Church erects billboard saying

[libstaK]

They would've been just as correct as to say "Getting out of bed and brushing your hair cures cancer", while leaving out the real treatment.

That is the same level of brain dead reasoning demonstrated by this church.

Maybe I didn't explain my point well enough, I was speaking of my earlier comment being the same level of reasoning;

Someone prays to Jesus while receiving treatment, and gets cured -> Conclusion: Jesus cured cancer.

Someone brushes their hair, watches TV, sleeps, etc; while receiving treatment, and gets cured -> Conclusion: brushing hair, watching TV, sleeping, etc, cured cancer.

Ah - so glad you put that in context - yes, people can come to mistaken conclusions (case in point), however I don't think it is a fair analogy all in all.

Faith (real faith) is often something that has grown through knowledge of the tenets of that faith intimately, without comprehending all its facets (and that would require putting the faith into full practice) we cannot automatically assume they are brain dead - they used their brains quite liberally to arrive at the place that has them state "Jesus cures Cancer".

What we do not know is all the pieces of belief or knowledge that brought them to that definitive position, they are behaving as a church behaves typically. I do not think they are overstepping the mark given that their belief requires them to advertise the benefits of being "saved" by Jesus - it is at the very foundation of believing as they do.

Edit to add:

They have qualified their position with the proviso that treatment continue - which means they do not expect their members to test their faith.

What is actually "irritating" is the claims of the cures in their membership - 6 of them with no details that can be verified except the most generalised info on these people - even the billboard only has "six white lines" to signify the six cures - yeah that is pushing it IMO.

Edited February 29, 2012 by libstaK

[I Am Not Resisting]

To be fair they do state that all these people were in no way advised to stop taking their medications or treatments - which is the absolute correct position to take given their faith predicates that miracles can occur, no point arguing against that possibility - it is a tenet of faith for them.

If it is an act of God, it will work just fine with whatever medications/treatments are taking place - if it is not, then the only harm done is dissappointment which is usually accepted by the faithful as a sign that it is just their time aka: "it's in God's hands" as far as they are concerned.

The negative aspect - the glass half empty type mentality can do the opposite and make a person quite sick and overcome by their predicament.

The power of positive thinking can affect us physically - I do believe that, it is a positive position for those of the secular or non spiritual mindset also IMO - believing in your capacity to overcome adversity does not have to be attached to faith or belief in God/s.

I also believe that there are going to be those whose capacity to practice authentic spiritual faith is going to be strong enough to assist in the management and recovery from diseases/physical impairments. Whether it is actually attributable to God, Jesus (name your deity) or a capacity of the mind to affect the functions of the physical body remains to be seen but you will find it is highly irrelevant to the practicer of the faith themselves - the results will suit their belief system just fine in their view.

What I do object to very strongly is those who claim to be faith healers and then claim that the patient must believe in them absolutely. These types will demand that to believe "absolutely" the patient is required to "put their money where their mouth is" and give up all other treatment while accepting and believing that what the faith healer is stating is the truth instead - this is the human ego gone wild and anyone confronted with any variety of this at all needs to know they are being played by an aspect of the human personality that thinks far too much of itself, takes a ridiculous amount for granted in relation to their relationship with God and their knowledge of his "Will"- these types are just shy of sociopathic serial killers IMO because they will lay the blame for the death directly on the head of the patient and not themselves for leading the poor soul away from treatment that may well have worked and been the perfect means for "Gods Will" to enact itself in the first instance.

I wasn't neccesarily implying that the church was telling those with cancer to stop any medications but if someone who is gullible enough to read the billboard and stop treatment or medication on their own just because the church only put up a claim that Jesus cures cancer. I don't know if that makes any sense or not, lol.

[Beckys_Mom]

If they are healed why are they still taking medication?

As it was said because they would end up dead

It is clear all of it is misleading

For those that like to think Jesus can and has cured cancer victims in the past who were Christians....Let me tell you all this....

If God who is all knowing and knows exactly what each of our lives will be and ho our lives will end... he knows it all from the start..As so many Christians will say our lives are all part of Gods plan.......

If our lives are in fact part of Gods plan and he already has it all planned out for us, all set on motion....then Isn't praying to be cured going against Gods plan?

Aren't doctors and nurses who go all out to treat and cure people going against Gods plan?

Heck if you want to dig further, Jesus went against Gods plan when he is said to have healed others in his day...

And if any of you like to jump to defend that and say - "Ohh but see God does not interfere.".. Then you are seriously contradicting yourselves .

.Because you like to say he interferes when prayers get answered..

You like to say he interferes if you have had personal godly experiences...

.You like to show support for any miracle you read up on and think YES Gods work.!

You like to say God controls all he is the creator.. and you also like to add in how all mighty he is, that includes how your lives will pan out and end BEFORE they begin...

So if it is true and God does know and can interfere he knows exactly how you will live and end up.. then praying for miracles and trying to heal others is going against Gods plan...

Edited February 29, 2012 by Beckys_Mom

[libstaK]

I wasn't neccesarily implying that the church was telling those with cancer to stop any medications but if someone who is gullible enough to read the billboard and stop treatment or medication on their own just because the church only put up a claim that Jesus cures cancer. I don't know if that makes any sense or not, lol.

Yes it does make sense, there are gullible people who will do that - we can only hope if they turned to this church that they would set them straight and discourage it. There are definitely "cultish" type denominations that would tell their members to ignore medicine - those are the real problem I think.

Edited February 29, 2012 by libstaK

[I Am Not Resisting]

Yes it does make sense, there are gullible people who will do that - we can only hope if they turned to this church that they would set them straight and discourage it. There are definitely "cultish" type denominations that would tell their members to ignore medicine - those are the real problem I think.

I agree, and I have seen news stories of such unbelievable accounts. It's especially disheartening when parents make that decision for their children.

[Paracelse]

Since you’re so fond of anecdotal evidence you should read the link that Rlyeh posted.

here it is again: What's the Harm?

Although I disagree with all the "religious" aspect of healing, I do believe in Faith healing. It doesn't have to be faith in a god or another just Faith in yourself. There are some proven records as Mr Walker mentionned. Also you could read: The intention experiment by Lynne McTaggart.

[Mr Walker]

I agree, and I have seen news stories of such unbelievable accounts. It's especially disheartening when parents make that decision for their children.

In general, parents make all decisions for their children. That is their job. Who else has the right to make decisions for children ? The state?

Of course a parent's right to make decisions for its child is limited in a variety of forms by what ever state laws overide parental authority. Some states put very little limitation on parents rights Others a great deal.

But unless you see all childrena as basically the wards of a state, then it is their parents who are rsponsible, and have authority, for all decisions in their world.

Hopefully parents have more wisdom amd experiential learning; and comparative references than their children. If they are over 20 for females, and 30 for males, then they will have fully developed brains, and be at least capable of makingg better decisons, than humans below that age whose brains are physically incomplete, and thus lacking many of the areas required for logical and rational thought, eg for being able to predict and forsee consequences of an action.

I do have some sympathy for your view. I actualy believe that all parents should be compelled by their state to have their children fully vaccinated and immunised. Many parents refuse to do this, and not for religious reasons. Unfortunately, such decisions dont just affect their children. Other innocent children, whose parents would vaccinate them as soon as possible, die or are crippled, when a disease spreads via a "critical mass" of unimmunised children, and affects those too young to be immunised.

Here a parent's choice affects not just their own children, but those of many other people. Yet very few modern states compel a full range of vaccinations for children, or even impose sanctions on parents who won't vaccinate their children..

Edited March 2, 2012 by Mr Walker

[karmakazi]

As it was said because they would end up dead

It is clear all of it is misleading

For those that like to think Jesus can and has cured cancer victims in the past who were Christians....Let me tell you all this....

If God who is all knowing and knows exactly what each of our lives will be and ho our lives will end... he knows it all from the start..As so many Christians will say our lives are all part of Gods plan.......

If our lives are in fact part of Gods plan and he already has it all planned out for us, all set on motion....then Isn't praying to be cured going against Gods plan?

Aren't doctors and nurses who go all out to treat and cure people going against Gods plan?

Heck if you want to dig further, Jesus went against Gods plan when he is said to have healed others in his day...

And if any of you like to jump to defend that and say - "Ohh but see God does not interfere.".. Then you are seriously contradicting yourselves .

.Because you like to say he interferes when prayers get answered..

You like to say he interferes if you have had personal godly experiences...

.You like to show support for any miracle you read up on and think YES Gods work.!

You like to say God controls all he is the creator.. and you also like to add in how all mighty he is, that includes how your lives will pan out and end BEFORE they begin...

So if it is true and God does know and can interfere he knows exactly how you will live and end up.. then praying for miracles and trying to heal others is going against Gods plan...

Yup. The story changes when the situation changes, they'll say whatever is convenient to make their belief look good.

[Toadie]

Law suit waiting to happen

Edited March 2, 2012 by Toadie

[Beckys_Mom]

Yup. The story changes when the situation changes, they'll say whatever is convenient to make their belief look good.

Yes... If it were a football game, the players wouldn't have a clue where to score their goals, due to the goal posts moving every so often

[Fluffybunny]

I think the half million plus Americans who died just last yearof cancer would beg to differ.

[Beckys_Mom]

I think the half million plus Americans who died just last yearof cancer would beg to differ.

True, but it would not suprprise me if some ignorant git tried to suggest - Well this is because they didn't use Jesus...sigh I have heard that before

Edited March 2, 2012 by Beckys_Mom

[Fluffybunny]

True, but it would not suprprise me if some ignorant git tried to suggest - Well this is because they didn't use Jesus...sigh I have heard that before

I wonder what percentage of dying people pray for health?

[Beckys_Mom]

I wonder what percentage of dying people pray for health?

AHA exactly..l I'd say a good strong percentage... But see.. You still get the ignorant one or two that will claim they just didnt do it right...

I have heard this in real life... Heck I have had it said to me a few times.. even when I lost my child.. some arrogant religious person said, - That is because you never asked Jesus for help... I swear must have went purple with rage reading it.. I had to take myself away before I said something I would regret.. It was said to me because I do not follow the ' correct version of God'

I tell ya, there are some ignorant folks...some who will allow their mouths to shoot off before giving their brains time to catch up..

Edited March 2, 2012 by Beckys_Mom

[Fluffybunny]

I have heard this in real life... Heck I have had it said to me a few times.. even when I lost my child.. some arrogant religious person said, - That is because you never asked Jesus for help... I swear must have went purple with rage reading it.. I had to take myself away before I said something I would regret.. It was said to me because I do not follow the ' correct version of God'

That is just horrible. How thoughtless.

[Beckys_Mom]

That is just horrible. How thoughtless.

Yup, but sadly this planet has a lot of thoughtless people.. You only have to look at the news headlines on IE - Natural disasters that strike, and watch some minister or pastor come on to say X amount of people died in the Tsunami because of sinners or a gay pride parade..( I saw this for real on Sky News..) ...Sometimes when you see something like that coming from one or two people here and there, you tend to sit in awe !!

Edited March 2, 2012 by Beckys_Mom

[Mr Walker]

I wonder what percentage of dying people pray for health?

I wonder what percentage of those people actually have complete faith/ confidence/certainty, that their prayers will be answered, and how many are just hoping, or a just having an each way bet.

How many people are actually close enough to god, for god to reach over and touch them? And how many people are truly open to being touched by god, and everything that would entail in their life from that point forward?

Do they think god can just touch them /heal them, and they can continue on as before?

Mostly, healing by god requires a two way connection between god and the recipient. If that connection does not exist then healing and all other forms of connection such as empoerment the removal of pain fear anger lonliness grief etc., are made more difficult and less likely (but not impossible)

[Beckys_Mom]

I wonder what percentage of those people actually have complete faith/ confidence/certainty, that their prayers will be answered, and how many are just hoping, or a just having an each way bet.

How many people are actually close enough to god, for god to reach over and touch them?

This Fluffybunny, is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about, when I said - Some will suggest you just may not be praying right or close enough to God.. They will assume this because they want to believe that God will look out for a selected bunch.

.. So if you are praying and not saved in the end.. then you are not close enough to God as they are... It is very what's the word? arrogant.. but that's how so few are... I call it arrogance because it is based on pure assumption and how a person can think they are close enough and they get saved and they know others don't so they tell themselves maybe people are not trying harder or not close enough..

Many Christians and other followers have prayed and they to felt closer to God.. But they still had to face it... Even those that claim to be touched by God.. Actually they all do.. It has happened ...It is presumptuous to think you are one of the very few that is saved and your are closer than they are all because they do not get saved in the end

Assuming what you think is right.. Is not always right..

Edited March 3, 2012 by Beckys_Mom

[Toadie]

There so many factors when it comes to health. The person may have survived due to their up bringing, healthy eating habits, strong will, positive nature, may not be someone who worries or stresses, they where in good shape, fit, everything else inside their bodies was functioning at full capacity

[Mr Walker]

This Fluffybunny, is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about, when I said - Some will suggest you just may not be praying right or close enough to God.. They will assume this because they want to believe that God will look out for a selected bunch.

.. So if you are praying and not saved in the end.. then you are not close enough to God as they are... It is very what's the word? arrogant.. but that's how so few are... I call it arrogance because it is based on pure assumption and how a person can think they are close enough and they get saved and they know others don't so they tell themselves maybe people are not trying harder or not close enough..

Many Christians and other followers have prayed and they to felt closer to God.. But they still had to face it... Even those that claim to be touched by God.. Actually they all do.. It has happened ...It is presumptuous to think you are one of the very few that is saved and your are closer than they are all because they do not get saved in the end

Assuming what you think is right.. Is not always right..

You will note I said, "I wonder." I dont pretend to know. However, for faith to work (with or without a response from god)it has to be a particular kind of faith, perhaps without room for any doubt.

A person that close to god WILL feel answered by god, because even if god does not heal their body, he will heal their soul. It can make the difernce between dying afraid, angry, and hurting, and dying at peace, calmly, without fear or anger. Given that we have to die, I KNOW how I would prefer to die, and I KNOW god can give this form of healing to people. I know that it can also be attained, simply through faith in god, whether god physically grants it or not.

But a person has to accept this form of healing into their hearts and minds. If they can't accept it, it can't work . If they cling onto; anger, grief, pain, and suffering, then those will continue to dominate, and make the healing process harder and longer.

I do not believ in a heaven, or a hell, or any form of afterlife, so how can I presume to be saved in the way you mean.

However i KNOW that god has saved me from many things. In this life, here and now, he has saved me from death (many times)He has released me from excruciating pain, just like the most powerful drug available does. He has freed me from grief, loss, pain anger and hurt. In return for taking these away, he gives love, hope, and courage and joy. This is not belief, it is simple, experienced, knowledge.

I am human. And so, I assume that, if god can do all these things for me, he can, and will, do it for ever other human who opens themselves to god. There is no other logical assumption I can make, because I am NOT special.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Mr Walker

[Meiliken]

It can make the difernce between dying afraid, angry, and hurting, and dying at peace, calmly, without fear or anger.

I myself conquered the fear of death. If I wink into non exixtence, then nothing harmed. If I go on to a higher conciousness, then so be it. Fearing death is a meaningless endeavor. Personally I think all of humanity needs to die since mankind has no saving grace about them. But those that seek death due to some religious fantasy, are irrational, or textbook insane. Truth to tell, the day death comes for me, I will laugh in the face of it. I'll be at peace, calm, and outright humorous. Conquer your fears of death, and all fear vanishes, for what more can anything do to you than kill you.

Incidentally, BM Geri. Were you not married, I'd be on my knee giving you a ring. You're absolutely awe inspiring. I've been away from UM for a while, and you're still one of the most sincere, and logical women on here. Don't ever change

[Beckys_Mom]

You will note I said, "I wonder." I dont pretend to know. However, for faith to work (with or without a response from god)it has to be a particular kind of faith, perhaps without room for any doubt.

You will note that even if one tends to wonder and ask themselves such questions, something has made them do so.. Like those who feel they are more worthy of God and it seems God looks out for only them.. So they feel they are doing something right.. So yes they will be presumptuous enough to ask those questions and wonder..

A person that close to god WILL feel answered by god, because even if god does not heal their body,

That is up to the person that follows God.. We cannot assume who feels what

However i KNOW that god has saved me from many things. In this life, here and now, he has saved me from death (many times)He has released me from excruciating pain, just like the most powerful drug available does. He has freed me from grief, loss, pain anger and hurt. In return for taking these away, he gives love, hope, and courage and joy. This is not belief, it is simple, experienced, knowledge.

You call it knowledge because it is your own experience not anyone else's.. You speak on you own behalf and that is your right..

I am human. And so, I assume that, if god can do all these things for me, he can, and will, do it for ever other human who opens themselves to god. There is no other logical assumption I can make, because I am NOT special.

If I were to claim God does all for me all because I opened myself up.. and then I state he will only do it for those that do the same as me, then I am being too presumptuous and I am rising myself above others..

But I cannot ever do that.. I never think of myself as higher than IE Christians.. I mean who am I to do that?

What kind of person would I be if I suggest ...-For example - Well my husband is a Christian, but not me because my husband has not had my experiences, <--That would be my way of placing myself above my husband.. saying he is close but not as close as me...

What gives me that right?

Should I be presumptuous and make the assumptions to feel that is how it is?

I do not feel I can answer for everyone, nor can I ever suspect that only those that open themselves up to God will only get answered? How on earth can I make such an assumption? If I base it on how well it has worked for me, then I am being selfish and not taking into consideration that others who have dedicated their lives to God have still suffered..

Heck even the character Jesus had to suffer... and he is pegged as God... So For me to push myself above all the rest, I am pushing myself up and above Jesus himself.. I am not that arrogant.. I don't ever think I can know all .Nor am I that extra bit special........It doesn't matter why he suffered, he still did it.. So for me to say I never have to suffer because God looks out for me.. that is just arrogance on my behalf

I just accept the fact that life is what we make it... I am not higher than Christians or any other religious person on this planet...

If I see God as all powerful, then it must mean he has our lives planned out before they began and he knows the outcome.. Thee fore trying to get him to change it all for me because of a choice.. That is saying that God favours me and people like me over everyone else who follows God and even over those that do not... But see I believe God treats us all as equal.. Bad things happen and so do god, it is the natural order of life.. ...

Edited March 3, 2012 by Beckys_Mom

[Beckys_Mom]

I myself conquered the fear of death. If I wink into non exixtence, then nothing harmed. If I go on to a higher conciousness, then so be it. Fearing death is a meaningless endeavor. Personally I think all of humanity needs to die since mankind has no saving grace about them. But those that seek death due to some religious fantasy, are irrational, or textbook insane. Truth to tell, the day death comes for me, I will laugh in the face of it. I'll be at peace, calm, and outright humorous. Conquer your fears of death, and all fear vanishes, for what more can anything do to you than kill you.

I cannot ever understand how so many can look forward to death .. like the doomsday people.. I believe in living life as much as possible.. I do not fear dying either..I see no point in it.. I do however fear leaving my loved ones behind, but I know that they can and will cope..

Incidentally, BM Geri. Were you not married, I'd be on my knee giving you a ring. You're absolutely awe inspiring. I've been away from UM for a while, and you're still one of the most sincere, and logical women on here. Don't ever change

Why thank you... I try to be...

[Leonardo]

I am human. And so, I assume that, if god can do all these things for me, he can, and will, do it for ever other human who opens themselves to god. There is no other logical assumption I can make, because I am NOT special.

Any human being who believes they can pray to some deity and have their prayers answered, holds a de facto belief in their own specialness. Claiming "I am not special" only opens that person up to accusations of hypocrisy.

I accept that it is frowned upon by many religions for their adherents to promote themselves as 'special', but the fact is that is exactly what those religions [who hold to a doctrine of prayer] do promote. To avoid accusations of elitism they promote a doctrine of 'humility', and so swap elitism for hypocrisy.

[Meiliken]

I cannot ever understand how so many can look forward to death .. like the doomsday people.. I believe in living life as much as possible.. I do not fear dying either..I see no point in it.. I do however fear leaving my loved ones behind, but I know that they can and will cope..

Why thank you... I try to be...

Aye, people who seek death bewilder me. Mankind seems to be circling the drain though. I hope something presents itself to aid humanity to purify itself. All of our vices are sickening. Maybe finding life outside in the universe, so mankind wouldn't feel so alone.

You've a good heart Geri. Your family is blessed.