) in large groups, seem to think that they can do anything they want, irrespective of any normal codes of conduct. They go and buy knives here as some kind of Talisman, take them out and many do get arrested, and they "cry" over this because they think they can behave in Spain the same way that they behave in any main population centre in the UK.

Drunkeness on the street is not tolerated, abusive behaviour is not tolerated, fighting is certainly not tolerated (you WILL get arrested for this) , and the Guardia Civil operate a Zero Tolerance for this behaviour - irrespective of nationality. This is for the greater good of the Resident Population (we pay their wages afterall).

The unfortunate truth is that alcohol is very cheap here (1 euro a pint) , and most adolescent Brit groups are not able to handle the temptation to drink to excess. But... this is no excuse in Spanish Police eyes.

There is no shame in being polite and respectful, getting a taxi to get back to your hotel instead of staggering along in the Streets when you have drunk too much.

Agreed ,It was just an observation and i have no problems with Spain and yes your national football team are very good.

[keithisco]

Agreed ,It was just an observation and i have no problems with Spain and yes your national football team are very good.

To b honest, 99% of the Brits that come here are really here to enjoy themselves - have a good time, and wouldn't dream of causing trouble. Some of the organised parties of single sex groups are something else though (Hen Parties, Stag Nights).

In fact, the Brits have saved this region from economic collapse and as a result are seen in a very favourable light. The Russian tourists are "unusual" - no disrespect, but basically "weird".

Anecdotally: Iker Casillas (Real Madrid's goalkeeper) was my neighbour when I was living in Boadilla del Monte(Madrid) - lovely bloke, no airs or graces - great sense of humour- good with the barbecue... I think this is why I love Spain so much, the people (most anyway) keep that element of approachability, just need to try and speak a tiny bit of the language, and they will offer their daughter in marriage

[zebra99]

How 'bout selling the crown jewels and Tate modern to pay for the British debt?

Damn good idea...and the Queens stamp collection and Royal palaces full of antiquities.Why

should the poor have to suffer while they continue their extravagances.We could return the Elgin marbles and Gibralta while we're at it.

[keithisco]

Damn good idea...and the Queens stamp collection and Royal palaces full of antiquities.Why

should the poor have to suffer while they continue their extravagances.We could return the Elgin marbles and Gibralta while we're at it.

Selling the family jewels for a short - term gain is never a good idea.

BTW - love the pictures of the Border Collie! We have one as well and he is absolutely loopy and too intelligent by far